Difference at 100yrds?

[DirtyRod]

Hey all,

I've been shooting my stock Remmy 700 for about two months working on the fundamentals. I'm pretty consistently shooting 1.1 - 1.5" 3 shot groups at 100yrds with 147gr bulk ammo. My goal is .5" consistently before moving out to 200.

Saturday, a guy in the next lane handed me two 124 gr loads he worked up for his 700. I put those two in a .24 group and the 150gr round he gave me a little farther out for a 3 shot group of .7. Needless to say it was the best group of the day.

Being new to bolt guns I'm wondering if these were just lucky shots or if loading your own can make that much of a difference at 100 yrds. I figured there was a huge difference further out but didn't think I would see any difference at 100.

(Sorry if this is a repost. It thought I posted this last night but I don't see the message.)

 

[bigwheeler]

Re: Difference at 100yrds?

I have found that in all my lighter barreled guns that working up loads is imperative
to finding the guns best accuracy. Heavier barrels seem to be a little more forgiving
but it is still needed.
A couple of shots may or may not be indicative of what the gun can do. You should
get his load data and try it out.

 

[DirtyRod]

Re: Difference at 100yrds?

Interesting. Unfortunately, I don't reload.

 

[nicholst55]

Re: Difference at 100yrds?

The 147 grain bulk ammo you're using probably isn't capable of the accuracy you're striving to obtain. I honestly think that consistent 1" groups are about all you can hope for, and that may even be a bit optimistic.

Have you tried grouping with a known quantity like Federal Gold Medal Match or Black Hills Match? That ammo will give you a better indication of your ability. Shoot some 5-shot groups with Federal GMM and see how you do.

And yes, you can really cut your group size that dramatically by reloading, but it is neither fast nor simple.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Difference at 100yrds?

Concur. 147gr NATO surplus is not intended to do much more than deliver a barrage from multiple rifles. USGI M80 Ball Ammo accuracy spec works out to about 2+MOA; so with 1+-1.5MOA groups like yours, you're actually doing a bit better than spec.

The NRA 100yd slow fire target has a ten ring of about 1 3/4", so a bullet cutting the line from the outside is maintaining an accuracy goal of just a hair more than 2MOA. The rifle and your diligence make up the difference between what you're shooting and the expectations of MilSpec ammo. Your rifle simply deserves better ammo.

I suspect that if you were to get hold of some .308 match ammunition, you'd be seeing grouping a lot more like what you saw from those handloads.

So, to answer your question directly; yes, it makes that much difference. If your interests are geared toward a lot of shooting; and your goals require good accuracy, then handloading becomes a given for reasons of both accuracy and affordability.

Greg

 

[Victor N TN]

Re: Difference at 100yrds?

While I was at the range yesterday working on a new hunting load for my 26-06, my oldest son-in-law shot his rifle & factory ammo across the chronograph while I was taking a break.

He shot 4, 10 shot groups with Extreme Spreads of:
224.7----- 1020----- 59.8----- 44.2

Standard Deviation on the same groups:
84.5----- 438.9----- 25.8----- 17.8

Average Deviation of the same groups:
62.7----- 313.3----- 21.2----- 13.6


For the 7 groups I shot the numbers looked like this: Extreme Spread
28.2----- 20.9----- 34.3----- 29.5----- 20.0----- 41.7----- 48.6

Standard Deviation of the same:
13.1----- 7.7----- 14.7----- 11.4----- 7.3----- 18.2----- 19.0

Average Deviation of the same groups:
11.0----- 5.0----- 12.2----- 7.7----- 5.1----- 14.9----- 14.9

The 3 best groups at 100 yards were 0.418",----- 0.736"----- and 1.253"

This is from a mid seventies Rem 700 with the factory barrel with close to 4000 rounds downrange. My son-in-law's rifle is a new Stainless 700 w/ synthetic stock. Less than 200 rounds for count.

There are <span style="font-weight: bold">NO typographical errors</span> on these groups. Look at the factory numbers again.

Looking at these numbers can you doubt the better groups from handloading?

 

[gnfiter3]

Re: Difference at 100yrds?

Do you think the data on that facory ammo is typical of all, but the match factory? It's been a few minutes from the last time I fired anything I didn't load other than Blk. Hills Red and Blue Box. BH is suppose to have some exceptional QC.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Difference at 100yrds?

Ammos are like teas. They are all unique. What you read is about what it's written about, sometimes.

 

[Sig685]

Re: Difference at 100yrds?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ammos are like teas. They are all unique. What you read is about what it's written about, sometimes. </div></div>

Greg, I enjoy reading your posts, but frankly the above has me confused.

Ammo is like tea? Hot and wet or iced and wet?


The benefit of handloading for a particular rifle is that it allows on to tailor a load for the perceived needs, with that specific rifle; be it accuracy, cost effectiveness, long range, or hunting a particular game. It is possible to fulfill many of the goals I stated in one handload, but that requires time, patience, acquired skills and money. The money is for quality tools and quality components.

I do not believe that constant high quality match ammunition can be handloaded by everyone and certainly not at first. It takes time to learn how to do this and it takes a high degree of attention to detail.

All this to say that urging everyone to just read a book and they will immediately turn out quality match ammo within a few days is not reality. I think match handloading is as much a hobby, a pursuit if you will, as competition shooting.

To the OP; I think you are doing fine at 100 yards, and I would urge you to go for longer distances right away. Do not wait to reach a goal that is not possible to attain, instead try to only double the group sizes that you will get at 200 yards. If you are shooting at 1.5 MOA now, try to stay at 1.5 MOA at 200 yards and beyond. Remember; NRA (non F-class) competition has a 2 MOA 10-ring.

Edited to add: And by all means, try some quality factory match ammo, but it will cost you. So learn to shoot deliberately and make every shot you fire, the very best shot you can produce.

 

[ChadTRG42]

Re: Difference at 100yrds?

Factory ammo is made to function in all firearms in that caliber. Custom ammo loaded to your rifle will out shoot and provide better (tighter) velocity numbers for those longer range shots. So, yes, ammo loaded to your rifle is night and day different from factory ammo.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Difference at 100yrds?

I guess that response lacked true clarity.

I mean that ammos, like teas, are not only different between brands and varieties, they are even different between lots. Similarities are more approximations than precise matches. It pays not to think about factory ammos, for the most part, in truly precise terms.

Handloading, like marksmanship, takes time and repetition to perfect, but you'll never get there with either if you don't start.

Greg

 

[Sig685]

Re: Difference at 100yrds?

I absolutely agree with everything you just wrote.

I think the last sentence bears repeating again and again but I'm not sure people understand about goal setting and realistic expectations.

This is why we hear such things as "difference between night and day" comparing factory ammo and handloads and that sets false expectations in my opinion. Another way of expressing that would be "bullsh*t," on such somments.

The OP is not going to get quarter or half MOA groups by going to handloads tomorrow with the setup he has now. That is just not going to happen. He will get tighter groups with less flyers by using quality match ammo, but to be able to experience a "night and day difference" a whole host of things need to occur. And this is where what Greg wrote is critical to keep in mind: "Handloading, like marksmanship, takes time and repetition to perfect."

It also takes money and dedication. And just like different lots of the same ammo have variations, so do different lots of components. This is where you need to buy in bulk; powder by the brace of 8 pound jugs, primers by the multi-thousands, brass by the thousand, and bullets by the multi-thousands also.

If you buy in small quantities you will suffer the same variations as different lots of the same ammo.

You have to keep track of everything and take copious notes and follow the same procedure every time.

Loading consistent high-grade match ammo is more than just assembling components and thinking that you can easily do better than quality factory match ammo is just not reality.

Now, Greg did have another part to his emminently quotable statement: "but you'll never get there with either if you don't start." That is also very true, but one must understand this is a commitment for both aspects.

So by all means, urge people to develop marksmanship skills along with handloading skills, but you need to set the proper expectations. Neither happen overnight.

 

[918v]

Re: Difference at 100yrds?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DirtyRod</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Being new to bolt guns I'm wondering if these were just lucky shots or if loading your own can make that much of a difference at 100 yrds.</div></div>

Surplus ammo is less accurate than handloads, generally. My rifle shoots no-name surplus stuff into 1.5" groups too. My rifle shoots factory Hornady match ammo into .5" or less at 100 yards. I cannot better this performance with handloads, although I can duplicate this performance for half the cost.

But the best thing about handloading is having it your way. With factory ammo you are stuck with their components. Factory hunting ammo isn't too accurate, generally, but you can get much closer to .5" handloading hunting bullets.

 

[Victor N TN]

Re: Difference at 100yrds?

The ammo my son-in-law was shooting was off the shelf 100 grain Remington ammo. It's all that has been available locally for a couple of months. I have seen variations in muzzle velocities before. But I don't remember any showing this big of a difference. 22lr ammo sometimes has some big differences. But this is a lot for a centerfire rifle.

I forgot something...

To touch base on the mil surplus ammo. I'm not sure about the spec's on ammo today. But in the 1970s and 1980s the standard for regular ball ammo made in the U. S. was 3.0" or less at 100 meters.

 

[gnfiter3]

Re: Difference at 100yrds?

DirtyRod probably has the answer to his question in all this by now. Reloading can, and very/most often does make a difference at 100 yds., and therfore at extended ranges. All the questions that appear here have the same answer regarding reloading. It cost less over time, you will shoot more and get better because of that. Assuming you're actually practicing improving technique. It is safe, if you exercise the appropriate level of attention to detail.The ammo is better than factory, becuase, you tailor it to the rifle/gun you're shooting. It's basically a win/win situation, and there are not many win/win situations in life.

The only time I can think of where loading isn't the best, is when you don't shoot enough to justify the start-up expense. I shoot for 40% less than buying retail. May get better if I buy components in larger quantities, as stated above. Reducing variances due to changes in lots.

Sig685, you're on the mark, IMHO. Bottom line, you still get out, what you put in. Freaked out Sunday when I saw a guy with an SR-25 shooting, surplus garbage (looked like the whole case was copper or something)through it. I figure, he'll never get the value out of it using that stuff. Yet, I suppose there's a value in even that.

Have to close with this comment. This site is a wealth of great information. Again, like going to school, and enjoying all the classes and subject matter. I have gained a great deal in reviewing post here. I didn't realize what a science reloading was, I was just happy saving money on all the calibers I load. Now, thanks to guys who introduced me to the OCW, chrnoy evaluations, etc. GREAT SITE!!

 

[deadlyswift]

Re: Difference at 100yrds?

Greg and sig685 said it best. If you are looking to shoot .5moa it can be done with match ammo. The question is from lot to lot of ammo how often can you shoot .5moa. As Sig685 said you can run into the same problem when buying componets to laod. Here is an Example. I use a lot of varget powder and chamber pressures do vary from lot to lot of powder. Like Sig said buy in bulk when buying componets to load. Now with that being said and as to someone just getting started into reloading I wouldn't buy in bulk nor would I buy a lot of tools that you are not sure how to use them or what there pupose is for. For someone that is thinking about getting into reloading. As Greg likes to do I would use one phase. Aim small miss small. Meaning Start with a simple beginers kit such as the rockchucker surpreme kit or something like that. Get your basics down. As you learn and get more experience then you can start looking into your bushing dies, sorting brass, case volume, uniformilty of brass prep and on and on and on lol! Reloading and shooting do go hand and hand, but handloading is a separate hobby all together. Remember one thing we all had to at some point start at the beginning and ask what some may think are silly questions but we all have asked them. It's how you learn. I started loading back in the 90s then took a break for 5 or 6yrs due my daughter being born. Now that she is of age to where she is into dance and all the girly stuff, and hangs out with mom, I have got back into my loading and shooting. The internet does provide a lot faster resource to get info something I didn't have back in the 90s! Go ahead and introduce yourself to handloading and precision shooting. It's a great sport! Even if do it just for fun!

 

[DirtyRod]

Re: Difference at 100yrds?

Thank you all!! I really appreciate the education and the advice. I don't think I'm ready to get into handloading yet so I will at least look into better ammo and I'm sure the price will scare me into handloading at some point. I'll also reset my expectations for the factory and bulk rounds and experiment some at 200 as well.

Because I figured it would be a long time before I needed any match grade ammo I bought 3k rounds of bulk and Wolf and still have over 2500 rounds to figure out what to do with.

Thanx again for all the info.

 

[Downzero]

Re: Difference at 100yrds?

Don't waste your time or money on factory ammo. You're already a better shooter than any factory ammo. Get yourself a press. Trust me, it'll be worth it.

 

[gnfiter3]

Re: Difference at 100yrds?

Well, he already invested in 3K rounds. What does that cost? More than the start-up for reloading??

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Difference at 100yrds?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gnfiter3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, he already invested in 3K rounds. What does that cost? More than the start-up for reloading?? </div></div>

Definately more than the startup to reload, and a great excuse to get a nice battle rifle

DirtyRod-Scottmilk9 puts on a monthly Precision Rifle match at Phoenix Rod and Gun Club. If you get some decent non-FMJ ammo come on out and try it. We like to see new faces and refuse to buy the "I've never shot that far so I don't want to try it" excuse. Getting out and doing it will teach you more in one Sunday morning than a month of shooting at 100 will. All you need is usually 50rds of good ammo and a 100yd zero-someone will help you with your dope at distance.
Hell I need some good milsurp 308, I've got 100rds of 168FGMM I'd trade you for some of that 3K surplus you have already!

 

[Grump]

Re: Difference at 100yrds?

I'd suggest selling 1K of the Wolf and using the proceeds towards a reloading rig. A single stage press, one set of good dies (I'm not convinced that there are any BAD ones these days) and shellholder, powder measure, scale, powder funnel, primer flipper, and a Lee primer seating tool if the press doesn't have a seating function.

I believe the RCBS Rock Chucker combo has all of that for less than $300.00. Your first $300.00 worth of reloading components will make ammo that would have cost $600 or more in the factory boxes, so that's your breakeven point. Budget $50/month on the reloading stuff but plan to spend $75/month...and you're ahead by month 12.

 

[CCooper]

Re: Difference at 100yrds?

DirtyRod, if you don't want to do the reloading route yet (you will later!), do a search on the net for Federal Gold Medal Match 168 or 175 grain match ammo. If your not shooting farther than 600 yards, get the 168's, past that 175's. I reload for all my guns except 308's, because it's hard for me to beat FGMM without spending a lot of time on it. Ammoman.com used to have good prices, but I have not bought any for a while. Good luck

 

[DirtyRod]

Re: Difference at 100yrds?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gnfiter3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, he already invested in 3K rounds. What does that cost? More than the start-up for reloading?? </div></div>

Definately more than the startup to reload, and a great excuse to get a nice battle rifle

DirtyRod-Scottmilk9 puts on a monthly Precision Rifle match at Phoenix Rod and Gun Club. If you get some decent non-FMJ ammo come on out and try it. We like to see new faces and refuse to buy the "I've never shot that far so I don't want to try it" excuse. Getting out and doing it will teach you more in one Sunday morning than a month of shooting at 100 will. All you need is usually 50rds of good ammo and a 100yd zero-someone will help you with your dope at distance.
Hell I need some good milsurp 308, I've got 100rds of 168FGMM I'd trade you for some of that 3K surplus you have already! </div></div>

Looks like I'll be trading or selling off some Wolf. I'll keep the surplus for my HK-91. I'll look up that match and come out and try and learn something.

 

[DirtyRod]

Re: Difference at 100yrds?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CCooper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DirtyRod, if you don't want to do the reloading route yet (you will later!), do a search on the net for Federal Gold Medal Match 168 or 175 grain match ammo. If your not shooting farther than 600 yards, get the 168's, past that 175's. I reload for all my guns except 308's, because it's hard for me to beat FGMM without spending a lot of time on it. Ammoman.com used to have good prices, but I have not bought any for a while. Good luck </div></div>

Will do and thanx for the advice.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Difference at 100yrds?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DirtyRod</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Looks like I'll be trading or selling off some Wolf. I'll keep the surplus for my HK-91. I'll look up that match and come out and try and learn something. </div></div>

Keep an eye on the "Competitions" forum or LRPRS.com
Scott usually posts info the week or two ahead of time.

 

[Shrike]

Re: Difference at 100yrds?

Yep! I'll second those who suggested reloading. It is fun! It's all about tolerances. You control the tolerances when you reload and don't have to wonder about the factory's.

-Erik

 

[gnfiter3]

Re: Difference at 100yrds?

The more serious a shooter becomes; the easier the reloading decision becomes. If DR keeps shooting, he'll be loading soon enough.