Gunsmithing Deciding between two lathes

[jacq220]

The owner keeps trying to talk me into this
http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM1236.html

this looks like its a bit better suited but for 1k more?
http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM1440B.html


I keep reading places on the internet where people have talked him down in price, as well as one of his posts on practical machinist where he said he offered discounts for members. all somewhat older posts. everytime i talk to him he says there is no longer any room to move. the first time he quoted me a price and said it included the Practical machinist discount but his quoted price was EXACTLY the same as his advertised price.

do you think he is talking me into the smaller machine because he makes more and they will be in stock sooner?
do i REALLY NEED to spend the extra 1k?

what am i missing that makes the larger machine 1k more expensive?

 

[2156SMK]

Re: Deciding between two lathes

The 2" spindle bore means you are getting a stronger mount like a D1-6 and most likely larger bearings to accomodate the larger spindle.
I have a 12x36 now and I am in the process of getting a 13x40 as I often find myself just an inch short of travel on the bed when I have a 26" barrel hung all the way out between a chuck and a live center.

 

[CountryBoy19]

Re: Deciding between two lathes

I like the sounds of the 1440 as well, but can you actually make use of the "extras"? or do you think you may want to in the future?

I hate making these types of decisions too.

 

[jacq220]

Re: Deciding between two lathes

Gunsmithing only. I am not going to contract out other machining as i am a full time fireman and gunsmithing is my side deal.

i also think it would be worth it alone to get power feed in the cross slide, and i believe the power feed cluch slip mechanism should allow me to set up a thread stop so i can manually thread at a faster RPM w/out cutting a relief.

still trying to figure out why its a thousand dollars more expensive.

 

[hero's machine]

Re: Deciding between two lathes

I have the 1440bv, I love it sans the change gears and brake. the vairable speed and extra weight make up the difference for me. is it a hardinge or monarch, no. will it make accurate repeatable finishes, yes. is it a good value, yes. would I buy it again...100% yes. in truth, either will work, but the big bearings, and spindle mixed with extra bed lenght and variable speed are just too much.


ask gloworm what he paid....he is just a few weeks ahead of you.

 

[jacq220]

Re: Deciding between two lathes

If i had the money for the bv, i would still probably get the B and add a dro.

sounds like you are confirming my thoughts that i should get the bigger lathe.

can you use the slip clutch as a thread stop?

 

[hero's machine]

Re: Deciding between two lathes

there is no clutch to slip. it is 100% freq driven. you can go from next to stopped to wide open in a single twist. it makes threading a breeze.

 

[jacq220]

Re: Deciding between two lathes

slip clutch are the EXACT words used on the websight.

Slip Clutch on feed rod, to help prevent overloading damage of feeds and allow the use of a solid carriage stop for repetitive work


does this mean i can use a solid carriage stop as a thread stop for threading up against a shoulder? or for blind hole single pointing?

 

[Marriedman1]

Re: Deciding between two lathes

Yes i have the 14x40BV on order along with a 9x36 Mill. Both with DRO and the Mill also has a variable drive placed on it. I am not sure that you can use the carriage stop as a threading stop. at least i have never used them like that. Always had them but just never used them. Just learn to thread and life will be good. My Mill is being shipped as we speak but the Lathe is not is yet. Although he did just get a large order of the smaller machines in. the 14x40 B and BV are selling before they are even ordered. All already have payments on them before they arrive.

 

[jacq220]

Re: Deciding between two lathes

yea, he said 8-12 weeks out on the next shipment of 14x40's

 

[HPLLC]

Re: Deciding between two lathes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JACQ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gunsmithing only. I am not going to contract out other machining as i am a full time fireman and gunsmithing is my side deal.

i also think it would be worth it alone to get power feed in the cross slide, and i believe the power feed cluch slip mechanism should allow me to set up a thread stop so i can manually thread at a faster RPM w/out cutting a relief.

still trying to figure out why its a thousand dollars more expensive. </div></div>

If that's true that it would allow you to set a thread stop, that would be a nice feature to have.

If not, I'd go with the 1.5" spindle bore machine, and add $700 for DRO's. DRO's are nice to have.

The equipment looks Asian to me. It seems the Asians are really proud of their stuff lately- the hard thing to swallow about spending $5000 on an asian lathe, is that occasionally you'll see a working CNC turning center or VMC go for $6500.... and it makes you wonder why the heck a decent manual lathe has to cost $5000 when it was made in China.

I guess there was a time when Mexico was buying up any decent American lathe around. It's too bad- because those were nice machines that were going for little more in most cases than scrap metal value (pretty heavy stuff).

 

[jacq220]

Re: Deciding between two lathes

I can add a DRO later.... I am pretty much settled on the 14-40b... last thing i want to do is spend 3k, and a few years later wish i would have spent 4. worst case scenario i tell myself later that i didnt need as good of a lathe as i got.

Now to come up w/ another thousand.


Oh, and matt said it would not work as a thread stop, its a slip clutch on the power feed, NOT the lead screw.

 

[hero's machine]

Re: Deciding between two lathes

the clutch on the carriage does NOT work with the leadscrew....only power feeds. there may be a stop available, but I dont have it. it is sweet to be able to drop the speed to nothing at the termination of the thread and be able to cut the bulk at high speed. you will do fine.

 

[300sniper]

Re: Deciding between two lathes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JACQ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">slip clutch are the EXACT words used on the websight.

Slip Clutch on feed rod, to help prevent overloading damage of feeds and allow the use of a solid carriage stop for repetitive work


does this mean i can use a solid carriage stop as a thread stop for threading up against a shoulder? or for blind hole single pointing? </div></div>


i really doubt that would work for a threading stop. the spindle and feed need to stay in sync. if it hits a stop and the spindle keeps turning, your next pass with the threading tool will not jive with the previous pass. basic turning is a totally different animal. there is nothing that needs to stay in sync.

 

[Straight Shooter]

Re: Deciding between two lathes

I paid close to $11,000 for my 2300 pound Asian (Tai) lathe with a DRO and a few other extras. It runs mighty fine. It is a Sun Master ERL-13x40 with the Precision Mathews label stuck on it. I got it from Matt. It looks a lot like a Clausing Colchester 13x40 only I can readily buy parts for mine if I ever need them. Try that with the Clausing.

 

[RADcustom]

Re: Deciding between two lathes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hired Gun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I paid close to $11,000 for my 2300 pound Asian lathe with a DRO and it runs mighty fine. I got it from Matt. It looks a lot like a Clausing Colchester 13x40 only I can readily buy parts for mine if I ever need them. Try that with the Clausing. </div></div>

For $11000 I could buy two Clausing Colcesters on ebay and use one for parts, but I would likely just have two very nice machines instead. Those machines were built to last with proper care. I don't understand the fascination with the Chinese import lathes.

 

[jacq220]

Re: Deciding between two lathes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hired Gun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I paid close to $11,000 for my 2300 pound Asian lathe with a DRO and it runs mighty fine. I got it from Matt. It looks a lot like a Clausing Colchester 13x40 only I can readily buy parts for mine if I ever need them. Try that with the Clausing. </div></div>

For $11000 I could buy two Clausing Colcesters on ebay and use one for parts, but I would likely just have two very nice machines instead. Those machines were built to last with proper care. I don't understand the fascination with the Chinese import lathes. </div></div>

not everybody can pick the good apples from the bad w/ used machinery.

by your standard i assume you are driving a car from the 50's or 60's? i mean those old american made cars were built to last with proper care.

its the nature of the beast these days.

 

[RADcustom]

Re: Deciding between two lathes

I understand the concerns of buying used but, with a little research one can learn what to look for.

Aside from the minivan we got for the wife last year for hauling the kids around, it's an 03 GMC. After that, it's a 97 Freightliner and a 91 SHO. So yeah, I'm partial to the older stuff.

 

[jacq220]

Re: Deciding between two lathes

there is a BIG differance between 1991 and newer vs, older from the 50's and 60s. first there were alot more cars made than lathes, so parts will always be easier so it may not be the best analogy. but i would LOVE to buy an american made lathe for 5000 dollars from the early 90's.

fact is you just cant, and you are not going to find parts for your 55 chevy anymore than i am going to be able to find parts for a 77 clausing.

to me, its not worth the headache. If i am going to have headaches w/ a lathe, i would rather it be while i am on hold while someone lookes up the part for me to tell me how quickly they can get it to me. not searching the internet for hours and hours trying to find one.

 

[USW.260]

Re: Deciding between two lathes

JACQ Have you looked into the ACER Lathes. I'm running one now, a 1740G that is really nice! They are from what I can tell half American "out of California" and half Tiawan. They come with Baldor motors....seriously the best Motor in the world--Period!
When I say I'm running one, I mean I'm taking actual college credit classes in Machine Technologies 2 days a week 4 hours a day. In our class we have a bunch of old YAMs, the one ACER, and a LeBlond that has a screw on spindle! We also have lots of mills Horizontal, for fluting, Gear cutting, and vertical. And a ACER MIll that matches the ACER Lathe, South Bends and Cincinatties OLD and New! My Point is....if you can try before you Buy...do it. Also the Old ones...I mean the ones built before You or I were born still cut true and will for a long, long time b/c they were built that way. Anyways I've had the pleasure of running some nice Lathes and some old Lathes where you have to manually set the Cross Slide back "by hand" then turn the handle in to get rid of Play! Funny thing that machine still held a Half Thousands true over a 11" peice of Low Carbon steel that I turned down for my Project "hammer handle".
Oh yeah all of are Mills have DRO's on them...were are not allowed to use them! Google the ACERs they have smaller but after running this 17x40...I will not own anything smaller. And the back side of the spindle come threaded for a spider...either you can build one which will be a striaght peice of pipe threaded at one end or get one of theres. I also think the bore runs in the 2" range. Very nice!

 

[300sniper]

Re: Deciding between two lathes

for what it's worth, clausing still had most parts available for my clausing 6300 that was made in the 50's or 60's. it wouldn't surprise me if you could still get almost anything for the colchester.

 

[RADcustom]

Re: Deciding between two lathes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">for what it's worth, clausing still had most parts available for my clausing 6300 that was made in the 50's or 60's. it wouldn't surprise me if you could still get almost anything for the colchester. </div></div>

I had a response typed out last night and decided it wasn't worth arguing about.

Yes, you can still get parts for the 6000 and 8000 series lathes from Clausing. I have heard they are expensive but they are available.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: Deciding between two lathes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USW.260</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> some old Lathes where you have to manually set the Cross Slide back "by hand" then turn the handle in to get rid of Play! Funny thing that machine still held a Half Thousands true over a 11" peice of Low Carbon steel that I turned down for my Project "hammer handle". </div></div>

That's called backlash and your turning the handle out and bringing it back in is "backlash compensation".

A new Asian lathe will have backlash, as will most any manual machine. The only machines that nearly eliminate backlash, are CNC's which use tension loaded opposing ball bearing packed nuts and ball screws to effectively remove play by simultaneously taking the tolerance slop out of both sides of the ballscrew's precision ground thread form.

 

[jacq220]

Re: Deciding between two lathes

ALL machines will have SOME backlash. it increases with wear, some machines are better than others. a DRO is handy becuase it compensates for it.

 

[300sniper]

Re: Deciding between two lathes

backlash isn't the end of the world on a manual machine. any decent machinist is aware of it and aware of how they approach the work to make it a non-issue.

 

[Straight Shooter]

Re: Deciding between two lathes

When I was shopping I was going to buy the Clausing Colchester 13x40 8000 series and I came across a couple broken ones and the owners were telling me that there was no new parts support for that model and everything had to be made. They were quoted something like $800 per gear.

 

[USW.260]

Re: Deciding between two lathes

Yes sir, Back Lash....and all the machines have it thats in our class, even the newer ACER Not much...but its there.