Do these number look right to you? 223 reloading data.

[NJRaised]

I’ve had a bear of time getting loads correct for a 223 rem . ES/SD has been through the roof. Tried a new process. Not sure if I’m working brass too hard , or if you have any other pointers. Open to suggestions if you see a problem. My chamber measures 1.460” on my comparator for once fired brass (it’s on the short end). On virgin brass, with a loaded 75 eldm, neck OD is .248”.



223 brass ( starline once fired, decapped, tumbled, annealed):
Neck ID: .225”
Neck OD: .252”
Headspace comparator: 1.460”

After FL resizing w/ .247” bushing:
Neck ID: .220”
Neck OD: .246
Headspace comparator: 1.458”

After running mandrel (.223”):
Neck ID: .222”
Neck OD: .247”
Headspace comparator: 1.458”


Any pointers?

 

[MarshallDodge]

We need more info. What are your goals for ES/SD?

Powder, primer?

 

[NJRaised]

We need more info. What are your goals for ES/SD?

Powder, primer?

I’m asking more if the brass is being worked too hard or if there’s anything glaringly wrong with my brass prep.

Looking for ES under 15, half moa groups . CCI small rifle primers, 24.5 grain varget, eldm’s seated 20-30 thou off lands.

 

[themightytimmah]

Did you try it without the mandrel just doing .003 of neck tension vs .001? Sometimes guns like more tension. Also how did you get to the powder charge? I’d try a ladder for ES there too, maybe a small adjustment burns more consistently.

 

[NJRaised]

Long story short…, my 223 is chambered at the bare minimum. It’s in spec, but it’s short chambered. Virgin starline brass, measures exactly the same as once fired. Firing the Virgin brass, no matter what I did to the necks, the velocities were all over the place. Ended up having to FL size my virgin brass. Now I’m just trying to identify any potential mistakes before I out a second firing on this brass. I have not run a mandrel before, so I wanted input how the neck measurements look as to whether I’m working the brass too hard, need a different bushing, etc.

 

[NJRaised]

I worked a ladder up from 23.5-25 grains of varget, on virgin brass, and my ES was close to 100fps over 5 rounds, at each grain of powder . Different powder charges did not help.

 

[Ex E6]

I'm gonna ask the Obvious question : Is Your rifle capable of 0.5MOA ? Comparative with other bullet loadings and powders ?

 

[NJRaised]

Yes. It can put 10 rounds of factory match (FGMM) into 1/2” groups all day long. In fact , hornady match and FGMM both shoot incredible

 

[ma smith]

ES of 15 implies SD below 4...

In 223 rem, IME, Varget typically SD of 10-12ish ±1
The absolute best .223 powders are SD 7-8 range.

 

[simonp]

Long story short…, my 223 is chambered at the bare minimum. It’s in spec, but it’s short chambered. Virgin starline brass, measures exactly the same as once fired. Firing the Virgin brass, no matter what I did to the necks, the velocities were all over the place. Ended up having to FL size my virgin brass. Now I’m just trying to identify any potential mistakes before I out a second firing on this brass. I have not run a mandrel before, so I wanted input how the neck measurements look as to whether I’m working the brass too hard, need a different bushing, etc.

Didn’t you have a prior thread on the same topic & you were going to take the barrel back to the smith to be recut or are there a couple of folks with the same issue??

 

[MarshallDodge]

Yes. It can put 10 rounds of factory match (FGMM) into 1/2” groups all day long. In fact , hornady match and FGMM both shoot incredible

What kind of ES are you seeing with FGMM?

 

[NJRaised]

Didn’t you have a prior thread on the same topic & you were going to take the barrel back to the smith to be recut or are there a couple of folks with the same issue??

I did. Sent back to smith and zermatt. They both confirmed it was cut to absolute minimum chamber length. Bc it’s in spec, there’s nothing I could really send back to be replaced. So I just kept on shooting it

 

[NJRaised]

What kind of ES are you seeing with FGMM?

About 50fps.

 

[ShtrRdy]

An ES of 15 is really quite low.

It sounds like you are working with new or once fired Starline brass. Since the brass hasn't really been able to settle into a consistent sizing life cycle I would recommend taking 10 or 20 pieces and fire then process. After 3 or 4 firings start to monitor velocity. If you are still seeing more velocity spread than you would like measure the capacity of those 10 to 20 cases to see if you are dealing with a case volume variation.

 

[MarshallDodge]

About 50fps.

So 1/2" groups with 50fps ES. Not bad. You should be able to get into the upper 20s without a lot of effort, but an ES of 15 is going to be super difficult.

I've seen an ES of 20 but it wasn't easy-

Once fired Lapua brass, full length sized and run through a mandrel to set neck tension.

77 TMK, 23.2 8208 XBR, Federal 205 primer, 2.260 OAL.

Fired out of an 18" 1:8 twist Bartlein with a "Match" 223 chamber. Not sure on the exact dimensions but it is tight.

Also, be careful if you are wet tumbling your brass. It gets the inside of the neck completely dry and without carbon, and can create issues with consistent seating and neck tension. I dry tumble for this reason.

 

[NJRaised]

So 1/2" groups with 50fps ES. Not bad. You should be able to get into the upper 20s without a lot of effort, but an ES of 15 is going to be super difficult.

I've seen an ES of 20 but it wasn't easy-

Once fired Lapua brass, full length sized and run through a mandrel to set neck tension.

77 TMK, 23.2 8208 XBR, Federal 205 primer, 2.260 OAL.

Fired out of an 18" 1:8 twist Bartlein with a "Match" 223 chamber. Not sure on the exact dimensions but it is tight.

Yeah, the FGMM shoots excellent outta this gun. I mean damn excellent. The problem is it’s slow as hell, and it’s pricey.

I know the gun can do it (zermatt action w/ 24” proof 1:7). The question is, can the reloader replicate the results of factory ammo. I would certainly hope so.


The chamber is cut so short , that many factory match ammunitions would not chamber without forcing the bolt closed. Hornady match also shot very well, but about the half the rounds would not chamber.

 

[MarshallDodge]

FGMM shoots well because of the 77 SMK. It's a fantastic bullet if you are looking for accuracy in a fast twist, and is fairly insensitive to seating depth.

In my experience, the 75 ELD is going to want to be seated long.

 

[NJRaised]

What has your load work up consisted of?

Load work up hasn’t really started. I started running about 5-10 rounds at different powder charges and my es was abysmal. Up to 100 fps. So I decided to mandrel. More looking for input on my mandrel and sizing process, haven’t run a mandrel before. Wasn’t sure how much brass that mandrel should be moving.

 

[spife7980]

dang, thought I deleted and jet packed out before anyone would have seen it

223 is tough for great numbers, long skinny powder column.
Starline isn’t the best for great numbers.
I haven’t gotten great numbers with varget either but certainly not 100 fps.
At 100 fps I’d also question the chrono set up.

Don’t look at numbers when developing, look at the target.

Start with the 75 eld .020 off the lands and I would do a seating depth test at 24 gr varget, .005 increments out to .065 off the lands. See where that bullet likes to be at in your set up. Then try to fine tune the powder. In my experience a tenth of a grain can make a noticeable difference. (here come all the sample sizes and the development isn’t real crowd talking out their ass)

 

[Doom]

It is pretty much worthless to state a SD or ES without stating a number of shots on which it is based. Realistically a ES is going to be in the range of 6xSD not 4 with a sample that provides a reasonable estimate of SD.

 

[TommyD11730]

Looking for ES under 15,

On 223? Your a better man then I!

 

[Doom]

Don’t look at numbers when developing, look at the target.

Start with the 75 eld .020 off the lands and I would do a seating depth test at 24 gr varget, .005 increments out to .065 off the lands. See where that bullet likes to be at in your set up. Then try to fine tune the powder. In my experience a tenth of a grain can make a noticeable difference. (here come all the sample sizes and the development isn’t real crowd talking out their ass)

A little of the beaten path but important to keep in mind. @spife7980 brings up an important point. It's important to look at the target. It is often advised to not look at the Chronograph data but we seldom explain the reasoning behind it. Ballistically for a bullet to hit a target with repeatability and precision it requires that the bullet exit the barrel when the barrel is pointing in the same direction every time. Since the barrel vibrates this is most likely to occur when it is at the extreme end of the cycles when the deflection is greatest but the barrel velocity is the slowest. At this point the barrel is going to introduce a minimum amount of cross velocity to the bullet and the difference in muzzle velocity has minimal effect on the bullet point of impact at shorter ranges. Basically shooting load development groups at 100yds is about finding a powder charge that matches these requirements. Even large variations in velocity on the order of 100 fps have a very small effect on group size or shot location. We call the loads that result in small groups and repeatable POI's nodes. Lightweight barrels tend to show more sensitivity to changes in powder charge than heavier barrels because they vibrate at higher frequencies and with more deflection than heavier barrels.

Once a reloader knows this information he can then look at the specifics of this loading to reduce the variations in muzzle velocity. It is this variation that causes those small groups in terms of MOA at 100 yds to become larger groups at distance, along with the envirionmentals.

SD/ES tends to be more of a function of reloading consistency such as case prep and powder charge consistency than actual powder charge. It important to keep in mind that case fill is important and best results usually obtained when it is 90% or greater and it is desirable to have complete powder burnout in the barrel.

How a reloader gets to the end results is a function of many things with experience probably being the most important. The steps can and do very and are dependent on the shooters ability, the type of firearm, and the use of the firearm. Developing a load for a high power bench rest long range rifle is likely to be very different than for a 6lb hunting rifle.

 

[kyotekiller25]

From everything I've been seeing and reading, low ES/SD is super hard to achieve in a 223 because of the long skinny powder column.

I'll be doing serious load work up with 75g ELDMs and N540 once I get my bolt back from being bushed. I'll be keeping a close eye on my ES. But, I also don't get to hung up on numbers either. I let the targets down range tell the story. If I'm getting 1/2 MOA at 1K with an ES of 50, so be it who cares??

 

[Ex E6]

So 1/2" groups with 50fps ES. Not bad. You should be able to get into the upper 20s without a lot of effort, but an ES of 15 is going to be super difficult.

I've seen an ES of 20 but it wasn't easy-

Once fired Lapua brass, full length sized and run through a mandrel to set neck tension.

77 TMK, 23.2 8208 XBR, Federal 205 primer, 2.260 OAL.

Fired out of an 18" 1:8 twist Bartlein with a "Match" 223 chamber. Not sure on the exact dimensions but it is tight.

Also, be careful if you are wet tumbling your brass. It gets the inside of the neck completely dry and without carbon, and can create issues with consistent seating and neck tension. I dry tumble for this reason.

Candle smoking can correct that , I now use Tungsten Disulfide or Hexagonal Boron ,aka hBN . After ultrasonic cleaning and full case processing I apply a dab with an old lab pipette brush . I only use those precision built cartridges on special occasion .

 

[Ex E6]

Yes. It can put 10 rounds of factory match (FGMM) into 1/2” groups all day long. In fact , hornady match and FGMM both shoot incredible

Well if that's the case ,you might wish to consider extending bullet length and try adjusting FGMM rounds rather than rolling your own .

Just saying a Rifle which will shoot 0 .5 MOA with factory loads ,isn't anything to be worried about . As others have already suggested possible changes , I'd think about another powder as it may very well be to your benefit . Especially if your not getting Group sizes ,#'s be damned at this point what does the target say ?.