Gunsmithing DIY savage bolt lift kit...

AXEMAN

AXEMAN

General Nuisance
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 17, 2009
5,033
6
kansas, topeka
#1
so... i got time. oh just because i do this, dont think its all as it should be. i read a bunch of stuff and this is what i came up with. dont just do this and not research on your own. im pretty sure this is how its done, but if not, someone will say something. there are things im fuzzy about, so...


first i need a 5/32" ball bearing. ever notice in hogans heros they always wanted to bomb the ball bearing plant? any way, that and a spent 38 shell casing. knock out the primer, clean out the pocket and i red loctited the ball bearing in place...

4393646425_7476b5fb6e_b.jpg


next you gotta cut it. i dont have a lathe, but i have a big honking drill. chuck up the case and then look for that hobby saw that i have had for 15 years and NEVER used, lol

4394414374_604082ec50_b.jpg


there it is

4393649167_37feb42a99_b.jpg


press saw to case and spin drill...

4394417200_7bd235f5b3_b.jpg


and then its cut. i got lucky and just laid the saw on the case. i was really close to the thick base of the case. no wait, i meant to do that. im just that good, lol, no really it was blind luck. flip it over and run it on a file and its ready to go

4393663035_226334b123_b.jpg


now remember this measurement, the thickness is 0.173"ish

4394391758_9d141fd7e4_b.jpg


now i just backed out my bolt assembly screw

4394515616_1177746075_b.jpg


thats where it goes. look at the BAS on the outer edges you see where its sorta polished. im pretty sure thats where the cocking sleeve rode on the BAS during the cocking cycle. now contact is reduced to the bearing touching the center of the BAS. drop of oil or light grease.

4393751635_0f2ebf62d4_b.jpg


4393750239_d753810432_b.jpg


sorry the pictures suck. i make retake them, they arent as sharp as i like. ok drop it in and decock the action, start the bolt assembly screw (BAS) a few turns, and recock. i used a wood dowel. then tighten the BAS and you are done. now you are supposed to trim the BAS or the cocking piece sleeve the thickness of the dealy you just made. i think... but im not sure if its the total thickness, or the thickness of the rim and the little bit of ball bearing that protrudes out of the primer pocket. when i find out for sure i will do it. but as it sits, its back together, it cycles fine. it functions fine. i understand that the extra what ever is extra spring compression and thats more tension and that may negate some of the benefit of doing this, but its nothing i cant do later when i get a definate answer on the amount to remove... but there you go...


now in my mind, i would not try to shorten the bottom of the BAS unless i had a mill or someone to do it on a mill or lathe as it need to be square and smooth since the bearing pivots on it. id trim the cocking sleeve but id still want a lathe or mill for a square cut. but thats just me, i am not a machinist, just a tinkerer. have fun. this cost me ... a quarter. my buddy bought me the bearing while he was out looking for a pin vise. i think he overcharged me. oh, one guy said he drilled out the primer pocket, tapped it and then used an allen set screw. rounded the tip and used that instead of the ball bearing.


 
#3
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

it was at the local ace or true value. they are in there somewhere in a bin, but just ask one of the parts monkeys or you will be pulling open little drawers all day. didnt seem hard to find. ill sell you one for a dollar
smile.gif
 
#5
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

from what i am reading, most people are trimming the bas, but i'm not so sure i wouldn't do the cocking sleeve. i will have to do some measuring to make sure there is nothing that will interfere with that.
 
#6
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

Lightens bolt lift. Regrinding the cocking ramp angles is also supposed to make a lot of difference. I'm looking for the angles to get a local smith to do it.
Even with the lift kit you still have a fair bit of friction in many of these guns. It IS worth doing, it IS easy.
 
#8
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

I've done this on a couple of my Savages. You want to trim either the BAS (Big Ass Screw), or the cocking sleeve the thickness of the brass rim and the bearing protrusion. So in the picture posted above, measure from the bottom of the rim to the top of the bearing. Also, if you decide to trim the cocking sleeve (that's what I do), then smooth up the bottom of the BAS. Mine have all had machining marks in the center. This is where the bearing is going to twist while you work the action. It really shouldn't matter but with all the work you're doing, might as well go that extra 10%.

Great pics and write up.

Mike
 
#9
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

Is savageshooters.com still a good source of this stuff? Used to be when I was running Salvages.

The DIY stuff makes good improvements, but if you want a Savage that runs the best it can call Lisa a SSS and see if you can get your action into Fred M's hands. I'm sure there are other 'smiths that are competent at the Savage timing stuff, but Fred's been doing it quite a while with great results.

Hobby stores have little bags of bearings......


Did you shoot that thing yet AXE?
 
#10
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

no, but i got a $155 for that old new barrel. that drops the shillens cost to a buck and a quarter, SWEET! after i get a definite 30 ft-lbs at least on the barrel nut, ill shoot it. the whole receiver, nut and lug spins when the barrel is in a clamp, so i have to open up the other set of blocks and clamp the receiver while i try to tighten the nut and hope the bbl dont spin. thats todays project. i will polish the BAS too. i need to look at it and see how i can polish it and keep it flat.

also, if its the rim thickness and the tip of the bearing that i need to trim to compensate for, im not gonna worry about that. as minute as that is, it doesnt inferfere with cycling or action. ill pop a few primed cases in and see if the pin still pops them and im calling it good. plus i figure after i smooth out the bottom of the BAS, thats gonna get me closer.

Chris T, look at the pictures and read the text where i am holding the bolt and dropping this in, its basically a way to reduce friction and make the cocking action smoother. this and polishing a few spots on the bolt and i have found that the "feel" is better. plus...i was bobred and i had all this stuff... and i saved $7.25, lol
 
#12
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

Hey dolomite,
as i have posted on savageshooters, it's great what you're doing and again i would gladly help support your work if and when you decide that you need more opinions and testing on your new kit. Thanks for any responses you have posted on my questions and threads on savageshooters.
 
#13
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

Cleaning up my posts.

BTW, did I send you one of my (not like they are mine) kits like the one OP posted about? If not PM me you address and I'll get one out to you when I feel better.

Dolomite
 
#14
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

Hey Dolomite,

Having read your post over on SSF, I think that the real application for your spacer would be in conjunction with the above mentioned method or with the manufactured lift kit from Stockade or SSS. You see, with your BAS spacer installed, one would not need to trim the cocking piece or BAS to account for the space used up by the ball bearing lift kits. which would effectively reduce the spring preload pressure back to factory specs, but now the bearing point is a ball rather than the flat edge of the cocking piece.

At the same time using a ball kit with your spacer would reduce the reliability issues your system causes (as evidenced by the light primer strikes shown in your pictures, and the statement you made about it not working with "hard" primers). The addition of your spacer to the above 38 case ball bearing method would make the a true "drop in" "do it yourself" solution; that would allow one to return the bolt to unmodified factory spec for resale without having to replace any components. Or one could simply by the lift kit from Stockade and pick up the spacer from you if they were not inclined to make their own lift kit.

Unless I completely misunderstood what your idea does?

BTW:
Axeman or anyone else who is doing the lift kit themselves: I have found it to be advantageous in reducing lift to drill a hole in the center of the BAS, that is slightly larger in DIA than the bearing used and about 1/16" deep to create a concave surface for the ball to ride in. But I have always used the purchased kit, so I don't know how far the bearing sticks out of the 38 case head. Basically you want about .005 between the case head and the BAS. I believe the reason it increases effectiveness is that it aids in retention of bearing grease and reduces the surface stress on both the BAS and the bearing. Regardless of the why, it improves the lift on all of my savages. And all of my actions are professionally timed/trued, so would imagine the affects would be that much more noticeable on factory tuned actions.
 
#15
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

oh and the mod that jumped you, that was good old Fred from SSS in all his self important glory. Disregard him, he has essentially turned SSF into his personal marketing tool and is a prick to boot. I have an action tuned by him (when I was new to savages and believed his hype), and several tuned by Kevin rayhill from Stockade. If you want to talk to someone who knows savages like he was born with one in his hand, and builds them like they were his invention, talk to Kevin. If you want to get half ass answers/service and the runaround from a self important, self proclaimed savage guru, go ahead and deal with Fred.

For all the Fred fans
The above post is my opinion based on my experiences, if you don't like it, call someone who cares.
 
#16
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

YEA VERILY!!!

Although Dolomite had some misfires, he was using a shortened
spring.
Due to the weather, I was unable to make it to the range, that being said, The effort to cock the bolt with the kit installed, I have no doubt that I would not had any misfires.


I talked to Dolomite on the phone today, and although things fell
through on Savage Shooters, He really came up with some neat idea's.
I was one of the "Tester's" there and I think we are going to see
some slick Savage Actions soon.


LeeH
 
#17
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

After having the cobwebs knocked clear in my memory, jr's right-Kevin at stockade knows his way around savages.

I had a Savage that Fred timed and it was slick. I had a later Savage that I wanted timed and I got on a wait list and haven't gotten a call yet (rifle's been cone a couple years).
 
#21
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

I installed one of the .38/.357 kits from Dolomite in a 111 LA
in 25-06 with no grinding of the BAS and could not tell any difference other than the bolt lift was reduced by half.
Not being to make it to the range, I did pop a lot of different
primers it this rifle including GI,CCI,Remington and Privi.
They all went "BANG".
 
#22
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

I for one am glad to see this kind of information being shared. While my 10FPLE was fairly smooth at the very beginning, it still could have been improved to help work the action quicker. I like for my movement to reload to be as subtle as possible.

I had taken my bolt assembly apart and did some polishing on all the parts that looked like they were making serious contact... while the improvement wasn't "lift kit" substantial, it did infact help things along quite a bit. Seems as if I had kinda the right idea, just didn't bomb the bearing factory...

Thanks for the ideas and information!!

DK
 
#23
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: z71rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I for one am glad to see this kind of information being shared. While my 10FPLE was fairly smooth at the very beginning, it still could have been improved to help work the action quicker. I like for my movement to reload to be as subtle as possible.

I had taken my bolt assembly apart and did some polishing on all the parts that looked like they were making serious contact... while the improvement wasn't "lift kit" substantial, it did infact help things along quite a bit. Seems as if I had kinda the right idea, just didn't bomb the bearing factory...

Thanks for the ideas and information!!

DK </div></div>

Email me your address at [email protected] and I'll send you one of my 38 special kits when I get a good day. Rather than using a ball bearing I drilled and tapped the casing for a 10-32 set screw with a pointed tip. It is a little less area than the ball bearing so it does help. Another thing about mine is they are only .075" thick so there is no need to remove material from the BAS or the cocking sleeve because that is such a small amount. Now if you wanted to you could use a washer between the BAS and the bolt handle that is .075" to make up for it if you were concerned about it.

Here are a few pictures of a completed one:
S5001346.jpg

S5001347.jpg

S5001348.jpg



Dolomite


 
#26
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

Dolomite, I'd love to help you out with the pics, but the Savages are no longer around. I got into Remingtons-they're not bad, once you get the actions trued and a good barrel installed they will shoot almost as good as the Savages do outta the box
wink.gif


Actually I went to the R700 camp back when their wasn't crap for aftermarket support for Savages.
If I come across a good one I'll snag another Savage.......
 
#27
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wouldnt mess with cam angles </div></div>

No one is asking you to.
Why wouldn't you though? Do you know why they are changed as part of an action job?
I am not aware of any local smith who knows the angles, I'm not paying for my guns to be used for testing. I WILL supply specs and get it done though.
 
#28
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dolomite_Supafly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I have been on savageshooters for some time and I have came up with another version that is going to be a bit better, not accordig to me but to a few people who know. Over there I was having a few test it and got hammered because I didn't want to post pictures. I wasn't going to until I was sure it was safe so if someone tried to duplicate it they wouldn't get hurt. A few people couldn't understand this and it resorted to name calling.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Not accurate AT ALL. you got called out over not understanding or knowing what you were doing. </span>

..

It is locked which is good so it didn't get any worse. One thing I want you to realize in reading this is that all the critics were never given a kit to test. Not sharpshooter, PEI Rob, Dirk, there were only 3 testers that came into that thread. LeeH, GaCop and Blue Avenger, all the reast had never seen the kit and were only speculating.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Again you are not being accurate at all. </span>


....

And here as with over there I will not post pictures until I am 100% postive they are safe.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Yet you WILL send them out for "testing" yet they are not safe enough to have pictures posted? Bad news.
Valid issues were raised by people who know and understand the subject. </span>
Dolomite </div></div>

I don't care who calls someone (I have my own opinion of that forum and some of the rubbish posted on it) out IF what they say is accurate. The issues raised with you WERE accurate and showed you did not understand what you were doing. Make it safe, THEN let people use them.

Don't think I am being harsh, people need to have a balanced view of a situation and understand that you don't trust your own work enough to show it yet are giving it to people. Certainly worries me......
 
#31
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AUJohn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dolomite_Supafly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I have been on savageshooters for some time and I have came up with another version that is going to be a bit better, not accordig to me but to a few people who know. Over there I was having a few test it and got hammered because I didn't want to post pictures. I wasn't going to until I was sure it was safe so if someone tried to duplicate it they wouldn't get hurt. A few people couldn't understand this and it resorted to name calling.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Not accurate AT ALL. you got called out over not understanding or knowing what you were doing. </span>

..

It is locked which is good so it didn't get any worse. One thing I want you to realize in reading this is that all the critics were never given a kit to test. Not sharpshooter, PEI Rob, Dirk, there were only 3 testers that came into that thread. LeeH, GaCop and Blue Avenger, all the reast had never seen the kit and were only speculating.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Again you are not being accurate at all. </span>


....

And here as with over there I will not post pictures until I am 100% postive they are safe.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Yet you WILL send them out for "testing" yet they are not safe enough to have pictures posted? Bad news.
Valid issues were raised by people who know and understand the subject. </span>
Dolomite </div></div>

I don't care who calls someone (I have my own opinion of that forum and some of the rubbish posted on it) out IF what they say is accurate. The issues raised with you WERE accurate and showed you did not understand what you were doing. Make it safe, THEN let people use them.

Don't think I am being harsh, people need to have a balanced view of a situation and understand that you don't trust your own work enough to show it yet are giving it to people. Certainly worries me......


</div></div>

I think you are reading more into it than what was there.
The only safety concern was primers flowing into the bolt and
gas escape due to lightened spring pressure.
Dolomite DID fire some rounds WITH a cut spring and the kit installed and no primer flow occurred, The biggest problem was
that a few did not go BANG due to the cut spring mostly.
I was one of the "Testers" there and although due to the weather I did not make the range and with over 50 years experience with firearms, I am confidant there was more than enough spring pressure with the kit installed to prevent that.
I agree 100% with Dolomite about not posting pic's to prevent
every jack leg gunsmith out there copying it and getting into
trouble.

Take it for what it's worth

LeeH
 
#32
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

Dolomite,

I'd love to try your kit. My action is stock but has smoothed out with use. I'll happily pay for a kit to be a part of the testing
smile.gif


thanks,
LM
 
#33
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

Ok, so here is what we have:

First is a thrust bearing:
IMG_2565.jpg

IMG_2566.jpg

It goes between the BAS and the cocking sleeve. This is an off the shelf part, nothing special.

The lower part of the thrust bearing sits on top of the cocking sleeve:
IMG_2567.jpg

Next goes in the actual bearing and on top of this is the other part of the bearing:
IMG_2568.jpg


It should look like this up to this point:
IMG_2571.jpg


Here is a picture of a spacer that is on the BAS to make up the difference of the thickness of the bearing assembly:
IMG_2572.jpg

Then screw it all down.

As you can see the spacer and the bearing are withing .01" of each other:
IMG_2569.jpg

IMG_2570.jpg


I still need to test but so far it is lighter and definitely smoothed everything out. No need to machine anything off the BAS or cocking sleeve as long as you use a spacer under the BAS. The spacer is not an off the shelf part, it was something I had a machinist make for me. Any machinist could make the same without much fuss.

If anyone thinks of anything that might help please feel free to let me know, otherwise enjoy.

Dolomite
 
#34
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dolomite_Supafly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If anyone thinks of anything that might help please feel free to let me know, otherwise enjoy.

Dolomite
</div></div>

If you offer this as a Kit (for sale) I'd include a BAS that's been machined down for a cleaner looking install.

Please PM me a cost and preferred payment method. I'd really like to buy one of these kits!

Thanks,
LM
 
#35
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

They are going to be cheaper if you buy them direct. If you buy them from me I have shipping both ways. Especially if you are going to machine the BAS down. The spacer is so you don't have to machine it down. I try not to do anyting irreversible to a gun.

Dolomite
 
#36
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dolomite_Supafly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are going to be cheaper if you buy them direct. If you buy them from me I have shipping both ways. Especially if you are going to machine the BAS down. The spacer is so you don't have to machine it down. I try not to do anyting irreversible to a gun.

Dolomite </div></div>

I understand that. If you include an extra BAS already machined then no changes are made to the host.

It's your idea you should profit from it. I'd buy a kit just the way it is or with a pre machined BAS.
wink.gif
 
#37
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

Here is where you can get the bearing:

http://www.mcmaster.com

Item# 6655K11
Steel Thrust Ball Bearing Steel, for 1/8" Shaft Diameter, 7/16" OD
In stock at $1.88 Each

Your going to have to work out the spacer on your own. If I get a few back that I sent out I'll try to hand them out but after that you are on your own. My machinist charges me $1.75 per spacer shipped so having the same duplicated can't cost much. Everything in the pictures cost me less than $5 shipped to my door.

Dolomite

<span style="color: red">We are all adults, it works for me but your mileage may vary.</span>
 
#40
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dolomite_Supafly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Calling out concerns is one thing, name calling is totally different especially when it was over a test sample sent to 8 people.

<span style="color: #FF0000">My understanding was you had been contacted about issues and didn't look at them. If that was the case, people getting wound up and concerned you were giving away something they knew to have safety issues would tend to make most of us upset enough to use a few names. I wouldn't care how many unsafe products were out there either. If this is not the case then you would be right and it would not be understandable. OTOH, the issues I saw raised would explain why guys were uptight.</span>

As far as who got the test samples and who didn't. I am pretty sure I would know who I sent them to more than you unless you are my wife in disguise. Sharpshooter, PEI Rod and Dirk were never mailed one of my parts to test, period end of story. If they did receive them then they were being deceptive by using ghost account.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Are you saying that they don't understand what your fix does, how it works? That the issues they raised were not real? </span>

And yes, while testing I did not want anyone to duplicate it based on safety concerns. Yes I was concerned enough not to post pictures until the testers were done with them. I never sent them to more that 8 people, that was it. And the best part about all this is they are going to be free, no strings attached, no gimics because it gets me out of my skin for a while.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Right, so you didn't know it was safe yet were pushing them out. I also have concerns about this. Even more so when people who ARE qualified to comment, who DO know what is and is not safe raise concerns.</span>

Either way I am not going rehash it and to let this turn into a shitstorm over here either.

<span style="color: #FF0000">You can't expect to get away with misleading comments in regards to others behaviour. </span>

Dolomite </div></div>


I think you are doing a good thing, I don't think you need to have an attitude or ignore the mistakes you are making on the way and mislead guys about the safety issues. "free" does not mean you can use people to safety test for you.
 
#43
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mwroseberry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dolomite, Got your link of this thread. Thanks again for your help and you can ignore my PM on SS.

Thanks,
Merritt
SGT USMC vet. </div></div>

Alredy answered you, anyways if you need anything just let me know.

Dolomite
 
#44
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

wow. lots of good info here. lets try to keep it that way and not clog up my thread with alot of bs from another site. dolomite, thanks for chiming in. i like the thrust washer. may have to try that.

everybody else, re-read this thread and see if you can figure out when it went from me having fun doing something cheap and easy with stuff that i had on hand so i decided to incorporate another hobby and take pictures and share with everybody to whatever the fuck it is now with all the bullshit from another site that really didnt need brought up here in this thread or on this site. you got a problem with dolomite, PM him, dont drag it up in my thread. dolomite, i have no problems with you, i read your posts here and over there, never known you to be anything but helpful and a positive contributor. while i appreciate your input, geez what a can of worms you opened man. at the point where you started to offer your product in my thread, even for free, we both may have been served by you starting another thread with your own idea. dont take it wrong, its just an observation.

and for everybody else, this is the gunsmithing thread, not the pissing contest over what someone did on another site and now he is doing it over here so let call him out and be the hero for exposing him thread


and i re-read this thread, and i know exactly where it went south, so you know exactly who you are that made the call to head that way. for everybodys sake, lets not detract from the positives that got posted here.


mods, if im wrong, let me know...
 
#45
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

I'll go back and pull everything I posted except the info about the parts and pictures.

I know I should have just walked away.

I am sorry for crapping in your thread if there is anything you need or I can do for you just ask.

Again, I am sorry for derailing your post.

Dolomite
 
#46
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

its not you man or anybody in particular. you came to give good info just as all of your posts always have. if our positions were reversed, i would have mentioned the threaded version of this modification, then started another thread that would include your offer and different take on it with the thrust bearings. its just that everybody always does this, if there is an issue, take it up via PM. i want to see the threaded case head, i am glad to know about the thrust washers. maybe you could have predicted the response you got or maybe you figured someone having any issues they would have made them know by PM. i dont care, its not gonna stop me from posting stuff, its just not fair to make someone read all the drama to get the info. its gun smithing not As the Lathe Turns. dont be mad, im not mad at you. its not your fault that people chose respond that way. but i try to keep it to the basics, keep it informative. thanks for taking care of policing your posts, maybe others will edit theirs and we can get this back to an easy to rear tutorial on smoothing a savage bolt lift.
 
#49
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

I am curious... Would the BAS work as the upper thrust washer to allow the assembly to be even shorter?? I fully understand the washer against the bolt body, but is it really necessary on the BAS side??

Possibly super polish the flat surface of the BAS?? Just some thoughts rolling around in my noggin...

DK
 
#50
Re: DIY savage bolt lift kit...

if you could get the bottom of the BAS smooth and true that would work out well. i was also thinking about thinner washers or my favorite method to make a thinner washer, some plate glass, 320 and 600 paper and a steady hand to keep the item flat on the paper, flat on the glass.


pvfd, i could get the diameter of the BAS, if you dont have a caliper ... .500"
 
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