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Re: Do match primers really make a difference?
Price......hahaha
Price......hahaha
Re: Do match primers really make a difference?
I haven't noticed a difference in Federal or CCI primers. I use Russian primers, they are better than any Match primer.
I haven't noticed a difference in Federal or CCI primers. I use Russian primers, they are better than any Match primer.
Re: Do match primers really make a difference?
No.
No.
Re: Do match primers really make a difference?
No difference for me. I've used small pistol primers in my 223 match loads and couldn't tell.
No difference for me. I've used small pistol primers in my 223 match loads and couldn't tell.
Re: Do match primers really make a difference?
I have been using Br2's but then I've just figured that if I could eliminate one less variable from the mix... has anyone done some ES and SD measurements with normal primers vs match ones?
I have been using Br2's but then I've just figured that if I could eliminate one less variable from the mix... has anyone done some ES and SD measurements with normal primers vs match ones?
Re: Do match primers really make a difference?
nope.. I made loads with br2 and 200. never ever saw a difference. just $25 more for the br2
nope.. I made loads with br2 and 200. never ever saw a difference. just $25 more for the br2
Re: Do match primers really make a difference?
buy a 100 of several, try them all... you will need a chrono
for me fed mag match = more velocity/ higher es/sd
rem 9 1/2 mag = slower but also less es/sd
buy a 100 of several, try them all... you will need a chrono
for me fed mag match = more velocity/ higher es/sd
rem 9 1/2 mag = slower but also less es/sd
Re: Do match primers really make a difference?
The Speer book says that CCI match primers are made to the same spec as their normal primers. The only difference is they make sure they have the most experienced people on the assembly line when they run them.
The Speer book says that CCI match primers are made to the same spec as their normal primers. The only difference is they make sure they have the most experienced people on the assembly line when they run them.
Re: Do match primers really make a difference?
Well, my guns sure can tell a difference like lower ES and SD, and better accuracy. So, for me there is a difference that is quantifiable.
I always say let the gun bbl do the talking, all else is moot till you see what works for your gun. Different strokes for different folks. I have seen accuracy improved by 50 percent going from 210 to 210 M. That is a measurable difference. For small rifle primers I used Rem 7.5 primers all the time, which are br primers.
Well, my guns sure can tell a difference like lower ES and SD, and better accuracy. So, for me there is a difference that is quantifiable.
I always say let the gun bbl do the talking, all else is moot till you see what works for your gun. Different strokes for different folks. I have seen accuracy improved by 50 percent going from 210 to 210 M. That is a measurable difference. For small rifle primers I used Rem 7.5 primers all the time, which are br primers.
Re: Do match primers really make a difference?
This has been tested before, handloadermagazine.com (Dec-Jan 2009) conducted a test using a particular load and the only variable was the primer. In summary the changing in brand and type of primers can change group size up to .313 of inch.(Page 78 SciuChetti) I have done my own testing with wolf, cci br-2, and fed 210m. Everyone swore up and down about wolf primers and I guess I just got a bad lot because it ended up being the worst and I ended up not using them after 20 rounds, CCI Br-2 and Fed 210m:
H¬0: variances are equal
Ha: variances are not equal
2.)f-test
3.)α=.05
4.)Do not reject H0 if the p-value ≥ α
reject H0 if the p-value < α
5.) F-Test (Normal Distribution)
Test statistic = 0.82, p-value = 0.852
6.)since the p-value = .852 > .05, we do not reject the H0.
7.) Therefore, the variances may be assumed to be equal.
Between the Fed and CCI match primers the variances are equal using an alpha of .05, however I found that my groups where 8% better using the Feds..go figure. Since I live in Idaho getting the BR-2s have been a lot easier to get with the O-scare so that is what I have been using.
Also note that the above hand loader magazine test did not use wolf primers in the experiment, I know of world class palma shooters who swear by these, again I did not have such luck.
This has been tested before, handloadermagazine.com (Dec-Jan 2009) conducted a test using a particular load and the only variable was the primer. In summary the changing in brand and type of primers can change group size up to .313 of inch.(Page 78 SciuChetti) I have done my own testing with wolf, cci br-2, and fed 210m. Everyone swore up and down about wolf primers and I guess I just got a bad lot because it ended up being the worst and I ended up not using them after 20 rounds, CCI Br-2 and Fed 210m:
H¬0: variances are equal
Ha: variances are not equal
2.)f-test
3.)α=.05
4.)Do not reject H0 if the p-value ≥ α
reject H0 if the p-value < α
5.) F-Test (Normal Distribution)
Test statistic = 0.82, p-value = 0.852
6.)since the p-value = .852 > .05, we do not reject the H0.
7.) Therefore, the variances may be assumed to be equal.
Between the Fed and CCI match primers the variances are equal using an alpha of .05, however I found that my groups where 8% better using the Feds..go figure. Since I live in Idaho getting the BR-2s have been a lot easier to get with the O-scare so that is what I have been using.
Also note that the above hand loader magazine test did not use wolf primers in the experiment, I know of world class palma shooters who swear by these, again I did not have such luck.
Re: Do match primers really make a difference?
I was told by Federal that the Match primers are the first run off of the primer making machines and the tolerances are more consistent.
After what they call the first run, the balance are sold as regular primers.
This info comes directly from Federal, I called.
Jerry
I was told by Federal that the Match primers are the first run off of the primer making machines and the tolerances are more consistent.
After what they call the first run, the balance are sold as regular primers.
This info comes directly from Federal, I called.
Jerry
Re: Do match primers really make a difference?
Match primers should provide more consistent ignition, but good load development may make them redundant. I develop with standard primers, then test with sibling match primers to see if they actually make a necessary difference. At least half of the time, my results say they don't.
Bear in mind that the extreme limits of ballistic trajectories will exaggerate otherwise inconsequential ammunition inconsistencies.
Greg
Match primers should provide more consistent ignition, but good load development may make them redundant. I develop with standard primers, then test with sibling match primers to see if they actually make a necessary difference. At least half of the time, my results say they don't.
Bear in mind that the extreme limits of ballistic trajectories will exaggerate otherwise inconsequential ammunition inconsistencies.
Greg
Re: Do match primers really make a difference?
If you use CCI ones they have that super-cool little B stamped into them. Otherwise, nothing that I have ever been able to tell. BR guys I hung around with a long time ago used to believe in them, but then again, those guys were chasing hundredths or thousandths.....
If you use CCI ones they have that super-cool little B stamped into them. Otherwise, nothing that I have ever been able to tell. BR guys I hung around with a long time ago used to believe in them, but then again, those guys were chasing hundredths or thousandths.....
Re: Do match primers really make a difference?
I dunno, I just use whatever is cheaper at the time.
I dunno, I just use whatever is cheaper at the time.
Re: Do match primers really make a difference?
I've noticed a difference. I don't know that it's enough to make a difference to most. Although only at 100 yards, I've had days when I'm really on and am shooting between in the zeros to .3s. On these days a match primer for me can be the difference between a 1/4 MOA group and a 1/2 MOA group. Like I said, probably not enough to make a real world difference, but a difference none the less. I've recently swapped over the Federal 210M primers, after a very bad experience with BR2s. Out of a single box of 1000 primers, I had one particular packet of 100 that had 23 duds in it. The rest of the primers in that box had my groups going screwy. I thought it was me. I decided to try a different primer and all was well again. I guess I just got a bad batch of BR2s. Still, I have a bad taste when it comes to them, so I'll stick with the Federals.
I've noticed a difference. I don't know that it's enough to make a difference to most. Although only at 100 yards, I've had days when I'm really on and am shooting between in the zeros to .3s. On these days a match primer for me can be the difference between a 1/4 MOA group and a 1/2 MOA group. Like I said, probably not enough to make a real world difference, but a difference none the less. I've recently swapped over the Federal 210M primers, after a very bad experience with BR2s. Out of a single box of 1000 primers, I had one particular packet of 100 that had 23 duds in it. The rest of the primers in that box had my groups going screwy. I thought it was me. I decided to try a different primer and all was well again. I guess I just got a bad batch of BR2s. Still, I have a bad taste when it comes to them, so I'll stick with the Federals.
Re: Do match primers really make a difference?
They are probably made the same way, but may have more inspections and or QC checks or made on shifts with more experiences people. I don't think you can do a test and prove a difference in any sort of repeatable way - but there may be a statistical edge in reliability over large numbers of them. I always buy them.
They are probably made the same way, but may have more inspections and or QC checks or made on shifts with more experiences people. I don't think you can do a test and prove a difference in any sort of repeatable way - but there may be a statistical edge in reliability over large numbers of them. I always buy them.
Re: Do match primers really make a difference?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This has been tested before, handloadermagazine.com (Dec-Jan 2009) conducted a test using a particular load and the only variable was the primer. In summary the changing in brand and type of primers can change group size up to .313 of inch.(Page 78 SciuChetti) I have done my own testing with wolf, cci br-2, and fed 210m. Everyone swore up and down about wolf primers and I guess I just got a bad lot because it ended up being the worst and I ended up not using them after 20 rounds, CCI Br-2 and Fed 210m:
H¬0: variances are equal
Ha: variances are not equal
2.)f-test
3.)α=.05
4.)Do not reject H0 if the p-value ≥ α
reject H0 if the p-value < α
5.) F-Test (Normal Distribution)
Test statistic = 0.82, p-value = 0.852
6.)since the p-value = .852 > .05, we do not reject the H0.
7.) Therefore, the variances may be assumed to be equal.
Between the Fed and CCI match primers the variances are equal using an alpha of .05, however I found that my groups where 8% better using the Feds..go figure. Since I live in Idaho getting the BR-2s have been a lot easier to get with the O-scare so that is what I have been using.
Also note that the above hand loader magazine test did not use wolf primers in the experiment, I know of world class palma shooters who swear by these, again I did not have such luck.</div></div>
Here is the problem with switching a component and running a test... the original load was developed based on a specific set of components. To do a true apples-to-apples comparison, you would have to work up a new load optimized to that primer.
Now I can see this working for match vs not match on the same brand as the targeted ignition energy is the same for match vs non match. But to test wolf vs federal vs CCI on a load that was originally worked up based on one of those primers is not a fair comparison.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This has been tested before, handloadermagazine.com (Dec-Jan 2009) conducted a test using a particular load and the only variable was the primer. In summary the changing in brand and type of primers can change group size up to .313 of inch.(Page 78 SciuChetti) I have done my own testing with wolf, cci br-2, and fed 210m. Everyone swore up and down about wolf primers and I guess I just got a bad lot because it ended up being the worst and I ended up not using them after 20 rounds, CCI Br-2 and Fed 210m:
H¬0: variances are equal
Ha: variances are not equal
2.)f-test
3.)α=.05
4.)Do not reject H0 if the p-value ≥ α
reject H0 if the p-value < α
5.) F-Test (Normal Distribution)
Test statistic = 0.82, p-value = 0.852
6.)since the p-value = .852 > .05, we do not reject the H0.
7.) Therefore, the variances may be assumed to be equal.
Between the Fed and CCI match primers the variances are equal using an alpha of .05, however I found that my groups where 8% better using the Feds..go figure. Since I live in Idaho getting the BR-2s have been a lot easier to get with the O-scare so that is what I have been using.
Also note that the above hand loader magazine test did not use wolf primers in the experiment, I know of world class palma shooters who swear by these, again I did not have such luck.</div></div>
Here is the problem with switching a component and running a test... the original load was developed based on a specific set of components. To do a true apples-to-apples comparison, you would have to work up a new load optimized to that primer.
Now I can see this working for match vs not match on the same brand as the targeted ignition energy is the same for match vs non match. But to test wolf vs federal vs CCI on a load that was originally worked up based on one of those primers is not a fair comparison.
Re: Do match primers really make a difference?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Here is the problem with switching a component and running a test... the original load was developed based on a specific set of components. To do a true apples-to-apples comparison, you would have to work up a new load optimized to that primer.
Now I can see this working for match vs not match on the same brand as the targeted ignition energy is the same for match vs non match. But to test wolf vs federal vs CCI on a load that was originally worked up based on one of those primers is not a fair comparison. </div></div>
+1 here
Id imagine you could work up a load for each primer that shoots just as well as the next, but switching primers between one load sounds like bad news for accuracy.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Here is the problem with switching a component and running a test... the original load was developed based on a specific set of components. To do a true apples-to-apples comparison, you would have to work up a new load optimized to that primer.
Now I can see this working for match vs not match on the same brand as the targeted ignition energy is the same for match vs non match. But to test wolf vs federal vs CCI on a load that was originally worked up based on one of those primers is not a fair comparison. </div></div>
+1 here
Id imagine you could work up a load for each primer that shoots just as well as the next, but switching primers between one load sounds like bad news for accuracy.
Re: Do match primers really make a difference?
I recently tried match primers. I get a much lower ES and SD which gives me smaller groups downrange. It makes a huge differance at 800 but you can't tell the differance in groups at 300 or less.
Previously, I used the standard CCI's. I tried the CCI bench rest primers (BR2). I got no improvement. For some reason, my gun really likes the Federal match primers. It might have nothing to do with them being match primers, but for some reason, my gun really seems to like them.
The only way to know for sure is to try them.
I recently tried match primers. I get a much lower ES and SD which gives me smaller groups downrange. It makes a huge differance at 800 but you can't tell the differance in groups at 300 or less.
Previously, I used the standard CCI's. I tried the CCI bench rest primers (BR2). I got no improvement. For some reason, my gun really likes the Federal match primers. It might have nothing to do with them being match primers, but for some reason, my gun really seems to like them.
The only way to know for sure is to try them.
Re: Do match primers really make a difference?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This has been tested before, handloadermagazine.com (Dec-Jan 2009) conducted a test using a particular load and the only variable was the primer. In summary the changing in brand and type of primers can change group size up to .313 of inch.(Page 78 SciuChetti) I have done my own testing with wolf, cci br-2, and fed 210m. Everyone swore up and down about wolf primers and I guess I just got a bad lot because it ended up being the worst and I ended up not using them after 20 rounds, CCI Br-2 and Fed 210m:
H¬0: variances are equal
Ha: variances are not equal
2.)f-test
3.)α=.05
4.)Do not reject H0 if the p-value ≥ α
reject H0 if the p-value < α
5.) F-Test (Normal Distribution)
Test statistic = 0.82, p-value = 0.852
6.)since the p-value = .852 > .05, we do not reject the H0.
7.) Therefore, the variances may be assumed to be equal.
Between the Fed and CCI match primers the variances are equal using an alpha of .05, however I found that my groups where 8% better using the Feds..go figure. Since I live in Idaho getting the BR-2s have been a lot easier to get with the O-scare so that is what I have been using.
Also note that the above hand loader magazine test did not use wolf primers in the experiment, I know of world class palma shooters who swear by these, again I did not have such luck.</div></div>
Here is the problem with switching a component and running a test... the original load was developed based on a specific set of components. To do a true apples-to-apples comparison, you would have to work up a new load optimized to that primer.
Now I can see this working for match vs not match on the same brand as the targeted ignition energy is the same for match vs non match. But to test wolf vs federal vs CCI on a load that was originally worked up based on one of those primers is not a fair comparison.</div></div>
I would tend to disagree, I have a data table that keeps all things equal only thing that changed was the primers and it shows primers do make a difference. Funny thing I use BR-2s and they came in dead last. PM me and I'll send it to you.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This has been tested before, handloadermagazine.com (Dec-Jan 2009) conducted a test using a particular load and the only variable was the primer. In summary the changing in brand and type of primers can change group size up to .313 of inch.(Page 78 SciuChetti) I have done my own testing with wolf, cci br-2, and fed 210m. Everyone swore up and down about wolf primers and I guess I just got a bad lot because it ended up being the worst and I ended up not using them after 20 rounds, CCI Br-2 and Fed 210m:
H¬0: variances are equal
Ha: variances are not equal
2.)f-test
3.)α=.05
4.)Do not reject H0 if the p-value ≥ α
reject H0 if the p-value < α
5.) F-Test (Normal Distribution)
Test statistic = 0.82, p-value = 0.852
6.)since the p-value = .852 > .05, we do not reject the H0.
7.) Therefore, the variances may be assumed to be equal.
Between the Fed and CCI match primers the variances are equal using an alpha of .05, however I found that my groups where 8% better using the Feds..go figure. Since I live in Idaho getting the BR-2s have been a lot easier to get with the O-scare so that is what I have been using.
Also note that the above hand loader magazine test did not use wolf primers in the experiment, I know of world class palma shooters who swear by these, again I did not have such luck.</div></div>
Here is the problem with switching a component and running a test... the original load was developed based on a specific set of components. To do a true apples-to-apples comparison, you would have to work up a new load optimized to that primer.
Now I can see this working for match vs not match on the same brand as the targeted ignition energy is the same for match vs non match. But to test wolf vs federal vs CCI on a load that was originally worked up based on one of those primers is not a fair comparison.</div></div>
I would tend to disagree, I have a data table that keeps all things equal only thing that changed was the primers and it shows primers do make a difference. Funny thing I use BR-2s and they came in dead last. PM me and I'll send it to you.
Re: Do match primers really make a difference?
That is the problem though, all things are equal. When you worked up that load you were using X primer. Then once you dialed it in for X primer, you threw A, B, C, and D primers in there to compare...but that load was not optimized for ABCD primers, it was optimized for X.
The true test for comparing primers is to work up an individual load from scratch with each primer, then compare groups. And even then you could get totally different results with two different guns.
That is the problem though, all things are equal. When you worked up that load you were using X primer. Then once you dialed it in for X primer, you threw A, B, C, and D primers in there to compare...but that load was not optimized for ABCD primers, it was optimized for X.
The true test for comparing primers is to work up an individual load from scratch with each primer, then compare groups. And even then you could get totally different results with two different guns.
Re: Do match primers really make a difference?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EddieNFL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Depends on the load. Usually, they're no better, occasionally not as good and sometimes noticeably better.
</div></div>
+1. Same for me. Just gotta try and see what works best in any particular load.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EddieNFL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Depends on the load. Usually, they're no better, occasionally not as good and sometimes noticeably better.
</div></div>
+1. Same for me. Just gotta try and see what works best in any particular load.
Re: Do match primers really make a difference?
Guys, I'm getting 75fps faster out of the exact same load with as good or better results with a CCI 250 primer over a BR-2 primer. Same gun, same charge, same bullet and same COAL. Primers do matter. That's all I'm saying. Real world data. check my post in the reloading depot.
Guys, I'm getting 75fps faster out of the exact same load with as good or better results with a CCI 250 primer over a BR-2 primer. Same gun, same charge, same bullet and same COAL. Primers do matter. That's all I'm saying. Real world data. check my post in the reloading depot.
Re: Do match primers really make a difference?
Just bought a new rifle. Waiting on glass to arrive. Just got some nice premium brass and match bullets. The reloading book says to use Federal 210M Match primers. I can't find them anywhere. Four local retailers don't have any in stock and there's nothing I can find online. I want this rifle to be as accurate as possible. Should I start with conventional large rifle primers, and when I can find match primers switch and see if there is a difference? Are benchrest primers the same thing? I'm on a mission to shoot out to 800 yards. Thoughts? Thanks?
Just bought a new rifle. Waiting on glass to arrive. Just got some nice premium brass and match bullets. The reloading book says to use Federal 210M Match primers. I can't find them anywhere. Four local retailers don't have any in stock and there's nothing I can find online. I want this rifle to be as accurate as possible. Should I start with conventional large rifle primers, and when I can find match primers switch and see if there is a difference? Are benchrest primers the same thing? I'm on a mission to shoot out to 800 yards. Thoughts? Thanks?
Re: Do match primers really make a difference?
My targets and Chronograph tell me there is no difference between Fed 210 and 210m, my wallet feels slightly heavier when I buy Fed 210's though..................................
My targets and Chronograph tell me there is no difference between Fed 210 and 210m, my wallet feels slightly heavier when I buy Fed 210's though..................................
Re: Do match primers really make a difference?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Robot Doc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys, I'm getting 75fps faster out of the exact same load with as good or better results with a CCI 250 primer over a BR-2 primer. Same gun, same charge, same bullet and same COAL. Primers do matter. That's all I'm saying. Real world data. check my post in the reloading depot. </div></div>
Thats because CCi 250 is a magnum primer and BR2 are not, compare the BR2 and CCi 200's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Robot Doc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys, I'm getting 75fps faster out of the exact same load with as good or better results with a CCI 250 primer over a BR-2 primer. Same gun, same charge, same bullet and same COAL. Primers do matter. That's all I'm saying. Real world data. check my post in the reloading depot. </div></div>
Thats because CCi 250 is a magnum primer and BR2 are not, compare the BR2 and CCi 200's
Re: Do match primers really make a difference?
Here is another read on the topic. Enjoy
http://www.btgresearch.org/High-speed%20measurement%20of%20rifle%20primer%20blast%20waves.pdf
Here is another read on the topic. Enjoy
http://www.btgresearch.org/High-speed%20measurement%20of%20rifle%20primer%20blast%20waves.pdf
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