• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

Driving gas guns

rybe390

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 13, 2017
303
331
Hey hide folks.

I want to talk about driving gas guns properly, and any insight you may have.

I have a newish upper on a DMR build, and it is certainly more accurate than I am, and it's exposing that my fundamentals aren't as tight as I thought.

If I focus, go slow, and apply proper fundamentals, I end up with a group that is nearing 1/2 MOA. If I slack off, I will open up to nearly 1.5 MOA.

In contrast, I can't shoot my cz455 worse than 3/4 MOA if I tried. That is what's making me think I am slacking on fundamentals for consistent gas gun accuracy.

Things I have noticed:
Grip position and straight back trigger pull. You really have to focus on hand placement with the ar grip.
Bipod loading.
How much to pull grip back into shoulder
Reticle "jump" if trigger pull wasn't perfect on a dry fire.

Folks who shoot gassers as precision rifles, what is your checklist to make sure you are nice and squared away on a gasser, that you may not have to think so hard about on a bolt gun?

Thanks in advance for the discussion.
 
i try to follow through on each shot, holding the trigger through all 3 stages of recoil (vs 1 stage in a bolt gun) before allowing reset.
if nothing else, this slows me down and stops me from stabbing at the trigger.

what sort of trigger are you using?
the 2 stage geissele on mine makes the trigger part easier, but you still have to do everything else right.
 
Last edited:
I use the same mental checklist with my gas guns as I do on my bolts. Nothin changes between the two, other than you aren't coming off of the fire controls to cycle (obviously).

It pretty much comes down to what @theLBC stated above about followthrough. The only thing I really think about on a gas gun vs bolt is my current fouled round count and rounds remaining in the magazine/dropping the mag before firing the last shot in order to maintain (somewhat) consistent bolt movement/recoil pattern. The amount of rounds in the magazine, how fouled the bore is, how dirty/dry/wet the BCG is, and your grip pressure/influence can all come into play and affect your groups. Outside of the semi-auto cycling aspect, everything else is the same except that all of your flaws and fundamental errors will be magnified.

Side note: If you are physically having an issue with getting that 90 degree straight back press, then you should consider replacing your current grip with the Magpul MOE-K2, which has a bit more of a vertical angle to it. But something like that isn't the root of the problem you're having, just figured I'd share that as a side note.
 
i try to follow through on each shot, holding the trigger through all 3 stages of recoil (vs 1 stage in a bolt gun) before allowing reset.
if nothing else, this slows me down and stops me from stabbing at the trigger.

what sort of trigger are you using?
the 2 stage geissele on mine makes the trigger part easier, but you still have to do everything else right.
I definitely am pinning it back through recoil, for me it's the aspect of getting a straight back trigger press off of a bench. I'm not slapping it at all, but it's more the angle of pull that I'm working on getting consistent with.

I'm shooting a ssa-e so it's not that haha.
 
I use the same mental checklist with my gas guns as I do on my bolts. Nothin changes between the two, other than you aren't coming off of the fire controls to cycle (obviously).

It pretty much comes down to what @theLBC stated above about followthrough. The only thing I really think about on a gas gun vs bolt is my current fouled round count and rounds remaining in the magazine/dropping the mag before firing the last shot in order to maintain (somewhat) consistent bolt movement/recoil pattern. The amount of rounds in the magazine, how fouled the bore is, how dirty/dry/wet the BCG is, and your grip pressure/influence can all come into play and affect your groups. Outside of the semi-auto cycling aspect, everything else is the same except that all of your flaws and fundamental errors will be magnified.

Side note: If you are physically having an issue with getting that 90 degree straight back press, then you should consider replacing your current grip with the Magpul MOE-K2, which has a bit more of a vertical angle to it. But something like that isn't the root of the problem you're having, just figured I'd share that as a side note.
Appreciate the reply here.

It seems like I'm just not able to ignore/get sloppy on the fundamentals, so it takes a bit more focus to get it right.

Like I mentioned when I'm on, this rifle stacks rounds on top of each other but when I'm off, it goes to 1.5", which isn't bad for an AR but not what I'm going for. Shows that I CAN get it right, but am not doing so all the time. And, I want to be doing it right all the time haha.

I'll make sure to keep the checklist the same, and just drive it home. I think it's the trigger press and making the grip the same each time. Funny, I actually have a k2 on there already. On the bench I have a tendency to let my palm get lazy/ not shore up to the grip for a more relaxed wrist position, but just looking at it..., The back half of my hand needs to be in line with the rifle.

Appreciate the input. Sounds like it's a function of getting more consistent on this gun, checklist is the same. Know how to marry up to it and go from there.
 
Appreciate the reply here.

It seems like I'm just not able to ignore/get sloppy on the fundamentals, so it takes a bit more focus to get it right.

Like I mentioned when I'm on, this rifle stacks rounds on top of each other but when I'm off, it goes to 1.5", which isn't bad for an AR but not what I'm going for. Shows that I CAN get it right, but am not doing so all the time. And, I want to be doing it right all the time haha.

I'll make sure to keep the checklist the same, and just drive it home. I think it's the trigger press and making the grip the same each time. Funny, I actually have a k2 on there already. On the bench I have a tendency to let my palm get lazy/ not shore up to the grip for a more relaxed wrist position, but just looking at it..., The back half of my hand needs to be in line with the rifle.

Appreciate the input. Sounds like it's a function of getting more consistent on this gun, checklist is the same. Know how to marry up to it and go from there.
No problem man. I had the same thing happen a while back after a long break from running a gas gun. Just requires that little bit of extra focus that we can sometimes get away with not having on a bolt gun.

?
 
  • Like
Reactions: rybe390
Break sending a round into two parts; set up and performance. Set up is a checklist that you can mentally go through and make sure you have it right(correct positioning and angles). You can check this stiff off and then shift your focus to performance. Performance is the actual act of pulling the trigger and following through. You can have great set up but if your mind isn’t in the right place your performance can ruin that with flinching or anticipating or just giving up control as soon as the trigger is pulled. Keep both eyes open and stay present all of the way through recoil. Your goal is not to pull the trigger when the reticle is lined up. If this is your goal, intentional or not, it is really hard to follow through correctly because you are telling your subcinscious that you are done as soon as the trigger is pulled. The trigger pull is literally just the beginning of the important part so you need to tell your subconscious to stay with it until the whole sequence is over.

Make your goal to watch the round hit the target with zero movement or reaction to the sound/recoil. Once that is truly your goal you start to see how much you we missing during recoil blackout. Get your mind out of the rifle and on your objective, watching the round hit the target. Watch it happen until recoil is completely done and there is a hole in whatever you are shooting at. If you can’t do this you need to dry fire 1000 more times. When you dry fire, make sure your positions are correct but then keep your mind focused on the objective(not the rifle) and “see” the round hit the target every time you pull the trigger. This will train your subconscious to stay with it rather than letting go right when you pull the trigger.
 
One thing you might consider is to use your cell phone camera to do a video of yourself shooting. I can't add anything to the great suggestions you are getting in this thread, and many of the behaviors in them (Precision Underground in particular) have as much to do with your mental process as with the positional elements. That said, you may find that the 1.5 MOA shots are obvious to see -- maybe you are jerking the trigger, or moving your cheek off the stock -- who knows? You may find that your shooting fundamentals in the tight groups are obvious compared to your shot execution in the more open groups.

If you can't see a difference in your shot execution on video, then it probably is all literally in your mind.

One other thing to consider, though it may not work for you -- one of the best service rifle shooters in the country -- national champion level -- puts the trigger shoe into the groove under the first knuckle of his trigger finger and then squeezes the trigger simply by closing his grip, as if he were closing his grip on a hammer. All depends on the size of your hand, the size of the grip, etc etc, but may be a way for you to make the trigger pull consistent.
 
how's your grip? too tight?
try moving your thumb from around the grip, so all you can do is use 3 fingers to push the rifle into your shoulder.
this is closer to shooting a conventional bolt gun and you typically want your thumb passive, not putting pressure on anything, imho.
anyway, that is how i was taught.
i would assume this is how you shoot your cz, and perhaps the pistol grip of a gas gun is one big difference for us to consider.

some people like me shoot their gas guns with a "weak" thumb position, unless they are running around with the rifle.
the rifle should be pointing naturally at the target, so there should be no need to steer it with your grip.
you may be less likely to push or pull the grip left or right without that strong pistol grip.
and if nothing else, this again reinforces the habit of being able to relax and the keep your poa.

/i'm no expert. just something to try and see what is different.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ssdrew
Break sending a round into two parts; set up and performance. Set up is a checklist that you can mentally go through and make sure you have it right(correct positioning and angles). You can check this stiff off and then shift your focus to performance. Performance is the actual act of pulling the trigger and following through. You can have great set up but if your mind isn’t in the right place your performance can ruin that with flinching or anticipating or just giving up control as soon as the trigger is pulled. Keep both eyes open and stay present all of the way through recoil. Your goal is not to pull the trigger when the reticle is lined up. If this is your goal, intentional or not, it is really hard to follow through correctly because you are telling your subcinscious that you are done as soon as the trigger is pulled. The trigger pull is literally just the beginning of the important part so you need to tell your subconscious to stay with it until the whole sequence is over.

Make your goal to watch the round hit the target with zero movement or reaction to the sound/recoil. Once that is truly your goal you start to see how much you we missing during recoil blackout. Get your mind out of the rifle and on your objective, watching the round hit the target. Watch it happen until recoil is completely done and there is a hole in whatever you are shooting at. If you can’t do this you need to dry fire 1000 more times. When you dry fire, make sure your positions are correct but then keep your mind focused on the objective(not the rifle) and “see” the round hit the target every time you pull the trigger. This will train your subconscious to stay with it rather than letting go right when you pull the trigger.
I hadn't thought about breaking it down like that, thank you. Excited to hit the range with a new breakdown and way to approach the shot.
 
Do you guys drive your gas guns harder in regards to grip or load as compared to bolt guns? I hear a lot of people mention that gas guns require increased grip pressure and load, however the few times I've tried that while experimenting it did not work at all. I've gone back to driving the gun the same as my bolt action and staying relatively relaxed. It seems changing my grip to exaggerate a 90 degree trigger finger has improved accuracy, but consistency when shooting 3 or 4 five-shot groups is still not where I want it.
 
changing my grip to exaggerate a 90 degree trigger finger has improved accuracy
As @theLBC mentions above and also explained in one of the Online Training videos, the proper hold is developed with the 90-degree trigger first and followed by the finger pulling back with 15lbs pressure. The thumb typically doesn't wrap around the grip as you would with a pistol.
 
Not all gas guns should be lumped together. I can get away with almost free-recoiling a heavy .223 Rem or 6mm, but not a 6.5 Grendel (shooting 100gr or heavier) or AR-10. 95gr or less in the Grendel seems more free-recoil friendly. A lightweight AR-15 in any caliber requires the gas gun fundamentals as well usually.

When I get on a bolt gun, it feels like I’m cheating, because I shoot gas guns almost exclusively.

With the larger calibers and more recoil on a gas gun, you have to really dive back into fundamentals and master them. One little loosening up or mistake and you’ll have a 1.2-1.5 MOA group that could have been a .7 MOA or better.

The most overlooked, least-discussed fundamental is setting up the position with natural point of aim (NPOA) to the dead center of the target.

I do this whether it’s on a bench (doing the tedious task of load development and zero confirmation), or in the field off a tripod with a hybrid position on sloped terrain. Same for seated and slung-in. You can do everything else right to the T, but if your overall position is not oriented dead-through the TGT, you will not have much success. From the bench, this means the NPOA should be as close to within 1 MOA as possible, versus the reticle naturally pointing somewhere else on the paper, even on small TGTs. The position of your hips is central to good NPOA, not only on long guns, but pistols and bows as well.

No matter what, I focus on the TGT as I’m getting into position, not the rifle, the support, or what’s going on around the position with bags, mats, etc. 100% TGT focus looking over the top of the rifle, then setting the rifle into position so that it’s oriented through the TGT.

Once I get behind optics, I settle the gun into the TGT by simulating what the recoil actually does. One of my friends who hadn’t shot with me before thought I had Parkinson’s when he watched me settle-in the gun. Once I have the first sight picture, I close my eyes and simulate recoil, then see what direction the position deteriorated. I then re-build with as much body movement and position as possible to set the NPOA up through the TGT. I do many of these position settling cycles, not just one until I’m happy. If you try to muscle into a centered sight picture, the NPOA will be somewhere else.

I don’t take my time with a string of shots. I rapid-fire the group on a cadence, but it took many years before I got confident with this approach. I first saw it demonstrated by a senior NCO in the AMU at Benning. He could rapid-fire groups on-demand with other people’s rifles.

With the AR-10 or 6.5 Grendel AR-15, I apply way more rearward pressure on the grip, which presses the butt into my pectoral muscle. I also apply a lot of pressure with the support hand into the rear bag or toe of the stock to weld that butt into my pec. From a field position, you can grab your sleeve material and clamp the butt into your hand. I maintain a solid cheek weld as well, with a rifle that is properly set-up for optic height matching eye height on the same plane. Having the rifle built around you is a big contributor to consistent fundamentals. If you have to fight with the rifle, it takes your attentional focus away from maintaining a good sight picture.

Over the past few years, I’ve been doing more 7 o’clock approaches into the POA instead of trying to hold on the POA if it’s a field position, and I even practice this from a solid rest on the bench. I’ve shot consistent 5rd groups into anywhere from the .3s to the .6s with both .308 and 6.5 Grendel using that method. It’s interesting that I’ve shot some of these groups out of impatience many times, after another shooter had doubts about the rifle and its accuracy potential right there on the range.

I simply jump behind the gun doing all the things I’m talking about, settle in the gun into NPOA, go quickly into my fundamentals sequence (sight picture/alignment, breathing control/trigger control/hit the wall in sequence with the sight picture and time the shot in the happy place, follow through, inhale, exhale same thing...break the shot, all very quickly in cadence). My sight picture, breathing control, trigger control, and follow-through all happen within a tiny section of time. I see them all as the same fundamental, not separate mental tasks that you have to think through. This is one of the biggest breakthroughs for me after a lifetime of shooting. Instead of individual tasks that you task-stack mentally, they are intuitive and seamless tasks that happen in a state of flow.

It goes against most of what I’ve seen, but really sets you up for shooting off positions in the field much better. For off-hand, the 7 o’clock approach works so well, I wish I had been taught it decades ago. I struggled with off-hand all my life until I learned the 7 o-clock approach, which now feels like cheating. It’s like bowling from 7 basically. Once you know a trigger’s behavior, you can time it consistently so that the shot breaks exactly into the POA. For a Left Hand shooter, try bowling from 5 o’clock for your field positions and off-hand.

For bench work with the AR, having a billet or precision-machined receiver set with a rifle that feels like one solid piece gives you a lot more control of the rifle, which builds confidence.

There are different positions you can do off the bench with the AR-15 and AR-10 that will affect group sizes. All positions are assumed that you’re using a rear bag.

The least-stable is front of handguard on hard support.

The next is bipod legs on wood bench, followed by cement bench.

Next best is bipod legs folded on a front bag or range block step with carpet.

Next best is the Bulls Bag with the bag close to the mag well, not up front on the handguard. I recommend this support method if you’re really trying to wring out the most accuracy. The Bulls Bag plus a Magpul PRS with a good rear bag and great trigger go a long way in helping shoot the gas guns better. Since I shoot so much field position, I don’t really rely on a lot of things I can’t carry in the field, but for those who are trying to just shoot groups for whatever reason, invest in the Bulls Bag and a good rear bag, a LaRue MBT-2S or whatever high-end trigger floats your boat, apply the fundamentals consistently, with quality ammunition, barrel, balanced torque optics mount with quality optics, and you’ll have success. If you’re skimping on barrel, ammo, assembly method, and the laundry list of things that make an accurate rifle, you might just be wasting your time trying to chase A game performance with B and C game tools.

iu
 
@LRRPF52 why do you prefer the bag closer to the receiver than the end of the handguard? I'm trying to tighten up my gas gun fundamentals and thought a bag further out would give more support.
 
@LRRPF52 why do you prefer the bag closer to the receiver than the end of the handguard? I'm trying to tighten up my gas gun fundamentals and thought a bag further out would give more support.
You’re not going to sharpen much for fundamentals with a front bag like that. What it’s doing is removing shooter influence so while you may shoot better groups it likely won’t help you as a shooter.
 
@LRRPF52 why do you prefer the bag closer to the receiver than the end of the handguard? I'm trying to tighten up my gas gun fundamentals and thought a bag further out would give more support.
It’s something Tom Beckstrand covered in a really good article about how to test out accuracy from gas guns.

I normally am shooting bipod-supported, off a tripod, or barricade-supported positions.

For load development, I’m usually shooting off front and rear bags.

When I dial-in my zero, it’s often bipod-supported.

Confirming and fine-tuning zero is a different process for me than load development/accuracy testing.

I’ve also done zeroing, shooting groups, and dot drills with tripods.

Dot drills really help you learn to consistently build and repeat your process when working with a coach/instructor.

If you’ve ever noticed, you can shoot a string of 5rd groups on the same piece of paper, where the POI shifts depending on which bull on the TGT you’re shooting.

The rifle will settle into certain positions better depending on which bull you’re aiming at, so it’s very difficult for shooters to maintain consistent POI even on the same piece of paper at 100yds.

I actually lean to consistent dot drill performance being better than shooting tight groups, because you have more control of your shot placement TGT-to-TGT. It’s best if you can do both.
 
I have a fraction of the experience of a lot of dudes here, but I've found using a sling pretty helpful on a gas gun. Even a regular old 2 point quick adjust. If you really cinch it down when getting in position it'll naturally drive you and the rifle together. I've found this particularly helpful off of challenging barricades where you cant get a good position and nothing is stable enough to really lean into.

ETA- it's also good for when you're monpoding off a 30rd mag. More of 2gun/action match type of situation but surprisingly effective if the terrain allows it
 
  • Like
Reactions: mtrmn
I have a fraction of the experience of a lot of dudes here, but I've found using a sling pretty helpful on a gas gun. Even a regular old 2 point quick adjust. If you really cinch it down when getting in position it'll naturally drive you and the rifle together. I've found this particularly helpful off of challenging barricades where you cant get a good position and nothing is stable enough to really lean into.

ETA- it's also good for when you're monpoding off a 30rd mag. More of 2gun/action match type of situation but surprisingly effective if the terrain allows it
Nothing wrong with using a sling. What it’s doing is connecting the rifle to you. This is why guys think that “loading the bipod” matters when they lean into the rifle really hard. All it’s doing is connecting the rifle to their body. That’s not a great way to make this connection though. The most controllable/consistent way to make it is with your firing hand pulling into your shoulder. So take the same feel you have from the sling and use your firing hand to pull straight into a relaxed shoulder. That connection makes the rifle part of you. Then you can use your body position to drive the rifle. The key here is you have to learn to really connect yourself to the ground so that when you connect the rifle to your body it’s not moving all over the place. Your body basically becomes a big bag that stabilizes the rifle.