Gunsmithing Different ways of truing a rem 700 action??

[skeetlee]

I will be faced with a decision here before long as to how i would like my smith to true my rem 700 action. I am no machinist so please bear with me as i try to explain. Ok i know that Dave Kiff has designed a jig that makes truing a rem 700 action a lot simpler and a lot less expensive. I think it has to do with a single point truing or cutting of the threads and what ever else. then i guess there is the good old fashion way. My smith has given me his opinion and i have 100% percent confidence in what he has told me. Bottom line though is that he himself doesnt really know if one is better than the other. He doesnt see how the jig method could be as good but he told me a lot of top named smiths are doing it that way.
I am not asking you guys what i should do, as i will talk that over with my smith before we do the job and will decide this together. What i am asking is, or has anyone had an action done both ways and if so could you tell any difference in performance. The jig method is about 100 bucks cheaper as there isn't as much set up time involved. 100 bucks is a lot of cash to me. As most of you know i like to talk shop so i thought this might be a good conversation piece. Who want to start! Thanks as always fellas!! Lee

 

[Hateca]

Re: Different ways of truing a rem 700 action??

$100 cheaper, how much is the charge for truing the action both ways?

I'm not really going to say which way is better because this is all relative to what your expectations are, and what the rifle is built to do, and what the rifle is built for. Plus just saying one way or another is better or just as good as the other has a tendency to start a shit storm, mostly from guys that have only read about it on the internet.

I will say you can get away with a whole lot in a Remington receiver and still have a tack driving rifle if you use a good barrel and it's chambered correctly.

 

[skeetlee]

Re: Different ways of truing a rem 700 action??

I dont remember the exact prices. I think the jig method was around 150 bucks? I could be wrong though. Seems to me that there was at least 100 difference maybe a bit more. Lee

PS I dont want this to turn into an argument. I just wanted something to talk about this evening. Lee

 

[Hooper]

Re: Different ways of truing a rem 700 action??

Are these "Jigs" like the Manson type piloted truing tools?

 

[300sniper]

Re: Different ways of truing a rem 700 action??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hooper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are these "Jigs" like the Manson type piloted truing tools?

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that is the impression i'm getting.

 

[DMann]

Re: Different ways of truing a rem 700 action??

Just a couple of observations - using the piloted tooling like the Manson or PTG, you have the receiver clamped in a bench vise and the cutting tool being turned by one man's muscle power with concentricity controlled by the removable cone-shaped bushings and the pilot rod being perfectly centered in the receiver and basically hoping all has lined up and square as it should be.

In the lathe method, your receiver is held captive by several hundred or even thousand pounds of machinery with concentricity being guaranteed by mechanical precision to four decimal places or so depending on set-up.

Don't get me wrong, both Manson and Kiff make very very good tools, but I daresay the ability of producing the most precise truing to the tightest tolerances/clearances on a consistent basis, has to go to the fixtured lathe method - if only because you remove more chances for human error to enter into the equation.

Still, as Randy said, there is much that can be done by a bone stock Remington that by all rights shouldn't shoot. Sometimes the planets align and the various stresses stack so as to offset each other or whatever happens, but the darn thing will just shoot bugholes.

Luckily, I have one of those.

Either method can produce a fine rifle, but remember, sometimes cheap is too expensive.

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: Different ways of truing a rem 700 action??

Hi if you are short on cash have the bolt lugs lapped and the action faced the rifle will likley shoot realy well with these 2 small things a lot of rem actions have faces that look like they are faced with a drop saw. i would not worry about the diferences in the 2 operations if you are going to make this into the best action you will also want a bolt that is fitted to the reciever more money to go with the truing process and if you have it trued and replace the bolt to get it up to br specs you may as well buy a lawton or stillar clone.

If you want it trued i use the Kiff mandrel system and it works well and you have the action lugs squared nicley to the centre of the boltway then the threads are opened up 10 thou and you then face the action on the mandrel/tap to the centreline of the action. I dont know if it is measurable if you are using the factory bolt if it is single point cut ot done on the mandrels as you still have a rem bolt with slop in the raceway but if the cases are sized correctly their are no problems as the cartrige holds the lugs back in the correct position.

As i stated up first if you are running on a small budget have the lugs lapped and the action faced and replaced with a surface ground one the rem one cae be used if it has been ground aswell.

 

[skeetlee]

Re: Different ways of truing a rem 700 action??

Wild Bill
This is kinda my hole point to the question. If i were to put an extra 200-250 bucks into the action by having it trued to exact Torrance's i might as well buy another stiller or Lawton. I have both and like both very much. I would assume that the Kiff Jig my smith has is used in a lathe. I dont know that for sure but i would have to think this. My smith is very good at what he does and is very particular. He will do my action either way i want it done. He suggest doing it what i call the "old fashion way". But thats his nature. He is a professional and likes things to be done top notch. I just dont know how much money i want to put into a rem 700. If i do do this the rifle will most likely be a hunting rifle anyway, as i buy custom action for anything precision. Please excuse my ignorance as far as proper wording while i try to explain my questions. I have zero machining experience, so my terminology isn't proper. I thought this might be an interesting topic and i thought it might help me make up my mind as to how much i would be willing to put into a rem 700 action.
I have a good friend that used to do his own machine work and he has done several rifles for himself on plain old stock rem 700 actions with custom barrels and he swears that he cant tell one bit of difference in a varmint or hunting type rifle. I am not so sure i am willing to take that kind of a risk. But knowing what my friend has told me, I would have to think the Kiff Jig method would be ok for my situation. Thanks fellas for sharing as i just really like to talk about things like this. Have a great Sunday, Im off to bed! Lee

 

[Phil1]

Re: Different ways of truing a rem 700 action??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wild_Bill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hi if you are short on cash have the bolt lugs lapped and the action faced the rifle will likley shoot realy well with these 2 small things a lot of rem actions have faces that look like they are faced with a drop saw. i would not worry about the diferences in the 2 operations if you are going to make this into the best action

As i stated up first if you are running on a small budget have the lugs lapped and the action faced .

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+1 abet reciever trued.

Unless a gunsmith did 10 of each style of action trueing you are not going to get an answer to your question. Doing one of each style is an insufficent number of study objects to deal with all of the other varables of bullet/rifle accuracy outside of the action itself.

If $100 is an issue go with the cheapest. When trueing a action you eliminate the biggest factors within the action that lead to inaccuracy on a cost basis(cheapest fix first). If ultimate accuracy is needed and $$ is no object- the custom action is usually cheapest.

There are all kinds of posts here and elsewhere about trigger adjustment (rem 700) lapping the lugs and pillar bedding. If you are at all mechanically inclined and cost is an issue you should do all of those yourself and see how it shoots. If you handload with a factory bbl., you should be in the 2/3 moa range right there, prehaps 1/2 moa. At that point if more accuracy is needed i'd go with a custom bbl.

 

[skeetlee]

Re: Different ways of truing a rem 700 action??

Money usually isn't an issue depending on what i am wanting to accomplish. If i am building a rifle to compete with, i go custom, if i am building a rifle to hunt coyotes with i will use a rem 700 if i have one on hand, and i usually do. My hole question or point to any of this isnt to compare a rem 700 to a custom action. I was just interested in some opinions about truing a rem 700 with a Kiff jig. I make all my final decisions with my smith as i trust him very much. I also think it is important to have a good relationship with your rifle builder and not necessarily listen to what everyone else has to say. I however like to talk shop as it interest me very much. My smith said i will be fine whatever direction i decide to go. I wanted to hear how some of you folks think about your actions if you have ever trued or had one trued with the Kiff jig, or similar process. I can already tell you i am going to have my smith use the Kiff jig when it comes time for me to build another hunting rifle, so i am not asking you fellas to help me make up my mind. I was just kinda interested in a friendly debate concerning one method over the other. Like i said this stuff interest me and i like to read and learn from what i read. Hope all that makes at least a little since!! LOL!!!!! Thanks fellas! Lee

 

[tansinator]

Re: Different ways of truing a rem 700 action??

Not to be a smart-ass, but....every factory Remington I've shot and owned will kill a coyote, deer, pig with ease. No custom work needed, other than maybe a trigger job. If money is the deal, just work up loads and your accuracy should be less than MOA with a factory rifle and a trigger job. JMHO

Eddie