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Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

V

verrocchio100

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 21, 2003
137
0
Pac-O
Does anyone have any side by side comparisons between all 3 in SA and 0.473 bolt face?

Advantages/disadvantages of their either respective design? QC, after sales support, cost, etc?

Or is comparison like a Chevy vs Ford vs Dodge discussion?

Debating on which of the three I want to use as a starting point for next project.

Thanks!
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

True...winner's circle is one measure....

But I am venturing to guess many will vote via wallet based on other factors...

So Bolt, what would you run and why?
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

I believe it is more of a Lambo vs Ferrari vs Porsche discussion.
However, I don't think you could go wrong with any of them, even though my personal preference would be the Defiance action.
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

Boltripper has been to the stiller......have seen how the bolts get made


Boltripper has been there when the redheaded wunder guy from oklahoma laced 20,000 plus lines of code to birth the surgeon

.....boltripper knows nothing of the 3rd player


excuse me i gotta drink a beer
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

I have worked with all of these. Not a dog in the bunch. Both Surgeon and Defiance have a one piece bolt and handle assembly. If you like a polished look the defiance is the way to go. Beautiful piece. It really hurt me to have to blast that nice polish and cerakote for a customer. All are quality.
Rob
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

This is another one of those Ford vs Chevy debates. All at top tier actions that are more then capable.
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

oh.....it seems that the latest greatest from still got a one piece bolt also.......just sayin

shiner boch is rather tasty in the triple digit
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goin'Hot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you really want precision, look at BAT machine.</div></div>


snipers hide ...... a website for serious tactical shooter
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">oh.....it seems that the latest greatest from still got a one piece bolt also.......just sayin

shiner boch is rather tasty in the triple digit </div></div>

Yep, my predator has a one piece bolt.

Rifle should be complete in the next month or so. Can't wait...

DSC01459.jpg



John
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

I Have all three all three are great and to me the most important part is who puts it all together when you choose one of these fine actions. Dustin
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

I know that you can get the Defiance action cut to accept AW mags, in addition to AICS mags. That's a nice feature...
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

If you are going to run it hard or shoot matches with it, you might want to think about avoiding the Stiller. Not that Stiller isn't a good accurate action, it's just that if you are going to travel, spend $, and go to matches to compete then I would buy something built tougher.

My Stiller Tac-30 has broke down on me or given me trouble four times now at matches in the last 18 months...
Extractor problem at LRA Louisiana match.
Broke the Bolt handle at Tiger Valley.
Broke the Bolt stop/release at Rifles Only Bash.
Broke the Bolt stop/release again at 3Mils Right match.

Stiller has always fixed the problems right away, but that doesn't help you when you're at a match and your rifle is down.
This last time when I broke the bolt stop/release tab for the second time, Stiller told me not to run the bolt so hard and take it easy on it. Crazy me, I thought a "Tac-30" was supposed to be their "Tactical" action, I shouldn't be able to break it with my bare hands just by running the bolt fast/hard....

I myself would buy a Surgeon, but unfortunately Surgeon doesn't make a left handed action. So, I am putting up with the Stiller....

Again though, if you don't run your rifle hard and just shoot for fun, then you would probably be very happy with a Stiller.
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

The bolt will bind on the Defiance actions until broken in, and the 1 o'clock position of its M16 extractor has been the topic of discussion here before. The high angle causes the ejected brass to hit the windage turret, and occasionally drop back into the port. Mine bangs up the turret, but I've never had one to drop back into the port and cause a jam.

I think the Stiller has the same ejector and angle, but I've never owned one so I can't provide any first-hand experience.

I'd look at the Bighorn or Surgeon.
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lucks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I myself would buy a Surgeon, but unfortunately Surgeon doesn't make a left handed action. So, I am putting up with the Stiller....
</div></div> ah yes, the left handed issue reappears to stump us fellow lefty's - that is why I drive a Defiance action built to the finer style of shooter - the lefty
grin.gif
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JSTARSZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lucks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I myself would buy a Surgeon, but unfortunately Surgeon doesn't make a left handed action. So, I am putting up with the Stiller....
</div></div> ah yes, the left handed issue reappears to stump us fellow lefty's - that is why I drive a Defiance action built to the finer style of shooter - the lefty
grin.gif
</div></div>I too run the defiance for the lefty reason, three of 'em. Haven't had a fail on one yet, would like to try a surgeon but.....never mind. One to watch for in the near future is Newman Precision is in the process of building his own custom action. Can't wait to see what Jerry comes up with.
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Boomholzer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">whatever is cheapest. </div></div>

If your going to build off a custom action this shouldn't influence you that much.



I would go for the defiance machine if you wanted to run AW mags ( 2.950 OAL and stagger fed)

I'd run Surgeon for anything else. I run a Surgeon and it shoots great and runs perfectly.
I don't have any experience with Stiller yet
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

I've got 4 defiance (Templars)
3 surgeons.... 0 stillers.... love the defiance and surgeons equally

I like the extractor on the defiance bolts, the surgeons are standard remmy
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goin'Hot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you really want precision, look at BAT machine.</div></div>


snipers hide ...... a website for serious tactical shooter </div></div>

Yep. The serious tactical shooter that runs the super "reliable" and tacticool Jewell trigger.

God forbid you blank a primer or get dirt in you tactical action. If you run a jewell, good chance you're screwed.
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lucks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are going to run it hard or shoot matches with it, you might want to think about avoiding the Stiller. Not that Stiller isn't a good accurate action, it's just that if you are going to travel, spend $, and go to matches to compete then I would buy something built tougher.

My Stiller Tac-30 has broke down on me or given me trouble four times now at matches in the last 18 months...
Extractor problem at LRA Louisiana match.
Broke the Bolt handle at Tiger Valley.
Broke the Bolt stop/release at Rifles Only Bash.
Broke the Bolt stop/release again at 3Mils Right match.

Stiller has always fixed the problems right away, but that doesn't help you when you're at a match and your rifle is down.
This last time when I broke the bolt stop/release tab for the second time, Stiller told me not to run the bolt so hard and take it easy on it. Crazy me, I thought a "Tac-30" was supposed to be their "Tactical" action, I shouldn't be able to break it with my bare hands just by running the bolt fast/hard....

I myself would buy a Surgeon, but unfortunately Surgeon doesn't make a left handed action. So, I am putting up with the Stiller....

Again though, if you don't run your rifle hard and just shoot for fun, then you would probably be very happy with a Stiller. </div></div>

^^^^^This, I have had most of these problems with my Stiller TAC-300. I would get a Surgeon if I had it to do over again.
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

I have 2 stillers and one surgeon. So far, they are pretty equall as they both have pinned recoil lugs, one piece bolts and pinned rails. One thing I do like about the stiller better is you have an option of standard or 20 MOA rail and the surgeon does'nt, its only 20 MOA.

As for breaking a bolt release on a stiller, I would have to agree with them-ease up some! They now offer one piece bolts standard. I think that has taken place in only the last year or so. If you look VERY CLOSE to it and a PTG bolt, I would almost bet its made in the same machine shop.

I have no experiance with the others mentioned.
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

Thanks fellas for the replies!

I think it'll come down to either a Defiance or Bighorn!

Just waiting on last email Q/A from respective companies.
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

I have/had Bat,Defiance,Surgeon,Stiller. Defiance would be my choice because of the great CS Jeff & Glen offers.
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

I have had a surgeon and defiance. I still have the surgeon but I really like the defiance actions as well. I don't care for a stiller much
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

I have the Surgeon 591, Stiller Predator, Lawton 7000. Have to say I like the Surgeon the best and am ordering another one for new build.
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

I have a surgeon and a defiance, they are both great actions but the surgeon is by far my favorite. Good luck with your build.
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goin'Hot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goin'Hot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you really want precision, look at BAT machine.</div></div>


snipers hide ...... a website for serious tactical shooter </div></div>

Yep. The serious tactical shooter that runs the super "reliable" and tacticool Jewell trigger.

God forbid you blank a primer or get dirt in you tactical action. If you run a jewell, good chance you're screwed. </div></div>DO you use a BAT in a tactical type gun? I agree witht the jewel trigger thing as I have seen 2 fail on other guys, I have a jewel in my tactical 260 and like it but then again, I shoot it for hobby and my life doesn't depend on it. Fine for that. I have 2 BAT actions but they are just Benchrest rifles. Great actions for that but I wouldn't think they would make great field gun actions. My .02 Good Luck
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

Got a surgeon in 260 and just got a tac 338 stiller from the group buy. The surgeon is my match gun. It kicks ass. The stiller is the Tac 338 so its designed for the 338 lapua. It kicks ass as well. So that means I have 2 kick ass rifles and that kicks ass.

But I also have a few 700p rifles that i've done nothing to in 243 and 308 and they kick ass as well. NOw they are not as nice as the stiller/surgeon stuff but they still hit steel @ the range they are designed for. It all depends on what kinda ass you wanna kick. But to be honest anything past 1000yds if I wanna kick ass I use rifles that are custom ass kickers.

Surgeon: krieger 260 1:8 26" manners t5 surgeon BM
Stiller" Krieger 338LA 1:9.3 28" manners t5 badger cip BM



EDIT Post 100 that kicks ass
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?


I would use a Defiance with AW mags .

I would prefer a Surgeon , BUT they donot make them to run the AW mags .

Later Chris
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

I've got a Stiller in 6.5 Creedmoor. I like the action. It's got a one piece bolt, pinned lug, and a pinned 20moa rail. I do have one issue with it though. While assembling the rifle I noticed that the top of the rail isn't perfectly flat, it's got a little "twist" to it. I contacted Stiller and explained the problem. Their response was that this was not a critical surface but I insisted so they sent me a new rail. The new rail is the same. While they may not think this is a critical surface, I use Badger rings which are designed to pull themselves down tight against the top of the rail, which makes this the most critical surface of the rail in my eyes. If they would machine the top of the rail I would have more Stillers in my safe.
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">oh.....it seems that the latest greatest from still got a one piece bolt also.......just sayin

shiner boch is rather tasty in the triple digit </div></div>

Yep, their new stuff is one piece.

I like the guys over at stiller, good people. Plus, they're close enough that I can just go over there when my stuff is complete.
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

In my experience:

Stick with AICS mags. Don't run AW mags unless you are running an AW.

BATs are too tight for tactical work, but are exceptional actions.

My Surgeon works better now that Moon fixed it to make it eject properly. It still has a bolt handle gap big enough never to cam against the receiver, though.

My Jewell triggers have never failed.

My match gun is now a long action GAP Templar.
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

I run 4 Surgeons and 3 Templars....coin toss. I do like the integral rail on the 591's though. But also like the extractor on the Templar.

Graham, I've never had a Jewell shit the bed either.
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

I like my new to me Surgeon 591 a lot.


Graham, PGS-no Jewell pooping the bed here either. Ever notice that the folks that say Jewells don't work always seem to misspell the name?
wink.gif
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

Our shop has built a thousand rifles on Defiance actions and 500 + on Surgeons, Probably close to a hundred or so Stillers.

They are all great actions. I prefer the Templar (Defiance) becouse of its primary extraction and extractor, the fact that you can go to a flat 20, 15, 30 or even 40 MOA Base. Lefty or Right, ports on either side or both if you want. several different load ramp designs. bullet proof bolt stop, one piece swept bolt handle. finish second to none, flawless customer service, ETC ETC ETC.

Surgeon would be my second choice But it lacks the options of the Defiance actions. Its built like a tank and is very nicely Machined as well. Finish is great but not the Super polished of the Defiance . Many shooters love the Surgeons and they do well in all the matches.

Stiller, They have made some huge Improvements, Their current action has a one piece bolt which is a huge plus, I am not a fan of thier bolt stop ,hopfully that will change soon. just starting to see some of these newer stiller actions comming in and they look really Nice.

Bighorn, we have only had a half dozen through the shop no big issues yet, they do not fit a remington inlet very well and the large tang does not fit many stocks well. That woud be the only real gripe I have with them so far, the design seems good, it takes Ideas from several different actions, I can see Remington, Savage, Winchester, and Surgeon ideas in use in its design.



Hope this helps.

 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hondo64d</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">oh.....it seems that the latest greatest from still got a one piece bolt also.......just sayin

shiner boch is rather tasty in the triple digit </div></div>

Yep, my predator has a one piece bolt.

Rifle should be complete in the next month or so. Can't wait...

DSC01459.jpg



John</div></div>

WOW, this is going to look sweet.

But to the question, I would go either stiller or defiance. JMO
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

I really like the finish of the Templar, it makes the rifle look nice, which is a plus when your spending $4000, but not a necessity. Functionally, you get a few more options with the templar like George said. Oh, and they are smooth as butter.
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

All of mine are blueprinted 700's. If I was to buy a true custom, it would be Surgeon.
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

bolts9-1-10003.jpg

bolts9-1-10002.jpg

bolts9-1-10001.jpg


In this series of photo's the bolt on the left is a Surgeon, the right, a Templar(Defiance). Sorry, I dont have any Stiller bolts to compare.
 
Re: Defiance or Stiller or Surgeon?

I like the Surgeon better based on 3 things.The integral and angled rail,built in recoil lug and that the bolt doesn't bind.They seem to have found the correct balance of tolerance between the bolt and the raceway.Tight but not too tight.

I wish Surgeon made a small version of the XL.I'd rather have the flat bottom.

The bolt binds on my custom 700 with PTG bolt which really sucks especially when I'm in a hurry.
 
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