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Do you worry about lost fundamentals?

ChrisBCS

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 8, 2014
312
0
So, having had the "spiritual awakening" that arsenal rebuilt military issued surplus rifles are capable of comparable performance to modern equipment, I'm developing some, uhh, stronger opinions.

I'm 29. My father qualified expert in the USMC with an M14. My grandfather on my Father's side was on Guadalcanal and elsewhere during the Solomon Islands Campaign. He used an M1903 before being injured by a Japanese grenade.

These are the two men who taught me the fundamentals of rifle shooting as a kid and growing up.

At risk of sounding crotchety before I deserve to, there are many things I see on rifle ranges today that disturb me. Things that make it clear no fundamentals were passed down.

I realized that I may be one of the last generations who will have been taught the fundamental art of the rifle by those who qualified with high power rifles, and who actually had to use them. Does this have any significant implications for the future of marksmanship, and does it worry anyone else?
 
Yes and no.

Warfare evolves and has so greatly since your father/grandfather fired their rifles. Earlier on in WW2, you had to make your round count as you primarily had a bolt gun with <10 rounds in the magazine. As more automatics were introduced, volume of fire for suppression and maneuver became more prevalent as you no longer had to 'center' that tactic around a platoon based MG. Now, you have drones that can spot shit miles away and hit it with a missile or guide artillery towards it without the rifleman having to engage it.

However, being able to use the rifle properly as far as marksmanship is always a great benefit and infantry with rifles are not going away anytime soon. In Afghanistan you've heard about longer range engagements that always bring on the argument that the 5.56 round is inadequate, our standard optics are inadequate, a 16" carbine is inadequate, etc. While this is a WHOLE different argument, superiority by fire at longer ranges requires you to be able to actually shoot.

But yes, I do agree with you a bit, overall marksmanship training has gone to the wayside in favor or different tactics, equipment and utilization of infantry.
 
Do you worry about lost fundamentals?

I wake up in a cold sweat nearly every morning over this very thing.
 
Everyone's first rifle should be a bolt-action with irons. Once you learn to master that, you'll be able to make your own decisions about optics/platforms later, but you'll always have the fundamentals to fall back on.
 
I don't worry about my fundamentals. But I worry and scream an yell about what the Army is doing! Nothing was worse (for me) then getting a fresh Boot from AIT that never used Irons or made his own adjustments on the CCO M68 (Aimpoint). The USMC BRM should be followed by all Services.
 
Yes the loss of fundamentals worries me but what worries me more is I see very few young shooters compared to 20-30 years ago. Most of the shooters at my gun club range are between 50 and 80+.
 
Be happy there are new shooters. Encourage them regardless of why they are attracted to the game.

I could care less how well they shoot as long as they are safe and they are passionate enough about their hobby that they will defend it.

If technology makes it easier for a new shooter to get hooked (or a soldier to kill an enemy) its a good thing. Once they get the bug they find places like this and start to learn the history and theory of shooting.

The most important thing we can do to become better shooters is to infect 2, 4, 6, or 8 other people with our enthusiasm to make small objects travel through time, space making small holes despite changing environmental conditions.
 
Yes the loss of fundamentals worries me but what worries me more is I see very few young shooters compared to 20-30 years ago. Most of the shooters at my gun club range are between 50 and 80+.

I enjoyed shooting when I was young. A $10 brick of .22 (shocking) and my 10-22 made for some good shooting. Than I went in the USMC and I became gun averse as guns were punishment/make work (No 96 unless all the guns are clean and in the Armory!). Not only that but guns became expensive and young guys have other prioroties to spend money on. Harleys are not cheap.

Than you get established. The kids come along and the solo/ with wife Harley rides become a thing of the past. With the extra income and needing a hobby (as well a new career that involves firearms) had me buying "just one rifle". My age drew me to M1's and 03's. The younger era is drawn to AR's, AK's and combat optics (not all younger shooters but Call of Duty kind of conditions it).

With the cost of getting set up to shoot today - club, equipment, expendables - its not a cheap sport. Young people are priced out of the game unless a family member gets them hooked. There is little exposure through things like Boy Scouts or school teams. Todays young generation has little to look forward to. School loans, cost of housing, loss of good manufacturing jobs and the watering down of the College degree makes it seem they have an extended time living in Moms basement ahead of them.

Its a shame that the cost of the shooting can be prohibitive to enjoying it. I wish I had the vision today that I had back when I was cash strapped.
 
Stop worrying about it and take new people to the range. That's what I do. Only way we're going to keep our sport/hobby from dying is to introduce new people to it. Admittedly I'm 24, so meeting new people and getting them to the range is a lot easier for me. Though the sentiment is still there. Be proactive, become and instructor, run for school board and reinstate a shooting team, etc. Standing by complacent never helped anyone.
 
I wouldn’t worry about it too much, there are still a few of us who are good stewards of the knowledge pasted down to us. The civilian sectors historically seem to keep the fire burning through the dark nights.

Though I'd admit it is dishearten to watch the regular army attempts to throw off the mantel of responsibility when it comes to teaching marksmanship, I dread to imagine the state of the army in 10 to 15 years. One of their big goals over the last few years is to minimum training time and ammo used while maintaining small arms lethality. Think CCO, RCO, Land Warrior etc…etc. They've really hit it hard by dumping money into technology which is great, just look at the small arms development that as grown out of GWOT but a $40,000 dollar optic is just a $40,000 paperweight if the guy shooting it has no fundamentals.

And don't even get me started about machine gun theory, so much of that has been lost it sickening.

If you’re truly concerned about it, soak up as much as you can now and become a source of knowledge for the future generations.
 
If you’re truly concerned about it, soak up as much as you can now and become a source of knowledge for the future generations.

This is what I'm hoping to do to the best of my ability. I wish something like the USMC course was available to civilians in some form. It's also just dawning on me the breadth of collective information available on this site. The site name itself, of all things, had me shying away at first.
 
Today I watch so-called SWAT teams going into buildings with scopes mounted atop their rifles...the military does the same thing and I'm sitting watching all this thinking.....how in the hell can these guys pick up their targets with a narrowed down field of view through a scope when all in the world needed is a decent pair of irons and being taught how to use them. Shortly after the first war in Iraq a buddy of mine that I shot with in the military called me and told me that he wanted me to go assist him and some guys at Ft. Hood who would teach marksmanship to a large group of ground pounders headed to Iraq. My immediate response to him was "You mean we've got a 500 BILLION $$$$ military budget but the US Army doesn't have marksmanship instructors?" In short...his response back was that since all the USAMTU field units had been abandoned 11 years earlier....that marksmanship training had taken a backseat to other things. My buddy whom lives in Brunswick, Georgia advised that he had just gotten back from Ft. Hood where he and ten other guys had just completed a ten day course there for a large group and that 800 soldiers had walked by them two days prior and that each one shook the hands of the instructors there (all old heads by the way) and some had said that they had been in the military as long as 16 years and that during the previous ten days of instruction had learned more about marksmanship than they had ever been exposed to in the military! THAT truly astounded me because when I was in.....you were taught how to shoot and went to the range on a regular basis! At one time in America there were approximately 447 colleges and universities that offered a full four year scholarship to youngsters that had fired on their school teams and who showed promise toward being a winning team member! Now...I'd bet there aren't but very few schools offering scholarships for shooting! In my opinion we have graduated from a NATION OF RIFLEMEN to a NATION OF IDIOTS!!
 
Marksmanship excellence will again become a mandate when, and only when the folks who write the budgets get it into their heads that it's actually a necessity. It seems apparent that complex technology has become their primary mantra, and that the 'pounder's need to defeat enemy targets or even defend themselves has taken a back seat, waaayyy back. When times come around to cuts, it's not the big items that get cut when the axes fly. It appears nobody with the right sort of 'leverage' is pushing marksmanship excellence. Maybe somebody should look into that, rather than lamenting like babes in the wilderness...

On the civilian range, my manner is to say, "Hey that's a nice gun you got there, can I try it for a few rounds?" If there's a marked difference between my accuracy and their accuracy, they will usually ask me "Hey, how'd you make it do that". That's when the iron is hot to motivate them to ask for help. You can offer help, but many see that as judgmental and it turns them away. You can open up a course to all comers and what you'll get is kids whose parents make them come to it. They just may resent being there.

Without self motivation, there is often no desire to accomplish real learning.

Greg
 
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Stop worrying about it and take new people to the range. That's what I do. Only way we're going to keep our sport/hobby from dying is to introduce new people to it. Admittedly I'm 24, so meeting new people and getting them to the range is a lot easier for me. Though the sentiment is still there. Be proactive, become and instructor, run for school board and reinstate a shooting team, etc. Standing by complacent never helped anyone.

Very good point! I now work with a lot of guys in their early 20's; many are interested in shooting but do not know where to start. Getting them started goes a long way.
 
Sharpsman; In my opinion we have graduated from a NATION OF RIFLEMEN to a NATION OF IDIOTS!![/QUOTE said:
Ain't that a politician's dream?

100% with you on the colleges/universities shooting/scholarships issue; that's sad and true.

As auRora 145 says "...take new people to the range. That's what I do. Only way we're going to keep our sport/hobby from dying is to introduce new people to it."

United we stand, divided we fall; we can all make a difference.
 
Marksmanship training

I was lucky enough to have been trained by my Dad, and Grandfather first and later by Three old WWII and Korean Vets. One had been a USMC sniper in Korea and was amazing in has ability to move silently thru the woods as well as his marksmanship. I have attempted to pass this knowledge down to my three kids. I recently got to watch an old US military training film about shooting the M1 Garand and doping the wind. This was still educational. I am still learning after all these years and am now teaching myself the art of reading the wind, the mirage and adjusting for wind drift. One of my old mentors was an 82nd airborne trooper who landed at Anzio, and later at Normandy and fought his way across France and Germany.

I own a pristine original Remington model of the 1903-A1 rifle as well as a bunch of other newer black rifles. I also have a custom Mauser chambered for 270 that is my primary large game hunting rifle. I enjoy shooting at long distances and many years ago when I first got interested in long range shooting, we had access to a private range marked off in 100 meter increments to 500m and then on out to 1000yds. We used to shoot these distances all the time with 308's and 30/06 then later with other cartridges.

In my opinion, the rifleman with his personal weapon was the deciding factor in our winning the Revolutionary War, defeating with militia the greatest military power of the age. Later it also contributed to winning WWII. I fear that if we ever found ourselves embroiled in a massive shooting war again, our military might find itself in trouble should all the technology fail and we degenerate down to face to face fighting. Spray and pray is not a substitute for aimed fire. Our SOCOM guys know the value of marksmanship but they are much more highly trained than the average grunt and there simply are not enough of these amazing warriors. Plus there is a reason that most warriors are young men. After living thru a war, most men do not want to repeat the process and do it again. War will make one age quickly.

Regardless of what the US military chooses to do, we will each need skill at arms to protect ourselves and our families should things breakdown into chaos for any reason. Civilized society is a far more fragile state than most people are willing to admit. It does not take much upheaval to cause a temporary or even a long term breakdown of the rule of law. Dog eat dog rule of the jungle replaces the vacuum when society breaks down. When (not if) that happens, you better be ready and know what to do. Let's take just one example:

A high altitude nuclear blast triggered by a North Korean despot over Denver blacks out the entire Western USA. Damage to grid infrastructure is sufficient to require six months to repair. Your money being all in your debit account is out of reach, the food at the grocery is rotting, and you cannot pump gas without hand pumps. Plus the ECU's in the cars all fried since they were not hardened to an electro-magnetic pulse, so they will not run without repairs unless they were build before about 1986. Water and sewage treatment fails once the emergency generators burn out from days of continuous use and now without food, water, fuel or money, the desperate citizens of the west coast begin to forage into the countryside, stealing and killing whatever they can. The farmers and ranchers will be fine for a while but the city dwellers are another subject. They will become, either prey or predator. Any rancher unlucky enough to encounter a group of the later, had better have his chit wired tight and know what to do.

Skill at arms will both supply game for food and security when/if needed. As bad as that example sounds, it would be 10x worse of the east coast was the tgt. I am not a huge fan of country music but I am a fan of an old Hank Williams song that says, "Country Boy can Survive".

Irish
 
Marksmanship is a perishable skill. It is taught by the military, but today to the tip of the spear it is taught by civilians.
 
Marksmanship is a perishable skill. It is taught by the military, but today to the tip of the spear it is taught by civilians.


You know what? In 1775 our best marksman dropped their plows to pick up their custom rifles and March to Lexington. When the Continentals were formed they did what they could with volley fire and smooth bore muskets while the citizen soldier used his superior gear and cunning to deliver a hurt upon the worlds greatest power of the time.

Maybe there is value in dedicated civilians being the cadre.
 
The More things change, the more they become the same:

The concerns listed in these post are nothing new. After the Civil War several officers were concerned about the Marksmanship abilities of the military and the NRA was created.

In 1903 T. Roosevelt was concerned about the Marksmanship of the Military (or country as a whole) and created the "National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice". Establishing the Office of Director of Civilian Marksmanship. The DCM were task with creating and conduction the National Matches. The purpose was to instruct American Citizens marksmanship using Military Small Arms. The DCM were to provide surplus military arms to the Civilian populous and instruction of such arms. The problem, like everything else was funding. The DCM was dependent on each year's congressional budget.

This changed in 1996 when management of the DCM was given to civilians. The name was changed to the Civilian Marksmanship Program. No longer funded by congress, instead funded by the sales of surplus arms, ammunition, and other related equipment. Under the Congressional Charter of the Civilian Marksmanship Program, their mission was:

To Promote Firearm Safety and Marksmanship Training With an Emphasis on Youth

The CMP Vision:

That Every Youth in America Has the Opportunity to Participate in Firearm Safety and Marksmanship Programs

Subscribe to the CMP's "First Mark" to see how youth programs are expanding today. Mainly in JROTC and 4H Shooting programs.

The CMP is not just about youth but training Citizens, Civilian and Military in Marksmanship Fundamentals.

In the early 50s President Ike again saw the need for marksmanship training in the Military and created the Army Marksmanship Unit, not only to compete Nationally and Internationally, but to provide training to, not only the Army, but other services, and civilians as well. They were task with providing training material and to conduct the Small Arms Firing School's at the National Matches.

The AMU, like the original DCM are dependent on funding from Congress. In these days of budget cuts, the AMU like everyone else suffers. The CMP has taken over many of the programs of the AMU. The AMU lacks the funds to product the marksmanship material needed so the CMP has taken on the task of Printing/Producing and distributing the AMU Material.

The CMP has also started funding the Small Arms Firing Schools at the National Matches and providing the instructors for the SAFS with volunteers from their data base of Distinguished Rifle & Pistol Shooters and Certified CMP Master Instructors. The CMP also expanded the SAFS, besides the National Matches, the CMP conducts SAFSs at other events such as the Eastern & Western CMP Games, Oklahoma City Games, with plans on expanding it further.

They also provide volunteer instructors for Military Programs such as the "Designated Marksman Schools", again taking up the slack from the reduced funding of Military Services.

The CMP also, with their Master Instructor Programs, use these instructors to conduct Clinics throughout the nation at local CMP affiliated Clubs. The CMP also provided funding and support to local Civilian Clubs and 4-H Shooting Sports programs.

The NRA also provides funds to Civilian Clubs and Youth Groups, funded mostly by the Friends of the NRA programs. Most of our local range was funded by the NRA, they provide grants for ammo for our 4-H shooting program. They provide other grants also, I just received $3000 and purchased steel targets for our club and am waiting on approval of a grant to provide ammo for my Ladies Firearms Safety and Self Defense Classes.

The programs are out there, for funding and training, (independent of government funds) are out there to address the concerns listed here. We just need to reach out there and take advantage of these programs.

Browse the CMP web site. Civilian Marksmanship Program, not just the forms but the whole site. They list clinics, events, the material available and how to take advantage of their programs. They list upcoming clinics, and also provide a list of CMP Master Instructors who are willing to volunteer to conduct clinics in area clubs.

The main benefit of the CMP, in my opinion is that the program insures Marksmanship is available to everyone regardless of their financial status. Shooting shouldn't be a rich man's game.

An example is the GSM (surplus rifle) events, and Rimfire Sporter events. The program allows one to take a $100 surplus rifle and become competitive, the Rimfire Sporter doesn't require or even allow $1500 rifles, its limited to the 22 rifles found in every closet or attic.

You've all shown concerned about the quality of marksmanship in this country, reach out there for the assets to correct the problem and get involved. Don't depend on the Military to change is ideas of marksmanship training. It isn't going to happen. Never has, never will.

Its up to us.
 
The More things change, the more they become the same:


In 1903 T. Roosevelt was concerned about the Marksmanship of the Military (or country as a whole) and created the "National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice". Establishing the Office of Director of Civilian Marksmanship. The DCM were task with creating and conduction the National Matches. The purpose was to instruct American Citizens marksmanship using Military Small Arms. The DCM were to provide surplus military arms to the Civilian populous and instruction of such arms. The problem, like everything else was funding. The DCM was dependent on each year's congressional budget.

This changed in 1996 when management of the DCM was given to civilians. The name was changed to the Civilian Marksmanship Program. No longer funded by congress, instead funded by the sales of surplus arms, ammunition, and other related equipment. Under the Congressional Charter of the Civilian Marksmanship Program, their mission was...

....and Im always amazed when I meet shooters, you can tell they are into the sport, and they have never heard about the CMP, or they have heard about it and say its too much trouble to fill out the paperwork.

Sad. I press and press until they get on the site and see its value.
 
Funny you bring that up because our new state-issued PD quals... include one-handed shooting. Something I did all the time as a kid, but almost never did until the re-instituted the need to shoot one handed with both strong and support hand. So this past weekend, I spent 6 hours on the range working on what really is a fundamental skill. Yes, I passed the qual last year w.out trouble... as far as my score was concerned. But I was NOT happy with my comfort level or performance.

My 6 hours on the range turned into a whole lot of drawing, dry firing and strong/weak handed work on the basics. I came away feeling like I have been neglecting my basics, but that they came back pretty well with some range time.

An adage that I always liked is "Amateurs train until they get it right. Professionals train until they can't get it wrong." No truer words were ever spoken. I'll pass my quals fine, but given that my life and the lives of my fellow officers may someday depend on my ability to fire one-handed, support side. I will keep working on this...

To dial this back to the OP's thought about fundamentals... they are called fundamentals for a reason. Trigger control, breath control, sight alignment, wind reading... etc. etc. etc. are still more important than all the carbon fiber, GPS-enabled, gee-whiz cartridges. If you have the fundamentals, those things will help. If you don't have the fundamentals, they are not worth the $$ you spend on them.

Last, reminds me the value of a good .22 or air rifle. Because that's where you learn the fundamentals.

Just my 2 percent of a dollar. YMMV, As seen on TV, offer not valid in Arkansas, etc.

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
I'll pass my quals fine, but given that my life and the lives of my fellow officers may someday depend on my ability to fire one-handed, support side.

Interesting. I'd include protecting civilian lives in my list somehow. But, keeping it in context, and in all fairness, if you're down to having only one hand usable, you'd more than likely be fighting for your own life at that point like you said.
 
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This is my first post. I'm 23 years old, when I was 10, my father and god father taught me to shoot a Colt 1911, and an Inland M-1 Carbine. By the time I was 16 I was comfortable with 8mm Mausers, 1903 spring fields, Garands, SMLE's, Mosin Nagants, single shot .45-70's, double guns, etc... I never thought it was weird, so I never said anything about it. I started going to a four year college, a politcal science major, minors in history and sociology(which I only took because I was usually the only straight male) but anyways. I was usually the only one in most of my classes that was not a socialist, I know that may seem a little extreme, but I'm not kidding. These people, my "peers" actually believe the government knows best for everyone, and is a tool to redistribute wealth. In 2013, reparations for descendants of slaves is actually discussed as a legitimate course of action. There were a few "right wing" individuals, a hand full, but they were bible thumping war mongers, who could never defend their views, which only validated the rest of the classes opinion that any and all "right wing" philosophy is absolutely insane. When classmates found out I was a gun owner, I was met with many different reactions, women recoiled in disgust, the boys and men became less vocal about anti gun ideals, maybe so they didn't seem less "masculine" as if that had anything to do with it. I moved to AZ I went to gunsmith school and now I build "high power rifles". But I would be seriously worried if I were you, its better here in AZ, as far as the youth involvement in firearms, but it's still weak, and most of the younger ones only want guns that are in their video games AK's, AR's etc... which isn't necessarily bad, because I would consider M1A's and FN FALs high power rifles. Either way, there is no way the youth demographic can afford most high power rifles, and the 200$ 8mm mausers with clean bores aren't good enough for the ones who can afford guns, who usually have glocks and AK's, which again isn't a bad thing, but yes, the art of shooting high power rifles off hand is disappearing. How ever those that are my age + or - 5 years, who are gun owners, are pretty damn competent with our Ak's and AR's. All is not lost, but damn, it's a frustrating situation.
 
One reason why the British Army was so late in introducing full-auto (or even semi-auto) weapons as main battle rifles was a greater emphasis on marksmanship over pure weight of fire and a lack of trust in rank-and-file squaddies to make rounds count if issued with anything other than bolt action rifles. You only have to go back to the debate over the introduction of the L1A1 SLR (FN) in the '60's to see how long this debate raged.

Other nations seemed more comfortable more quickly - even if a basic comparison of figures of US kills per rounds fired between WW2 and Vietnam could be interpreted to show the disparity between aimed vs. weight of fire as a tactical doctrine.

Weight of fire has an important role to play....but I'd say fundamentals of marksmanship, safety and muzzle awareness are a basic necessity and hope they long remain so in all forms of shooting - sadly it is all too common to see these ignored routinely here in the UK on both civilian and LE shoots.
 
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even if a basic comparison of figures of US kills per rounds fired between WW2 and Vietnam could be interpreted to show the disparity between aimed vs. weight of fire as a tactical doctrine.

Not really, hard to figure Aimed Shots in Vietnam where a huge majority of the time you never saw who you were shooting at. It was one unseen combatant shooting at another woodline with unseen combatants.

There is a time for firepower, the combatant putting the most fire into the wood line wins. Firepower has its place.

WWI was a perfect example of this, in static lines, firing at a head popping out of a trench took marksmanship, but when you climb out of the trenches in the assault, its about firepower.
 
Kraig, I don't disagree - I probably wasn't clear in my use of the phrase "could be interpreted".

Maybe I should have said "misinterpreted"?

Either way......any loss of focus on fundamentals in any form of firearms training(civilian, LE or mil) is to be decried
 
Wow. This thread has turned out fantastic. I've been really busy (defended Ph.D.), but now I'm back around and really enjoying reading through.
 
Wow. This thread has turned out fantastic. I've been really busy (defended Ph.D.), but now I'm back around and really enjoying reading through.

Ok... since I am down to editing mis-placed commas in the citations in my Masters Thesis (Military History... graduation in 4 weeks...)... doctoral defenses are also an interesting topic! Please do tell what your doctorate is in? And how your dissertation defense went?

Yes, you started a good thread, Chris... Thanks!

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
I've ever had the opinion that firepower is something that can be quite plainly put in use,as readily available, by the military and L.E.agencies at a flick of the wrist, when the marksmanship is something that the single individual can master and treasure even outside or after his service_
aside the cost issues, and the progress of other war tehcnologies, I've the plain sensation that this could have been and could be the real obstacle to teaching marksmanship, of course inside the limits of "my" (quite limited) army service experience_
 
Ok... since I am down to editing mis-placed commas in the citations in my Masters Thesis (Military History... graduation in 4 weeks...)... doctoral defenses are also an interesting topic! Please do tell what your doctorate is in? And how your dissertation defense went?

Yes, you started a good thread, Chris... Thanks!

Cheers,

Sirhr

Congrats!!! That format checking can be a real bear!

My PhD is in paleoclimatology. Basically, I use the chemistry of things like cave deposits, corals, and other things to reconstruct pre-historic climate variability. My particular area is the West Pacific, the "heat engine" for the planet. I've worked in the Solomon Islands. Flown out of Henderson on Guadalcanal, landed on an enormous bomber airstrip in New Georgia, worked in caves where Japanese were picked off (also been all over Vanuatu). My primary samples used in my dissertation research came from 1) a cave on Mount Austen (as in, the Battle of Mount Austen), and 2) the island Kennedy swam to after deciding to leave Plum Pudding Island. My formal training is in Chemistry, Oceanography and Climate Science.
 
Who mentioned the call of duty stuff?

ARGH. Mini-rant. I go to my local range at lunch time. Usually either just retirees or the odd person on their day off. Otherwise it's all to myself.

I'm the only one on the line (there during lunch). Drives up in his BMW, early-mid 20s. He sits with one bench position in between us. Nobody ever told him firing line etiquette is like urinal etiquette. I figure, ok, no biggie. Until he pulls out an AR15... and he's sitting to my left. Ok, I know how this is going to go. I ask if he needs/wants range cold to go put down targets. "Nah brah, I'm just testing different kinds of ammo in my AR15." Verbatim. What the? Ok.

So he starts blasting away... at the 100 yd berm backstop. What?

Steel case is flying at me. "Usually when ya 'test' ammo, you want to see where the hell it goes... I've got plenty of scoring targets here if you want to set one up."

"No man, I have another place I go down in San Antonio to work on accuracy. I need steel plates, ya know?"

"No, not really."

He takes a break and starts coming over and trying to talk to me about my rifle. "what is that"...".30-06?? Jeez! How many rounds can you fire before it hurts too much. No thanks. I prefer my plastic."

...and several other comments about using his AR in the home, assaulter style.
 
Who mentioned the call of duty stuff?

ARGH. Mini-rant. I go to my local range at lunch time. Usually either just retirees or the odd person on their day off. Otherwise it's all to myself.

I'm the only one on the line (there during lunch). Drives up in his BMW, early-mid 20s. He sits with one bench position in between us. Nobody ever told him firing line etiquette is like urinal etiquette. I figure, ok, no biggie. Until he pulls out an AR15... and he's sitting to my left. Ok, I know how this is going to go. I ask if he needs/wants range cold to go put down targets. "Nah brah, I'm just testing different kinds of ammo in my AR15." Verbatim. What the? Ok.

So he starts blasting away... at the 100 yd berm backstop. What?

Steel case is flying at me. "Usually when ya 'test' ammo, you want to see where the hell it goes... I've got plenty of scoring targets here if you want to set one up."

"No man, I have another place I go down in San Antonio to work on accuracy. I need steel plates, ya know?"

"No, not really."

He takes a break and starts coming over and trying to talk to me about my rifle. "what is that"...".30-06?? Jeez! How many rounds can you fire before it hurts too much. No thanks. I prefer my plastic."

...and several other comments about using his AR in the home, assaulter style.

Well if that is the best we have to work with than try to reach out and have him turn from the darkness.

Lots of new people are getting into shooting sports either as a supplement to call of duty, they have some sort of concern based on the political climate or they are looking to increase the security of their family. Who knows what your guy was into but I sympathize with your frustration.

Try to engage the uneducated in conversation and try to manipulate them into learning. I think most new shooters are intimidated when they go to the range and they realize their skills need improvement but they don't know how to ask and they don't want to look like they don't know what they are doing.

More than likely your guy hoped that the range was empty when he showed up so that he could try to practice without everyone seeing how bad he sucked. When he found the place occupied he put on the tough guy act and threw his ammo at the berm and made up a cockamamie story to explain it.

I go to the range a lot and everyone assumes I'm some great shooter. I'm far from it. A quick search will show some of my shotgun pattern targets. My problem is that I still try to get as many new shooters as possible to join me at the range and it breaks the myth that I know what I am doing. when they see me shoot it instills confidence in them that their skills are not so bad.

This was a shooter I met online looking for a chance to shoot in the Northeast and I got him hooked up with a unique opportunity



This is me making a lot of green men laugh at me and my irons



And when you are in an area like this shooting is only half the experience



Next time homey shows up try to get him engaged so that he loves the sport and he is willing to defend his right to continuing enjoying it.
 
More than worrying about LOST fundamentals, I am more concerned with people getting FUNDAMENTALS!

I was at an indoor range and the amount of lack of safety and awareness forces me to speak up to people. There was a guy named Bill on one side of me - salty dog - who was shooting a variety of Blackhawk revolvers (he said he has over 75). He was inquiring about my "black guns" that I was setting up some optics on. We talked about guns and reloading, etc. Got along great. On the other side of me is a couple of guys and a girlfriend that they were showing how to shoot. Occasionally Bill would stop mid sentence and have a concerned look on his face. After the second time, I looked behind me and after she was done shooting, she was swinging the muzzle from downrange, across my back and back to the guys where they would take the gun and reload it. I stopped and turned and asked sternly - "Please keep your muzzle pointed down range at all times and reload at the bench. Thanks."

Bill said - "Thanks - that was getting scary."

They may have been a bit perturbed, but I was nice, but stern. I won't stand for that lack of safety ANYWHERE. I think before being allowed at a range, you need to have proven you have taken gun safety. Period.

So my concern is that people are enamored with the gun culture and the availability of renting gun and machine guns without proper understanding of safety is of concern. Additionally, that people don't speak up immediately when they see behavior that needs to be corrected and lastly that the range I was at didn't have a range safety officer at the benches when it was that full and that many "new" people. I try to go only during the week - outside of peak hours just to avoid the weekend crowd.
 
Even the Marine Corps is having some issues as far as fundamentals go, I was a CMT and the new wave of boots had never qual'd with irons or made adjustments to their rco. I have all my CMC and CMT training material and am going to make my kids annually qual on their rifles, gonna have a grass week and everything