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Does Your Rifle Shoot Best Dirty?

Jakeonthekob

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Mar 8, 2018
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California
Does your rifle shoot better with a clean or dirty bore?

Since I don't get to shoot bolt action all that much, I figured out that my Howa 308 with Pacnor barrel shoots best dirty. I don't clean copper and now I barely clean for carbon.

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5 round group, first shot I pulled but the next 4 were definitely on at 100 yards.

Which way does your rifle shoot best?
 
dirty. from say 20-400 rounds. then clean and refoul. rinse and repeat. clean when groups go to shit or storing for a while
 
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My rifles seem to need three to five shots from a clean barrel to settle back down to the original poi and group size.


Mine as well. Also takes about four-five to get my velocities up where they should be (from a clean bore). I am starting today an experiment to see just exactly what my HMR can take as far as not cleaning. It is very difficult for my OCD though to see the copper streaks at the muzzle and convince myself that I am not harming anything by not cleaning. We'll see...
 
Mine as well. Also takes about four-five to get my velocities up where they should be (from a clean bore). I am starting today an experiment to see just exactly what my HMR can take as far as not cleaning. It is very difficult for my OCD though to see the copper streaks at the muzzle and convince myself that I am not harming anything by not cleaning. We'll see...

Interesting you say velocities up.

My first round from a clean and lightly oiled bore was two inches below the usual poi. The second was one inch low. The third was maybe a half inch low. Then the group was back where I expected.

Somehow I expected the opposite but appears a clean bore results in lower velocities for the first few shots. Horizontal was dead on.
 
My present working theory: my 6.5CM doesn't like a perfectly clean bore. It seems to lose accuracy abut 50 rounds fired. Running a dry patch seems to restore accuracy . Doing so every 25-40 rounds seems keep it fairly accurate.

We'll see how well this working theory holds up over time.
 
Interesting you're trying to see how long you can go before cleanings. You aren't worried about carbon ring formation?
 
What about copper fouling for you guys? Do you scrub all the copper out too each time you clean? I follow Todd Hardnett's advice and only clean for carbon, not copper. Theory is that it helps tighten up little inconsistencies?
 
Interesting you're trying to see how long you can go before cleanings. You aren't worried about carbon ring formation?
pretty common in the precision world to go 3-500 rounds without doing any cleaning. that does for 6s, 6.5s, 7s, 30s.

typically i clean around match schedules. 2 day matches in particular.

what garandman does is not necessary and a waste
 
what garandman does is not necessary and a waste


It's a waste to run a dry patch down your bore when accuracy starts to Degrade?

Even when running that dry patch has been repeatedly shown to restore accuracy ?

Personally I'm kind of a fan of accuracy.


And I have like way more experience with my gun than you do.
 
My present working theory: my 6.5CM doesn't like a perfectly clean bore. It seems to lose accuracy abut 50 rounds fired. Running a dry patch seems to restore accuracy . Doing so every 25-40 rounds seems keep it fairly accurate.

We'll see how well this working theory holds up over time.

What action and barrel/ammo? Something is wrong if you're having to clean with a dry patch every 50 rounds to maintain accuracy. Is it a sporter barrel?
 
What action and barrel/ammo? Something is wrong if you're having to clean with a dry patch every 50 rounds to maintain accuracy. Is it a sporter barrel?
Rem 700 action / Bugholes barrel... heavy varmint profile , 0.900 at the muzzle.

Im shooting 100% suppressed. 41.5 gr H4350 @ 2745 fps. 140 Herger Hybrid Target . 0.40 - 0.65 " @ 100 y.

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@Jakeonthekob you may want to watch this video. I am not a big cleaner of copper and only clean the chamber of carbon every 400 ish rounds or after a dirty match. I'm friends with a top 5 PRS shooter and he cleans every 300 or so, so everyone will have a different method and way. However, the video may be a good resource to you. Hope it helps.

 
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Mine does also, I only half clean these days so it is always on, no need to foul the barrel and save on cleaning time which I hate to do.
 
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The rifle and components should be fine. I'm not sure why you are losing accuracy though. That shouldn't happen that quick if everything is set properly.


Understood. What do you think is the effect of shooting suppressed?



From at least a logical standpoint the back pressure of the can would dump extra carbon back into the barrel.
 
Understood. What do you think is the effect of shooting suppressed?



From at least a logical standpoint the back pressure of the can would dump extra carbon back into the barrel.

I'm not sure I use a break only. Maybe try extended shots without and see what happens.
 
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I'm not sure I use a break only. Maybe try extended shots without and see what happens.


Yes if I wasn't shooting suppressed I would expect a gun to go a couple 100 rounds.

I don't ever plan on shooting unsuppressed.

I need to keep testing my dry patch timing/routine to see if the logic holds.

It only takes about 3 minutes time
 
Yes if I wasn't shooting suppressed I would expect a gun to go a couple 100 rounds.

I don't ever plan on shooting unsuppressed.

I need to keep testing my dry patch timing/routine to see if the logic holds.

It only takes about 3 minutes time
it isnt a suppressor issue
 
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it isnt a suppressor issue


Says the guy who has exactly 0 experience with my rifle.

Uh - huh.

Almost all my shooting on every modern firearm I own is suppressed.

Adding a suppressor exponentially accelerates barrel fouling.
 
Says the guy who has exactly 0 experience with my rifle.

Uh - huh.
so everyone else who shoots a few hundred rounds with a can before is just special circumstances or dumb luck?

i'm not doubting that a dry patch every 50 rounds works best for you. and no one is saying it wouldnt work for everyone else too, but it's just unnecessary and i'd look well past this and say its entirely a shooter issue, especially knowing you and your post history.

maybe you should stick to shooting semi autos
 
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i'm not doubting that a dry patch every 50 rounds works best for you.

that is all I'm saying. I haven't made any assumptions or assertions about anyone else, their rifle, their cleaning regimen, their practice's or in any way claimed or told anyone else what to do.

You on the other hand fired an unsolicited shot at me saying what I'm doing is a waste.

Step off, pal.
 
I shoot suppressed 100% of the time with my Criterion barreled 6.5 Creedmoor and I don't see accuracy fall off for several hundred rounds. Same with my factory 308 M700, and my factory 30-06 M700. All shot suppressed 100% of the time. No accuracy issues or accelerated fouling in my barrels. I have noticed excessive fouling with certain powders in my suppressor though.
 
No worse than most other powders. RL16 is pretty bad, Superfromance was the worst by far that I've tried. AR Comp and Ramshot Hunter haven't been too bad. AA4350 was the cleanest so far.
 
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I have been shooting for 50 years and I can assure you that if you never clean out any copper fouling eventually that barrel will be ruined and so fouled it is very difficult to save it . If you using moly coated ( proper moly coated ) bullets then the cleaning out of copper is greatly reduced . Many people just shoot the gun for years without proper cleaning and at some point it starts to throw bullets all over and they think the barrel is worn and sell the gun but in fact it's probably just hopelessly fouled . Soem very smooth match grade barrels need far less cleaning but some ordinary rough grade barrels will need more often cleaning . You can't just go by what some competiton shooter does . I predict a lot of ruined barrels over time in this thread . Remember they want you to ruin your barrel so you have to spend more money .
 
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I have been shooting for 50 years and I can assure you that if you never clean out any copper fouling eventually that barrel will be ruined and so fouled it is very difficult to save it . If you using moly coated ( proper moly coated ) bullets then the cleaning out of copper is greatly reduced . Many people just shoot the gun for years without proper cleaning and at some point it starts to throw bullets all over and they think the barrel is worn and sell the gun but in fact it's probably just hopelessly fouled . Soem very smooth match grade barrels need far less cleaning but some ordinary rough grade barrels will need more often cleaning . You can't just go by what some coptetion shooter does . I predict a lot of ruined barrels over time in this thread

I would like to see if anyone has done a study on straight carbon cleaning vs copper cleaning and when accuracy drops off. Can you state your experience regarding cleaning and roughly how many rounds have acceptable accuracy before copper cleaning is required? It would be interesting to know.
 
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When accuracy drops off is so variable from one barrel to another , one type to another , one grade to another , type of bullets used , coatings used , but here is what I found in my guns over 50 years is that enough experience for you ? In most of my barrels using uncoated jacketed bullets I could see accuracy started to go off at around 30 shots , acceptable accuracy for short range hunting would be around 50-100 shots but it's a subjective thing some are happy if the gun shoots 4 inch groups , this is a broad average over several guns . I never use monolithic bullets . If I use pure Moly coated bullets from my own process I can shoot 250 to 300 shots in my 223 before I see accuracy wondering from one test I did . Usually I would never fire that many in one go and I always clean and grease the barrel after use if storing for a while . Actually cleaned my 223 this morning just to check the barrel after three years of no use and it is perfect , grease was dry in the bore but the metal surface was sealed well . No adverse effect from the moly that I could detect because it has been lightly cleaned to remove excess surface moly that can harbor residues ( most important in a CM barrel ) and properly lubricated before putting away in a safe that has silical gel moisture traps . Carbon and copper lay down as layers in the bore of the barrel and inter bond so if you are nor cleaning both you are not cleaning period . Go to a BR range and you will see them cleaning fairly often using uncoated bullets because they can see the accuracy going after a few groups .
 
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Says the guy who has exactly 0 experience with my rifle.

Uh - huh.

Almost all my shooting on every modern firearm I own is suppressed.

Adding a suppressor exponentially accelerates barrel fouling.

Lol tell that to my axmc 6.5 cm barrel with not a single patch through it in 800 supressed rounds through it...I might just never clean it

@300 yards

20190527_154842.jpg


20190527_154844.jpg
 
Thanks for your input Country. Of course all barrels and guns, types of rounds add more variables to the mix. Maybe I'll ask Bartlein/Kreiger what their take is on that so we can see an overview of this whole subject.
 
Remember Bartlien and Kreiger sell barrels for a living they want your barrel to wear out as quick as possible .
 
Remember Bartlien and Kreiger sell barrels for a living they want your barrel to wear out as quick as possible .
so clean it more lol

when your barrel doesnt make that tiny group anymore then clean. dont overthink this
 
I only clean for carbon on my high end barrels.
Factory barrels like Rem or Howa I copper clean every 1000 rounds or so.
I’ve never copper cleaned on any of my Bartlein, Kreiger barrels etc.
 
When accuracy drops off is so variable from one barrel to another , one type to another , one grade to another , type of bullets used , coatings used ...

Ppl here dont believe that.

They think their experience With their barrel is universal to all shooters.
 
Ppl here dont believe that.

They think their experience With their barrel is universal to all shooters.
Yes that's a big problem . The guy who owns the super smooth match grade barrel shooting almost solid brass bullets don't need to clean much but the price is his barrel wil be worn out in short order .