Die/mandrel selection

[Mauser06]

Right now, I'm working with my first precision rifle. 6.5x47L.

I'm looking to utilize my 550 for brass prep.


I THINK I want a custom honed Forster sizing die and an expander mandrel. Already have a floating took head.

The more I read, the less I understand.


Anyone able to help me out on what size to have my Forster neck honed to and what mandrel size I probably want?

Right now, I run a .288" bushing. Fired necks are .293"


Open to other options as well. To utilize the 550, it seems like a custom honed Forster and a mandrel would make some pretty straight ammo.

Thanx!

 

[spife7980]

Have the forest honed to .003-.004 less than loaded round diameter.
The arbor/mandrel will expand it back open to your desired internal diameter of .001-.002 below loaded round diameter.


You can get the forster honed larger to work the brass less but then the arbor doesnt really do anything.

 

[Mauser06]

So loaded rounds are .288"


.284-.285 neck and a... .262-.263" mandrel?

 

[KnowNothing256]

0.262” mandrel, yeah. 21st Century Shooting calls theirs a turning arbor (0.002” under) vs. the expander mandrel (0.001” under). That’s what I use, cheap and the black nitride is a smooth operator.

After I get my next batch sized I’ll be sending my die off for honing, 0.004” under loaded diameter.

 

[Mauser06]

Thanx! I think I'm on the right track.

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

0.262” mandrel, yeah. 21st Century Shooting calls theirs a turning arbor (0.002” under) vs. the expander mandrel (0.001” under). That’s what I use, cheap and the black nitride is a smooth operator.

After I get my next batch sized I’ll be sending my die off for honing, 0.004” under loaded diameter.

This is good info.

So what is the consensus? Is 0.002" under preferable to 0.001" under?

 

[KnowNothing256]

This is good info.

So what is the consensus? Is 0.002" under preferable to 0.001" under?

Some folks have found 0.003” to be more repeatable, I think Scott Satterlee stated that was his experience on the Modern Day Sniper podcast.

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

For 21st Century TiN mandrels I dont think there is a 0.003" under option, so I guess 0.002" is the obvious choice.

 

[KnowNothing256]

PMA has carbide mandrels that are 0.003" under and compatible with 21st's die, but they're $60, so at that point you might as well go K&M.

 

[Herb Stoner]

Good info and, like the OP, its a little confusing to me at times. I'm looking to start using a mandrel die. I've heard good things about Sinclair and 21st Century mandrel dies. Any others to consider? Is there info somewhere on compatibility of mandrels with different brands of dies?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Mauser06]

I went with a .286 bushing and a .262 black nitride mandrel from 21st.

I think I wanna go little tighter..285 or .284 on the neck.

Seating definitely feels more uniform. Not to start that argument. I've seated thousands of bullets on the same press so I have a good idea of what I used to feel.

No concentricty Guage or other measuring tools. I will go down rabbit holes when I feel I need to chase a rabbit. Right now, I think my ammo is sufficient. The nut behind the butt needs to improve.

 

[CK1.0]

Good info and, like the OP, its a little confusing to me at times. I'm looking to start using a mandrel die. I've heard good things about Sinclair and 21st Century mandrel dies. Any others to consider? Is there info somewhere on compatibility of mandrels with different brands of dies?

Thanks in advance!

It can get a little confusing sometimes because some guys use bushing FL dies, and others use regular non-bushing FL dies (that many of them then get custom honed), before hitting the mandrel, but the mandrel part is pretty straight forward... you just decide how much under bullet diameter you want to go...

I can vouch for the Sinclair die/mandrel setup, but as mentioned earlier, unless you're purposely looking for .001" under bullet diameter, you actually don't want their expander mandrel, you want their "turning mandrel" (.002" under bullet diameter) here: https://www.brownells.com/reloading...s/tin-coated-turning-mandrels-prod130717.aspx

- I linked the Ti because I've been using it for a shitload of rounds and it still cleans up like-new, or splurge for the carbide if you prefer, but definitely spend the 10 bucks more over the plain SS. IIRC/FWIW the Sinclair and 21st Centurary stuff is interchangeable.


If you're more into benchrest and/or just like making things a bit more complicated (kidding, sort of) you can venture into the K&M/L.E. Wilson world, or if you're the eccentric long-way-around type the Lee Collet die thing seems intriguing too (I've got no personal experience), but they all pretty much do the same thing.

 

[Herb Stoner]

It can get a little confusing sometimes because some guys use bushing FL dies, and others use regular non-bushing FL dies (that many of them then get custom honed), before hitting the mandrel, but the mandrel part is pretty straight forward... you just decide how much under bullet diameter you want to go...

I can vouch for the Sinclair die/mandrel setup, but as mentioned earlier, unless you're purposely looking for .001" under bullet diameter, you actually don't want their expander mandrel, you want their "turning mandrel" (.002" under bullet diameter) here: https://www.brownells.com/reloading...s/tin-coated-turning-mandrels-prod130717.aspx

- I linked the Ti because I've been using it for a shitload of rounds and it still cleans up like-new, or splurge for the carbide if you prefer, but definitely spend the 10 bucks more over the plain SS. IIRC/FWIW the Sinclair and 21st Centurary stuff is interchangeable.


If you're more into benchrest and/or just like making things a bit more complicated (kidding, sort of) you can venture into the K&M/L.E. Wilson world, or if you're the eccentric long-way-around type the Lee Collet die thing seems intriguing too (but I've got no personal experience with them), but they all pretty much do the same thing...

Thanks for the info - very helpful!

 

[kriller134]

Good info and, like the OP, its a little confusing to me at times. I'm looking to start using a mandrel die. I've heard good things about Sinclair and 21st Century mandrel dies. Any others to consider? Is there info somewhere on compatibility of mandrels with different brands of dies?

Thanks in advance!

I’m using a Sinclair mandrel die gen 2. It works as it should. I started with a ss mandrel, then TiN mandrel, and now I just got a carbide mandrel. All from brownells and all of them are .002” under bullet diameter. I also just ordered a mandrel die from Pma cause brownells is oos of the Sinclair die. It’s nice cause it can use a mandrel from Sinclair and k&m.

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

Some folks have found 0.003” to be more repeatable, I think Scott Satterlee stated that was his experience on the Modern Day Sniper podcast.

So who does a 0.003" mandrel?

 

[6.5SH]

21st Century and KM Precision both have different increments available.

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

21st Century and KM Precision both have different increments available.

I found the 21st century mandels you are referring to on their site, they only offer multiple sizes in stainless, the black nitride and titanium nitride only have 1 version of each caliber available.

I was hoping to pick up the black nitride as the reviews suggest it is the smoothest to use but SS offers the most options by far.

I actually contacted 21st Century and they basically advised me to use SS and avoid the others as they are only for neck turning (even though they offer both black nitride and titanium nitride expander mandrels on their site)

I`m puzzled by their response.

 

[6.5SH]

Sorry if mislead you, the custom sized ones are raw stainless only.

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

Sorry if mislead you, the custom sized ones are raw stainless only.

It's all good, I hadn't really looked at the SS offerings so you enlightened me to the various sizes on offer.

 

[KnowNothing256]

As for the “neck turning only” advice, ignore it. Pretty much everyone goes with the neck turning mandrel for expansion since it’s 0.002” under, vs the expander mandrel which is only 0.001” under. If you wanna use black carbide, go for it, you’ll get almost identical performance on target as a 0.003” under and a much simplified sizing process if you skip neck lube. If you’re gonna tumble after sizing anyway, then go ahead and lube the necks, but only if it’s not an extra step. My method is to spray Hornady One Shot at an angle to get into the necks as I lube the case body. No extra time at all.

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

As for the “neck turning only” advice, ignore it. Pretty much everyone goes with the neck turning mandrel for expansion since it’s 0.002” under, vs the expander mandrel which is only 0.001” under. If you wanna use black carbide, go for it, you’ll get almost identical performance on target as a 0.003” under and a much simplified sizing process if you skip neck lube. If you’re gonna tumble after sizing anyway, then go ahead and lube the necks, but only if it’s not an extra step. My method is to spray Hornady One Shot at an angle to get into the necks as I lube the case body. No extra time at all.

Are the black nitride really so good that you don’t need to lube the necks?! Would this still be the case on freshly annealed brass which is more susceptible to galling?

I have powdered graphite that I could use (so as to avoid lubing again and getting the clean cases sticky).

 

[KnowNothing256]

Are the black nitride really so good that you don’t need to lube the necks?! Would this still be the case on freshly annealed brass which is more susceptible to galling?

I have powdered graphite that I could use (so as to avoid lubing again and getting the clean cases sticky).

Opinions vary, and post-annealing I like to run 'em over a bronze brush to get the oxide knocked loose. Are you going to tumble or otherwise clean after sizing?

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

I typically:

1) Deprime
2) Body size (with a Redding body die - cases are lubed with Dillon case lube)
3) Wet tumble
4) Anneal
5) Size necks (Lee collet neck die)

Case prep complete, roll straight into loading.

I think I’m going to try brushing the neck after annealing like you mention. I’ve seen this mentioned a couple of time recently. Can’t hurt and it’s pretty easy.

 

[KnowNothing256]

I typically:

1) Deprime
2) Body size (with a Redding body die - cases are lubed with Dillon case lube)
3) Wet tumble
4) Anneal
5) Size necks (Lee collet neck die)

Case prep complete, roll straight into loading.

I think I’m going to try brushing the neck after annealing like you mention. I’ve seen this mentioned a couple of time recently. Can’t hurt and it’s pretty easy.

Ah, if you're using the Lee collet neck die, then you aren't lubing necks either, so it's just as efficient as my black nitride neck sizing step. The issue with lubing case necks is that you should find a way to remove the lube after, even if it's graphite, because you can't be consistent with how much is left. Which makes it a pain. My process is moving to:

1) Anneal and brush necks
2) Lube body
3) FL resize with a honed neck and decapping pin installed, no expander ball
4) Wet tumble with dish soap
5) Black nitride mandrel (no lube)
6) Prime, charge, seat

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

Ah, if you're using the Lee collet neck die, then you aren't lubing necks either, so it's just as efficient as my black nitride neck sizing step. The issue with lubing case necks is that you should find a way to remove the lube after, even if it's graphite, because you can't be consistent with how much is left. Which makes it a pain. My process is moving to:

1) Anneal and brush necks
2) Lube body
3) FL resize with a honed neck and decapping pin installed, no expander ball
4) Wet tumble with dish soap
5) Black nitride mandrel (no lube)
6) Prime, charge, seat

That process is with my current 6.5CM, I’m just getting into 6BR and there isn’t a collet die available so I’m looking at my options (bushing vs non bushing), right now I’m leaning towards non bushing.

Without the collet die I’d be inclined to copy your process, Like you I’m not a fan of leaving lube on the necks. I feel like the Dillon lube gives good consistency whereas it’s hard to get the graphite powder to be uniform. My main gripe is that leaving the Dillon lube on the necks leaves them sticky and powder can stick. Don’t know that it makes a difference but I prefer it not to be there.

So the black Nitride are good enough that lube isn’t required?