Range Report Debate of solids vs FMJ. What do you use

[fastline]

IN a nut shell, I might look to build a .458 Socom whisper rifle unless I find reason to look at another round. I am looking to load my own and will cnc machine my own bullets as long as there is reasonable chat that solids can produce the accuracy of FMJ.

I realize a lot of the debate is over the BC of the bullet. I know the density of lead is superior to copper. I suppose I could also bore the center and create a soft point but that would be a separate cast on the top that I would rather not do.

It would be great if I can find an alloy that makes me happy to machine from. So far, solid bullet from Barnes are about 2 dollars each. I ain't paying it...

Of course I am open to other rounds that work will as sub sonic and built up over 500gr.

 

[Jerry m]

Re: Debate of solids vs FMJ. What do you use

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fastline</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...So far, solid bullet from Barnes are about 2 dollars each. I ain't paying it...

</div></div>

Seriously doubt that you can buy the material (add machine time, your time, oil, rags, etc.) and 'make' you own bullets for less. But, good luck.

Jerry

 

[bohem]

Re: Debate of solids vs FMJ. What do you use

gas operated rifle or manually operated?

If not a gas gun, then just cast lead and gas check it. 700gr cast lead can be made no problem. I've done it with a custom mould from Lee. The 500's are easy to get with an off the shelf mould in 458.

 

[fastline]

Re: Debate of solids vs FMJ. What do you use

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jerry M</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fastline</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...So far, solid bullet from Barnes are about 2 dollars each. I ain't paying it...

</div></div>

Seriously doubt that you can buy the material (add machine time, your time, oil, rags, etc.) and 'make' you own bullets for less. But, good luck.

Jerry </div></div>

We are a CNC mchine shop and have extensive experience in this area so I feel very confident in our ability here.



I am not looking to cast because I understand that in certain conditions (pressures)the slug will vaporize or deform drastically in the bore to make it a useless round. Now, I am looking to build a subsonic gun here but I am curious as to what the limitations of lead really is and why people are running jackets so much. I am trying to avoid a super high twist barrel here.

 

[bohem]

Re: Debate of solids vs FMJ. What do you use

fastline-

I've run a 30-06 10tw barrel with hard cast, gas checked lead bullets (215gr) in excess of 2500fps with NO LEADING ISSUES.

For a dedicated subsonic rifle to launch heavies I have done this with great success:

1) Big bore (44cal at least)
2) Small case capacity (44mag, 45LC, 44 wildcat based on 30-06 case)
3) Hard cast lead that is alloyed with antimony and water quenched
4) Gas check that bullet

Dedicate some range time to shooting them with shotgun and pistol powders like RedDot, Unique, BlueDot, GreenDot, etc. and spend time there with the chrono.

Do no shoot anything through the suppressor until you've checked it at 100yd for keyholed paper marks. You want nice round circles to validate stability.

Then screw the can on it and have fun.

My dad has been shooting a suppressed 44cal wildcat (mentioned above) for about 10 years now, he takes 45-70 bullets that were 500gr to start, collets them in the lathe and turns them down to 0.430", loads and shoots over RedDot. They finish up ready to go at 460gr.

RedDot is extremely clean in this application, which is surprising...

 

[fastline]

Re: Debate of solids vs FMJ. What do you use

Thanks!

I am still trying to find out where the limit is with Lead regarding accuracy or pressure. Maybe pressures to achieve 3000ft/s is limiting? Just trying to figure out where people are using solids and jackets. It sounds like solids are only for extremists that measure everything daily and it takes perfection to shoot them accurately. Jackets are more forgiving have a crunchy shell and soft, gooie center...lol

 

[bohem]

Re: Debate of solids vs FMJ. What do you use

Solids solve some structural dynamics problems that cannot be overcome with lead or jacketed bullets. The natural behavior of a monolithic made of copper makes the bullet significantly stiffer than a jacketed bullet.

I've seen 3kfps from lead with a gas check on it but it started to foul up around 50 rounds down the bore. For the occasional jacketed bullet to be shot through as a lead cleaner you could run this.

Repeatability with lead is best gotten from nose pour moulds and there are some guys who shoot sub MOA with them. I'm using lead in pistols for plinking/hunting and rifles in hunting situations where a long subsonic shot on a 9" circle is still a 3-4MOA target. Well within the limits of lead.

The re-turned lead that my dad uses in that 44 will repeat extremely well, they're essentially a mono-solid at that point and show fantastic precision levels for the low tech lead bullet. Sub MOA is not hard at all when going through that trouble. I've asked him several times how many bullets he wants to turn on a manual lathe before he ponies up the $150 that Lee wants for a custom in this setup. His response is "they work so well and I shoot only a few hundred a year that I'm not going to bother"... I just leave it alone.

The sliding velocities are what appear to kill a gas checked lead bullet in the bore. A high quality, lapped custom barrel with a gas check can go 3kfps, but I see little point in doing that considering the work involved vs. buying a box of Hornady/Sierra/Berger bullets... or even JLK's or Cauteruccio's for that matter. You may feel differently, but that's how I see it.

Cast bullets that can be cranked out from a 6 cavity mould allow me to shoot near 15k/year for pistol bullets and they cost me under a dime per loaded round. I get to shoot a lot of 357, 10mm, 44mag for that. I cast bullets for pistols about 4 times a year for a whole afternoon and then shoot for a couple months on that.

In rifle stuff at subsonic speeds the cast lead bullets in a regular bore are the way to maximize downrange THUMP because there's a hard limit on the speed (Mach 1 or less) so to get harder hitting effects you need to throw a heavier bullet.

I've got a mould for 6.5mm 175gr bullets that I've been dusting from my 8.5tw 260 Rem DPMS upper. It makes an eery clink on steel at 300yd...

 

[BCP]

Re: Debate of solids vs FMJ. What do you use

I hear about people pushing lead bullets past 2500fps but typically I would say figure 1800fps with a gas check as a conservative max. If you are shooting suppressed you want 1200fps or less anyways so lead should work just fine. Another way to go might be copper jacketed, they typically aren't as tough as standard FMJ's but still work quite well up to 2500fps (I shoot 150copper in my garand at 2550fps without a problem).

As far as accuracy goes a friend of mine shoots lead in his 9mm and 38's as well as his 30-30. His pistol rounds are on par with factory plinking stuff and his 30-30 has killed plenty of deer at 200 and less yards.

Now, I'm not familiar with 458socom but there are plenty of lead 45 molds out there so I see no reason why you couldn't make a lead projectile for it.

edit: 45-70 molds are 457 diameter and 400grains+.