Custom rifles more accurate than Factory?

[zog]

I often see post-ers on this forum presume that a custom rifle, by default, will be more accurate than a factory rifle.

What are the factors or components that make the custom more accurate? Realizing this is quite an open-ended question, maybe somebody can direct me to a good article or an already-asked thread on the subject.

Actions for example - I realize custom actions are probably made slower and with more care, and should generally run smoother and cycle better, but once the cartridge is seated in the chamber, does the better action improve the repeatability of the bullet trajectory?

Barrels - It makes sense to me that a custom might have a straighter barrel, but if your loads shoot the exact same deviation every time, does a less straight barrel matter, once you've adjusted your scope to compensate?

This is a covid question - sitting here with nothing to do, so I'm using the stupid questions forum to learn more about rifles. I did do a search before asking, but nothing I found answers this.

 

[Steel head]

Well most customs use a higher quality blank with meticulous chambering work and possibly optimized reamer that not heavily worn.

Put a nice barrel in a factory receiver and they shoot awesome.

 

[DangerRanger]

Actions for example - I realize custom actions are probably made slower and with more care, and should generally run smoother and cycle better, but once the cartridge is seated in the chamber, does the better action improve the repeatability of the bullet trajectory?

but nothing I found answers this.

huge subject in general and I am not going to act like I’m an expert on it merely extremely interested...but I think people discount the importance of a properly designed ignition system. Even on customs there are huge differences in this area. It seems there is far more interest in this area in the benchrest community than in the practical precision community. I’m not sure if it will trickle down as lots of other things do, or if it’s because benchrest looks harder at raw precision and especially aggs that you don’t see/care about when shooting at plates.

It’s worth looking up imo.

 

[Newbie2020]

Someone w more experience than me said a couple days ago that part of the custom is Perhaps marginal accuracy Improvement, and partly increased smoothness and rigidity.

There’s also plenty of posts on here attesting to sub moa accuracy of a lot of factory Rifles. RPR, Seekins, Bergara, Browning, Howa, Savage, etc. So much so that one poster was disappointed with consistent 1.5” 100 yd groups from a new M70 hunting rifle with mid level hunting ammo, even though that ought to be about the expectation from a mid priced rifle with mid priced ammo.

There’s also a handful of posts on here suggesting that Remington has upped their Accuracy game, especially in their PCR.

I’ve read other experienced guys like @Steel head insist that the barrel will make or break accuracy even more than the action.

 

[zog]

EDIT - Thanks for your replies. I went to the "Bolt Action Rifles" and the "Gunsmithing" sections and, of course, found more answers than I wanted.

 

[Supersubes]

Why would you expect an item made via mass production to to match an item made with care for every detail using best quality parts?

 

[natdscott]

Depends on the factory.

Depends on the custom.

You’ve asked an unanswerable question. But hey, that’s what covid + forums are for!

 

[zog]

Why would you expect an item made via mass production to to match an item made with care for every detail using best quality parts?

I don't expect that at all. My question was not an argument against custom building.

My question was to learn more about just what are the things they can do on the rifle to actually make the custom launch a projectile more accurately? What are those details?

 

[whatsupdoc]

Well assuming the same exact barrel can be screwed on to both, can a 700 Action with only one lug making 50% contact and the other lug making 25% contact with crooked threads out shoot say a BAT action. Maybe, but then my dog licked me and gave me the you have to get out of bed look.

 

[natdscott]

The best $10,000 SR BR rig and the lowest $200 gunshow special will shoot completely equal groups of one.

 

[zog]

You’ve asked an unanswerable question. But hey, that’s what covid + forums are for!

Especially when they have a stupid questions forum. Like I said above, I found lots of answers in other sections.

I suppose a better question would just have been to ask "what factors go into a good rifle build?" One google search produces a plethora of written and video articles about that.

I still appreciate all the replies here.

 

[db2000]

Loaded question but IMO probably most of the time with the same operator.
That being said, if you reload, factory rifles can be tack drivers.
I have a 300 WBY Mag Vanguard with synthetic stock and blued barrel. This is their lowest tier rifle but guaranteed sub-MOA and comes with a 3 shot group target. I don't put much stock into 3 shot groups at 100 yrds but it was made in Japan and cost $400 at Walmart in 2003ish.
I reload for it and with RL22 80.5g and 180 gr Nosler AB or RL22 84.4g and 165 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip it will shoot 3/4 MOA all day.
A buddy has a newer $500 WBY 270 WSM Vanguard synthetic stock and stainless barrel and it shoots 0.6 MOA so...

 

[Longdistanceoperator]

Sometimes it depends on who's behind the trigger, right? ?

 

[hafejd30]

Depends on the factory.

Depends on the custom.

You’ve asked an unanswerable question. But hey, that’s what covid + forums are for!

^^^ this

With a custom your foundation is a smooth, properly built, tight tolerance action and a premium cut rifling barrel (Bartlein for example) chamber to your specific intentions (tight neck/longer throat etc). Bedded properly into a stock that you purchased or modified to fit you with your style of shooting in mind. With a trigger that breaks like glass. All assembled by someone who has a reputation for great rifles and stands behind it should you have any issues.

With factory it’s a crap shoot. And depending on the factory depends on how much of a crap shoot it is. I’ve had both Remington and savage that I’ve been completely satisfied with and some I’ve been totally disgusted with. Throwing first round or two/7+ lbs triggers from factory/only shooting 1-1.25 MOA when my goal is 1/2 MOA etc. I upgraded the barrels, triggers etc and although they shoot very well they’re not “as is” from the factory

If were comparing an AIAT to a custom than I consider the margin to be much closer.

 

[zog]

Loaded question but IMO probably most of the time with the same operator.
That being said, if you reload, factory rifles can be tack drivers.
I have a 300 WBY Mag Vanguard with synthetic stock and blued barrel. This is their lowest tier rifle but guaranteed sub-MOA and comes with a 3 shot group target. I don't put much stock into 3 shot groups at 100 yrds but it was made in Japan and cost $400 at Walmart in 2003ish.
I reload for it and with RL22 80.5g and 180 gr Nosler AB or RL22 84.4g and 165 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip it will shoot 3/4 MOA all day.
A buddy has a newer $500 WBY 270 WSM Vanguard synthetic stock and stainless barrel and it shoots 0.6 MOA so...

Excellent point.

 

[zog]

^^^ this

With a custom your foundation is a smooth, properly built, tight tolerance action and a premium cut rifling barrel (Bartlein for example) chamber to your specific intentions (tight neck/longer throat etc). Bedded properly into a stock that you purchased or modified to fit you with your style of shooting in mind. With a trigger that breaks like glass. All assembled by someone who has a reputation for great rifles and stands behind it should you have any issues.

With factory it’s a crap shoot. And depending on the factory depends on how much of a crap shoot it is. I’ve had both Remington and savage that I’ve been completely satisfied with and some I’ve been totally disgusted with. Throwing first round or two/7+ lbs triggers from factory/only shooting 1-1.25 MOA when my goal is 1/2 MOA etc. I upgraded the barrels, triggers etc and although they shoot very well they’re not “as is” from the factory

If were comparing an AIAT to a custom than I consider the margin to be much closer.

Thanks. Another good answer to my unanswerable question.

What is AIAT?

 

[Steel head]

What is AIAT?

Thor’s penis in rifle form.
accuracy International AT

 

[jaywhite97]

I’m no expert by any means but if my best group is 3” does it matter what I shoot ? Will I notice the difference between a Ruger American vs a Thompson venture ? In theory, the gun shoots better then I can right ? If my best groups are 2” @ 100 yards why spend so much money and not get something affordable learn the fundamentals? As one skills become better upgrade the rifle?

Another factor for myself personally is I don’t have a bunch of land to shoot far and no ranges close.

As my skills have gotten better I have upgraded to a bergara and once I burn the barrel I’ll replace it with an aftermarket one and get the action trued go from there

 

[goosed]

I’m no expert by any means but if my best group is 3” does it matter what I shoot ? Will I notice the difference between a Ruger American vs a Thompson venture ? In theory, the gun shoots better then I can right ? If my best groups are 2” @ 100 yards why spend so much money and not get something affordable learn the fundamentals? As one skills become better upgrade the rifle?

Another factor for myself personally is I don’t have a bunch of land to shoot far and no ranges close.

As my skills have gotten better I have upgraded to a bergara and once I burn the barrel I’ll replace it with an aftermarket one and get the action trued go from there

It's been argued both ways...

Buy the cheaper and shoot it till you can out shoot the gun vs buy the best you can afford so you know exactly where the error lies and how to improve it.

No right or wrong answer, pick whichever works best for you.

 

[DangerRanger]

This thread is a good resource talking about what is probably (one of) the most advanced Lr benchrest action in the world right now, if you’re interested in accuracy based action tech

You are being redirected...

 

[hafejd30]

Thanks. Another good answer to my unanswerable question.

What is AIAT?

Accuracy International

Your question certainly isn’t unanswerable. It’s just comes with many variables.

I’ve personally seen factory savage rifles (the Fclass/FTR model) stomp on several customs on the line. Had those shooters switched guns would the results have been the same??? We’ll never know

I own custom, factory, factory modified (savage and Remington with aftermarket barrels, triggers and chassis) and the newest the AI.

The situation or shooting discipline will heavily determine wether or not if a custom is the right choice for you.

A great post above mentions fundamentals when you involve the shooter. You can’t buy the fundamentals you get from actually getting out and pulling the trigger.

Your .5 MOA gun will not win a competition for you if your a 2.0 MOA shooter. Likewise a accomplished bench rest shooter may not be the greatest prs shooter or greatest hunter etc.

Only when you become fundamentally stable in your chosen shooting discipline will having a custom rifle begin to really make the difference. That doesn’t mean however that you can’t start off with the custom and build on your skills. Starting on a solid platform eliminates the needs to upgrade later other than a barrel here and there

Just don’t expect a shitty shooter to turn into Carlos Hathcock because he has the bigger wallet

 

[W54/XM-388]

A factory AI rifle will meet or exceed many custom rifles for accuracy.
A true custom rifle made by a master such as the ones done by TacOps are very hard to beat in the accuracy department.

However an important question is do you need a rifle that will function reliably under adverse conditions or really adverse conditions.

Also don't discount tuning the load / projectile specifically for the gun or the reverse (which is a big part of why TacOps is so accurate).
There have been folks who turned Mini-14 rifles into amazingly accurate shooters with just the right load.

A lot is going to depend on your specific desired user ergonomics. Stock fit, pull length, grip size, trigger pull and type, weight, length, balance are a lot easier to get exactly what you want when going the custom route.

In addition a custom rifle is much easier to setup for whatever "game" your shooting sport revolves around, since you can custom tailor it to have specific tweaks that make whatever competition you are in a bit easier.

So ask yourself first, what do you want this rifle for?
What are you going to do with the rifle?
Where, when, how and why will you be shooting it?

On the cheap end, there are a lot of very decent factory rifles these days in the sub $2k range that would be hard to beat without jumping up to the $4k custom range.

 

[ShadowBear]

I have never had a factory shoot anywhere as well as my customs. By the same token, I've never spent $1500+ on a factory rifle in a chassis, so I can't speak directly to that. But, the formula is pretty simple- Accuracy=cubic money

 

[99106]

I don't expect that at all. My question was not an argument against custom building.

My question was to learn more about just what are the things they can do on the rifle to actually make the custom launch a projectile more accurately? What are those details?

Zog, you should have started with this question above instead.

To your first question.....
In general terms it's assumed a custom gun will be assembled with tighter tolerances using components manufactured with higher quality control standard than a factory build. The technical term is tolerance stacking.

In reality, custom gunsmiths can build a crappy gun with grade A components and some "factory rifles" can and will outshoot custom guns. Is it the gun when this happens, maybe, maybe not depending on the 100s of variables that exist. The gun is a tool that does have physical limitations. The biggest variable being the lump of goo behind the gun pulling the trigger. If the lump of goo knows what he/she is doing it's quite possible they can shoot better groups than the gun is capable of producing. Can they do it consistently enough to justify upgrading their tool? They have to make that determination.

To your "real question" above....
Bed the action, recrown the muzzle, tune the trigger, change the trigger, weight or style, replace a shot out barrel, cut a custom chamber based on a specific bullet, cut a chamber to minimum or "tighter than SAAMI specs, cut a chamber for wildcat non-production cartridge, "true" up the mating surfaces "barrel to action / bolt face, recoil lugs, bolt locking lugs), set torque the action screws to correct specs, paint your gun in the latest Gucciflage camp pattern and the list goes on.

As others pointed out you can get "factory" rifles that are built taking the above into account. Is it going to be a $249 Savage Axis or Ruger American, definitely not. That goes back to the other comments, what's the purpose, where's it going to be used, how's it going to be used, how often, what caliber etc...

 

[zog]

Excellent answer, all of it - thank you 99106!

 

[db2000]

Loaded question but IMO probably most of the time with the same operator.
That being said, if you reload, factory rifles can be tack drivers.
I have a 300 WBY Mag Vanguard with synthetic stock and blued barrel. This is their lowest tier rifle but guaranteed sub-MOA and comes with a 3 shot group target. I don't put much stock into 3 shot groups at 100 yrds but it was made in Japan and cost $400 at Walmart in 2003ish.
I reload for it and with RL22 80.5g and 180 gr Nosler AB or RL22 84.4g and 165 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip it will shoot 3/4 MOA all day.
A buddy has a newer $500 WBY 270 WSM Vanguard synthetic stock and stainless barrel and it shoots 0.6 MOA so...

Just reiterating my earlier opinion. This is my Savage Ashbury Precision Ordinance .308 stock rifle 24" barrel. I bought it on sale for $599 from Bridgeport Equipment in Marieta, OH a few months ago. No modifications to this stock rifle. I shot this 5 rd group at 100 yds three days ago using a 6-24x50 Nikon Black FX1000 scope loaded with 42.2gr of H4895 and SMK 175 gr bullet. I've repeated this result several times with the same load.

 

[striped1]

A good higher end production rifle can get you 90-95% of what you get from a full custom just like a corvette will get you 90-95% of what a McClaren will get you. You chase diminishing margins of returns be it in fit, finish, weight, materials, etc., and that costs money.
If you have a production Bergara .22 that gets you .44 groups at 50 yards is it worth it to you and are you good enough to step up to a Vudoo that may take you to .33? It will cost you 3x as much to shave .11".

I have custom tastes with a Bergara budget and most of the time I am ok with that.

 

[Moose]

If you pay big bucks to have a custom rifle built and it shoots no better then a factory rifle talk to the gunsmith.That is of course that your shooting skills are up to par with the custom build.

 

[Lowlight]

You have to put "accuracy" into context

By accuracy do you mean, group size at 100 with X ammunition

there are other overall factors that go into a rifle's quality that goes beyond group size.

Take a Tikka, super-accurate rifle at 100 yards. With factory ammo, if you are not shooting .5 MOA groups right out of the gate it's probably you doing it wrong. But their barrels are often shorter and slower than most others. So even though I can get 1/2" groups at 100, will that translate to 1000 yards with the MV being so low?

Consider a Ruger RPR, can be very accurate, but it's a rattle trap, very loose, very clunky, everything screams production rifle. That is another consideration. Or like a Savage, every Savage owner considers it one of the most accurate factory rifles yet, gunsmiths avoid them and resale value is low. Nothing about a Savage cries quality, but there are plenty of examples of accuracy. (New Savage not withstanding)

I love a Tikka but I swap the barrels immediately, toss them despite the fact they are "accurate".

Context matters, and goes beyond a measured group size.

 

[StraightShooter77]

Someone w more experience than me said a couple days ago that part of the custom is Perhaps marginal accuracy Improvement, and partly increased smoothness and rigidity.

There’s also plenty of posts on here attesting to sub moa accuracy of a lot of factory Rifles. RPR, Seekins, Bergara, Browning, Howa, Savage, etc. So much so that one poster was disappointed with consistent 1.5” 100 yd groups from a new M70 hunting rifle with mid level hunting ammo, even though that ought to be about the expectation from a mid priced rifle with mid priced ammo.

There’s also a handful of posts on here suggesting that Remington has upped their Accuracy game, especially in their PCR.

I’ve read other experienced guys like @Steel head insist that the barrel will make or break accuracy even more than the action.

I kind of agreed with Steelhead @Steel head . A sub-par action with a great barrel can still shoot laser beams

Shoot Straight!

StraightShooter77

 

[tacops1]

This is so subjective ... factory vs custom and even custom vs custom.... Custom exceeds factory for sure but ... custom vs Custom is hilarious at times

Example I have a surgeon factory built custom rifle shoots under 1/4 “ at 100 in the zeros insane gun a freak of nature of a rifle

My buddy wanted the same gun so he bought all the parts and had a very reputable builder assemble it to save $900 and guess what he’s lucky to get 3/8” at 100 so I leave ya with this... research your parts your builders your bank account and your needs for groups /performance and what ammo you need to use to achieve same .....

PS now is 3/8 good sure but I don’t settle doesn’t impress me on bolt guns

 

[fmillik]

My Sako 85 shoots 1/2 MOA out of its factory barrel. I haven’t found an action that I find to operate better, factory or custom.

 

[Dthomas3523]

QC and QC standards will typically dictate factory offerings. *Most* of the time custom smiths with be on top of their QC pretty well.

For factory guns it can be as simple as how long tooling is allowed to be used before replacing. Some will push their tools to the bitter end. Some will replace them well before that.

The ones that don’t replace them as often will have batches of barrels and such at the end of tool life that aren’t as good.

Then there is the actual QC. Bob the factory QC guy’s name isn’t going to shit if it’s Friday and he didn’t feel like checking something as well or he didn’t feel like replacing the tooling until Monday. There goes another day’s worth of possibly sketchy stuff. The saying “did you get a Monday barrel or a Friday barrel” is real.

But the custom smith who’s name is directly associated with the work is much less likely to have a Friday rifle.

So, your factories like AI who have higher standards across the board will perform better overall. You also can’t get an AI for $800 either. So cost vs QC and such is also a factor.

 

[ManUtdManiac]

I don't think there's a lot of accuracy variance in the actions. It's down to the barrel and the quality of the reamer used by the smith and whether they use a CNC or not and how they barrel the action. I'm getting an Origin Action in a MPA chassis but it's PVA who's doing the barrelling and reaming of the barrel for a 6.5CM. That's where the accuracy is going to come from. Factory (unless higher end) won't give that task the level of attention I'll get from PVA. Heck I think PVA make their own reamers (might be wrong, dunno...).

I bought into the voodoo of it all a while ago, spent money on a rifle that took over two years and I was glad for it because I thought it had to be that way, until i actually 'built' a rifle with a friend who went on to open his own gunsmith business. That rifle was more reliable and accurate than other much more expensive custom rifles. By accurate I mean from 100 out to 1,000 (the length of the range basically) and at 100 is was sub 1/4MOA ( I can't shoot that well, but I have a friend who can and did..).

Here's where I get to say "if I do my part" and "all day long".... sorry, just had to.

Get a smith who is an engineer and understand the science of what's going on.

 

[Grouper]

I have a $200 savage axis in 6.5 cm and a impact precision in 6 xc . It’s night and day in the fit and bolt feel but it should be. The trigger on the impact was way more that the axis cost

 

[PAYDIRT]

Sometimes it depends on who's behind the trigger, right? ?

Absolutely. Isn't there always that one guy with that one rifle? The rest are chasing the next new/best thing $ can buy for accuracy. It's like a dick measuring contest at every match I go to, gear whores galore. Tons of custom rifles get laid to waste every weekend by so called "junk" rifles. Don't get me wrong I'd love to have a full custom build but.....

 

[ManUtdManiac]

Absolutely. Isn't there always that one guy with that one rifle? The rest are chasing the next new/best thing $ can buy for accuracy. It's like a dick measuring contest at every match I go to, gear whores galore. Tons of custom rifles get laid to waste every weekend by so called "junk" rifles. Don't get me wrong I'd love to have a full custom build but.....

So I have my thoughts on this. It's not because folks are ONLY gear whores, I think it's because there's no structured way for people to ramp up and test their skills in a predictable manner.

In the absence of this, people are going to default to trying to 'buy' success. I'm truly shocked at the money people spend on stuff (yes, I'm saying this and knowing that tomorrow I get my Tangent Theta optic... I'm an asshole).

One of the best things to happen to me in my shooting career was to have someone like Josh/Bohem at hand who guided me on how to practice intelligently. Structured time at the range, creating a learning process where each skill built on the previous etc. Then comes the effort...

 

[Dthomas3523]

Everyone online seems to know someone with a cheap rifle or .270 that “runs circles” around all the customs or gear whores or gamers.

I ain’t met that guy yet. Just heard tell of him online far and near.

 

[ManUtdManiac]

Everyone online seems to know someone with a cheap rifle or .270 that “runs circles” around all the customs or gear whores or gamers.

I ain’t met that guy yet. Just heard tell of him online far and near.

check out Lowlight's article on how it's about the effort and not the gear and the example he uses of the dude getting a 3x3 and a world record ELD with nothing other than a hunting rifle.

Skill over gear, for sure, but having decent gear shouldn't mean you MUST have ALL the gear to be decent.

I've never owned a 'factory' rifle. The customs I've owned are a TacOp which I sold or PVA. I did have a DTA which was fun and accurate but sold it because I hated the magazine system and the trigger. Going forward I'll only have PVA rifles and they're not top dollar or pimped out. MPA CHassis, Harris Bipod, Origin Action, TBA Pinnacle sling and some overpriced puffy bags which I think still look super silly but they're necessary.

BTW - If you're Covertnoob on Youtube I really appreciate your reviews. I see your point about the magwell on the MDT but I'd be curious if you've tested the MPA against a barricade without their barricade stop to see if there's any feed issues from pressure on the mag. I generally like to run things light and simple and wondering if the barricade stop is really a must have for the MPA.

 

[Dthomas3523]

check out Lowlight's article on how it's about the effort and not the gear and the example he uses of the dude getting a 3x3 and a world record ELD with nothing other than a hunting rifle.

Skill over gear, for sure, but having decent gear shouldn't mean you MUST have ALL the gear to be decent.

I've never owned a 'factory' rifle. The customs I've owned are a TacOp which I sold or PVA. I did have a DTA which was fun and accurate but sold it because I hated the magazine system and the trigger. Going forward I'll only have PVA rifles and they're not top dollar or pimped out. MPA CHassis, Harris Bipod, Origin Action, TBA Pinnacle sling and some overpriced puffy bags which I think still look super silly but they're necessary.

BTW - If you're Covertnoob on Youtube I really appreciate your reviews. I see your point about the magwell on the MDT but I'd be curious if you've tested the MPA against a barricade without their barricade stop to see if there's any feed issues from pressure on the mag. I generally like to run things light and simple and wondering if the barricade stop is really a must have for the MPA.

ELR is totally different conversation. There’s a reason you can run a savage in elr (not many shots) but if you run it continuously at prs matches, it’s going to fail pretty routinely at some point. Ask frank what action they are always jacking with during classes.

Obviously shooter is the most important part. But there is a point where the shooter is only as good as their equipment. Those are the shooters winning matches. The ones requiring better equipment.

Otherwise, they’d all still be shooting tikka, Remington, and savage. Nobody *wants* to spend $5k on a rifle if they don’t have to. Even the currently “cheaper” optics like razor gen 2 was around $2500 when it was first released.

 

[ManUtdManiac]

ELR is totally different conversation. There’s a reason you can run a savage in elr (not many shots) but if you run it continuously at prs matches, it’s going to fail pretty routinely at some point. Ask frank what action they are always jacking with during classes.

Obviously shooter is the most important part. But there is a point where the shooter is only as good as their equipment. Those are the shooters winning matches. The ones requiring better equipment.

Otherwise, they’d all still be shooting tikka, Remington, and savage. Nobody *wants* to spend $5k on a rifle if they don’t have to. Even the currently “cheaper” optics like razor gen 2 was around $2500 when it was first released.

well now you're talking endurance over accuracy. A hunting rifle isn't designed for being run hard over high round count. Could it on occasion, I guess, I don't have experience or data to say one way over the other.

Savage actions may cause issues in training, but I'd also be curious how well folks look after their kit. I imagine there's a correlation with how well you maintain your kit with how much it costs too. If scopes are anthing to go by...

Extreme anecdotes aside, you're more likely to see factory rifles being run by good shooters and winning over high spec stuff in local matches than you are in the PSR gigs with lots of pro shooters. I don't think that takes too much of a leap of faith. There's a lot of hyperbole of the mystical rifleman who comes into town with a musket and cleans up and disappears in gunsmoke blowing across the prize table...

I see it in archery and golf. Guys spend fucking tons on gear and then when things go south, quickly it's "I need a new sight, clubs, arrows, balls..." no fool, practice with what you have...

 

[Steel head]

check out Lowlight's article on how it's about the effort and not the gear and the example he uses of the dude getting a 3x3 and a world record ELD with nothing other than a hunting rifle.

Lol

Your comparison is a bit off
That guy was probably single loading rounds like many ELR shooters do in a pristine environment.

I’ve run a savage for over a decade.
I’ve had to do work to it to keep it running.
Even now with it possibly running at its best I can guarantee it would give me issues if it got grungy or if I run is fast.

My custom doesn’t care, it runs and runs and runs.

 

[ManUtdManiac]

Lol

Your comparison is a bit off
That guy was probably single loading rounds like many ELR shooters do in a pristine environment.

I’ve run a savage for over a decade.
I’ve had to do work to it to keep it running.
Even now with it possibly running at its best I can guarantee it would give me issues if it got grungy or if I run is fast.

My custom doesn’t care, it runs and runs and runs.

Hey, I"m not arguing for factory over anything, I'm just saying there are examples of folks doing very well with stock or near stock rifles and there's no substitute for effort.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I think much of this comes down to the barrel, and the Boots Obermeyer Everyday Sniper Podcast regarding cut vs button rifling and barrel blank quality.

Lower quality blanks can have inconsistent hardness distributed along their length. When the button finishes traversing them, the bore dimensions can be different from what exists along the softer zones. This affects local bore diameter and barrel stress, and can induce walk as barrels heat up. Freshly rifled factory barrels get stress relieved in the oven over about 10 to 12 hours or so, and while this relieves induced stress from the rifling process, it can do nothing for the stresses that result from these original rifle blank inconsistencies.

Inconsistencies are just that; inconsistent. Some blanks have them in abundance, some not at all; and the odds say that many have the affliction in moderation. Quality blanks with better steel logically have this issue in less abundance.

Greg

 

[R_Swanson]

Interesting thread. I think theres a lot of anecdotes in here. I think the subject is very interesting to me, and I was doing some research on this today after listening to the podcast @Dthomas3523 linked with the owner of MPA.

I'm not saying custom actions aren't more accurate, because in general I think they are. But I do think 2 things:

QC and QC standards will typically dictate factory offerings. *Most* of the time custom smiths with be on top of their QC pretty well.

For factory guns it can be as simple as how long tooling is allowed to be used before replacing. Some will push their tools to the bitter end. Some will replace them well before that.

The ones that don’t replace them as often will have batches of barrels and such at the end of tool life that aren’t as good.

Then there is the actual QC. Bob the factory QC guy’s name isn’t going to shit if it’s Friday and he didn’t feel like checking something as well or he didn’t feel like replacing the tooling until Monday. There goes another day’s worth of possibly sketchy stuff. The saying “did you get a Monday barrel or a Friday barrel” is real.

But the custom smith who’s name is directly associated with the work is much less likely to have a Friday rifle.

So, your factories like AI who have higher standards across the board will perform better overall. You also can’t get an AI for $800 either. So cost vs QC and such is also a factor.

I agree with your overall point about QC - to a point. Its not 1995. There's not some guy with wing sauce on his shirt with calipers doing QC and deciding when to replace tooling. These things are checked by machines to X tolerance. I imagine when SD's of the outputs start to widen to an unacceptable level (IE: starts costing too much money) the tooling is refreshed or replaced. The scheduling of replacement or retooling probably happens a year in advance at a large manufacturer, and I am sure they have a very good idea how long they last. I am 100% sure someone here is in manufacturing and can tell us for certain.

Tighter tolerances effect price. To your point, things are definitely made to a price point - but not everything that helps a company achieve a price point affects accuracy. And I think thats an important distinction in this discussion.

Otherwise, they’d all still be shooting tikka, Remington, and savage. Nobody *wants* to spend $5k on a rifle if they don’t have to. Even the currently “cheaper” optics like razor gen 2 was around $2500 when it was first released.

To me this is the old "we might as well all drive a Civic" argument. But people like GT3's, and 3500 duallys and Mercedes, etc. 99.9% of the time its not because they need the performance, or the towing capacity, or the comfort. I dont need my nice guns - at least any that aren't theoretically for personal protection. I have them because I like them.

Also at the highest level of competition it matters. The us normal people (speaking of myself) - not so much. But that doesnt stop me from buying cool shit that costs a lot.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Interesting thread. I think theres a lot of anecdotes in here. I think the subject is very interesting to me, and I was doing some research on this today after listening to the podcast @Dthomas3523 linked with the owner of MPA.

I'm not saying custom actions aren't more accurate, because in general I think they are. But I do think 2 things:


I agree with your overall point about QC - to a point. Its not 1995. There's not some guy with wing sauce on his shirt with calipers doing QC and deciding when to replace tooling. These things are checked by machines to X tolerance. I imagine when SD's of the outputs start to widen to an unacceptable level (IE: starts costing too much money) the tooling is refreshed or replaced. The scheduling of replacement or retooling probably happens a year in advance at a large manufacturer, and I am sure they have a very good idea how long they last. I am 100% sure someone here is in manufacturing and can tell us for certain.

Tighter tolerances effect price. To your point, things are definitely made to a price point - but not everything that helps a company achieve a price point affects accuracy. And I think thats an important distinction in this discussion.




To me this is the old "we might as well all drive a Civic" argument. But people like GT3's, and 3500 duallys and Mercedes, etc. 99.9% of the time its not because they need the performance, or the towing capacity, or the comfort. I dont need my nice guns - at least any that aren't theoretically for personal protection. I have them because I like them.

Also at the highest level of competition it matters. The us normal people (speaking of myself) - not so much. But that doesnt stop me from buying cool shit that costs a lot.

Ya, but there’s always that rich guy running around in a civic somehwere.

Where are the guys winning PRS matches with the savages? It just doesn’t happen because it’s different.

Also, if some companies’ had come such as long way, savage and Remington (and other actions) wouldn’t run like shit so much. You also wouldn’t get the variance in barrels like you do.

Many of them haven’t changed much of their processes because plenty of people still buy their products with low QC standards.

 

[R_Swanson]

Ya, but there’s always that rich guy running around in a civic somehwere.

Where are the guys winning PRS matches with the savages? It just doesn’t happen because it’s different.

Also, if some companies’ had come such as long way, savage and Remington (and other actions) wouldn’t run like shit so much. You also wouldn’t get the variance in barrels like you do.

Many of them haven’t changed much of their processes because plenty of people still buy their products with low QC standards.

I dont know what you mean by "its different". There are a plethora of reasons that people dont use Savage. I am not defending Savage or Remington. I'm pointing out that you are mistaking manufacturing processes and having the ability to produce a high end action or barrel with actually doing it. There's a lot more questions at Remington, Savage, Sig, S&W, etc than "can we make a 1200 dollar action".

Also, the OP's question was about accuracy. Not about what guys that compete in PRS like to shoot, and why they value a custom action. The question was are they always inherently more accurate.

Either way, its an interesting topic / conversation.

 

[oldiephrt]

Just reiterating my earlier opinion. This is my Savage Ashbury Precision Ordinance .308 stock rifle 24" barrel. I bought it on sale for $599 from Bridgeport Equipment in Marieta, OH a few months ago. No modifications to this stock rifle. I shot this 5 rd group at 100 yds three days ago using a 6-24x50 Nikon Black FX1000 scope loaded with 42.2gr of H4895 and SMK 175 gr bullet. I've repeated this result several times with the same load.

I may have missed somebody saying it earlier but, good shooting. Be grateful you can shoot consistently. As mentioned, not everyone benefits from a custom nor can justify the expense. Safe Queens are an abomination.

 

[mcm308]

Around 2005 I bought a Remington 700 VS .308 for I think 389$. Took it to the range with FGMM 168gr. And it shot consistently under 1/2 moa one hole groups. No amount of money could've made it shoot better,IMO. It was probably this picture because I am smiling that this fella that helped me looked at me and said " its a fucken 1/4 moa gun!" Lol

 

[300Norma1959]

I watched my smith blueprint a Rem 700. I was amazing how sloppy the factory machining really was. A custom rifle will have accurate machining and therefore increase consistency and accuracy