Do you guys shoot suppressed or unsuppressed for groups?

[Iamero]

Hey guys, just curious if you guys use your can when shooting your groups. The reason I ask is mostly because I haven’t had the time to run my loads suppressed and unsuppressed to see what the POI and accuracy difference is, if any.

I shot some 50gr fiocchi out of my factory Win70 223 1:9 and it’s like .6” groups all day. The same ammo out of my custom win70 223 1:8 suppressed is like 1.25”.

Is that a chamber variance, suppressor variance, twist variance, or something else? I know there are lots of rabbit holes we could go down with my previous question, so I just more want to focus on whether you see an increase, decrease, or no effect at all when using your suppressors.

I run an HTG Aris on my 223 and a Huntertown 308 (sucks they went under...it’s a cheap can anyways) can on my Rifles. Both direct thread.

 

[Iamero]

Here’s an example of why I ask these things. I loaded these for my factory rifle, put them in my match rifle, and this happened. Both times shot suppressed.

First group (7 shots):

Tonight’s group (same exact load):

 

[DuneShoot]

I run a suppressor on a grendel and a .260 semi. I'm still working on grendel loads but have the .260 pretty close to being dialed in.
Haven't tried a can on the JP .223 yet only because the barrel/muzzle brake blend looks so nice

 

[Iamero]

After doing some measuring I have a .08” jump using that load on my custom gun. Must have a long through for the heavies. I’ll try loading to lands tomorrow to test it.

 

[Bender]

Hey, I bought your Weaver 6-30... this is how it shot suppressed. I doubt I’ll shoot without it... this was a group of 5-6 shots... I forget. HOT barrel and can! 30-40rd string dialing out to 400-700 and this was the return to zero check. In gusty 15-20 mph winds.

 

[lash]

You are comparing apples to oranges. First off, you are shooting a load developed for one rifle in a different rifle, with a different twist rate. Secondly, you're adding can vs. no can into the mix and expecting to get a correlation between something and something completely different. Too many variables.

Find out what a good load shoots in one rifle then try that same load, in that same rifle, on the same day, with a can on it. Compare poi vs, poa and record it for both scenarios.

Then develop a load for the second rifle that shoots well and try the same load, in the same rifle, on the same day, using a can. Record poi vs. poa.

Then realize that it is usually best if you develop your load for a specific rifle while the rifle is configured how you will be shooting it most of the time. Or, you can create a compromise load that shoots best while the rifle is configured how it will be during most of your shooting and know the recorded difference for your other configuration.

Edit: for the record, my favorite .260 has a good load developed specifically for it, that shoots better when my 9" SAS Arbiter is attached. I now almost always shoot it suppressed, even in matches and even though a 26" barrel and a 9" can make for a lo-o-o-ng rifle.

 

[Iamero]

Haha yea it does. The more I thought about it, the more I realized there was a lot of open ends on what I was doing here. My custom 223 almost always wears the suppressor, so I’m going to do some load development today and see what sort of results I get.

On a random side note, how much does case volume effect load to load? I have a ton of lake city and Winchester brass and I notice that my powder charge will fill one up to the base of the shoulder while the same charge fills another up to the base of the neck.

 

[lash]

If you are looking for accuracy and minimal roun to round variation, separate your brass by manufacturer at the minimum. Case volumes vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and even sometimes from lot to lot. You will find that people getting the most consistent accuracy and low ES SD numbers are not only keeping brass separate from different makers but also lot to lot.

 

[Iamero]

So I shot suppressed and unsuppressed today on some 55 vmax and accuracy was no different. Just a 2” vertical POI shift. Groups sucked touching the lands and .005” jam.

Switch to 77gr Noslers and shot 22.9gr and 23.2gr IMR XBR loaded to the lands. Is it normally for .3 grains to make such an accuracy difference?

Also, the problem is my max load of 23.2gr produces the best accuracy but also is flattening primers a bit and making the bolt a little “chunky” on the way up.

Where do you go from here? Powder change? Lower the charge a ways and do OCW then play with seating depth? Scrap the barrel and get a new one spun up? Also thought about getting some black hills or Sierra and seeing what happens.

 

[lash]

Have you done an OCW yet? If not, you now know where your pressure zone is, at 23.2g. So back down in .2g increments to find your next lower node. If you haven't already, read completely all of the OCW method here: http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com

And all of the related pages that Dan Newberry has linked. It does work.

 

[Iamero]

Not for the heavies. I’ll drop it down a full grain and do the .2 increments to see what happens. What are you starting at for load length? I know some people do it all at a .01-.02 jump but I’ve always had more luck touching or kissing into the lands a hair.

 

[lash]

So start your OCW at the lands and once you find your node, do a seating depth test on that load. It only needs to be three or so different seating depths. One of them will likely show you that it's the one for your rifle.

 

[Iamero]

Range report. Loaded to the lands and shot the following groups. I’m VERY happy to see that the highest charge provides the best accuracy as well. I think I’ve definitely determined this gun hates a jump. I was shooting factory hornady 75gr HPBT and factory 73 ELD and both groups were absolute garbage again; like 1.25”.

So now would you shoot a 5 Shot string of that 21.8 and leave depth where it’s at?

 

[ThePretzel]

When I shoot the rifle in competitions or for fun I use a suppressor. Why would I develop a load with the rifle missing something I plan to almost always use?

If you don't plan to use it then you can develop it either way, but I haven't seen any changes in group size or POI personally with an Ultra 9 mounted on top of a brake whether it's on or off the rifle.

 

[trob_205]

I shoot suppressed for everything.

 

[300ATT]

Test it the way that you are going to shoot it in the field.

I do tests with and without the suppressor just to see what the difference is if any. Sometimes it makes no difference other times it does and then I have to decide if I will use the suppressor or not (hate shooting w/o the suppressor).