Still in the process of choosing my first semi-auto... Looking in that $800-1500 range, not sure quite yet how much to spend. The question is about double-stack guns. Do I have any options in that price range? I'd like to hear what everyone thinks...
Sidearms & Scatterguns Double Stack 1911
- Thread starter shootnfarmer
- Start date
Re: Double Stack 1911
Para Ordnance was the first double stack 1911...and IMHO is the best feeling in your hand... all others feel square and blocky to me
Para Ordnance was the first double stack 1911...and IMHO is the best feeling in your hand... all others feel square and blocky to me
Re: Double Stack 1911
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: force_multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Para Ordnance was the first double stack 1911...and IMHO is the best feeling in your hand... all others feel square and blocky to me </div></div>
Beware of the new Para USA stuff. I just bought a new SX1640S Limited and it is a $1000 pos. The trigger pull out of the box was right at 12.5 lbs. The thin MIM ambi saftey broke when I was removing it to work on the trigger and just racking the slide several times has the pin falling out of the rear site. And last but not least the frame was ingraved with the words PARA USA PINEVILLE N.C. by a one eyed second grader with a electric pencil. I have sent them 3 different emails and received no answers after 3 weeks. All of the stuff can be taken care of easy enough but for the price I would think a little better quality would have been in the box.
I have been a big para fan and own 4 canada high capacity models so I did not even think twice to research the new stuff, I just called my dealer and said order one up. Research after the fact shows a lot of issues with them since they moved to the U.S.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: force_multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Para Ordnance was the first double stack 1911...and IMHO is the best feeling in your hand... all others feel square and blocky to me </div></div>
Beware of the new Para USA stuff. I just bought a new SX1640S Limited and it is a $1000 pos. The trigger pull out of the box was right at 12.5 lbs. The thin MIM ambi saftey broke when I was removing it to work on the trigger and just racking the slide several times has the pin falling out of the rear site. And last but not least the frame was ingraved with the words PARA USA PINEVILLE N.C. by a one eyed second grader with a electric pencil. I have sent them 3 different emails and received no answers after 3 weeks. All of the stuff can be taken care of easy enough but for the price I would think a little better quality would have been in the box.
I have been a big para fan and own 4 canada high capacity models so I did not even think twice to research the new stuff, I just called my dealer and said order one up. Research after the fact shows a lot of issues with them since they moved to the U.S.
Re: Double Stack 1911
you could look into a STI 2011 style they feel really good they seem small for a double stack gun
you could look into a STI 2011 style they feel really good they seem small for a double stack gun
Re: Double Stack 1911
The 2011 is a great gun !
go to STI web sight and check them out .
The 2011 is a great gun !
go to STI web sight and check them out .
Re: Double Stack 1911
If you like the STI, look up Dave Dawson. He is a gunsmith/manufacturer in TX and happened to design the STI pistol. He is STI's largest dealer and does some exquisite work on those guns. The gun is good out of the box but he makes it even better. One of his full customs will break your budget but you won't be disappointed.
If you like the STI, look up Dave Dawson. He is a gunsmith/manufacturer in TX and happened to design the STI pistol. He is STI's largest dealer and does some exquisite work on those guns. The gun is good out of the box but he makes it even better. One of his full customs will break your budget but you won't be disappointed.
Re: Double Stack 1911
Double-stack 1911s are great game guns but have been problem children for duty/carry use. If you want a duty/carry pistol and need the extra capacity, I suggest you consider an M&P45 or HK45 instead. If it's a fun gun, then the other posters are likely steering you in the right direction.
Hilton Yam posted on some of his experiments with double stack guns a while back on 10-8. Might be worth some searching there.
Double-stack 1911s are great game guns but have been problem children for duty/carry use. If you want a duty/carry pistol and need the extra capacity, I suggest you consider an M&P45 or HK45 instead. If it's a fun gun, then the other posters are likely steering you in the right direction.
Hilton Yam posted on some of his experiments with double stack guns a while back on 10-8. Might be worth some searching there.
Re: Double Stack 1911
As someone said above, double-stacks are fine for games but if your thinking about using it for serious use steer away.
As someone said above, double-stacks are fine for games but if your thinking about using it for serious use steer away.
Re: Double Stack 1911
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: secondstoryguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As someone said above, double-stacks are fine for games but if your thinking about using it for serious use steer away. </div></div>
????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JB Gleason</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you like the STI, look up Dave Dawson. He is a gunsmith/manufacturer in TX and happened to design the STI pistol. He is STI's largest dealer and does some exquisite work on those guns. The gun is good out of the box but he makes it even better. One of his full customs will break your budget but you won't be disappointed. </div></div>
Dawson worked at STI but he did not design the 2011.
Dawson doesn't build guns to my knowledge, but they will trick a factory gun out for you if you order from them.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: secondstoryguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As someone said above, double-stacks are fine for games but if your thinking about using it for serious use steer away. </div></div>
????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JB Gleason</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you like the STI, look up Dave Dawson. He is a gunsmith/manufacturer in TX and happened to design the STI pistol. He is STI's largest dealer and does some exquisite work on those guns. The gun is good out of the box but he makes it even better. One of his full customs will break your budget but you won't be disappointed. </div></div>
Dawson worked at STI but he did not design the 2011.
Dawson doesn't build guns to my knowledge, but they will trick a factory gun out for you if you order from them.
Re: Double Stack 1911
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: secondstoryguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As someone said above, double-stacks are fine for games but if your thinking about using it for serious use steer away.</div></div>
I need to know, why?
Glocks are double stack
Cz's
M & P's
Sig's
HK's
Beretta's
Is it only 2011's that you should steer away from,
I only have 100.000 rounds or so down the barrel in mine
I think I can trust my life with it.
I do trust my life with it!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: secondstoryguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As someone said above, double-stacks are fine for games but if your thinking about using it for serious use steer away.</div></div>
I need to know, why?
Glocks are double stack
Cz's
M & P's
Sig's
HK's
Beretta's
Is it only 2011's that you should steer away from,
I only have 100.000 rounds or so down the barrel in mine
I think I can trust my life with it.
I do trust my life with it!
Re: Double Stack 1911
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aubrey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Double-stack 1911s are great game guns but have been problem children for duty/carry use. </div></div>
Please enlighten me on your experience with the "problem children".
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aubrey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Double-stack 1911s are great game guns but have been problem children for duty/carry use. </div></div>
Please enlighten me on your experience with the "problem children".
Re: Double Stack 1911
What's wrong with carrying a STI or SV for duty. Mine runs 100% and yes I trust my life with it! Lets see hmm... single stack 3 mags +1 in chamber =25 rounds total. Hi-cap 1911 or 2011 in 40 S&W with two mags +1 = 35 rounds...you do the math. No matter who makes it or what you pay for there is a chance you could get a turd.
What's wrong with carrying a STI or SV for duty. Mine runs 100% and yes I trust my life with it! Lets see hmm... single stack 3 mags +1 in chamber =25 rounds total. Hi-cap 1911 or 2011 in 40 S&W with two mags +1 = 35 rounds...you do the math. No matter who makes it or what you pay for there is a chance you could get a turd.
Re: Double Stack 1911
I haven't been shooting USPSA very long but I've never seen a 2011 STI or SVI so much as hiccup once in my 5 or so matches... They run like sewing machines. I have a single stack STI .45 for both comp and carry. My next two guns will be STI double stacks; one for comp in limited and one as a CCW.
STI: Edge and either the Total eclipse or VIP, all in .40... probably from Brazos
I haven't been shooting USPSA very long but I've never seen a 2011 STI or SVI so much as hiccup once in my 5 or so matches... They run like sewing machines. I have a single stack STI .45 for both comp and carry. My next two guns will be STI double stacks; one for comp in limited and one as a CCW.
STI: Edge and either the Total eclipse or VIP, all in .40... probably from Brazos
Re: Double Stack 1911
Dawson was involved in the design of the pistol along with virgil, sandy and a couple of other guys. Regardless, he knows the pistol inside and out and is the go-to guy if you want to really make one run. When I said he was a "manufacturer" I didn't mean to imply of firearms. He modifies the STI. He manufactures a number of accessories (sights, mag wells, etc.).
Dawson was involved in the design of the pistol along with virgil, sandy and a couple of other guys. Regardless, he knows the pistol inside and out and is the go-to guy if you want to really make one run. When I said he was a "manufacturer" I didn't mean to imply of firearms. He modifies the STI. He manufactures a number of accessories (sights, mag wells, etc.).
Re: Double Stack 1911
STI has a couple of guns that are very good in your price range. Look at the Eagle, Tactical or the Edge depending on the configuration you are interested in.
Shooters Connection, Dawson Precision or Brazo's Custom are all great dealers to purchase from.
In my experience double stack 2011's are no more or less reliable than any other platform out there.
The accusation that game guns are unreliable is generally held by those who have zero experience with them or are just repeating internet myth from the tactical underground.
STI has a couple of guns that are very good in your price range. Look at the Eagle, Tactical or the Edge depending on the configuration you are interested in.
Shooters Connection, Dawson Precision or Brazo's Custom are all great dealers to purchase from.
In my experience double stack 2011's are no more or less reliable than any other platform out there.
The accusation that game guns are unreliable is generally held by those who have zero experience with them or are just repeating internet myth from the tactical underground.
Re: Double Stack 1911
I would be hard pressed to cal Para the best even if they were the first . I have about as nice a Para as you can get but I would trade it in a heartbeat for a STI or SV . I used to have a Hard Chromed STI Lexor and it is one of the few guns I regret selling . Of course at 2400 bucks versus the 900 I spent on my Para I own now and it is to be expected .
I would be hard pressed to cal Para the best even if they were the first . I have about as nice a Para as you can get but I would trade it in a heartbeat for a STI or SV . I used to have a Hard Chromed STI Lexor and it is one of the few guns I regret selling . Of course at 2400 bucks versus the 900 I spent on my Para I own now and it is to be expected .
Re: Double Stack 1911
Don't buy a para, they're not watching what they ship out these days.
STI is an excellent option, i've not had hands-on with any of their 2011's, but I know their regular 1911's are very nice so if it carries over to the others then you're golden.
Don't buy a para, they're not watching what they ship out these days.
STI is an excellent option, i've not had hands-on with any of their 2011's, but I know their regular 1911's are very nice so if it carries over to the others then you're golden.
Re: Double Stack 1911
STI makes the nicest factory guns money can buy. All of their 2011s and all of their 1911s besides the Spartan (which is also excellent) are 100% made in USA as well. The only way to get a nicer gun is to get a semi-custom or custom gun. The STI Eagle and Edge are basically the standard in the USPSA Limited division.
STI makes the nicest factory guns money can buy. All of their 2011s and all of their 1911s besides the Spartan (which is also excellent) are 100% made in USA as well. The only way to get a nicer gun is to get a semi-custom or custom gun. The STI Eagle and Edge are basically the standard in the USPSA Limited division.
Re: Double Stack 1911
STI... but I'm pretty sure someone already suggested it
.
STI... but I'm pretty sure someone already suggested it
Re: Double Stack 1911
STI or SVI is the way to go.
Replace the extractor ever 40-50,000 rounds and you should be fine.
STI or SVI is the way to go.
Replace the extractor ever 40-50,000 rounds and you should be fine.
Re: Double Stack 1911
I have an SVI, great gun, very comfortable to shoot (I have big hands), scary accurate.
HK45 is also a great gun, ergonomics are very similar to 1911 (by design) and it runs problem-free.
I've had a few Paras (including the LDA type), not good guns. The LDAs flat-out suck.
At $1,000, I would recommend HK or STI.
I have an SVI, great gun, very comfortable to shoot (I have big hands), scary accurate.
HK45 is also a great gun, ergonomics are very similar to 1911 (by design) and it runs problem-free.
I've had a few Paras (including the LDA type), not good guns. The LDAs flat-out suck.
At $1,000, I would recommend HK or STI.
Re: Double Stack 1911
I have a P14.45 LDA Ltd that I carried as my duty gun for several years. Never had a hiccup.
I have a P14.45 LDA Ltd that I carried as my duty gun for several years. Never had a hiccup.
Re: Double Stack 1911
How a gun does at IPSC or other comps isn't how it would do in the field(LE or Mil applications). I've been shooting IPSC/IDPA for many years. In IPSC the gun comes out of the truck in a case, into the holster, and the mags are loaded for the match. The match is usually shot in a relatively clean environment, possibly lubed between stages, and is not subject to any undue abuse. The mags are then emptied, cleaned, and put away.
This is a far cry from a the abuse and environment that a duty weapon is subject to. A duty weapon , whether LE or MIL, gets the shit knocked out of it on a daily basis. It's banged against door-frames, rained on, covered in dirt/grit in and out of the holster and is generally tossed about daily. The mags are left loaded 24/7 for months on end. During training mags get stepped on with regularity and guns get bounced off walls while out of holster.
I've had a few STIs and a Para that I trained with and carried for a while. They ran OK at first but I had a few issues as time went by(Light strikes and a FTFs). These were with department supplied training ammo(hunting shack) and some milsurp .45 ammo we used for training. All the other 1911s on site worked fine. One time freak incident? Maybe. But it was enough to jade my opinion on them. I've been tempted to try them again on several occasions but the Glocks I shoot now are working too well.
You could also look at the fact that of the units that have employed 1911s, non elected to utilize a double-stack. The FBI HRT ran one(Les Baer?) for a while but dropped it and went back to a single stack. There might be something to that.
I'm sure there are double stacks out there that work, or that could be made to work, but my experiences have been to the contrary.
How a gun does at IPSC or other comps isn't how it would do in the field(LE or Mil applications). I've been shooting IPSC/IDPA for many years. In IPSC the gun comes out of the truck in a case, into the holster, and the mags are loaded for the match. The match is usually shot in a relatively clean environment, possibly lubed between stages, and is not subject to any undue abuse. The mags are then emptied, cleaned, and put away.
This is a far cry from a the abuse and environment that a duty weapon is subject to. A duty weapon , whether LE or MIL, gets the shit knocked out of it on a daily basis. It's banged against door-frames, rained on, covered in dirt/grit in and out of the holster and is generally tossed about daily. The mags are left loaded 24/7 for months on end. During training mags get stepped on with regularity and guns get bounced off walls while out of holster.
I've had a few STIs and a Para that I trained with and carried for a while. They ran OK at first but I had a few issues as time went by(Light strikes and a FTFs). These were with department supplied training ammo(hunting shack) and some milsurp .45 ammo we used for training. All the other 1911s on site worked fine. One time freak incident? Maybe. But it was enough to jade my opinion on them. I've been tempted to try them again on several occasions but the Glocks I shoot now are working too well.
You could also look at the fact that of the units that have employed 1911s, non elected to utilize a double-stack. The FBI HRT ran one(Les Baer?) for a while but dropped it and went back to a single stack. There might be something to that.
I'm sure there are double stacks out there that work, or that could be made to work, but my experiences have been to the contrary.
Re: Double Stack 1911
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aubrey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Double-stack 1911s are great game guns but have been problem children for duty/carry use. </div></div>
Please enlighten me on your experience with the "problem children". </div></div>
smokshwn,
With due respect, I have no personal experience with double-stack 1911s, because I have steered away from them as advised by guys like Hilton Yam and Larry Vickers. I'm not here to start a flame war. The OP stated this would be his first auto and for all I know would be a carry gun. He also stated a modest budget for a 1911, which IME is a relatively expensive proposition for a reliable weapon.
If you have a double-stack 1911 pattern pistol that works for you, good deal. Drive on.
I am a mere earth person. I have no LEO or .mil experience. I have, however, taken several pistol courses in the past few years and have seen only two double-stack 1911s used in all of those classes.
Hilton posted this in a thread (subject "STI Duty One?") in 2009:
<span style="font-style: italic">My own research does not bear out the viability of the STI double stack platform as a duty weapon. The technology is not very new, as it came out 1992 and actually has not evolved much since then. I am certainly not resistant to new technology, nor am I unfamiliar with the platform. I ran a ParaOrdnance high capacity .38 Super optic racegun that was built in 1991 on their original frame kit (before they actually built whole guns). It was only the second or third such build coming out of Behlert's shop at the time, so it was pretty early in the development of the concept. I also ran the early hi-cap guns when they still said CMC on the side, as well as later when they were marked TRI.
Units issuing double stack 1911s have not had good results, and the inherent flaws of the system still apply to the individual user. The issues primarily revolve around the magazine, and include:
-Inconsistent tube dimensions and quality. Some magazines just flat out fail to function, right out of the box. Not only is it impossible to issue out sets of mags to the end users, but individual users have to spend time tuning and vetting each magazine.
-Magazines are not as tolerant of dirt and wear as single stack mags due to difficulties necking a double column into a single column for feed. Look at the magazine - even when in spec, the shoulder area is quite a log jam for the rounds. Minor tube imperfections will slow the round stack down enough to cause malfunctions.
-Springs can stack and set inconsistently, such that it is possible for several mags to each have a different maximum round count.
-Followers are soft and do not last very long when used for slide lock reloads.
The above issues are the first ones to come to mind. Consider if your gun works great because 1) Dawson tunes all the mags as part of the package, 2) a competition gun's mags can be left unloaded, and 3) slide lock reloads are uncommon in USPSA competition.
The 2 piece frames tend to perform poorly in drop tests, which is problematic whether you are one user or ten or twenty.
The high capacity 1911 platforms ADD significantly to the 1911's already intensive maintenance issues as a service weapon. I am pretty familiar with the headaches of chasing these issues, and certainly do not volunteer for more.</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aubrey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Double-stack 1911s are great game guns but have been problem children for duty/carry use. </div></div>
Please enlighten me on your experience with the "problem children". </div></div>
smokshwn,
With due respect, I have no personal experience with double-stack 1911s, because I have steered away from them as advised by guys like Hilton Yam and Larry Vickers. I'm not here to start a flame war. The OP stated this would be his first auto and for all I know would be a carry gun. He also stated a modest budget for a 1911, which IME is a relatively expensive proposition for a reliable weapon.
If you have a double-stack 1911 pattern pistol that works for you, good deal. Drive on.
I am a mere earth person. I have no LEO or .mil experience. I have, however, taken several pistol courses in the past few years and have seen only two double-stack 1911s used in all of those classes.
Hilton posted this in a thread (subject "STI Duty One?") in 2009:
<span style="font-style: italic">My own research does not bear out the viability of the STI double stack platform as a duty weapon. The technology is not very new, as it came out 1992 and actually has not evolved much since then. I am certainly not resistant to new technology, nor am I unfamiliar with the platform. I ran a ParaOrdnance high capacity .38 Super optic racegun that was built in 1991 on their original frame kit (before they actually built whole guns). It was only the second or third such build coming out of Behlert's shop at the time, so it was pretty early in the development of the concept. I also ran the early hi-cap guns when they still said CMC on the side, as well as later when they were marked TRI.
Units issuing double stack 1911s have not had good results, and the inherent flaws of the system still apply to the individual user. The issues primarily revolve around the magazine, and include:
-Inconsistent tube dimensions and quality. Some magazines just flat out fail to function, right out of the box. Not only is it impossible to issue out sets of mags to the end users, but individual users have to spend time tuning and vetting each magazine.
-Magazines are not as tolerant of dirt and wear as single stack mags due to difficulties necking a double column into a single column for feed. Look at the magazine - even when in spec, the shoulder area is quite a log jam for the rounds. Minor tube imperfections will slow the round stack down enough to cause malfunctions.
-Springs can stack and set inconsistently, such that it is possible for several mags to each have a different maximum round count.
-Followers are soft and do not last very long when used for slide lock reloads.
The above issues are the first ones to come to mind. Consider if your gun works great because 1) Dawson tunes all the mags as part of the package, 2) a competition gun's mags can be left unloaded, and 3) slide lock reloads are uncommon in USPSA competition.
The 2 piece frames tend to perform poorly in drop tests, which is problematic whether you are one user or ten or twenty.
The high capacity 1911 platforms ADD significantly to the 1911's already intensive maintenance issues as a service weapon. I am pretty familiar with the headaches of chasing these issues, and certainly do not volunteer for more.</span>
Re: Double Stack 1911
Could we all agree on the following: "Shoot and carry what works for you." What works for me may not work for someone else. Also a gun is a machine and at some point in time all machines break down.
Could we all agree on the following: "Shoot and carry what works for you." What works for me may not work for someone else. Also a gun is a machine and at some point in time all machines break down.
Re: Double Stack 1911
toygunner,
No argument from me. You are the professional. Added magazine capacity is certainly something the 1911 would benefit from for many. Please advise what magazines you have found reliable in your pistols. Thanks.
toygunner,
No argument from me. You are the professional. Added magazine capacity is certainly something the 1911 would benefit from for many. Please advise what magazines you have found reliable in your pistols. Thanks.
Re: Double Stack 1911
Just another .45.
USAMU-tuned STI mags with Grams springs and followers. Robar NP3-plated mag tubes.
Just another .45.
USAMU-tuned STI mags with Grams springs and followers. Robar NP3-plated mag tubes.
Re: Double Stack 1911
I use SVI mags in my SV 40. A 126mm in the gun (for flush fit) and a spare 140mm on the belt. 16+1 in the gun and I only put 18 in the 140 to give the spring a little room. Similar to only loading 28 in an AR mag.
My duty gun started out as an IPSC gun that I eventually cut a light rail into the dust cover. It's had documented 55,000 major power factor loads shot in it. Close to 50% was lead the rest jacketed. Yes I have replaced parts like the sear spring, recoil & firing pin spring and one set hammer/sear (when I changed it over to a carry gun, trigger was 2 lb'ish now its 3.5 lb).
The pistol has a combat bomar rear and a Dawson fiber optic front sight. I'm not a believer in night sights unless you are looking to shoot a good score on a night qual. Once the rail mounted light comes on it washes out the night sights anyway.
I think someone earlier stated that IPSC guns dont get abuse and dirty. That is not the case for a handgun used in 3 gun comp. Just ask anyone who just shot the CMMG 3 gun in the rain, and mud. My custom STI 9mm worked flawless, better than I did.
I use SVI mags in my SV 40. A 126mm in the gun (for flush fit) and a spare 140mm on the belt. 16+1 in the gun and I only put 18 in the 140 to give the spring a little room. Similar to only loading 28 in an AR mag.
My duty gun started out as an IPSC gun that I eventually cut a light rail into the dust cover. It's had documented 55,000 major power factor loads shot in it. Close to 50% was lead the rest jacketed. Yes I have replaced parts like the sear spring, recoil & firing pin spring and one set hammer/sear (when I changed it over to a carry gun, trigger was 2 lb'ish now its 3.5 lb).
The pistol has a combat bomar rear and a Dawson fiber optic front sight. I'm not a believer in night sights unless you are looking to shoot a good score on a night qual. Once the rail mounted light comes on it washes out the night sights anyway.
I think someone earlier stated that IPSC guns dont get abuse and dirty. That is not the case for a handgun used in 3 gun comp. Just ask anyone who just shot the CMMG 3 gun in the rain, and mud. My custom STI 9mm worked flawless, better than I did.
Re: Double Stack 1911
if you plan on carrying the gun, i wouldn't go double stack for two reasons:
1) the heel of the gun is the hardest to conceal and it will be twice as big as a single stack
2) a steel frame 1911 is a pig to begin with. the extra ammo would add +/- 4 oz plus whatever extra weight is added by the frame/magazine
or maybe i'm just lazy. i dunno.
if you plan on carrying the gun, i wouldn't go double stack for two reasons:
1) the heel of the gun is the hardest to conceal and it will be twice as big as a single stack
2) a steel frame 1911 is a pig to begin with. the extra ammo would add +/- 4 oz plus whatever extra weight is added by the frame/magazine
or maybe i'm just lazy. i dunno.
Re: Double Stack 1911
Here is a pic of my SV 40 duty gun. The pistol is about 13 years old.
Here is a pic of my SV 40 duty gun. The pistol is about 13 years old.
Re: Double Stack 1911
I built a 2011 for myself this year. Wish i would have done it sooner. I have a 1911 too and it hasn't been shot since...
I built a 2011 for myself this year. Wish i would have done it sooner. I have a 1911 too and it hasn't been shot since...
Re: Double Stack 1911
I had a pair of Dan Wesson Pointmans that were double stack. I sold them and haven't heard of any others. Serial numbers were less than 100.....oh well
I had a pair of Dan Wesson Pointmans that were double stack. I sold them and haven't heard of any others. Serial numbers were less than 100.....oh well
Re: Double Stack 1911
Anybody do a double stack build on a Caspian frame? Think they have some in 10mm, but I have no experience with the round much less the frame.
I don't have any MIL or LEO experience but from what I have learned about building 1911s is that you shouldn't use a compitition gun for duty carry. The tight tolerances get mucked up with grime and dirt to fast, and the possibility of FTF is more likely.
If your wondering where I learned it from try reading "The U.S. M1911/M1911A1 Pistols" by Jerry Kuhnhausen. Complicated stuff for sure.
Anybody do a double stack build on a Caspian frame? Think they have some in 10mm, but I have no experience with the round much less the frame.
I don't have any MIL or LEO experience but from what I have learned about building 1911s is that you shouldn't use a compitition gun for duty carry. The tight tolerances get mucked up with grime and dirt to fast, and the possibility of FTF is more likely.
If your wondering where I learned it from try reading "The U.S. M1911/M1911A1 Pistols" by Jerry Kuhnhausen. Complicated stuff for sure.
Re: Double Stack 1911
I have 2 Kimber BP's. (Polymer/aluminum doublestack 1911)
I replaced the mag springs with wolff units for a para, they both run flawlessly,and I am a slob who doesn't like cleaning guns....
One is a 3.5" barreled carry internal extractor.....
the other a government size with external extractor...
both throw brass 10 + feet, despite all the negative bs you read on the internet.....
The shorty doesn't like hydrashocks too much but feeds all other hollowpoints I have fed it happily..... YMMV
I have 2 Kimber BP's. (Polymer/aluminum doublestack 1911)
I replaced the mag springs with wolff units for a para, they both run flawlessly,and I am a slob who doesn't like cleaning guns....
One is a 3.5" barreled carry internal extractor.....
the other a government size with external extractor...
both throw brass 10 + feet, despite all the negative bs you read on the internet.....
The shorty doesn't like hydrashocks too much but feeds all other hollowpoints I have fed it happily..... YMMV
Re: Double Stack 1911
I like me a Caspian Recon frame, its a double stack with the width of a single stack due to the recessed grips, its comfortable as heck
I like me a Caspian Recon frame, its a double stack with the width of a single stack due to the recessed grips, its comfortable as heck
Re: Double Stack 1911
Very nice....I've been looking at doing a Recon in 9mm for my race gun.
Very nice....I've been looking at doing a Recon in 9mm for my race gun.
Re: Double Stack 1911
Ok when the military first put the 1911 to test it was orginaly made to shoot hardball only. It did this so well that it out preformed all other auto-loading pistols. In the 6,000rnd test the 1911 was only out preformed by a M1909 revolver.
Granted it was was max specification for tolerance, and shooting 8"-10" groups at 50yrds. But you have a choice between a tight shooting race gun or reliable machine. Either one is fine just know what you are getting.
I wish I could pull the info on diffrent cal conversions but I can't find it right now.
Nice piece Punisher! Using slim grips came to mind also when I started learning. Definitely on my to do list.
Ok when the military first put the 1911 to test it was orginaly made to shoot hardball only. It did this so well that it out preformed all other auto-loading pistols. In the 6,000rnd test the 1911 was only out preformed by a M1909 revolver.
Granted it was was max specification for tolerance, and shooting 8"-10" groups at 50yrds. But you have a choice between a tight shooting race gun or reliable machine. Either one is fine just know what you are getting.
I wish I could pull the info on diffrent cal conversions but I can't find it right now.
Nice piece Punisher! Using slim grips came to mind also when I started learning. Definitely on my to do list.
Re: Double Stack 1911
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A 2011 is not any heavier than a 1911. The grip is plastic. My STI Eagle is actually lighter than a 1911.</div></div>
it might be lighter unloaded, but whatever weight is saved in construction is more than made up for with the weight of extra ammo.
i'm sure it would be a hoot, but i wouldn't want to wear it on my belt.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A 2011 is not any heavier than a 1911. The grip is plastic. My STI Eagle is actually lighter than a 1911.</div></div>
it might be lighter unloaded, but whatever weight is saved in construction is more than made up for with the weight of extra ammo.
i'm sure it would be a hoot, but i wouldn't want to wear it on my belt.
Re: Double Stack 1911
i prefer 1911's mostly but really been eying a 45 auto doublestack springfield xd-m. it feels real nice in me paws.
i prefer 1911's mostly but really been eying a 45 auto doublestack springfield xd-m. it feels real nice in me paws.
Re: Double Stack 1911
From my the guns I've owned and shot, I would say this. If you are wanting a 1911 double-stack, go STI. If you just want more than 8rds in .45, look at Glock 21. Behind the G17 it's probably the most used Glock ever with the track record to go with it. Springfield and S&W have fine offerings as well, but the M&P only holds 10rds I think.
From my the guns I've owned and shot, I would say this. If you are wanting a 1911 double-stack, go STI. If you just want more than 8rds in .45, look at Glock 21. Behind the G17 it's probably the most used Glock ever with the track record to go with it. Springfield and S&W have fine offerings as well, but the M&P only holds 10rds I think.
Re: Double Stack 1911
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slothlacrosse</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A 2011 is not any heavier than a 1911. The grip is plastic. My STI Eagle is actually lighter than a 1911.</div></div>
it might be lighter unloaded, but whatever weight is saved in construction is more than made up for with the weight of extra ammo.
i'm sure it would be a hoot, but i wouldn't want to wear it on my belt. </div></div>
Yeah, who wants all that extra ammo? It's unnecessary weight. Leave your spare mags at home, too.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slothlacrosse</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A 2011 is not any heavier than a 1911. The grip is plastic. My STI Eagle is actually lighter than a 1911.</div></div>
it might be lighter unloaded, but whatever weight is saved in construction is more than made up for with the weight of extra ammo.
i'm sure it would be a hoot, but i wouldn't want to wear it on my belt. </div></div>
Yeah, who wants all that extra ammo? It's unnecessary weight. Leave your spare mags at home, too.
Re: Double Stack 1911
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slothlacrosse</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A 2011 is not any heavier than a 1911. The grip is plastic. My STI Eagle is actually lighter than a 1911.</div></div>
it might be lighter unloaded, but whatever weight is saved in construction is more than made up for with the weight of extra ammo.
i'm sure it would be a hoot, but i wouldn't want to wear it on my belt. </div></div>
Seriously, lets do the math.
Apples to apples, .45 cal one mag in the gun two on the belt. So thats 24 rds for the singlestack and 42 rds for the STI/SVI with a grand difference of 18 rds. Forty five rounds weigh .7oz for a grand total of 12.6 oz of weight penalty due to ammo.
Comparing the STI Tactical vs the Duty One there is a 2.1 oz weight advantage in favor of the Tactical.
All told that is a 10.5 oz penalty to carry 18 more rounds of ammo.
Given that your propensity is to shy away from the extra effort that would entail I am pretty sure that your stature provides plenty of opportunity to shed 10.5 oz
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slothlacrosse</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A 2011 is not any heavier than a 1911. The grip is plastic. My STI Eagle is actually lighter than a 1911.</div></div>
it might be lighter unloaded, but whatever weight is saved in construction is more than made up for with the weight of extra ammo.
i'm sure it would be a hoot, but i wouldn't want to wear it on my belt. </div></div>
Seriously, lets do the math.
Apples to apples, .45 cal one mag in the gun two on the belt. So thats 24 rds for the singlestack and 42 rds for the STI/SVI with a grand difference of 18 rds. Forty five rounds weigh .7oz for a grand total of 12.6 oz of weight penalty due to ammo.
Comparing the STI Tactical vs the Duty One there is a 2.1 oz weight advantage in favor of the Tactical.
All told that is a 10.5 oz penalty to carry 18 more rounds of ammo.
Given that your propensity is to shy away from the extra effort that would entail I am pretty sure that your stature provides plenty of opportunity to shed 10.5 oz
Re: Double Stack 1911
In regards to the questions concerning reliability.
When these pistols were developed like many other firearm improvements, much of the focus and use was in a competition setting. The technology was new and the evolution of improvements and techniques for building them was rapidly advancing. Couple this with the crucible of competition where many of the setups were tuned to the ragged edge (think top fuel dragster not toyota camry). There was ample opportunity for less than anvil like reliability.
The same may still be said with respect to competition pistols, however, the knowledge base and manufacturing has advanced not only in improvements but also in volumes that allow incredibly consistent components.
Choosing the gun is important from the standpoint that you pick the tool for the purpose. Choosing one of the duty oriented models of doublestacks should be provide no concern with respect to using it for a working gun.
In regards to the questions concerning reliability.
When these pistols were developed like many other firearm improvements, much of the focus and use was in a competition setting. The technology was new and the evolution of improvements and techniques for building them was rapidly advancing. Couple this with the crucible of competition where many of the setups were tuned to the ragged edge (think top fuel dragster not toyota camry). There was ample opportunity for less than anvil like reliability.
The same may still be said with respect to competition pistols, however, the knowledge base and manufacturing has advanced not only in improvements but also in volumes that allow incredibly consistent components.
Choosing the gun is important from the standpoint that you pick the tool for the purpose. Choosing one of the duty oriented models of doublestacks should be provide no concern with respect to using it for a working gun.
Re: Double Stack 1911
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Seriously, lets do the math.
Apples to apples, .45 cal one mag in the gun two on the belt. So thats 24 rds for the singlestack and 42 rds for the STI/SVI with a grand difference of 18 rds. Forty five rounds weigh .7oz for a grand total of 12.6 oz of weight penalty due to ammo.
Comparing the STI Tactical vs the Duty One there is a 2.1 oz weight advantage in favor of the Tactical.
All told that is a 10.5 oz penalty to carry 18 more rounds of ammo.
Given that your propensity is to shy away from the extra effort that would entail I am pretty sure that your stature provides plenty of opportunity to shed 10.5 oz </div></div>
my arguement was and is about carry and conceal. read my first post on the topic.
the OP never specified what he wanted to do with the gun. if he's just going to shoot 3-gun and go to the range with it, go nuts and buy a double/triple/quadruple stack. if he wants to carry the gun on a daily basis, weight and size are big factors and should be considered.
and why the hell would i walk around with 42 rounds of any caliber on my belt? if you find yourself needing that many rounds, you don't need a double stack pistol; you need to move to a better neighborhood or radio for CAS.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Seriously, lets do the math.
Apples to apples, .45 cal one mag in the gun two on the belt. So thats 24 rds for the singlestack and 42 rds for the STI/SVI with a grand difference of 18 rds. Forty five rounds weigh .7oz for a grand total of 12.6 oz of weight penalty due to ammo.
Comparing the STI Tactical vs the Duty One there is a 2.1 oz weight advantage in favor of the Tactical.
All told that is a 10.5 oz penalty to carry 18 more rounds of ammo.
Given that your propensity is to shy away from the extra effort that would entail I am pretty sure that your stature provides plenty of opportunity to shed 10.5 oz
my arguement was and is about carry and conceal. read my first post on the topic.
the OP never specified what he wanted to do with the gun. if he's just going to shoot 3-gun and go to the range with it, go nuts and buy a double/triple/quadruple stack. if he wants to carry the gun on a daily basis, weight and size are big factors and should be considered.
and why the hell would i walk around with 42 rounds of any caliber on my belt? if you find yourself needing that many rounds, you don't need a double stack pistol; you need to move to a better neighborhood or radio for CAS.
Re: Double Stack 1911
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slothlacrosse</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Seriously, lets do the math.
Apples to apples, .45 cal one mag in the gun two on the belt. So thats 24 rds for the singlestack and 42 rds for the STI/SVI with a grand difference of 18 rds. Forty five rounds weigh .7oz for a grand total of 12.6 oz of weight penalty due to ammo.
Comparing the STI Tactical vs the Duty One there is a 2.1 oz weight advantage in favor of the Tactical.
All told that is a 10.5 oz penalty to carry 18 more rounds of ammo.
Given that your propensity is to shy away from the extra effort that would entail I am pretty sure that your stature provides plenty of opportunity to shed 10.5 oz </div></div>
my arguement was and is about carry and conceal. read my first post on the topic.
the OP never specified what he wanted to do with the gun. if he's just going to shoot 3-gun and go to the range with it, go nuts and buy a double/triple/quadruple stack. if he wants to carry the gun on a daily basis, weight and size are big factors and should be considered.
and why the hell would i walk around with 42 rounds of any caliber on my belt? if you find yourself needing that many rounds, you don't need a double stack pistol; you need to move to a better neighborhood or radio for CAS. </div></div>
So with one mag in the gun and one reload (can we agree that you should have a reload for any gun you're carrying as a working gun?) your weight argument is even weaker as the difference is only 6.5 oz.
I agree, carry whatever the hell you want, but to make an point between two full size guns of exactly the same footprint that the ammo is too heavy is simply stupid. There are tons of reasons to carry one thing over the other, I have to congratulate you as being the first person to ever identify "heavy ammo" as a factor for concealed carry decision making.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slothlacrosse</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Seriously, lets do the math.
Apples to apples, .45 cal one mag in the gun two on the belt. So thats 24 rds for the singlestack and 42 rds for the STI/SVI with a grand difference of 18 rds. Forty five rounds weigh .7oz for a grand total of 12.6 oz of weight penalty due to ammo.
Comparing the STI Tactical vs the Duty One there is a 2.1 oz weight advantage in favor of the Tactical.
All told that is a 10.5 oz penalty to carry 18 more rounds of ammo.
Given that your propensity is to shy away from the extra effort that would entail I am pretty sure that your stature provides plenty of opportunity to shed 10.5 oz
my arguement was and is about carry and conceal. read my first post on the topic.
the OP never specified what he wanted to do with the gun. if he's just going to shoot 3-gun and go to the range with it, go nuts and buy a double/triple/quadruple stack. if he wants to carry the gun on a daily basis, weight and size are big factors and should be considered.
and why the hell would i walk around with 42 rounds of any caliber on my belt? if you find yourself needing that many rounds, you don't need a double stack pistol; you need to move to a better neighborhood or radio for CAS. </div></div>
So with one mag in the gun and one reload (can we agree that you should have a reload for any gun you're carrying as a working gun?) your weight argument is even weaker as the difference is only 6.5 oz.
I agree, carry whatever the hell you want, but to make an point between two full size guns of exactly the same footprint that the ammo is too heavy is simply stupid. There are tons of reasons to carry one thing over the other, I have to congratulate you as being the first person to ever identify "heavy ammo" as a factor for concealed carry decision making.
Re: Double Stack 1911
how can a pistol that holds twice as many rounds have the same footprint as a single stack pistol? i've shot ParaOrd and Caspian-based double stack pistols and they are definitely thicker; maybe not by much but it is noticably thicker.
a single stack 1911 lies beautifully flat against one's side. the magazine, just like the pistol, lies flat and doesn't print.
you say 6.5 oz like it's nothing. that's like carrying another blackberry or a roll of quarters. where do you put it all? at what point does being prepared become a burden?
you're already carrying a pistol with 42 rounds. why not wear a slick plate carrier or atleast level 3 soft armor just to be safe? it's only few lbs and it would give you a huge advantage. you're probably an average guy and most guys are carrying some extra weight around their torso so nobody would even notice.
a lot of guys carry man-purses; you could probably fit an SBR in one of you seperated the upper and lower. you'd definitely have the upperhand if SHTF.
am i starting to sound really stupid? yes. but how much more are you going to incrementally take with you to gain an advantage that may only be perceived and not applicable?
if someone pulls a gun on me and asks for my wallet. you know what he's going to get? my wallet.
why? because if i go for my gun he's probably going to kill me and get pissed off and probably kill the next person he sees.
if someone pulls out a gun and starts gunning down people in the mall, i'm taking cover and engaging.
i don't stay up at night and languish over what will happen if some madman attacks a populated area, and i pray to God that random acts of violence never happen to me or anyone.
but if it were to happen, it wouldn't be a long, drawn out hollywood gunfight. it'll probably be a controlled pair from a relatively short distance that stops any attack on a mall/church/school/etc.
95% of gunfights take place < 21 ft and 3-4 shots are usually fired.
my points are:
1) 6.5 oz is not some negligible amount of weight
2) there is no freaking way that a double stack gun has the same footprint as a single stack gun
3) violence is the last resort
how can a pistol that holds twice as many rounds have the same footprint as a single stack pistol? i've shot ParaOrd and Caspian-based double stack pistols and they are definitely thicker; maybe not by much but it is noticably thicker.
a single stack 1911 lies beautifully flat against one's side. the magazine, just like the pistol, lies flat and doesn't print.
you say 6.5 oz like it's nothing. that's like carrying another blackberry or a roll of quarters. where do you put it all? at what point does being prepared become a burden?
you're already carrying a pistol with 42 rounds. why not wear a slick plate carrier or atleast level 3 soft armor just to be safe? it's only few lbs and it would give you a huge advantage. you're probably an average guy and most guys are carrying some extra weight around their torso so nobody would even notice.
a lot of guys carry man-purses; you could probably fit an SBR in one of you seperated the upper and lower. you'd definitely have the upperhand if SHTF.
am i starting to sound really stupid? yes. but how much more are you going to incrementally take with you to gain an advantage that may only be perceived and not applicable?
if someone pulls a gun on me and asks for my wallet. you know what he's going to get? my wallet.
why? because if i go for my gun he's probably going to kill me and get pissed off and probably kill the next person he sees.
if someone pulls out a gun and starts gunning down people in the mall, i'm taking cover and engaging.
i don't stay up at night and languish over what will happen if some madman attacks a populated area, and i pray to God that random acts of violence never happen to me or anyone.
but if it were to happen, it wouldn't be a long, drawn out hollywood gunfight. it'll probably be a controlled pair from a relatively short distance that stops any attack on a mall/church/school/etc.
95% of gunfights take place < 21 ft and 3-4 shots are usually fired.
my points are:
1) 6.5 oz is not some negligible amount of weight
2) there is no freaking way that a double stack gun has the same footprint as a single stack gun
3) violence is the last resort
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