Same guy who bought McMillan, hopefully a good thing, not sure how too feel about it. Time will tell.
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Same guy who bought McMillan, hopefully a good thing, not sure how too feel about it. Time will tell.
New owner Bob Beck is already in the comments section of that post getting testy with people who question if this is really good for defiance.
Not a good look
Not a good look
Will "Pre-Buyout Defiance" will become a new discriminator?
-Stan
-Stan
Where?
On Defiance IG post, the usual troll comments and he’s feeding them.
When will people realize to just ignore them, responding just comes off as insecure or sensitive, but I’m also not in his position so I don’t know.
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I have been in meetings with company's who were buying other company's and "most times" when it is an outsider buying the company, the company tends to go down hill because the passion for the product isn't there anymore it's now an investment and ROI means everything.
Good time to get out. Ride the high of all the money rolling in last 2 years from strong sales and go retire, let it be someone else’s problem.
I do wonder what this means for Defiance prices, quality, and support.
I do wonder what this means for Defiance prices, quality, and support.
Remington changed ownership and looked what happened to it lol
He is kind of right. These things have happened in the past and almost every time the same situation plays out.
Brains behind product/production Leave or sell out.
New owners leverage reputation of name without continuing to innovate or put out anything relevant.
Slow Decline into irrelevancy, Like McMillan, Surgeon, and about 50 other gun companies.
What do the new owners bring to the table that will be a competitive advantage? How will they make the products better than the people who designed them?
First of all you have to be a moron to wait a year for an action. You can go to Altus, SPA ect and buy a new defiance action today. Second, Lone Peak, Impact and Terminus are taking away their market share. They will not be the dominant action manufacture in this precision rifle world for long, and Impact already stomped them out of the PRS Lead a few years ago. Its not going to get better.
So people have a legit reason to be worried. Either as an existing customer or someone waiting on product. If it was me, I would not wait for the bottom to fall out, good time to call up Tate.
Totally agree, for the record I’m not for or against this, and like most I am skeptical. If I was going to look at a defiance action I would wait a while after this acquisition.
I like small companies that do one thing really really well, makes you feel like you’re getting something that was made by a master of the craft.
Defiance recently had a price increase but they are so far behind they won't be shipping any of the higher priced actions for a year.
I called about an extra bolt some months ago and was told it would be 13-16 months. I politely thanked the gentleman on the phone and bought a TL3 for small bore stuff.
Buddy is in same boat. He has an awesome little tenacity but cant get a .223 bolt for it. Might as well sell it and buy an impact.
Zero reason to wait for any of this shit when a competitor can get them to you in less than a week.
Zero reason to wait for any of this shit when a competitor can get them to you in less than a week.
**What I am about to say is just my experience outside this industry but in the manufacturing space. It in now way reflects on anyone in it. I have no knowledge of Defiance. I am just responding the assertion above. ***
I've seen the exact opposite. Most small and mid size firms are on their last legs. Usually the founder knows the space and sales, but cannot run the company right. They are told repeatedly to bring in professional management, a good operational accountant, and find some legal support. They often commingle personal stuff like boats and RVS with operating expenses and Capex. They ride a single product line and don't expand and revise either their lines or tools. They won't delegate nor build their team. The org chart looks like an amoeba eating a mold colony.
Sales is about finding a process that creates something someone will buy. But that is one KEY but small part of the overall picture. But you have to work ON the business as well as work IN the business. Eventually the lack of ON will create so many issues the founder can't fix it with bandaids.
Operating a business is about having key internal processes in place to keep sales going. Hiring and firing. Investment. Sales and delivery. Accounts payable and accounts receivable. Pricing and purchasing. Planning, commuincating, and execution of strategy.
In our space of precision rifle based on my observations I'd have to say MDT is probably the best at most of this.
The Extreme brand hopefully has a mature operating model in place where they can take over most of the business process while freeing the founders to sell.
As for trolls, most have never run a firm. They may be passionate about the product. But they are still a mob with torches and pitchforks. The new owner should just have a BBQ and invite everyone, listen to them, get some good ideas, and let it burn over. There is no such thing as bad publicity if you treat everyone as having a voice and good ideas. Hard to do, but making them show up face to face will turn it around every time.
I must do things backwards. I called to order an action a few weeks back and they gave me an estimated delivery date of January 2024. I said, if it takes that long to get an action, you better make me two of them.
I'm always skeptical of ownership changes when things are seemingly going well. Rarely it seems like things improve for the customer.
The good news is that it's not a vulture capital venture firm buying up Defiance. The new owners at least seem to have some personal investment into outdoors sports, so it could certainly be worse.
Did McMillan go downhill after the new ownership?
Be interesting to see how Defiance changes. They aren't my main choice for an action these days, but do have one for my .300NM that I really like. What Defiance does do well is all the customization they allow, for those that want it.
The good news is that it's not a vulture capital venture firm buying up Defiance. The new owners at least seem to have some personal investment into outdoors sports, so it could certainly be worse.
Did McMillan go downhill after the new ownership?
Be interesting to see how Defiance changes. They aren't my main choice for an action these days, but do have one for my .300NM that I really like. What Defiance does do well is all the customization they allow, for those that want it.
You must’ve said all the right words because I was told they weren’t taking any new orders. Had to clear out the backlog of existing orders for their vendors.
That said, it makes me wonder what changed internally? They seemed to be humming right along with everybody else and then the lead times started building up to what it is now. I loved the machinist Mondays thread the had for awhile, they seemed to be cranking out a few hundred actions a month. Can they really have THAT many orders?
They seem to make a lot of actions for "house builds". Some builders like having their names on the side of actions, and Defiance is one of the few that will do that.
Agreed. I also know nothing about manufacturing, machining, etc, not my business. To slow down their line like that, is it out unreasonable to say they have orders in the thousands? Or did a machine go down, a key employee leave, etc?
I would say they are selling above their capacity. And getting new machines is taking awhile at the moment. And it could be that they sold controlling interest in the company to raise capital. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
I need the details on this please
I don't know the details, but Google turned up this. The details mesh with what others have posted on other boards.
https://www.skinnymoose.com/moosedr...uter-limits-pleads-guilty-to-game-violations/
I have no idea if Defiance selling is good or bad, I have two of their actions and I'm happy with both of them. I hope that it's smooth transition and quality remains the same.
ETA: If you read the comments on the article, the top one is by Mr. Beck and it offers his side of the story.
https://www.skinnymoose.com/moosedr...-guilty-to-game-violations/#comment-475224988
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Google his name and poaching. There are the nut-swingers that saddled up and rode to his defense so you'll need to use your best judgement and sort everything out. I don't want to post anything here. Seems like the type of guy that would try to sue.
Bob Beck Co Host of “Extreme Outer Limits” Pleads Guilty to Game Violations
www.skinnymoose.com
Wow.
McMillan
Well said Oldloser, and that is why most companies fail with either the children or grandchildren. Watching one go under right now because of all of the above. Doesn't mean it isn't a good product.
Those 2 words are the problem when combined with hunting - "pros" and "influencers".
It was never meant to be that way, at least not the social circle it is now.
What a pro should be to a hunter is his/her father or grandfather or some other elder that mentors an inexperienced hunter.
Influencers? What an unearned joke, but a real one nonetheless.
In hunting an influencer should be the same as above or a known circle of outdoorsmen and women who are friends to each other sharing experiences.
Gotta wonder how he acquired the capital to buy out both McMillan and Defiance. It does suck that douchebag ended up being the guy to buy Kelly and Glen out.
Can’t help but feel like Glen is getting out while the getting is good. It’s a shame because Defiance is one of the OGs.
The new guy is a class-A dickhead.
The new guy is a class-A dickhead.
All we can do is speculate as to what happened. Given the state of our economy (inflation/recession) and supply chain woes in the firearm market maybe this was their chance to bail out from a financial disaster.
Only time will tell as to the future success of Defiance!
Only time will tell as to the future success of Defiance!
We've had pre '64 Winchesters, now we have pre Beck Defiance.
Good for Glen, hope he has luck with whatever is next. My last actions ordered were 2/21 delivered 6/21, and 10/21 delivered 8/22. Lead times went up fast. I called about getting a bolt yesterday and was told they are trying to keep those to 90 day turn around. I imagine will see the majority of custom options disappear to bring the lead time down and roi up.
D
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Probably a smart move getting out of the business. I don`t blame them one bit. With all the anti-gun movement lately, they will soon achieve their goal taking us down while we all still play keyboard warrior games and complain.
this story would only be funny if bob and the other guy suddenly were against making parts for evil firearms lol
Bighorn already had their buyout, and their name is Zermatt Arms International. Things seem to be going dang well.
I have no dog in this fight. I don’t own a defiance and don’t plan to. I also don’t personally know Bob or his wife. I have however attended many trade shows over multiple years with him and his crew including his wife. I’ve multiple times over the years shared busses, shuttles, bar time and more with them. From candid face to face conversations and overhearing conversations I will say that there is plenty of passion for the industry from all of them both hunting and shooting. Like I said I don’t “know” any of them but from what I can assume through time spent around them I would think there’s plenty of passion to steer defiance in the right direction. Hopefully for you defiance fans they take there passion and use it. We don’t know but maybe defiance especially on over a year backorder needed money and motivation and they could provide just that. I hope for the industry this happens. For me I’ll stick to my arc actions.
Rather than responding to each individual comment that has transpired here, especially those who are making a lot of assumptions, and others who merely wish to make personal character attacks, we will simply state that the new owners have expressed and continue to act in a manner that does not imply changes to what has been and continues to be a success. Time will tell, and our product will speak for itself, period. Many successful companies have changed hands over the years, some for the better, some the same, and some not. We see this for the better, as we now have more resources at our disposal to improve upon and continue to make a high quality product, that has led to the demand and subsequent lead times from others who recognize that.
so what your saying is the usual...everyone knows more than the person who sold it or the person who bought it...lolol
Wow man the price increases on Defiance actions are over 27% for next year. If new ownership was intending to tank sales this would be a great way to do it. Yeah yeah, material cost increase, labor cost increases.
Going to be a hard sale for Tenacitys to go for $1595, Ruckus for $1695 and Deviants for $1795.
Going to be a hard sale for Tenacitys to go for $1595, Ruckus for $1695 and Deviants for $1795.
I currently have 4 Deviant Tacticals…
I will buy 0 more at those prices
It doesn’t show an option for a Lapua bolt any more
I will buy 0 more at those prices
It doesn’t show an option for a Lapua bolt any more
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Gotta make that bottom line.
Edit: I mean are people still buying stuff? Industry was on fire, but that hasn’t been the case for months. Prices have soared on enough, when will people stop buying if they haven’t already?
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Yeah or more likely turn customers on to competitors with better pricing like oh I don't know maybe Impact, Zermatt, Lone Peak, Curtis etc.
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