My gun seems to group two shots on top of each other then move .75" and group two more. First shot on bottom and second on top every time. I know this is a function of my load not being tuned properly. Is there any common way that this is corrected i.e. shortening or lenghtenin OAL or increasing or decreasing powder charge. Has anyone had experience with this and if so, what was the cure? Just looking for a place to start.
double grouping
- Thread starter jsthntn247
- Start date
Re: double grouping
If its a vertical difference I'd imagine its probably the shooter. I say that having done almost the same thing today testing one of my own loads and I'm quite convinced the reason I wound up with two groups measuring in the .6's instead of one group in the .3s or .4s is because I changed something.
Either I let two shots out at a different point in my breathing cycle, or I shifted my hips, or the gun walked a bit and I didn't maintain the same load pressure on the bipod. Any number of things. I think it was me, not the ammo or the gun.
Unless you had a pretty significant velocity difference between the two groups of shots that might account for a very noticeable change in elevation...it was probably you. Try a sled?
If its a vertical difference I'd imagine its probably the shooter. I say that having done almost the same thing today testing one of my own loads and I'm quite convinced the reason I wound up with two groups measuring in the .6's instead of one group in the .3s or .4s is because I changed something.
Either I let two shots out at a different point in my breathing cycle, or I shifted my hips, or the gun walked a bit and I didn't maintain the same load pressure on the bipod. Any number of things. I think it was me, not the ammo or the gun.
Unless you had a pretty significant velocity difference between the two groups of shots that might account for a very noticeable change in elevation...it was probably you. Try a sled?
Re: double grouping
It reads like this is a constant problem with this particular rifle right down to the impact point for each bullet in a string fired....so by your theory the OP is consistantly fucking up his shooting style in the exact same manner for every group he fires.
Not impossible, but not likely either, as he'd have to be very good at being bad....a cold bore string or two would rule one way or the other.
Let's hear the OP tell more about what he's doing. What's the rifle we're talking about? Caliber? Is this from the bench and how; or is it from prone with 'pods and a bag/fist, etc? If it's with a rear bag is the rear sling stud free and clear for every shot? If the front is supported by a rest, is the front sling stud free and clear? Is there free recoil involved here, or is it controled? How's the trigger on that rifle? Barrel floated properly? Etc?
Lot's of things to look at, but my initial reaction is barrel heat if the dude knows what he's doing behind the trigger.......
It reads like this is a constant problem with this particular rifle right down to the impact point for each bullet in a string fired....so by your theory the OP is consistantly fucking up his shooting style in the exact same manner for every group he fires.
Not impossible, but not likely either, as he'd have to be very good at being bad....a cold bore string or two would rule one way or the other.
Let's hear the OP tell more about what he's doing. What's the rifle we're talking about? Caliber? Is this from the bench and how; or is it from prone with 'pods and a bag/fist, etc? If it's with a rear bag is the rear sling stud free and clear for every shot? If the front is supported by a rest, is the front sling stud free and clear? Is there free recoil involved here, or is it controled? How's the trigger on that rifle? Barrel floated properly? Etc?
Lot's of things to look at, but my initial reaction is barrel heat if the dude knows what he's doing behind the trigger.......
Re: double grouping
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It reads like this is a constant problem with this particular rifle right down to the impact point for each bullet in a string fired....so by your theory the OP is consistantly fucking up his shooting style in the exact same manner for every group he fires.
Not impossible, but not likely either, as he'd have to be very good at being bad....a cold bore string or two would rule one way or the other.
Let's hear the OP tell more about what he's doing. What's the rifle we're talking about? Caliber? Is this from the bench and how; or is it from prone with 'pods and a bag/fist, etc? If it's with a rear bag is the rear sling stud free and clear for every shot? If the front is supported by a rest, is the front sling stud free and clear? Is there free recoil involved here, or is it controled? How's the trigger on that rifle? Barrel floated properly? Etc?
Lot's of things to look at, but my initial reaction is barrel heat if the dude knows what he's doing behind the trigger.......
</div></div>
Im using a bulls bag for the front rest and a leather bag for the rear. The way the bench is set up, to get comfrotable, I have to set up in a way that my front stud is close to the front bag, I tried to check for clearance before each shot however. The gun is custom built 7 mag with muzzle brake, barrel floated, bedded, 2 pound trigger, the whole nine. I tried several different powder/bullet combo's that day and the 150gr B-tips with Re-22 are the only ones that gave me this problem. This was the last load I worked up that day with 110 degree heat index and 90% humidity. I cleaned the gun between each round, fired two foulers, and let the barrel cool 10 minutes between rounds and 2 minutes between shots, but it was a hot SOB. I think tripwire might be on to something with the heat idea. It's not supposed to be nearly as hot today, I have some more loaded up and am going to try them first and see what happens. I'll report back.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It reads like this is a constant problem with this particular rifle right down to the impact point for each bullet in a string fired....so by your theory the OP is consistantly fucking up his shooting style in the exact same manner for every group he fires.
Not impossible, but not likely either, as he'd have to be very good at being bad....a cold bore string or two would rule one way or the other.
Let's hear the OP tell more about what he's doing. What's the rifle we're talking about? Caliber? Is this from the bench and how; or is it from prone with 'pods and a bag/fist, etc? If it's with a rear bag is the rear sling stud free and clear for every shot? If the front is supported by a rest, is the front sling stud free and clear? Is there free recoil involved here, or is it controled? How's the trigger on that rifle? Barrel floated properly? Etc?
Lot's of things to look at, but my initial reaction is barrel heat if the dude knows what he's doing behind the trigger.......
</div></div>
Im using a bulls bag for the front rest and a leather bag for the rear. The way the bench is set up, to get comfrotable, I have to set up in a way that my front stud is close to the front bag, I tried to check for clearance before each shot however. The gun is custom built 7 mag with muzzle brake, barrel floated, bedded, 2 pound trigger, the whole nine. I tried several different powder/bullet combo's that day and the 150gr B-tips with Re-22 are the only ones that gave me this problem. This was the last load I worked up that day with 110 degree heat index and 90% humidity. I cleaned the gun between each round, fired two foulers, and let the barrel cool 10 minutes between rounds and 2 minutes between shots, but it was a hot SOB. I think tripwire might be on to something with the heat idea. It's not supposed to be nearly as hot today, I have some more loaded up and am going to try them first and see what happens. I'll report back.
Re: double grouping
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It reads like this is a constant problem with this particular rifle right down to the impact point for each bullet in a string fired....so by your theory the OP is consistantly fucking up his shooting style in the exact same manner for every group he fires.</div></div>
Its easy to goof something on a regular basis. I doubt a quarter of the shooters out there are as proficient as they like to believe they are.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Not impossible, but not likely either, as he'd have to be very good at being bad....a cold bore string or two would rule one way or the other.</div></div>
You assume its more consistent that it reads to me. He says he gets two shots on top of each other, then the next two move a bit. The gun isn't going to pick every third round to kick up three quarters of an inch.
OP should verify all his stuff is tight, base screws are tight, scope rings are tight. For his ammo to be shooting three quarters of an inch higher or lower shot to shot at only 100yds you are looking at velocity differences of more than 100fps...which is huge. So his SD and ES numbers are either WAY off, which I sort of doubt because consistency in reloading isn't that hard to achieve.
By comparison, consistency in your shooting IS tricky to achieve.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Let's hear the OP tell more about what he's doing. What's the rifle we're talking about? Caliber? Is this from the bench and how; or is it from prone with 'pods and a bag/fist, etc? If it's with a rear bag is the rear sling stud free and clear for every shot? If the front is supported by a rest, is the front sling stud free and clear? Is there free recoil involved here, or is it controled? How's the trigger on that rifle? Barrel floated properly? Etc? </div></div>
More info is always good. From looking at his post below I suspect the bag rests front and rear are part of it. I find shooting off bags to be less consistent than say off a bipod you can load. Power to him if he does it well, I'm not good and driving through recoil off bags, the gun wants to jump around more because the front isn't anchored by the static friction of the bipod. So if thats your thing and you do it well, good shooting.
He wasn't stringing fire together so even if barrel heat was an issue, which it isn't, that wouldn't be the case here. I wonder if pulling and verifying charge weight on his load wouldn't reveal a goofed powder charge? I've done that too. Fired a bunch, got crummy groups and chrono numbers, then realized my silly ass added two tenths of a grain to the load pushing it out of the accuracy node.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Lot's of things to look at, but my initial reaction is barrel heat if the dude knows what he's doing behind the trigger.......
</div></div>
Barrel heat doesn't affect POI unless the barrel is so far out of spec it should be replaced. I honestly doubt that's his problem. I suspect he's changing something midway through his shot string that accounts for the POI shift. A good example is lifting your head from the stock. Lots of people do that, but picking your head up mid string can introduce just enough difference in your eyeball to scope alignment to shift your POI slightly.
Not saying thats what he's doing, and no disrespect to the OP, I goof stuff all the time too. I just don't think its your gun. If you really want to check it, have somebody that you know can shoot well, not necessarily a buddy thats convenient, shoot it and see what that person can do with it.
For your viewing pleasure...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UZ-mApuUoM
OP...try putting the gun in a sled. Borrow or rent one for the test and take the human factor out of the equation. Mark where the feet rest on the table so you can return it if it hops a bit during recoil. If it still does it you know you have a velocity issue with the load or maybe the barrel is out of spec.
Rich
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It reads like this is a constant problem with this particular rifle right down to the impact point for each bullet in a string fired....so by your theory the OP is consistantly fucking up his shooting style in the exact same manner for every group he fires.</div></div>
Its easy to goof something on a regular basis. I doubt a quarter of the shooters out there are as proficient as they like to believe they are.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Not impossible, but not likely either, as he'd have to be very good at being bad....a cold bore string or two would rule one way or the other.</div></div>
You assume its more consistent that it reads to me. He says he gets two shots on top of each other, then the next two move a bit. The gun isn't going to pick every third round to kick up three quarters of an inch.
OP should verify all his stuff is tight, base screws are tight, scope rings are tight. For his ammo to be shooting three quarters of an inch higher or lower shot to shot at only 100yds you are looking at velocity differences of more than 100fps...which is huge. So his SD and ES numbers are either WAY off, which I sort of doubt because consistency in reloading isn't that hard to achieve.
By comparison, consistency in your shooting IS tricky to achieve.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Let's hear the OP tell more about what he's doing. What's the rifle we're talking about? Caliber? Is this from the bench and how; or is it from prone with 'pods and a bag/fist, etc? If it's with a rear bag is the rear sling stud free and clear for every shot? If the front is supported by a rest, is the front sling stud free and clear? Is there free recoil involved here, or is it controled? How's the trigger on that rifle? Barrel floated properly? Etc? </div></div>
More info is always good. From looking at his post below I suspect the bag rests front and rear are part of it. I find shooting off bags to be less consistent than say off a bipod you can load. Power to him if he does it well, I'm not good and driving through recoil off bags, the gun wants to jump around more because the front isn't anchored by the static friction of the bipod. So if thats your thing and you do it well, good shooting.
He wasn't stringing fire together so even if barrel heat was an issue, which it isn't, that wouldn't be the case here. I wonder if pulling and verifying charge weight on his load wouldn't reveal a goofed powder charge? I've done that too. Fired a bunch, got crummy groups and chrono numbers, then realized my silly ass added two tenths of a grain to the load pushing it out of the accuracy node.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Lot's of things to look at, but my initial reaction is barrel heat if the dude knows what he's doing behind the trigger.......
</div></div>
Barrel heat doesn't affect POI unless the barrel is so far out of spec it should be replaced. I honestly doubt that's his problem. I suspect he's changing something midway through his shot string that accounts for the POI shift. A good example is lifting your head from the stock. Lots of people do that, but picking your head up mid string can introduce just enough difference in your eyeball to scope alignment to shift your POI slightly.
Not saying thats what he's doing, and no disrespect to the OP, I goof stuff all the time too. I just don't think its your gun. If you really want to check it, have somebody that you know can shoot well, not necessarily a buddy thats convenient, shoot it and see what that person can do with it.
For your viewing pleasure...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UZ-mApuUoM
OP...try putting the gun in a sled. Borrow or rent one for the test and take the human factor out of the equation. Mark where the feet rest on the table so you can return it if it hops a bit during recoil. If it still does it you know you have a velocity issue with the load or maybe the barrel is out of spec.
Rich
Re: double grouping
I had this happen once and even posted about it in this forum. I got the same general responses you are. I couldn't believe it was me that kept making the shots group in two different places. It turned out that the screws on my scope rail had loosened slightly after months of shooting. When I took my scope off to check them, one of them was loose enough to turn with me fingernail. I put them back in with red loctite and this fixed my problem of double grouping.
Don't know if this is your problem, but it might be something to check. Good Luck.
I had this happen once and even posted about it in this forum. I got the same general responses you are. I couldn't believe it was me that kept making the shots group in two different places. It turned out that the screws on my scope rail had loosened slightly after months of shooting. When I took my scope off to check them, one of them was loose enough to turn with me fingernail. I put them back in with red loctite and this fixed my problem of double grouping.
Don't know if this is your problem, but it might be something to check. Good Luck.
Re: double grouping
Just want to say thanks to everyone that posted about this. It turns out I was me after all. I watched a couple youtube video's posted by the hide on proper form. I worked on my form with my .223 for a while when I got to the range and was dinging a 8" plate every shot at 600. I was feeling good so I decided to shoot the same 7mag load at 300 yards, it measured .630". I don't think I was paying enough attention to the position of the sling studs and they were hitting the bag during recoil. If I could now figure out what the ladder test with the 162's meant, all would be well.
Just want to say thanks to everyone that posted about this. It turns out I was me after all. I watched a couple youtube video's posted by the hide on proper form. I worked on my form with my .223 for a while when I got to the range and was dinging a 8" plate every shot at 600. I was feeling good so I decided to shoot the same 7mag load at 300 yards, it measured .630". I don't think I was paying enough attention to the position of the sling studs and they were hitting the bag during recoil. If I could now figure out what the ladder test with the 162's meant, all would be well.
Re: double grouping
Cold bore. My .300 does the same thing. Just dope it up a bit on your first shot then resume firing as normal. Hope it works out for ya
Cold bore. My .300 does the same thing. Just dope it up a bit on your first shot then resume firing as normal. Hope it works out for ya
Re: double grouping
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jsthntn247</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just want to say thanks to everyone that posted about this. It turns out I was me after all. I watched a couple youtube video's posted by the hide on proper form. I worked on my form with my .223 for a while when I got to the range and was dinging a 8" plate every shot at 600. I was feeling good so I decided to shoot the same 7mag load at 300 yards, it measured .630". I don't think I was paying enough attention to the position of the sling studs and they were hitting the bag during recoil. If I could now figure out what the ladder test with the 162's meant, all would be well. </div></div>
I used to blame my gun, ammo, the wind, lunar cycle, whatever for hooked shots. Now my first go to cause is my own shooting, usually my issues are attributed to rust, not enough time on the range week to week. Shooting is a perishable skill.
I think you are well on your way to becoming a better shooter when you begin to acknowledge, accept, and identify your own shortcomings as the principle cause of less than satisfactory shooting instead of blaming your equipment.
Glad you got it worked out!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aimsmall55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cold bore. My .300 does the same thing. Just dope it up a bit on your first shot then resume firing as normal. Hope it works out for ya </div></div>
Watch the video I posted. Cold/Hot bore is a myth. Its the shooter that needs the warm up, not the barrel.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jsthntn247</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just want to say thanks to everyone that posted about this. It turns out I was me after all. I watched a couple youtube video's posted by the hide on proper form. I worked on my form with my .223 for a while when I got to the range and was dinging a 8" plate every shot at 600. I was feeling good so I decided to shoot the same 7mag load at 300 yards, it measured .630". I don't think I was paying enough attention to the position of the sling studs and they were hitting the bag during recoil. If I could now figure out what the ladder test with the 162's meant, all would be well. </div></div>
I used to blame my gun, ammo, the wind, lunar cycle, whatever for hooked shots. Now my first go to cause is my own shooting, usually my issues are attributed to rust, not enough time on the range week to week. Shooting is a perishable skill.
I think you are well on your way to becoming a better shooter when you begin to acknowledge, accept, and identify your own shortcomings as the principle cause of less than satisfactory shooting instead of blaming your equipment.
Glad you got it worked out!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aimsmall55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cold bore. My .300 does the same thing. Just dope it up a bit on your first shot then resume firing as normal. Hope it works out for ya </div></div>
Watch the video I posted. Cold/Hot bore is a myth. Its the shooter that needs the warm up, not the barrel.
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