Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

[TrooperBrian]

I brought in my R700 to get a new Shilen barrel with a .308 dummy round and a 168gr SMK loaded to Standard COAL. But when I got the gun back, I discovered it was almost exactly like my old barrel. Even with 175gr SMKs, it has a bit more than .1" of freebore, almost 1/8th inch with 168SMKs.

I can't load to the lands because the round then won't fit in the magazine. He says "Its a jump that happens in less than a millisecond."

Advice? With that kind of jump and no concentricity tool, I get barely MOA.

 

[71firebird400]

Re: Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

Well you could always bring it to another gunsmith and have the barrel set back a couple threads and rechambered. Personally, I would run very very far away from any gunsmith that says "Its a jump that happens in less than a millisecond"; that's scary.

A point worth mentioning; in my experience the 175 and 168 SMK's have been OK with a huge jump. I have a factory Remington that has almost .2" of jump from the mag length and both bullets work fine for me.

 

[SRT_Supply]

Re: Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

If you're "barely getting MOA", then my bet is that freebore has absolutely nothing to do with the problem. I'd be looking at your scope, trigger, stock, and the rest of your ammo components before I would even begin to dream of blaming the barrel for the lack of performance.

 

[TrooperBrian]

Re: Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Badshot308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did you specify a certain reamer to be used? Your smith may have used whatever .308 chamber reamer he had laying around, possibly something similar to a Remington factory chamber. You might want to give these people a call a discuss a specific reamer for the load you want http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/reamers2.htm . Dave Kiff and his staff can help you out.</div></div>

I had no idea I was supposed to. Isn't that the gunsmith's job?

 

[Hateca]

Re: Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

Giving a rifle builder a dummy round and not specify what the dummy round is to be used for is a miscommunication waiting to happen. You want a round specific to your dummy round call PTG and have them make you a reamer to match.

That being said most builders are going to have very good .308 no turn neck match reamers waiting to be used that will work very well with FGMM or any other factory match ammo.

Stop worrying about touching the lands or getting close to the lands with the .308, it does like to jump and if it can't shoot factory match at 2.80" then what good is it anyway?

Touching, close or jamming is for the high speed little bullets, even then I'm not sure I like a rifle that picky

 

[TrooperBrian]

Re: Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SRT Supply</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you're "barely getting MOA", then my bet is that freebore has absolutely nothing to do with the problem. I'd be looking at your scope, trigger, stock, and the rest of your ammo components before I would even begin to dream of blaming the barrel for the lack of performance.</div></div>

Surely there are other things at play, its not really what I'm concerned with right now. The issue at hand is simply, is this something I should be worried about, as a mistake of the smith?

 

[SRT_Supply]

Re: Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TrooperBrian</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SRT Supply</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you're "barely getting MOA", then my bet is that freebore has absolutely nothing to do with the problem. I'd be looking at your scope, trigger, stock, and the rest of your ammo components before I would even begin to dream of blaming the barrel for the lack of performance.</div></div>

Surely there are other things at play, its not really what I'm concerned with right now. The issue at hand is simply, is this something I should be worried about, as a mistake of the smith?</div></div>

I don't see anywhere in your original post that you clearly specified that the gunsmith needed to cut the chamber to a certain spec. In which case it's hard to blame the 'smith for not doing something he wasn't told to do.

What doesn't make sense to me is why, if you had a rifle that wasn't shooting they way you expected it to, you'd send it in for rebarreling in order to correct a perceived problem with the throat. If my truck engine won't turn over in the morning when I turn the key, I'm going to go check the battery charge - I'm not going to have it towed to a mechanic to have them replace the transmission.

I have no idea what the rest of your rifle system consists of, but I wouldn't even dream of worrying about concentricity and freebore until I had confidence that every other part of the system was up to par. What scope, rings, base, trigger, stock, powder, brass, and primers are you using? When shooting other rifles, what sort of results do you obtain? Have you tried different loads, both factory and handload? I'm making assumptions here due to a lack of information, but it certainly sounds like you're jumping to the conclusion of "replace the transmission!" just because you have a dead battery. You're worrying about something that really doesn't matter, and likely ignoring some other far more relevant issues in the process.

 

[TrooperBrian]

Re: Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SRT Supply</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

You're worrying about something that really doesn't matter, and likely ignoring some other far more relevant issues in the process.</div></div>

That is more like what I'm looking to hear. I changed the barrel because I was going to get it threaded, it wasn't much more to just go ahead and get a quality barrel put on.

If freebore isn't that big of an issue, I'll look into some other loads before I come back to this.

Remington 700 SA
Nightforce NXS 5.5-22x56
Burris XTR 30mm Med Rings
EGW 0MOA Base
Bell/Carlson A5 Stock
Shilen 26" Barrel
Arms Tech Mag Extension
Badger Ord Bolt Handle
Griffin Armament Suppressor

Lapua .308 Brass
Ramshot TAC
Winchester LR Primer
Sierra 168gr SMK

 

[Swan]

Re: Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TrooperBrian</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I brought in my R700 to get a new Shilen barrel with a .308 dummy round and a 168gr SMK loaded to Standard COAL. But when I got the gun back, I discovered it was almost exactly like my old barrel. Even with 175gr SMKs, it has a bit more than .1" of freebore, almost 1/8th inch with 168SMKs.

I can't load to the lands because the round then won't fit in the magazine. He says "Its a jump that happens in less than a millisecond."

Advice? With that kind of jump and no concentricity tool, I get barely MOA. </div></div>

So you took the smith a Shilen barrel, had it chambered, and you can't get less than 1 moa with it? Granted, the 175s and 168s are pretty tolerant to jump, but I'd be more than a little concerned about what the gunsmith did.

And, ya, the whole "jump is less than a millisecond" quote, he's an idiot. Demand your money back and send it off to a competent gunsmith.

edit: just read additional posts. I disagree. If you take some FGMM 168 or 175 and it doesn't shoot less than 1 moa, <span style="font-style: italic">combined</span> with handload testing, I'd be talking to the "gunsmith" that butchered your shit.

 

[TrooperBrian]

Re: Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

And, ya, the whole "jump is less than a millisecond" quote, he's an idiot. Demand your money back and send it off to a competent gunsmith.

edit: just read additional posts. I disagree. If you take some FGMM 168 or 175 and it doesn't shoot less than 1 moa, <span style="font-style: italic">combined</span> with handload testing, I'd be talking to the "gunsmith" that butchered your shit.</div></div>

I almost shit a brick when I heard that line. He followed it with "I can set it back and rechamber it, but I won't absorb that cost. Just shoot it and see."

 

[SRT_Supply]

Re: Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

Forum went down for a few minutes, and lost my reply...

After you got the rifle back, were you only trying that one handload recipe, or did you also shoot some FGMM/Black Hills/Hornady Match etc to see how it was shooting?

And this is a stupid question, but since you're adding not just the new barrel but a suppressor as well, what sort of groups were you seeing with the can off and on? There's a whole 'nother factor there to consider as well.

 

[JSTARSZ]

Re: Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

There is a whole lot going on with this than meets the eye. You have some many variables at work here it is hard to tell you much to do except work at reducing the variables. First off, did you get the action trued when you had the new barrel put on? What was the groups before you started the barrel process? Did you use the same loads for the before and after tests?

I wouldn't worry all that much about the jump as 308 does pretty well with it. Case in point, have you ever measured Federal Gold Match rounds. Federal loads it to 2.775 or thereabouts as well as Black Hills Match rounds. I have spent some time measuring all the match rounds of the manufactures and the one constant I did find is they are all below 2.8 COAL so that tells me they are loading for all types of chambers. If Federal Gold Match is the standard to which we reload then why is there such a jump with Federal? My question then becomes am I a good enough shooter to know the difference between a jumped round or a round close to the lands? I have tried them all and I can't tell the difference other than my rifle likes certain bullets and weights.

 

[2clicks]

Re: Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

Man that's terrible he should have at least asked you what kind of .308 chamber you wanted and explained the difference in the dimensions and applications of the various options. He might only have one reamer, a big fat long hairy reamer from the stone age. Good luck hope it all works out for you!

One thing about jump, its not so much the distance to the lands but the design of the bullet that makes the transition into the lands, I gave up on long seating bullets I load to mag length on everything. I suppose if I were to get a bench rest rest rig I would explore the jamming option. It just seems like too much monkeying around, plus they're near impossible to shoot in rapid fire!!! IMHO.

 

[TrooperBrian]

Re: Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

Well I'm taking it to the range tomorrow with many different flavors of ammo. Range report later.

 

[vman]

Re: Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TrooperBrian</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I can't load to the lands because the round then won't fit in the magazine. He says "Its a jump that happens in less than a millisecond."
</div></div>

Not trying to scare you, but i would shart my pants if a smith said that to me about a rifle i just had a new barrel put on.

I dont see how time is a factor of handload accuracy!

Also, what if you wanted to load VLD projectiles and magazine feed them? Out of the question?

I dunno, I dont operate that way when it comes to work. A jobs a job, I do it the way the client wants it unless my experience says otherwise for the better of the work at hand... and in cases like that, i persuade into seeing things my way.

I hope some load development turns out for you and you end up with a sweet load. Would be a shame to be dissapointed with a new barrel.

 

[fdkay]

Re: Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

Another relevant question that has not been asked:
Are you a consistent sub-moa shooter?

It does not matter how good the tool is, if the trigger monkey isn't capable.

This is not a personal attack, just asking a realistic question.

Personally, I am not a fantastic marksman, I am probably better than average, but not as good as most of the people that populate this site. It does not matter how good my rifle is, the limiting factor is me.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

What this site needs is another thread discussing freebore.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2273413&page=1

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

I had an issue with a 1911 and a 'gunsmith' back when I was just getting back into shooting. I had all the parts from a Series 70 Gold Cup, except a frame, and consigned them to my local/recommended 'smith to assemble them on a frame for me. He used an Auto Ordinance/Thompson frame (no complaints there), and when I got it back in hand it wouldn't feed, and it wouldn't fire.

Taking a lesson to heart from the experience, it was readily apparent that giving said firearm back into said 'gunsmith's' hands was not going to be overly productive. What I did was to inquire around among friends who had some detailed knowledge of 1911's, and employed the project gun as a learning tool. In the process, I learned a lot about what it takes to make a 1911 work well, and how to do it by myself. Basically, a potential tragedy was transformed into a solid masterpiece with the addition of come constructive thought.

I don't know if your resources would allow you to do similarly with your rifle; but if possible, I would take advantage of the situation to learn as much about the process of rectifying any actual problems as I could.

Basically, I approve of your thinking regarding simply upgrading the barrel since you were having barrel work done anyway. Your choice of 'smith and the outcome of that choice is rather less here than there, and more to the point is what is best to do about it. To my mind the issue is less one of competence than of confidence. If you mistrust the 'smith, seek another. Period, skip the recriminations completely. There is no point.

Honestly, I don't see whether there is a real problem traceable to the work or not. I would simply treat the current status as a starting point for improvement. Suggestions about load and rifle component shakedowns make good sense to me as a recipe for progress.

Greg

 

[TrooperBrian]

Re: Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another relevant question that has not been asked:
Are you a consistent sub-moa shooter?

It does not matter how good the tool is, if the trigger monkey isn't capable.

This is not a personal attack, just asking a realistic question.

Personally, I am not a fantastic marksman, I am probably better than average, but not as good as most of the people that populate this site. It does not matter how good my rifle is, the limiting factor is me.</div></div>

It may be entirely possible. Shooting these days has been in near zero temperatures, I'd like to get a lead sled in the future to eliminate any shooter error like...shivering.

This was from the last range session, best 5-shot group was .917".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiOMtHkAfQg

 

[TrooperBrian]

Re: Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Badshot308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What ammo, factory or handloads? .917" ain't that bad if the gun just does not like that particular load. Chances are, with load development or factory match that it likes, you'll get down to .5 or better. </div></div>

Those are handloads, I've been using ILDM to find this particular load, and its shot better than anything else I've used.

Lapua Brass
40.9gr TAC
168gr SMK

I've always shot 168s, there is always the possibility that this barrel just doesn't like 168s.

 

[dmg308]

Re: Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

Try upping your charge weight.I run 43.5 gr of tac with 175s.Tac likes to be run near max.

 

[TrooperBrian]

Re: Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dmg308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Try upping your charge weight.I run 43.5 gr of tac with 175s.Tac likes to be run near max.</div></div>

Yikes, the manual I'm using lists 41.0gr as max on a 175SMK.

 

[TrooperBrian]

Re: Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Badshot308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ramshot has load data of their own http://www.ramshot.com/powders/loadguide/Ramshot_4.4_Load_guide.pdf which differs a bit from what you're seeing in Sierra's Edition V manual. That's common for two different sources to come up with different starting and max loads. That's why you start low and work your way up watching for pressure signs in your rifle. A safe max load in one rifle can be dangerously high in another. One thing to remember too, if you do load development in the cold weather, loads that seem warm now, can become dangerous on a hot summer day. Different powders have different temperature sensitivities. </div></div>

Yes, I suspect I'll probably have to work up new loads in the summer.

This is my personal rifle.

 

[dmg308]

Re: Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

Yeah 41 is way light for TAC.I think when you start getting in the 44gr range good things will happen.As always start around 43 and go up from there.

 

[TrooperBrian]

Re: Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dmg308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah 41 is way light for TAC.I think when you start getting in the 44gr range good things will happen.As always start around 43 and go up from there.</div></div>

I just read Ramshot's guide, looks like Sierra is a lot more conservative in their loads. I'll try some new hotter loads.

 

[Quackaddict]

Re: Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

I had average results with my 308 and 168's, I ended up trying 175's and not liking them and finally tried some 155's and just like that the gun is shooting well. Maybe the new barrel just likes a different bullet weight.

 

[thefitter]

Re: Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

No matter what the cause of the poor groups turns out to be the smith sounds like a tool. Maybe you could have been more specific I don't know but I would never use or recommend him after that last interaction.

I don't think I have ever run into as many prima donnas in any craft/trade or profession as I have with gunsmiths. Some understand the concept of customer service, but others...not so much!

 

[SRT_Supply]

Re: Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

I tried posting this the other day, but the forum keeps going down for me randomly for an hour or so at a time...

You stated earlier that you had the barrel threaded and added a suppressor; have you tried shooting the rifle both with and without the can on? That's a whole 'nother factor that could be completely changing the rifle's performance that I'd be looking at immediately.

Your posts don't give any indication (or I'm just poor at reading comprehension), but have you shot any factory match ammo through the rifle since you got the rifle back? FGMM 168gr is usually a pretty good litmus test of a rifle, and would be my first choice if I suspected something was wrong.

 

[TrooperBrian]

Re: Did my gunsmith destroy my barrel?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SRT Supply</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I tried posting this the other day, but the forum keeps going down for me randomly for an hour or so at a time...

You stated earlier that you had the barrel threaded and added a suppressor; have you tried shooting the rifle both with and without the can on? That's a whole 'nother factor that could be completely changing the rifle's performance that I'd be looking at immediately.

Your posts don't give any indication (or I'm just poor at reading comprehension), but have you shot any factory match ammo through the rifle since you got the rifle back? FGMM 168gr is usually a pretty good litmus test of a rifle, and would be my first choice if I suspected something was wrong.</div></div>

Definitely shoots better with the can off, I only use the can for some long range plinking instead of load development.

Its been a while since I posted back and I guess I forgot to reply to this one. I picked up a rest and will try some FGMM when summer rolls around.