Do I need a bubble level?

[Jayjay1]

Hello guys,
yes, I´m a beginner to LR shooting so I beg you to be kind.

I see some use a bubble level and some not.
It kind of makes a lot sense to me, not to cant the rifle of course.

But do I need a bubble level for that?
And if so, which one would be useful (placement etc.)?

Any response is appreciated,
Jo

 

[spife7980]

Need? No.

 

[Sogan]

Does it help to ensure that your optic is level when using hold overs etc? Yes

 

[flyer]

Judging from how many times I need to adjust the cant on my rifle, yes, I think it is pretty critical for long shots.

I like the type that mounts on the scope tube because it can be rotated in to whichever position you need.

I also like to mount it as far forward as possible so my eyes don't have to focus close up when I look.

 

[elmuzzlebreak]

I think there was a good piece on the podcast that dealt with this and if I recall correctly it's more of a training issue and if you use it prior to each shot it's worth it. What a lot of people do is check once, fire a string without checking again so they end up canting the rifle again.

Need? No. Nice to have? Sure.

@Lowlight may be able to elaborate more /correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Jayjay1]

Thank you guys, I´ll take this as a yes, I need one.

Is there a type of it, which allows you to hold your head position, I mean so that you can see the bubble without giving up your firing position?

I hope this makes sense to you.

 

[elmuzzlebreak]

Being able to see the level without coming off the gun all depends on positioning. I have mine set forward of the turret housing which lets me see top edge to center. If I can recumbent one I'd go for the accuracy first levels. Simple, accurate, and not too expensive. I don't think you need to get too gucci like a send it electronic live unless that's your flavor.

 

[loveha]

Thank you guys, I´ll take this as a yes, I need one.

Is there a type of it, which allows you to hold your head position, I mean so that you can see the bubble without giving up your firing position?

I hope this makes sense to you.

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Simple and effective. Just need a level on your scope turret when installing. They also have another method with instructions using a plumb bob.

They also make excellent throw levers.

 

[Lowlight]

If you address the rifle and you find every time you "Check" the bubble on your rifle (for those that use one) and it's off or canted, that is a setup and training issue, something we like to call a clue.

for the proponents of levels, imagine this, Every time you sit in your car, the mirrors are off, you can't see correctly out of them. Do you set them or move you? That is the issue with a level, if every time you view the level and you are off, that a fundamental issue going wrong, and not something you just fix by shifting your body. Clearly, you are seeing it off more often than not, so that should tell you something about the set up the rifle.

These are cheap ass $6 levels with barely any real-world accuracy put into a $150 wrapper under the guise that you need this to shoot straight. Well, you are being sold a bill of goods and not the correct ones.

A level is a training tool unfortunately 95% of those with them have no real training and think looking it at it is how they work. No, they teach you to understand rifle set up and your body mechanics.

Cant comes from several places and most of those places are subconscious, which means it happens without thought or effort. Your body is steering the system and you are oblivious to the changes happening. The main driver of cant is from running the bolt itself because the bolt is on the side we pull the rifle over in ever-growing increments until we "notice" the issue the and fix it. We see guys string groups even at 100 yards because of it. I can look at a group and tell who is canting the rifle each time and who is not. The fix is the bipod and not a level.

A loose bipod that tilts is the issue more than a level.


Other issues are cheek pressure, and not supporting the back of the rifle properly. Too loose a hold or no rear stock support you are holding the bag and not supporting the stock.

Being sideways even a little and rolling your head over, screws up our fantastically accurate balance system in our head which is a lot more accurate than that cheap ass level on your rifle. Our own Vestibular system is awesome, why not use it,

it's not only a liquid system, but it also has micro fine hairs to work together.

Super Accurate, what level out there works to this degree. Answer, None

Canting with a rifle is a training & setup issue more than anything else, it's not a shooting consideration unless you are taking shortcuts and make it one.

This needs to be done without thought, like breathing.

 

[Rugster]

In my opinion, yes, you should have a level on your rifle.

 

[408w]

They are so irrelevant in fact frank that guys that shoot ko2m use them. I would like to know how you sync your ear to your reticle and rifle when installing a scope . Seat of the pants (ear) seems like a poor approach when/if shooting elr with varying slopes and elevations in the field. An end all tool no, but a tool nonetheless is better than none. It is a useful reference tool.

 

[usmc45]

Awesome post LL, Thank you for explaining this and giving the pointers for training.

 

[AverageGrunt]

No but also yes

 

[Kadams1563]

I used to run one but now I am shooting out to about 1300 and don’t use one anymore.

I have one laying around somewhere and I think about putting it back on but can’t find it at the moment. It hasn’t affected me yet I guess.

 

[Bo Ployhar]

While I understand what Frank is saying my answer would ev you absolutely need one. First of all how are you supposed to train / practice to hold your gun level, if you have no idea what level is while your doing it? Secondly I have yet to take someone shooting in the mountains that can lay on one side of a canyon and shoot to the other side and just know what level is every time. I've had alot of guys tell me they can do it but havent even had one guy be right while shooting off my concrete pad! Like I tell them all put one on and if your level every time you check them sell it!

 

[MikeInUtah]

There was info flying around many years ago which allowed me to quantify the potential cant issue which ultimately led me to start using bubble levels. It was for every 5 degrees of cant in a rifle, you get .1 mil drift every hundred meters. This is critical to determine the "need". I quickly noticed that my unassisted shooting position wasn't too far off when on level ground, but if my target or shooting location was not level, greater deviations in cant would be introduced.

 

[Alpine 338]

You have false indicators out there that can cause you to cant your rifle. Somethings so suttle, that you naturally use them, and cause cant. Examples are, in the mountains where you have tall thin tree's like lodgepole pine, you naturally assume they are straight (90-deg). However, they tend to grow towards the sun (slightly leaning towards the Equator), and the closer you are to the Poles, the more they lean. I have some property that's located on a ridgeline, and because of the prevailing winds, the tree's are all leaning North. Man made structures such as buildings can give you false data. For example, if not perfectly aligned perpendicular with the side of the building, the roofline may appear level, but will actually have a slight slope to it.

Unless you're on the Ocean, or places like Eastern North Dakota, the Horizon my not always be level.

Using a level helps.

 

[Rerun7]

Keep in mind the farther you shoot the more effect it has. I keep one on because it doesn’t hurt anything to have it, it’s a good training aid and provides piece of mind before your shot.

Also, I rarely shoot off a bipod and often on uneven ground while hunting so it’s an easy check to make sure my position is correct before taking a shot.

 

[seansmd]

Saw this posted recently, lots of math for those who don't want to follow there is a summary table at the bottom with real world data.
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/resources/estimation-of-shot-error-due-to-rifle-cant.22/

 

[Sutherlandsd]

My Spuhr mount has one built in....My MPA chassis has the inclinometer thing.... I rarely use them. Cant isn't the four letter word that causes most of my issues mine starts with a W and ends in ind.

I think I am going to start carrying around my wind meter daily, I'll tell the freaks at walmart and the grocery store its a diabetic monitor or some shit if they stare or ask.

 

[seansmd]

Tell them its a Geiger counter, that should be interesting.

 

[...]

confederate snipers were making hits at 1000 yds without bubble levels....safe to say you dont NEED one.

is it going to hurt?...probably not.....but its not a crisis if you dont have one.

 

[elmuzzlebreak]

Overall consensus form what I am seeing is just get one, if you use it great, if you don't take it off the gun and sell it. Like any piece of kit it isn't necessary but it can help if you use it correctly.

 

[Lowlight]

They are so irrelevant in fact frank that guys that shoot ko2m use them. I would like to know how you sync your ear to your reticle and rifle when installing a scope . Seat of the pants (ear) seems like a poor approach when/if shooting elr with varying slopes and elevations in the field. An end all tool no, but a tool nonetheless is better than none. It is a useful reference tool.

HAHAHAHAHA

the K02M guys got smoked by Brantley, don't recall him referencing a level, I have the pictures if you want, and he barely had dope, I watched one of the finalist at the K02m this past year cant the rifle each shot and never pay any attention to his $150 level, he kept missing farther and farther to the right and never figured out why until he walked off the range and I told him what happened.

Levels, dont' make you shoot better, understanding how to use one and training does

A spuhr level is for mounting not training

How do I mount it, of course, the reticle is leveled to the fall of the gravity but the scope is not always a straight genius, the reticle is level the rifle is set to my NATURAL HOLD that is the key,

Try finding a video of me shooting ELR or otherwise with a level on my rifle

 

[Lowlight]

Here was Brantley at the K02M doping wind,

Gee K02M winner and no Kestrel, how could he

He had a vortex level he never used it and in fact his Data card mounted on the rifle pretty much blocked it

I was standing at the Line at the K02M I have shot beyond a mile and do very well at those ranges, no level

People have no clue how to use it,

They look at the level, straight out the rifle and they start looking downrange, and complete ignore it. Once they start shooting a string they ignore it even more

I used to constantly take pictures of guys who had levels on their rifle and shot with it off, then I would tease them about the money they wasted it like the guys in Flat states who buy Angle Cosine Indicators

I shoot for a living most of you don't ... that is also called a clue

Rifle set up is different from rifle shooting

 

[Lowlight]

I don't look at the horizon, I can't see it through my scope, don't care where the horizon is

I don't care about terrain because my head is straight, I can walk a ridgeline here in Colorado and not fall off the mountains

I don't reference the target shape, (what happens when it is round) I am not trying to "reference" the man-made objectives

I quarter the targets regardless of what it looks like or what angle it is hanging at

I FEEL the rifle in my shoulder and address it and my cheekweld the same way every time,

Robert's data card blocked his level

JJRock Team no level, they were top finishers

 

[LastShot300]

I used to constantly take pictures of guys who had levels on their rifle and shot with it off, then I would tease them about the money they wasted it like the guys in Flat states who buy Angle Cosine Indicators

 

[Lowlight]

Here is Wade Stuteville the year he won the SHC in Douglas WY

A lot of good that level did him

Terrain

Here is an image of the target, where is my Horizon to reference

I focus on the reticle on the target, not on what is surrounding it

 

[Rugster]

I think it depends on the game you’re playing. The bipods for King of 2 mile comps are very different than what most guys use for PRS and often have cant locked out. They are shooting from a flat surface whereas PRS not always. I’ve seen a lot of guys send one round and miss left, then send another and miss right and they say “wind switched.” No friend, Mother Nature didn’t just pull a magical 180 on you in the last 3 seconds, your cant was off on at least one of your shots. Another tool in the toolbox, rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

 

[nick338]

I've never understood the level thing other to mount a scope. I can't keep my body position natural and my head alignment correct while focusing on the reticle and target if I'm worried about what some bubble is doing off to the side. Squaring up the target with the reticle outweighs trying to watch the level and throwing body position off trying to compensate for it.

 

[Lowlight]

In PRS you have absolutely no time to check level

90 seconds is not enough, and their ranges are super short to begin with ... the average PRS range is between 400 and 600 yards on a 2 MOA target, if you cannot hold that, get a new hobby

More BS from the peanut gallery trying to justify spending people's money, misery loves company

 

[Rugster]

In PRS you have absolutely no time to check level

90 seconds is not enough, and their ranges are super short to begin with ... the average PRS range is between 400 and 600 yards on a 2 MOA target, if you cannot hold that, get a new hobby

More BS from the peanut gallery trying to justify spending people's money, misery loves company

Vehemently disagree. Especially in a troop line, I’m checking level before every shot especially as I walk the targets out to distance.

 

[brianf]

You guys are arguing about levels using professional shooters.

That’s just foolish

You can give a Honda to a nascar guy and he’ll beat you in a corvette, what does that mean.

For new shooters or people who do not shoot very often I think it’s a indispensable tool, when used properly.

There is no way to properly set up a rifle or manipulate you position if you do not have static variables, especially if your skill set is still in its infancy.

 

[elmuzzlebreak]

I guess what we are all trying to say is "Do I need a level?"
-No

 

[candyx]

As long as your plumb to the axis of the earth you should hit your target. Since your barrel is curved a level really has no purpose unless the barrel has been indexed.

 

[nick338]

Setting up the rifle the right way from the ground up essentially negates the need for a level if you're using good shooting fundamentals. I've seen people throw a scope in a set of rings with a rifle sitting on a bipod and use a level to adjust the crosshair and call it day. Then go out to the range and wonder why the reticle is crooked as fuck. They never checked the level of the rifle before they set the scope in the rings. Eliminate the static variable before shooting and teach proper body and head position and everything else falls into place.

 

[huntsman22]

I use one if I think I need it......

It kinda sucks when the recoil knocks the magnet loose from the turret screw, and you have to reset it every shot. But hey, THAT is an easy fix.....

And if a fella needs a really super accurate level....

 

[Combloc]

Holy shit, I've been doing it wrong! Going to get a custom 20 ft level.

 

[Lowlight]

exactly as noted above,

Properly setting up the rifle to the Shooter and squaring it to them negates the need, its a feel thing

New shooters are distracted by levels, you cannot multi task correctly you should not take your attention off the targets

Funny I graduated sniper school, shot places like Bridgeport, Korea, etc, all with no levels on the rifle. We learned to set it up correctly first and complete the firing task without coming out of the optic. Strange how that works.

We ran up and down those mountains hitting targets and never once did someone suggest a level was necessary. That tall mountain in the back is North Korea.

If you are bouncing up for every shot to confirm level you have no training and no knowledge of the subject, you are like a new guy taking a picture who has to check the screen on the back of the camera every time to make sure it is exposed correctly.

Yes, a Level is a TRAINING TOOL, not a SHOOTING AID, its there to correct your set up and help you adjust the rifle to fit the shooter. Once that is done only in the rarest of cases would you use it.

New shooters make a ton of mistakes, including misusing the level.

Heck I even did a video

 

[brianf]

Not a pissing match but..

You were trained by professionals
Under constant supervision
Trained several weeks in a row
For several hours a day

And magically you did not need bubble level

And you were good enough at it that you became a instructor later on

 

[seansmd]

@Lowlight that video is very helpful, a question when you pick up a level/level rifle that is not level to your natural cant, do you cant it less than you would like to keep the reticle lever to your eye/ear?

 

[Lowlight]

Hence,

I might have a clue how to set things up correctly instead of stumbling through it the wrong way

How many LEVEL USERs address the rifle each time and find the need to adjust it for level, that is called a clue, so if we look at it as a clue how many try to remedy this problem via changing the rifle set up ?

Definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome

If you see the level is off and it "saves" you from being canted, try fixing it instead of constantly doing it wrong

Again, for the slow guys, if you get in the car and your mirrors are you off, you dont move you, you move the mirrors. if the level shows off each and every glance, you have a fundamental problem in set up

 

[Lowlight]

I use another person's rifle that is level/level I shoot it as such.

My head is straight, so I understand what level is,

Here is another demonstration from Thomas Haugland from Norway, doing a Level vs Shooter test



Here all the way from Norway and he came to the same conclusions as well as demonstrates it with a hypersensitive electronic level

His brain is several times more accurate than the level, worth watching if not for the scenery,

FYI I believe he has another version of this comparing both, but not sure which number it is

 

[JoeZ]

If I remember right, there was a thread here years back where a fella showed that the human eye can see cant in the reticle before the bubble in the level can indicate cant. Try it. Put a level on your rifle and aim at a plumb line. See how far canted it has to be before the level indicates an error.

 

[MikeInUtah]

LL, There was a time when you used a level. "I don't know how others use their levels, but I look as I'm getting in position, then don't again until the next shot. Doesn't seem like much of a distraction to me.</div></div> "

 

[Lowlight]

I can't think of a time I used a level, maybe for a video, but odds of me actually using it are pretty rare.

If I had one on it was a video reason, not a need reason, it was probably a fluke as I only have 2 or 3 here and none are mounted or have been for many years.

Most likely they were given to me so I felt obliged to stick them on something

 

[nexusfire]

Todd Hodnett sells them so no.

 

[Brushout]

I agree. With both sides actually. I think there may not be a true practical reason for a level but mentally may have reason to have one or want one. All and all The level isn’t really needed...it’s just a bubble level the degree of accuracy is minimal.

BUT....It’s kinda like when you are playing golf. You take a beautiful shot and the ball sticks right next to the hole. Feels great!! The next hole you do your best to repeat the same shot. Doing everything the same. Or at least trying. Repeatability.

Same as for shooting. If you look down at a level and then you fire and have an impact and it feels great...then bam...you will do it again. Most likely there was a lot of other things you did right and a bubble level wasn’t really in the equation.

Bottom line in my opinion...no real benefit of having a level on your scope or rifle but if it makes you feel like you can make repeated hits on target then strut one. I don’t have one on any of my rifles. But if you feel better with one...rock it out.

 

[Nik H]

...Then go out to the range and wonder why the reticle is crooked as fuck. They never checked the level of the rifle before they set the scope in the rings.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I cannot tell you how often I see this at the local range...

It comes down not only to knowledge but also to realizing that you may be missing information and asking someone more knowledgeable. It also requires patience. Most people want to mount it and go. Even if you do this part correctly, how many do a tall target or box test? Here on this forum I bet it is a good % but most don't even know what those tests are.

 

[Sutherlandsd]

I think what LL is trying to get across is if you are getting behind the rifle canted or using a crutch to keep you from getting canted.... Why not fix the flaws that are getting you that way instead of using a crutch that will just continue with bad habits.

In the medical field we see this all the time especially with repetitive motion injuries and ergonomic injuries over time. Instead of correcting the issue that is causing the bad thing people will correct it with a brace their sister in law used and got at walgreens. I love these people they give me money that lets me buy more rifle shit.