Rifle Scopes Do it all Scope? Hunting, Target, Long Range

[chenha]

I am trying to select a scope that can address a few areas of interest. My rifle is capable of 0.75-1 MOA--accurate.

I have been shooting for over 30 years: clay, pistol, tactical, hunting, etc. I am no stranger to rifle shooting, just the long range aspect is new to me. One thing that i have found interesting is how much street credit Leupold has in the hunting arena. I think it is primarily because of the fact that many hunters shoot in the 150-400 yard range will calibers that are pretty flat shooting so adjustments are not that critical to take out large game.

Having come from that background, the new series of Leupold scopes with a custom dial seems attractive to many of us guys that want to start stretching out beyond that distance. One popular hunting model has adjustable dials based on the cartridge and environmental factors. This is attractive to hunters that may be out in the field and have very limited time to make adjustment before they lose the shot. http://www.leupold.com/VX-3CDS

From the feedback i received, it seems like the above scope may be fine to hit the vitals of a deer at 500 yrds out, but it is not going to be competitive compared to the NF, S&B, etc.
I always seem to run into the problem—trying to find something that is a one size fits all (e.g. can’t have a CQB Rifle be a precision long range sniper). Same goes with a scope, I am looking for something that will do it all, one that I can use for hunting in the 150-350yrd range, target shooting /plinking between 100-600, and also able to OCASSIONALLY shoot further with some friends.

Am I going down the wrong track with the above Leupold Type adjustible dial system?

 

[diriel]

Re: Do it all Scope? Hunting, Plinking, Long Range

As far as out to 600 and maybe farther goes, a max power setting of around 14 or at most 16 will be more than plenty. The key is resolution and clarity of the optics. Try to keep the exit pupil ( front of scope / magnification ) to about 3.5ish on max magnification for over all best results. Too little exit pupil is one of the leading causes of "Scope too dark at dusk/dawn".

My personal test is a 1 gallon gatorade container filled with red colored water or jello at 1k yards at dusk. If my scope can allow me to SEE that well enough to engage it, i'm good to go. Mine will do that @ 12x in the last 5-10 minutes of light, and my objective lens is 42. Which puts it right at 3.5 exit pupil. Some eyes may be able to go lower, but for me the magic number is 3.5

Good hunting

 

[Sapper524]

Re: Do it all Scope? Hunting, Plinking, Long Range

what kind of budget we talking here? If I had to have just one optic on one rifle for everything ... It would be a USO 1.8-10 with TPAL/EREK/Reticle of choice. 10x will get you to 1000 but 20x will do it better. However for a hunting rig most people don't want to lug a 25x optic around.

 

[diriel]

Re: Do it all Scope? Hunting, Plinking, Long Range

+1 to what Sapper524 said. My optic rarely see's above 12x, most times I keep it on either 6x or 10x. Out to 600ish an optic like the USO or equivalent quality will do pretty much any thing you could ask for.

Of course Vortex makes a few scopes that are well worth while too, depending on your budget constraints.

Good Hunting,
Gary

 

[chenha]

Re: Do it all Scope? Hunting, Plinking, Long Range

I was trying to keep below $1000, but if a bit more gets me alot more, then I can up it a bit. Sounds like no one is a leupold fan? I was looking that the 40 or 50mm 4.5x14 and getting a couple of those custom ballistic dials--is that just blasphemy in this forum?

 

[AtownBcat]

Re: Do it all Scope? Hunting, Plinking, Long Range

You hit the nail on the head. Leupys are great hunting scopes. Most hunters set their 100 or 200 yrd zero and then never touch them except for a once in a while adjustment. If that is the way you are going to use it then go for it. Leupys are not well thought of here by most, athough you will find a few that swear by them. The problem with them is..They used to be a Made in the USA company, they cant say that anymore. I know Nightforce can only say that about a couple of models, but there is something about the fact that leupold, was but now is not, that gets under peoples skin. Leupolds once great customer service is still pretty good but not as good as it once was...And lastly was Leupold considers "good enough" many here do not consider it good enough(reticle cant/click values and so on...)

 

[Sapper524]

Re: Do it all Scope? Hunting, Plinking, Long Range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chenha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was trying to keep below $1000, but if a bit more gets me alot more, then I can up it a bit. Sounds like no one is a leupold fan? I was looking that the 40 or 50mm 4.5x14 and getting a couple of those custom ballistic dials--is that just blasphemy in this forum?

</div></div>

Nah ... if that is what you like to use ... roll with it. Leupold has some haters and some that swear by them. I dont care for them myself and pretty much run SS 3-9 FFP or USO on my centerfire rifles. The custom dials from leupold would work fine. I would collect all my own data provide them with the MOA come ups for each range myself. Ballistics calculators are great but I would eleminate the possibility of an error myself. If you want to just laser/dial/shoot that would work. With a dope sheet on hand your basically doing the same thing just not using yardage marks on a turrent. With standard 1/4 MOA or .1 Mil adjustments you can adjust your math for altitude and/or changing conditions.

The "up" side, as I see it, to the custom caps is the whole Second focal plane vs First Focal Plane. If you are always going to dial your range into the scope instead of holding over/under then these turrents with a SFP would work great. I like FFP optics because I like things simple. With these yardage turrents you can have a the bonus of a finer reticle at higher magnification for paper punching and eliminate the error for holding at the wrong magnification ... provided you always dial your elevation and aim center mass.

The whole SFP vs FFP will always boil down to preference.

 

[diriel]

Re: Do it all Scope? Hunting, Plinking, Long Range

I am not going to bash Leupy, but please keep in mind what others have said about their decline. Still a good scope, but they charge a premium for an optic that is no longer made in america.

That being said, Vortex is another american company that has scopes built for them from out of country. They have absolutely superb customer service. And they also have a pretty solid product line up. Every bit as good as Leupy, but for a much better price.

http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/vortex-viper-3-5-10x50-riflescope-dead-hold-bdc-reticle

This would be a Very Good hunting optic, that wont break the bank. They also will do those custom BDC turrets. I hope it does not sound like I am pushing a cup of Kool-Aid here

They just have a solid product, solid CS, and are a great company to deal with. When is the last time you seen a Leupy CS rep in a forum actually talking to people?

Ok, sales mode = OFF
Gary
P.S. Liberty Optics can sell you just about *ANY* optic you desire. Scott is truly a great guy to deal with.

 

[AK10mm]

Re: Do it all Scope? Hunting, Plinking, Long Range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chenha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was trying to keep below $1000, but if a bit more gets me alot more, then I can up it a bit. Sounds like no one is a leupold fan? I was looking that the 40 or 50mm 4.5x14 and getting a couple of those custom ballistic dials--is that just blasphemy in this forum?

</div></div>

You might want to check out an IOR 3-18X42 SFP.I use mine for pretty much what you describe.Varmints to big game and a little bit of long range.Very user friendly w/25 moa EL in a single turn and is very low profile.These run $1600 or so new but can be found for around $1000-1100 used in great condition.The SFP is a bit harder to find used than the FFP though,I got mine from Scott @ Liberty Optics.Great guy to deal with.

 

[diriel]

Re: Do it all Scope? Hunting, Plinking, Long Range

I was not going to say anything, but my scope is the original "Flea" scope: 3x18-42. I absolutely love it.

It is a bit on the heavy side. I don't mind that personally. The illumination on the original scopes was *WAY*_*TOO*_*BRIGHT*!!! The glass is great, clarity is great, repeatability is great. The reticle is either Love IT, or Hate IT! I 100% love it, and now days I have a hard time using anything but that MP8 Reticle. I do know people who really hate it however, it is a matter of personal taste.

Good Shooting,
Gary

 

[7mmRM]

Re: Do it all Scope? Hunting, Plinking, Long Range

Sounds like a FFP 3-9 Super Sniper would fit the bill perfectly for you.

 

[diriel]

Re: Do it all Scope? Hunting, Plinking, Long Range

+1 to the super sniper, solid choice as well. Very durable, and repeatable scope.

Gary

 

[BobinNC]

Re: Do it all Scope? Hunting, Target, Long Range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chenha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am trying to select a scope that can address a few areas of interest. My rifle is capable of 0.75-1 MOA--accurate.

I have been shooting for over 30 years: clay, pistol, tactical, hunting, etc. I am no stranger to rifle shooting, just the long range aspect is new to me. One thing that i have found interesting is how much street credit Leupold has in the hunting arena. I think it is primarily because of the fact that many hunters shoot in the 150-400 yard range will calibers that are pretty flat shooting so adjustments are not that critical to take out large game.

Having come from that background, the new series of Leupold scopes with a custom dial seems attractive to many of us guys that want to start stretching out beyond that distance. One popular hunting model has adjustable dials based on the cartridge and environmental factors. This is attractive to hunters that may be out in the field and have very limited time to make adjustment before they lose the shot. http://www.leupold.com/VX-3CDS

From the feedback i received, it seems like the above scope may be fine to hit the vitals of a deer at 500 yrds out, but it is not going to be competitive compared to the NF, S&B, etc.
I always seem to run into the problem—trying to find something that is a one size fits all (e.g. can’t have a CQB Rifle be a precision long range sniper). Same goes with a scope, I am looking for something that will do it all, one that I can use for hunting in the 150-350yrd range, target shooting /plinking between 100-600, and also able to OCASSIONALLY shoot further with some friends.

Am I going down the wrong track with the above Leupold Type adjustible dial system? </div></div>

Chenha,

Without getting into a general Leupold bashfest, let's just talk about the Leupold CDS system. Is it viable?

NO, it is not, and here's why:

Let's take a flat shooting cartridge like the 7mm Rem Mag.

Next, we will load a 162 Grain A-Max @ 3000 FPS for this illustration.

Now let's create two different scenario's, both possible in Nevada, using JBM's ballistic table:

One a 700 yd shot @ 1500 ASL

700 Yds Drop Mils -4.0 MOA -13.7 Drift 1.0 Mils 3.6 MOA

Next a 700 Yd Shot @ 9500 ASL

700 Yds Drop -3.7 Mils -12.6 MOA 0.8 Mils 2.7 MOA

The difference in Drop between them is a full 7.5". In windage a full 5.0".

Unless you have multiple CDS dials, and change them as you change elevation, the utility of using such a system is wasted.

Best to learn how to use a MIL based scope and adjustments. Have a paper drop chart for different uses, and atmospheric conditions, is both cheaper and easier to carry then multiple dials.

The aforementioned SS 3-9x42MM FFP Mil/MIL scope is a good choice, as is IOR's 2.5-10x42 MM FFP MIl/Mil Illuminated.

A BDC type scope, which the Leupold CDS is one of, is an attempt to make simple, something that is not simple at all: Hitting a target consistently at ranges exceeding 600 yds in all conditions.

If you never change AO, and keep your shots under 600 yds, most BDC type scopes work. Take them beyond that envelope, and you are courting a missed shot.

Success at long range shooting, over 600 yds, requires both practice, training and the proper equipment. Gimmicks and quick fixes are not viable substitutes.

IMHO, and YMMV,

Bob

 

[diriel]

Re: Do it all Scope? Hunting, Target, Long Range

+1 for what Bob said so well. My bad for mentioning the bdc that vortex has. I did not stop to think about it. My MP8 reticle is great for Milling, and that is what I do these days. it does take practice.

Gary

 

[john2000]

Re: Do it all Scope? Hunting, Target, Long Range

Minimum objective diameter should be 50mm imho.
That way you still get a decent exit pupil when magnification exceeds 15 if you buy something capable of that or more.
During low-light dusk/dawn hunting or in dense vegetation you will sooner or later find yourself in a situation where a <56mm is lacking severely, especially when your natural night vision kicks in.
Ok, I hunt in (often partially) snowcovered terrain in moonlight (NV no-go,natural light only)so I may be biased but my Leupy Mk4 6.5-20X50 simply does not cut it, not even in broad daylight, it is collecting dust in a box...

SFP,FFP,reticle pattern,all personal preference.
I like SFP as it has a hair reticle even on higher magnifications, with illum. dialled all the way down it barely glows in the dark and does not cover target.

As for the made in the US coolaid; with all due respect, a lot of mighty fine products comes out of the US and I fully support the honorable in supporting ones own country, but that would never be a baseline for product selection...

John - out

 

[ejg]

Re: Do it all Scope? Hunting, Target, Long Range

I'm really happy with a 6.5-20x50 Zeiss Conquest. Light enough to use as a hunting scope and great optics. Also use a S&B Zenith flash dot 3-12x50 with bdc's fitted, but these have single turn which only get you to around 450m with 308.
edi

 

[sscoyote]

Re: Do it all Scope? Hunting, Target, Long Range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: diriel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">+1 for what Bob said so well. My bad for mentioning the bdc that vortex has. I did not stop to think about it. My MP8 reticle is great for Milling, and that is what I do these days. it does take practice.

Gary </div></div>

I am also into the long-range game for hunting mostly...and coyotes mostly. There is nothing wrong with the BDC RETICLE system once the user learns to apply it as accurately as possible. I have been using them since Burris put out there Ball. Plex many years ago now. The way to go is to do the multiple drop chart thing as Bob above suggests in one form or another with turrets, MOA, IPHY, mil, whatever, and also apply the reticle for it's fast application.

Got a buddy that i hunted coyotes with last season that made the most long-range shots in one season i've ever seen so far with the fewest misses. 785, 650, 535, and 470 (AR-10 243/87 V-Max). He probably would not have gotten 3 of those shots without his BDC reticle. The 785 yarder was dialed. His "multiple drop charts" system is an I-Pod Touch with a nulled out trajectory at some std. condition and then he calls into the local airport for air density changes several times a day--6.5-20x VX-III/Varmint Hunter's reticle.

As far as i can see this is the best system of field application that i've ever seen, and still practically applied.

 

[ggmanning]

Re: Do it all Scope? Hunting, Target, Long Range

My choice for the same thing is a USO SN-3 3-17. I just sold a SS 3-9 that I got new with a rifle buy on the Hide and it too would fit the bill very well. Depends on what you want to spend.

 

[chenha]

Re: Do it all Scope? Hunting, Target, Long Range

Yeah, I want to have more than 10 magnification, if the SS scope came more than 10x I think that would be the one for me. Illumination would be nice, but that jacks up the price. Does anu ome have any thoughts about the post by sscoyote.

 

[diriel]

Re: Do it all Scope? Hunting, Target, Long Range

Seems pretty complex to me. I prefer the relative simplicity of a Mil reticle. Once you learn it, you print up your "Dope Sheets" and take them with you. I would prefer to not have to always be changing out turret knobs, and trying to keep track of them.

http://www.valdada.com/product/6bc60426-b290-4d5b-9053-35e59579e645.aspx

This is a 4x14-50mm with illumination and the MP8 Mil reticle. This scope has very good glass. Well above any Leupy I have ever looked through. I am *NOT* knocking Leupy's! These scopes have a solid reputation of having great glass, and good coatings. In fact, many people compare the optics in these Valdada / IOR scopes to NightForce quite favorably. For those of you who are NF purists, please note that I said Optics only

You may, or may not, be able to Drive Nails with one of these. But they are definitely More Than Tough Enough for a hunting scope!

Good Hunting,
Gary

 

[steve123]

Re: Do it all Scope? Hunting, Target, Long Range

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chenha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am trying to select a scope that can address a few areas of interest. My rifle is capable of 0.75-1 MOA--accurate.

I have been shooting for over 30 years: clay, pistol, tactical, hunting, etc. I am no stranger to rifle shooting, just the long range aspect is new to me. One thing that i have found interesting is how much street credit Leupold has in the hunting arena. I think it is primarily because of the fact that many hunters shoot in the 150-400 yard range will calibers that are pretty flat shooting so adjustments are not that critical to take out large game.

Having come from that background, the new series of Leupold scopes with a custom dial seems attractive to many of us guys that want to start stretching out beyond that distance. One popular hunting model has adjustable dials based on the cartridge and environmental factors. This is attractive to hunters that may be out in the field and have very limited time to make adjustment before they lose the shot. http://www.leupold.com/VX-3CDS

From the feedback i received, it seems like the above scope may be fine to hit the vitals of a deer at 500 yrds out, but it is not going to be competitive compared to the NF, S&B, etc.
I always seem to run into the problem—trying to find something that is a one size fits all (e.g. can’t have a CQB Rifle be a precision long range sniper). Same goes with a scope, I am looking for something that will do it all, one that I can use for hunting in the 150-350yrd range, target shooting /plinking between 100-600, and also able to OCASSIONALLY shoot further with some friends.

Am I going down the wrong track with the above Leupold Type adjustible dial system? </div></div>

IMO The Bushnell 3-12x44 4200 FFP mil/mil would be a great scope for you. Learn to use ballistic programs and apply atmospherics. If I can learn it you can too.