What are the cons about dry firing your weapon alot for practice. I know what the pros are(perfect practice makes perfect) just focused on the gun and how it might hurt it right now. Thanks guys.
JC
JC
- Thread starter JC Steel
- Start date
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
if its a bolt gun its not going to hurt it at all. Dry Fire away, the rimfires are the ones you dont want to dry fire
if its a bolt gun its not going to hurt it at all. Dry Fire away, the rimfires are the ones you dont want to dry fire
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
Rimfire is the one you need to be concerned about.....
Other than that..........
Pull the trigger (correctly) to your hears content.
Rimfire is the one you need to be concerned about.....
Other than that..........
Pull the trigger (correctly) to your hears content.
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
Just curious, but what does dry firing hurt on rimfire rifles?
Just curious, but what does dry firing hurt on rimfire rifles?
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
It is not uncommon on rimfires for the firing pin protrusion to be longer than the headspace. This allows the firing pin to hit on the back edge of the chamber, and can deform the metal at this point damaging the chamber.
It is not uncommon on rimfires for the firing pin protrusion to be longer than the headspace. This allows the firing pin to hit on the back edge of the chamber, and can deform the metal at this point damaging the chamber.
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
Thanks Rhys.
Thanks Rhys.
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
Snap caps are useful as dummy rounds for ball-and-dummy drills, and also for cycling through a weapon - I use them for practice putting slug rounds in a shotgun when the tube is loaded with buck.
They are not needed when dry-firing centerfire weapons.
Snap caps are useful as dummy rounds for ball-and-dummy drills, and also for cycling through a weapon - I use them for practice putting slug rounds in a shotgun when the tube is loaded with buck.
They are not needed when dry-firing centerfire weapons.
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
Snap caps have additional (and I believe, more appropriate) uses during practice and training when a shooter suspects they may be anticipating the sear's release. They mix in a cap with a few live rounds in the magazine, without the shooter knowing exactly when it's getting chambered. If they're anticipating, it's unmistakable when the sear releases on the dummy round.
I don't dry fire in the usual sense. I leave the rifle uncocked, and pull the trigger all the way back to the stop. I think there are two advantages to doing this instead. First, there can be no question about whether or not the practice affects the rifle regarding wear and tear, etc. Also, since the sear never actually gets released, it's impossible for the shooter to become so accustomed to the trigger that they can no longer fail to know when sear release is imminent. I think that's not only possible but common, and can muck up a shooter's technique. I think that the more a shooter dry fires, the more likely this becomes.
Greg
Snap caps have additional (and I believe, more appropriate) uses during practice and training when a shooter suspects they may be anticipating the sear's release. They mix in a cap with a few live rounds in the magazine, without the shooter knowing exactly when it's getting chambered. If they're anticipating, it's unmistakable when the sear releases on the dummy round.
I don't dry fire in the usual sense. I leave the rifle uncocked, and pull the trigger all the way back to the stop. I think there are two advantages to doing this instead. First, there can be no question about whether or not the practice affects the rifle regarding wear and tear, etc. Also, since the sear never actually gets released, it's impossible for the shooter to become so accustomed to the trigger that they can no longer fail to know when sear release is imminent. I think that's not only possible but common, and can muck up a shooter's technique. I think that the more a shooter dry fires, the more likely this becomes.
Greg
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
I bought some snap caps, and after the first 5 trigger pulls, the firing pin had already worn a hole in the plastic primer, convincing me that snap caps are worthless
I bought some snap caps, and after the first 5 trigger pulls, the firing pin had already worn a hole in the plastic primer, convincing me that snap caps are worthless
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
In stead of convincing that snap caps are worthless, it should convince you that the snap cap did do its job, and that your firing pin is still there and also did its job.
In pistols, you do not want to dry fire without a snap cap. I have seen many cases that the firing pin did not retract due to no returning force (empty chamber). If the user overlook that and insert a magazine, often you can say goodbye to your firing pin.
With my AR, I do not worry too much since the firing pin is not as expensive, and very easy to replace, I can do it on my own, but I would not want to mess with the upper slide mechanism of my pistol.
With bolt guns, above few posts have already explained well on its use and cautions.
Hope this helps, and please correct me if I stated anything wrong.
Thank you ,
Dyl..
In stead of convincing that snap caps are worthless, it should convince you that the snap cap did do its job, and that your firing pin is still there and also did its job.
In pistols, you do not want to dry fire without a snap cap. I have seen many cases that the firing pin did not retract due to no returning force (empty chamber). If the user overlook that and insert a magazine, often you can say goodbye to your firing pin.
With my AR, I do not worry too much since the firing pin is not as expensive, and very easy to replace, I can do it on my own, but I would not want to mess with the upper slide mechanism of my pistol.
With bolt guns, above few posts have already explained well on its use and cautions.
Hope this helps, and please correct me if I stated anything wrong.
Thank you ,
Dyl..
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
I personally haven't used snap caps in several years. However there are higher quality versions that have spring loaded metal discs where the primer on a normal round would be. These would prevent the problem the plastic snap caps have of wearing out.
I personally haven't used snap caps in several years. However there are higher quality versions that have spring loaded metal discs where the primer on a normal round would be. These would prevent the problem the plastic snap caps have of wearing out.
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In pistols, you do not want to dry fire without a snap cap.</div></div>
That hasn't been true in my experience. I've dry-fired 1911s and Glocks thousands and thousands of times without damage. Same with my bolt guns.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In pistols, you do not want to dry fire without a snap cap.</div></div>
That hasn't been true in my experience. I've dry-fired 1911s and Glocks thousands and thousands of times without damage. Same with my bolt guns.
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Snap caps have additional (and I believe, more appropriate) uses during practice and training when a shooter suspects they may be anticipating the sear's release. They mix in a cap with a few live rounds in the magazine, without the shooter knowing exactly when it's getting chambered. If they're anticipating, it's unmistakable when the sear releases on the dummy round.
I don't dry fire in the usual sense. I leave the rifle uncocked, and pull the trigger all the way back to the stop. I think there are two advantages to doing this instead. First, there can be no question about whether or not the practice affects the rifle regarding wear and tear, etc. Also, since the sear never actually gets released, it's impossible for the shooter to become so accustomed to the trigger that they can no longer fail to know when sear release is imminent. I think that's not only possible but common, and can muck up a shooter's technique. I think that the more a shooter dry fires, the more likely this becomes.
Greg </div></div>
Greg,
Thank you for posting this! I dry fire regularly. Doing so makes becoming accustomed to when the sear releases inevitable. Suddenly it makes 100% more sense to dry fire with an uncocked rifle.
-Chris
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Snap caps have additional (and I believe, more appropriate) uses during practice and training when a shooter suspects they may be anticipating the sear's release. They mix in a cap with a few live rounds in the magazine, without the shooter knowing exactly when it's getting chambered. If they're anticipating, it's unmistakable when the sear releases on the dummy round.
I don't dry fire in the usual sense. I leave the rifle uncocked, and pull the trigger all the way back to the stop. I think there are two advantages to doing this instead. First, there can be no question about whether or not the practice affects the rifle regarding wear and tear, etc. Also, since the sear never actually gets released, it's impossible for the shooter to become so accustomed to the trigger that they can no longer fail to know when sear release is imminent. I think that's not only possible but common, and can muck up a shooter's technique. I think that the more a shooter dry fires, the more likely this becomes.
Greg </div></div>
Greg,
Thank you for posting this! I dry fire regularly. Doing so makes becoming accustomed to when the sear releases inevitable. Suddenly it makes 100% more sense to dry fire with an uncocked rifle.
-Chris
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
Yeah it a bolt gun and I am just trying to get a more consistent trigger pull and more consistent set up. Thanks for chiming in guys.
Yeah it a bolt gun and I am just trying to get a more consistent trigger pull and more consistent set up. Thanks for chiming in guys.
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
Just another question. When NPA <span style="text-decoration: underline">HAS</span> been acheived, one would expect that afer cycling the bolt, for the target to come back into the crosshairs almost exactly...right?
I was able to acheive this almost without fail, but not sure if that means I've got what I'm looking for.
Just another question. When NPA <span style="text-decoration: underline">HAS</span> been acheived, one would expect that afer cycling the bolt, for the target to come back into the crosshairs almost exactly...right?
I was able to acheive this almost without fail, but not sure if that means I've got what I'm looking for.
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
I have dry fired handguns and bolt rifles along with everything but Rimfire and I have never had an issue! I always pull the trigger!
I have dry fired handguns and bolt rifles along with everything but Rimfire and I have never had an issue! I always pull the trigger!
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wheres-Waldo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just another question. When NPA <span style="text-decoration: underline">HAS</span> been acheived, one would expect that afer cycling the bolt, for the target to come back into the crosshairs almost exactly...right?
I was able to acheive this almost without fail, but not sure if that means I've got what I'm looking for.</div></div>
In dry firing practice, I re-build the position, that's to say, I take the butt out of shoulder after the shot call. Re-building the position supports the proper sequence for executing the firing task: sight alignment, adjustment of NPA, trigger control, and then, follow-through. With focus on the sight through-out the process, dry firing can help any hopeful shooter become an extraordinay marksman without the expense of ammunition associated with marksmanship development.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wheres-Waldo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just another question. When NPA <span style="text-decoration: underline">HAS</span> been acheived, one would expect that afer cycling the bolt, for the target to come back into the crosshairs almost exactly...right?
I was able to acheive this almost without fail, but not sure if that means I've got what I'm looking for.</div></div>
In dry firing practice, I re-build the position, that's to say, I take the butt out of shoulder after the shot call. Re-building the position supports the proper sequence for executing the firing task: sight alignment, adjustment of NPA, trigger control, and then, follow-through. With focus on the sight through-out the process, dry firing can help any hopeful shooter become an extraordinay marksman without the expense of ammunition associated with marksmanship development.
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
Charles and I think alike.
After firing, I check NPA, which usually results in rebuilding it anyway.
IMHO the value of NPA is not in whether or not it returns to NPA after the recoil cycle, but rather that the NPA ensures the least possible outside interference on the firearm during the recoil cycle, allowing more consistent POI.
Once the cycle is completed, the NPA is restored consciously.
It may have changed, it may not, but checking/rebuilding it after each shot needs to be a regular portion of my shot regimen.
Greg
Charles and I think alike.
After firing, I check NPA, which usually results in rebuilding it anyway.
IMHO the value of NPA is not in whether or not it returns to NPA after the recoil cycle, but rather that the NPA ensures the least possible outside interference on the firearm during the recoil cycle, allowing more consistent POI.
Once the cycle is completed, the NPA is restored consciously.
It may have changed, it may not, but checking/rebuilding it after each shot needs to be a regular portion of my shot regimen.
Greg
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
Has anybody written a good dissertation on NPA? Had a bit of range time over the weekend and was noticing at 400+ yards I was getting much more horizontal dispersion (1MOA horizontal .25-.50 MOA vertical). I was holding the same point from an aiming standpoint. I understand the theory of coming straight back on the trigger and not influencing the shot and follow through or not jumping off the trigger. I also understand being straight behind the rifle. What I would be you recommendation to help tighten the group up without having to make the rifle go bang?
Has anybody written a good dissertation on NPA? Had a bit of range time over the weekend and was noticing at 400+ yards I was getting much more horizontal dispersion (1MOA horizontal .25-.50 MOA vertical). I was holding the same point from an aiming standpoint. I understand the theory of coming straight back on the trigger and not influencing the shot and follow through or not jumping off the trigger. I also understand being straight behind the rifle. What I would be you recommendation to help tighten the group up without having to make the rifle go bang?
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has anybody written a good dissertation on NPA? Had a bit of range time over the weekend and was noticing at 400+ yards I was getting much more horizontal dispersion (1MOA horizontal .25-.50 MOA vertical). I was holding the same point from an aiming standpoint. I understand the theory of coming straight back on the trigger and not influencing the shot and follow through or not jumping off the trigger. I also understand being straight behind the rifle. What I would be you recommendation to help tighten the group up without having to make the rifle go bang?</div></div>
Natural point of aim is an element of a steady position, which also includes muscular relaxation and bone/artificial support. Shooting, without having adjusted NPA, will likely incourage bullet placement other than desired as muscular relaxation after trigger pull, yet before the bullet has cleared the bore, will steer the rifle's bore back to the NPA not initally adjusted.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has anybody written a good dissertation on NPA? Had a bit of range time over the weekend and was noticing at 400+ yards I was getting much more horizontal dispersion (1MOA horizontal .25-.50 MOA vertical). I was holding the same point from an aiming standpoint. I understand the theory of coming straight back on the trigger and not influencing the shot and follow through or not jumping off the trigger. I also understand being straight behind the rifle. What I would be you recommendation to help tighten the group up without having to make the rifle go bang?</div></div>
Natural point of aim is an element of a steady position, which also includes muscular relaxation and bone/artificial support. Shooting, without having adjusted NPA, will likely incourage bullet placement other than desired as muscular relaxation after trigger pull, yet before the bullet has cleared the bore, will steer the rifle's bore back to the NPA not initally adjusted.
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
IMHO the value of NPA is not in whether or not it returns to NPA after the recoil cycle, but rather that the NPA ensures the least possible outside interference on the firearm during the recoil cycle, allowing more consistent POI.
Greg</div></div>
This concept must be appreciated if becoming an extraordinary shooter is the goal. It's the secret to winning at the highest level. Nothing is more important. In fact, only by perfecting the position to a molecular level will recoil ever become predictable enough for bullets, shot after shot, to go exactly where aimed.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
IMHO the value of NPA is not in whether or not it returns to NPA after the recoil cycle, but rather that the NPA ensures the least possible outside interference on the firearm during the recoil cycle, allowing more consistent POI.
Greg</div></div>
This concept must be appreciated if becoming an extraordinary shooter is the goal. It's the secret to winning at the highest level. Nothing is more important. In fact, only by perfecting the position to a molecular level will recoil ever become predictable enough for bullets, shot after shot, to go exactly where aimed.
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
Horizontal dispersion, IMHO, has it's most likely origin in trigger manipulation.
Finger placement on the trigger should be accomplished with no other contact between the trigger finger and the trigger itself.
Allowing trigger finger contact with the stock is a malady called 'dragging wood', and believe it or not, is sufficient in itself to cause the rifle to recoil off center horizontally, causing additional horizontal dispersion.
This is most likely one of the factors Charles is referring to when he refers to 'the molecular level'.
Greg
Horizontal dispersion, IMHO, has it's most likely origin in trigger manipulation.
Finger placement on the trigger should be accomplished with no other contact between the trigger finger and the trigger itself.
Allowing trigger finger contact with the stock is a malady called 'dragging wood', and believe it or not, is sufficient in itself to cause the rifle to recoil off center horizontally, causing additional horizontal dispersion.
This is most likely one of the factors Charles is referring to when he refers to 'the molecular level'.
Greg
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
Wow, this turned into a much more informative thread. I'm glad it went a little off topic. I dry fire whatever weapon I am going to be shooting that day, in my NPA, prior to taking the first shot. It helps work out the bugs before getting on target. Its cheap practice and I feel it makes me a better shooter.
Wow, this turned into a much more informative thread. I'm glad it went a little off topic. I dry fire whatever weapon I am going to be shooting that day, in my NPA, prior to taking the first shot. It helps work out the bugs before getting on target. Its cheap practice and I feel it makes me a better shooter.
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
Years ago, I did a 'column' of sorts here at The 'Hide; we called it <span style="font-style: italic">Black Thoughts</span>. For reason best left unsaid (basically, I was behaving like an asshole) they didn't make it over to the site's new format. I keep them in my personal archives and occasionally repost one of them to flesh out a concept. Here's on that touches on NPA, as part of a larger whole.
<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Out of the Black and Into the Gray Areas</span></span>
By Greg Langelius
Black and white, cut and dried, numerically demonstrable fact; lots of things are like that. They tend to be straightforward; simple matters, not complex matters.
Not matters like precision rifle accuracy.
Doesn’t it strike you as odd that the goals we seek are dependent upon consistency, yet the means of achieving them are based on the complex interaction of a large number of factors?
So how is all this achievable with any degree of consistency?
Achieving consistency of the whole is dependent upon maintaining the consistency of the parts. Where parts are beyond control, an understanding of the consequences of their change permits compensation for their variations.
The tangible components of accuracy, the firearm, the ammunition, these are all matters which can be controlled with a satisfactory results.
The environmental components, the atmosphere, the light conditions, are factors over which we exercise no control; ones we must understand as much as possible in order to adjust for their variances.
The other factor, the operator, the Thinking Component, is both capable of making those compensations, and probably the least reliable component of the system.
Where goals are missed, it is most likely to be the thinking component that failed.
So where do we fail?
The failures will most likely stem from failure to observe or failure to concentrate, or both.
When I was learning to shoot rifles accurately at short to middle ranges; I was actually relearning it for real after several less serious applications of the training. I had learned it as a youth from my older brothers. I had learned it as a Marine Recruit from my Drill Instructors and Primary Marksmanship Instructor. My goals had been to hit that squirrel or ‘Chuck, or to render an enemy combatant a casualty. For this, moderately good marksmanship was required; precision was desirable, but not mandatory.
For the most part, I’d get a reasonable sight picture, pull the trigger and wait for the smoke to clear. If I missed, I'd shoot again.
The consequences of the miss were not significant so long as I remained healthy and there was another round in the magazine. Or, another target would come along soon enough.
Then I began getting involved in shooting competition with other shooters whose skills and equipment were far superior to mine. Now, there was a cost associated with less than stellar performance.
I began to learn and practice positions, breathing, sight alignment, sight picture, trigger control, follow-through, and all those physical and mental factors that make a difference. I began to learn how to make ammunition and test loads for accuracy. I began to learn what made firearms work well and work poorly, and how to tweak them to help my effort.
It’s an awfully large amount of things to pay attention to, most of them all at the same time.
If you try to concentrate on all these things at once, you’ll fail; it’s not humanly possible. I’ll guarantee it. The human mind is incapable of concentrating on many things at once; some will tell you one thing is the limit, some will tell you they can do better than that. Regardless of where that truth lies, is does not encompass concentrating on all of it at once.
Yet we need to use all the skills to reach our goals.
So how can we do this?
We can do it by making most of it learned knowledge, that we apply be means of habit, rather than conscious thought.
When we have it down to the necessary minimums, we can limit or conscious concentration to sight picture and trigger squeeze, and let the trigger squeeze even be a matter for the automatic pilot as well.
The automatic pilot; what a concept!.
The shooter’s autopilot is the mass of learned skills.
It is built one skill at a time, practiced over and over, one skill at a time until it becomes utterly boring, utterly reliable.
My mentor is a great guy named Bill Miller. Bill was a very early Vietnam Marine, a Sea Bee, and recently retired as a CWO4 from the Army Reserves. He has participated at Perry as a service team armorer and as a shooter, and has at least one National Pistol Championship to his credit. He coached our MCL Shooting Team, building its collection of skills up from scratch.
Bill’s methods are sound and simple.
Start from nothing, assume there is nothing there. Teach range safety. Enforce range safety with swift and reliable ferocity. Place targets and tell the shooters to hit them; no training.
Let the shooters get frustrated. Ask them if they want to quit. Let the quitters leave.
Take the rest and ask them if they want to hit those targets after all. Start teaching the basic skills one at a time. Team the shooters in pairs, one shoots, the other observes and coaches, back and forth. Don’t move on until everyone shows some form of improvement in the particular skill. Advancement to the next lesson is dependent on everyone showing improvement. This cements the team, and reinforces the shooter/coach relationship.
One of the key values to this shooter/coach team concept is that by teaching a skill, by having to phrase it and describe it so another can understand it fully, the coach is also forced to understand it fully. At that point, their own learning becomes complete.
Work through the skills until all are taught at least once.
Establish the concept that everyone on the team is an instructor, the Team Coach’s job is to make sure someone in the team knows a particular skill, then direct interested individuals in that direction. The coach is interested in the whole team, the members handle individual cases.
Encourage individual practice. Concentrate on practicing only one skill per practice session.
I’m a wiseguy. I always assume I know better. I’m always wrong.
I assume I can think better than the next guy, that there’s really some secret that the others are missing, and all I need to do is figure it out and do it. Wrong! All that has ever led to has been mounting frustration, wasted ammunition, and wasted time.
There is no substitute for learning and religiously applying the basics. The positions, the skills, the knowledge about ballistic and the roles played by the system’s components; these are all valuable to any shooting discipline.
The thing that makes precision shooting different is that it is all carried to another level; in exactly the same manner as I went through when I started taking competition shooting seriously.
The equipment is refined. The skills are honed. The outside variables are studied and their effects are learned as an integrated factor in the practice process.
The hardest part to perfect is the self discipline. It is the one factor that can defeat a shooter. It is the one reason why some good shooters won’t become precision shooters. They can’t; they are incapable. Not everyone has the proper degree of self-discipline, and those who don’t won’t make it as precision shooters.
What do you do about that? You treat them with kindness, and gently help them on to more rewarding avocations. It’s not as if the thing we do is the only thing there is to do in the entire world; there are other things as well, equally rewarding to some. Where it is easier to quit, those who remain are fewer, but more committed. The others can often constitute an inexpensive source of excellent used gear, assuming they haven’t trashed it in their frustration.
When one commits to the narrow path that leads to excellence, one would do well to pause from time to time and ask oneself if it’s still worth it. This is a totally personal question; only we can decide what works and doesn’t work for ourselves. There’s a lot of stress involved in this discipline. One learns to cope with it, or in failing to do so; one compromises one’s own efforts, and those of others. It’s not just ourselves that succeed or fail by our efforts; there are others depending just as completely on our performance.
The other side of the coin is that we need to understand that perfection; though tempting, is an unrealistic goal. Seeking it simply results in constant frustration. We need to recognize that our goals must be attainable; constant frustration serves no positive purpose.
In everything I do, my goal is to leave the world a little better in my path. This means that all that is required is some form of improvement resulting from my participation. It need be neither major, nor solely due to my participation. It is the improvement that counts, not the authorship.
It is the selection of attainable goals that sustains the effort to reach that ultimate performance of which we are capable. Is improvement possible? Usually, it is. Is it mandatory? It is, but only if the current performance is unsatisfactory. We improve by our own conscious decision to do so. We find the way. There is nothing wrong with a sustained good performance. Improvement over that is a good thing, but is it beneficial to mandate it? Forcing the adoption of unattainable goals is an inherently destructive policy; regardless of where the demand originates.
Before one demands improvement of oneself or others; it would behoove one to determine whether the goal is attainable. Making a mistake here is not something without serious consequences.
But enough of these esoteric ramblings; we want to know the how, as well as the why.
Well; what’s a basic, and what lends itself to inclusion in the autopilot program?
The things that need to incorporated are the things that are taking place in the moment when the shot is actually being fired. The things that lead to that point don’t need to be in there. They need to be developed to a high level, but once they are applied, the autopilot is what gets the shot on target.
Position stays out of the box; but needs to be understood in order for it to be a positive factor in the good shot. It can be otherwise all too easily.
The good position is based on the natural point of aim; the steady state the body settles into when properly arranged and completely relaxed. On occasion, I have actually gotten into position on the line, and fallen asleep while waiting for the line to be called to attention This is the degree of relaxation I’m talking about. The way we find it is by trial and error. We assume our position down to and including the proper sight picture , breath control and, the start of the trigger take-up. We then close our eyes and take at least three deep breaths, and then totally relax. We release the breath to the natural respiratory pause, and open our eye again. We check the sight picture without moving, and see if we are still exactly on-target, If not we adjust our body toward a better position and try again. It usually takes several tries, but once attained, it can be maintained indefinitely; for hours, if necessary. It helps us to relax and still be fresh and competent when the order finally comes to take the shot. Failing to do this results in fatigue, stress, and discomfort, and impairs our ability to take the shot effectively when the order comes. It does not matter what the target is, it matters mainly that we be able to defeat it whenever the moment comes to do so.
Breathing also stays out of the box. There was mention of the natural respiratory pause. This is part of the natural breathing process. It is the point in the exhalation where the body pauses; air goes neither in nor out for a moment. Further exhalation would require conscious effort. When we pay no attention to our breathing in the natural progress of our daily actions, there often come a short period where this status is achieved and held naturally for some considerable time. We simply forget to breathe.
This is different from intentionally holding one’s breath. When we do that, we fill the lungs, slam our throat shut and hold on for dear life. Soon the pulse is pounding and it’s impossible to hold a steady reticle.
The way to make this work right is to understand the body’s need for breathing; the concept of oxygen debt. The body needs a balance between the amount of oxygen taken in against the demands the current state of activity requires to sustain a metabolic equilibrium. When we exert ourselves, the demand increases. The body takes care of regulating the breathing rate by utilizing the Vegus nerve, located in the neck area, for monitoring the carbon dioxide level in our blood. The system breathes harder when the level rises. It usually lags behind demand. If we don’t breathe enough our muscles weaken, and we get shocky, we tend to want to faint. If we breathe too much, we also tend to get light headed. There is a fair amount of room for error. When we get behind, we are in oxygen debt; when we get ahead, we get a little credit.
We can use this to our advantage. The amount of time the body can remain at respiratory pause, before that voice inside our heads starts screaming, “Gimme some air”, depends on how far we are into either debt or credit. The longer we can, the longer we can forget about breathing and concentrate on taking the shot. Depending on your cardiopulmonary health and aerobic capacity, you may even be able to stretch that pause to a full minute, maybe several minutes. If we start by doing a limited amount of hyperventilation, we get the credit. We learn to limit it to the point just before where we get light-headed. Once done, the natural respiratory pause can be stretched to a useful limit.
So what’s part of the autopilot?
First, the ability to exclude external distractions. Properly done, the mind turns off the external inputs; the hearing, the sense of feeling, of pain. The vision narrows to a tunnel, only the critical portions of the sight picture are consciously noticed. It’s like being in a chair reading when your wife calls you for dinner. She calls it, “Selective Deafness”. She’s absolutely right; whether or not the process is conscious or not. We all have the capacity to do this, it is what the Psychologists call the “Fugue State”. The task we face is to be able to consciously initiate it, then immediately switch to sustaining it as an unconscious process. How do we do this? It begins by believing we can, then finding something to concentrate on. That thing can be anything, the practice can take place anywhere that it’s safe to exclude the external world. Don’t doubt the process, it will happen.
Second, the trigger squeeze can be initiated the same way, then followed through subconsciously with the attention switched to the critical sight picture factors.
If the natural point of aim and breathing were established right, the autopilot needs nothing more to accomplish.
All this takes practice to get to the point where the autopilot becomes effective and reliable. Practice of one skill at a time; until that skill becomes utterly boring and utterly reliable.
Good marksmanship is no accident;
Greg Langelius
Years ago, I did a 'column' of sorts here at The 'Hide; we called it <span style="font-style: italic">Black Thoughts</span>. For reason best left unsaid (basically, I was behaving like an asshole) they didn't make it over to the site's new format. I keep them in my personal archives and occasionally repost one of them to flesh out a concept. Here's on that touches on NPA, as part of a larger whole.
<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Out of the Black and Into the Gray Areas</span></span>
By Greg Langelius
Black and white, cut and dried, numerically demonstrable fact; lots of things are like that. They tend to be straightforward; simple matters, not complex matters.
Not matters like precision rifle accuracy.
Doesn’t it strike you as odd that the goals we seek are dependent upon consistency, yet the means of achieving them are based on the complex interaction of a large number of factors?
So how is all this achievable with any degree of consistency?
Achieving consistency of the whole is dependent upon maintaining the consistency of the parts. Where parts are beyond control, an understanding of the consequences of their change permits compensation for their variations.
The tangible components of accuracy, the firearm, the ammunition, these are all matters which can be controlled with a satisfactory results.
The environmental components, the atmosphere, the light conditions, are factors over which we exercise no control; ones we must understand as much as possible in order to adjust for their variances.
The other factor, the operator, the Thinking Component, is both capable of making those compensations, and probably the least reliable component of the system.
Where goals are missed, it is most likely to be the thinking component that failed.
So where do we fail?
The failures will most likely stem from failure to observe or failure to concentrate, or both.
When I was learning to shoot rifles accurately at short to middle ranges; I was actually relearning it for real after several less serious applications of the training. I had learned it as a youth from my older brothers. I had learned it as a Marine Recruit from my Drill Instructors and Primary Marksmanship Instructor. My goals had been to hit that squirrel or ‘Chuck, or to render an enemy combatant a casualty. For this, moderately good marksmanship was required; precision was desirable, but not mandatory.
For the most part, I’d get a reasonable sight picture, pull the trigger and wait for the smoke to clear. If I missed, I'd shoot again.
The consequences of the miss were not significant so long as I remained healthy and there was another round in the magazine. Or, another target would come along soon enough.
Then I began getting involved in shooting competition with other shooters whose skills and equipment were far superior to mine. Now, there was a cost associated with less than stellar performance.
I began to learn and practice positions, breathing, sight alignment, sight picture, trigger control, follow-through, and all those physical and mental factors that make a difference. I began to learn how to make ammunition and test loads for accuracy. I began to learn what made firearms work well and work poorly, and how to tweak them to help my effort.
It’s an awfully large amount of things to pay attention to, most of them all at the same time.
If you try to concentrate on all these things at once, you’ll fail; it’s not humanly possible. I’ll guarantee it. The human mind is incapable of concentrating on many things at once; some will tell you one thing is the limit, some will tell you they can do better than that. Regardless of where that truth lies, is does not encompass concentrating on all of it at once.
Yet we need to use all the skills to reach our goals.
So how can we do this?
We can do it by making most of it learned knowledge, that we apply be means of habit, rather than conscious thought.
When we have it down to the necessary minimums, we can limit or conscious concentration to sight picture and trigger squeeze, and let the trigger squeeze even be a matter for the automatic pilot as well.
The automatic pilot; what a concept!.
The shooter’s autopilot is the mass of learned skills.
It is built one skill at a time, practiced over and over, one skill at a time until it becomes utterly boring, utterly reliable.
My mentor is a great guy named Bill Miller. Bill was a very early Vietnam Marine, a Sea Bee, and recently retired as a CWO4 from the Army Reserves. He has participated at Perry as a service team armorer and as a shooter, and has at least one National Pistol Championship to his credit. He coached our MCL Shooting Team, building its collection of skills up from scratch.
Bill’s methods are sound and simple.
Start from nothing, assume there is nothing there. Teach range safety. Enforce range safety with swift and reliable ferocity. Place targets and tell the shooters to hit them; no training.
Let the shooters get frustrated. Ask them if they want to quit. Let the quitters leave.
Take the rest and ask them if they want to hit those targets after all. Start teaching the basic skills one at a time. Team the shooters in pairs, one shoots, the other observes and coaches, back and forth. Don’t move on until everyone shows some form of improvement in the particular skill. Advancement to the next lesson is dependent on everyone showing improvement. This cements the team, and reinforces the shooter/coach relationship.
One of the key values to this shooter/coach team concept is that by teaching a skill, by having to phrase it and describe it so another can understand it fully, the coach is also forced to understand it fully. At that point, their own learning becomes complete.
Work through the skills until all are taught at least once.
Establish the concept that everyone on the team is an instructor, the Team Coach’s job is to make sure someone in the team knows a particular skill, then direct interested individuals in that direction. The coach is interested in the whole team, the members handle individual cases.
Encourage individual practice. Concentrate on practicing only one skill per practice session.
I’m a wiseguy. I always assume I know better. I’m always wrong.
I assume I can think better than the next guy, that there’s really some secret that the others are missing, and all I need to do is figure it out and do it. Wrong! All that has ever led to has been mounting frustration, wasted ammunition, and wasted time.
There is no substitute for learning and religiously applying the basics. The positions, the skills, the knowledge about ballistic and the roles played by the system’s components; these are all valuable to any shooting discipline.
The thing that makes precision shooting different is that it is all carried to another level; in exactly the same manner as I went through when I started taking competition shooting seriously.
The equipment is refined. The skills are honed. The outside variables are studied and their effects are learned as an integrated factor in the practice process.
The hardest part to perfect is the self discipline. It is the one factor that can defeat a shooter. It is the one reason why some good shooters won’t become precision shooters. They can’t; they are incapable. Not everyone has the proper degree of self-discipline, and those who don’t won’t make it as precision shooters.
What do you do about that? You treat them with kindness, and gently help them on to more rewarding avocations. It’s not as if the thing we do is the only thing there is to do in the entire world; there are other things as well, equally rewarding to some. Where it is easier to quit, those who remain are fewer, but more committed. The others can often constitute an inexpensive source of excellent used gear, assuming they haven’t trashed it in their frustration.
When one commits to the narrow path that leads to excellence, one would do well to pause from time to time and ask oneself if it’s still worth it. This is a totally personal question; only we can decide what works and doesn’t work for ourselves. There’s a lot of stress involved in this discipline. One learns to cope with it, or in failing to do so; one compromises one’s own efforts, and those of others. It’s not just ourselves that succeed or fail by our efforts; there are others depending just as completely on our performance.
The other side of the coin is that we need to understand that perfection; though tempting, is an unrealistic goal. Seeking it simply results in constant frustration. We need to recognize that our goals must be attainable; constant frustration serves no positive purpose.
In everything I do, my goal is to leave the world a little better in my path. This means that all that is required is some form of improvement resulting from my participation. It need be neither major, nor solely due to my participation. It is the improvement that counts, not the authorship.
It is the selection of attainable goals that sustains the effort to reach that ultimate performance of which we are capable. Is improvement possible? Usually, it is. Is it mandatory? It is, but only if the current performance is unsatisfactory. We improve by our own conscious decision to do so. We find the way. There is nothing wrong with a sustained good performance. Improvement over that is a good thing, but is it beneficial to mandate it? Forcing the adoption of unattainable goals is an inherently destructive policy; regardless of where the demand originates.
Before one demands improvement of oneself or others; it would behoove one to determine whether the goal is attainable. Making a mistake here is not something without serious consequences.
But enough of these esoteric ramblings; we want to know the how, as well as the why.
Well; what’s a basic, and what lends itself to inclusion in the autopilot program?
The things that need to incorporated are the things that are taking place in the moment when the shot is actually being fired. The things that lead to that point don’t need to be in there. They need to be developed to a high level, but once they are applied, the autopilot is what gets the shot on target.
Position stays out of the box; but needs to be understood in order for it to be a positive factor in the good shot. It can be otherwise all too easily.
The good position is based on the natural point of aim; the steady state the body settles into when properly arranged and completely relaxed. On occasion, I have actually gotten into position on the line, and fallen asleep while waiting for the line to be called to attention This is the degree of relaxation I’m talking about. The way we find it is by trial and error. We assume our position down to and including the proper sight picture , breath control and, the start of the trigger take-up. We then close our eyes and take at least three deep breaths, and then totally relax. We release the breath to the natural respiratory pause, and open our eye again. We check the sight picture without moving, and see if we are still exactly on-target, If not we adjust our body toward a better position and try again. It usually takes several tries, but once attained, it can be maintained indefinitely; for hours, if necessary. It helps us to relax and still be fresh and competent when the order finally comes to take the shot. Failing to do this results in fatigue, stress, and discomfort, and impairs our ability to take the shot effectively when the order comes. It does not matter what the target is, it matters mainly that we be able to defeat it whenever the moment comes to do so.
Breathing also stays out of the box. There was mention of the natural respiratory pause. This is part of the natural breathing process. It is the point in the exhalation where the body pauses; air goes neither in nor out for a moment. Further exhalation would require conscious effort. When we pay no attention to our breathing in the natural progress of our daily actions, there often come a short period where this status is achieved and held naturally for some considerable time. We simply forget to breathe.
This is different from intentionally holding one’s breath. When we do that, we fill the lungs, slam our throat shut and hold on for dear life. Soon the pulse is pounding and it’s impossible to hold a steady reticle.
The way to make this work right is to understand the body’s need for breathing; the concept of oxygen debt. The body needs a balance between the amount of oxygen taken in against the demands the current state of activity requires to sustain a metabolic equilibrium. When we exert ourselves, the demand increases. The body takes care of regulating the breathing rate by utilizing the Vegus nerve, located in the neck area, for monitoring the carbon dioxide level in our blood. The system breathes harder when the level rises. It usually lags behind demand. If we don’t breathe enough our muscles weaken, and we get shocky, we tend to want to faint. If we breathe too much, we also tend to get light headed. There is a fair amount of room for error. When we get behind, we are in oxygen debt; when we get ahead, we get a little credit.
We can use this to our advantage. The amount of time the body can remain at respiratory pause, before that voice inside our heads starts screaming, “Gimme some air”, depends on how far we are into either debt or credit. The longer we can, the longer we can forget about breathing and concentrate on taking the shot. Depending on your cardiopulmonary health and aerobic capacity, you may even be able to stretch that pause to a full minute, maybe several minutes. If we start by doing a limited amount of hyperventilation, we get the credit. We learn to limit it to the point just before where we get light-headed. Once done, the natural respiratory pause can be stretched to a useful limit.
So what’s part of the autopilot?
First, the ability to exclude external distractions. Properly done, the mind turns off the external inputs; the hearing, the sense of feeling, of pain. The vision narrows to a tunnel, only the critical portions of the sight picture are consciously noticed. It’s like being in a chair reading when your wife calls you for dinner. She calls it, “Selective Deafness”. She’s absolutely right; whether or not the process is conscious or not. We all have the capacity to do this, it is what the Psychologists call the “Fugue State”. The task we face is to be able to consciously initiate it, then immediately switch to sustaining it as an unconscious process. How do we do this? It begins by believing we can, then finding something to concentrate on. That thing can be anything, the practice can take place anywhere that it’s safe to exclude the external world. Don’t doubt the process, it will happen.
Second, the trigger squeeze can be initiated the same way, then followed through subconsciously with the attention switched to the critical sight picture factors.
If the natural point of aim and breathing were established right, the autopilot needs nothing more to accomplish.
All this takes practice to get to the point where the autopilot becomes effective and reliable. Practice of one skill at a time; until that skill becomes utterly boring and utterly reliable.
Good marksmanship is no accident;
Greg Langelius
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
Molecular level is the phrase I use with those I'm training, to help them understand that to shoot real good requires more than massaged ammunition, magnification, and a good rifle.
Most folks that have an interest in shooting come into it confusing executing the firing task with knowing how to shoot. Since they can intuitively send bullets down range with relatively good hits, on relatively big targets, at relatively close distances, when good hits don't come on relatively small targets, at mid range and longer, they think it's all about a need to better resolve aim with more magnification.
The first thing I want to do with these students is change their mind set, getting them to simply understand that if the bullet does not go exactly where aimed, it's not likely about magnification; but rather, about the shooter not maintaining aim. And, not maintaining aim until recoil subsides, is mostly to do with not having created a consistent shot to shot relationship between the gun and ground.
BTW, teaching folks how to shoot with peep sights helps them to realize good shooting only relates to magnification when a relationship between target and front sight cannot be established.
Molecular level is the phrase I use with those I'm training, to help them understand that to shoot real good requires more than massaged ammunition, magnification, and a good rifle.
Most folks that have an interest in shooting come into it confusing executing the firing task with knowing how to shoot. Since they can intuitively send bullets down range with relatively good hits, on relatively big targets, at relatively close distances, when good hits don't come on relatively small targets, at mid range and longer, they think it's all about a need to better resolve aim with more magnification.
The first thing I want to do with these students is change their mind set, getting them to simply understand that if the bullet does not go exactly where aimed, it's not likely about magnification; but rather, about the shooter not maintaining aim. And, not maintaining aim until recoil subsides, is mostly to do with not having created a consistent shot to shot relationship between the gun and ground.
BTW, teaching folks how to shoot with peep sights helps them to realize good shooting only relates to magnification when a relationship between target and front sight cannot be established.
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
Go to this thread, in the Sniper's Hide Advanced Marksmanship forum, for a gold mine of great info. It's one of the best resources here on the "Hide.
Fundamentals of Marksmanship thread
Go to this thread, in the Sniper's Hide Advanced Marksmanship forum, for a gold mine of great info. It's one of the best resources here on the "Hide.
Fundamentals of Marksmanship thread
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
Charles/Greg,
when can you move out west?
Charles/Greg,
when can you move out west?
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
Naahhh. Sorry. Honest...
But...
The original articles are at your disposal.
Just ask...
Greg.
PS ...and; my book, <span style="font-style: italic">Visions of Maggie's Drawers</span> has never been published...
Honestly, it needs an update and a rewrite; but that remains within the realm of the possible...
Way too wordy and redundant, the publisher/editor was right. I just never got my butt in gear to do the followup.
Writers are like that...
PPS ... Bob Heinlein was one of my very core role models...
Naahhh. Sorry. Honest...
But...
The original articles are at your disposal.
Just ask...
Greg.
PS ...and; my book, <span style="font-style: italic">Visions of Maggie's Drawers</span> has never been published...
Honestly, it needs an update and a rewrite; but that remains within the realm of the possible...
Way too wordy and redundant, the publisher/editor was right. I just never got my butt in gear to do the followup.
Writers are like that...
PPS ... Bob Heinlein was one of my very core role models...
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
Out of the Black and Into the Gray Areas.
Thank's Greg.
Just a bit much to quote, not read!
Out of the Black and Into the Gray Areas.
Thank's Greg.
Just a bit much to quote, not read!
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
Jacob at RO told us that if we broke a fire pin, because of dry firing, he would frame it and hang it in the bunk house. I have been trying every since.
Jacob at RO told us that if we broke a fire pin, because of dry firing, he would frame it and hang it in the bunk house. I have been trying every since.
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Charles/Greg,
when can you move out west?</div></div>
Thanks for the compliment. BTW, I think anyone can learn all there is to know about good shooting with about a day's worth of training, when the curriculum is focused on the principles of marksmanship and the elements and factors of a steady position. The USAMU's BRM curriculum is the best I've seen. Delivered by an instructor who can demonstrate, I think even a monkey could be taught how to become an extraordinary shooter.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Charles/Greg,
when can you move out west?</div></div>
Thanks for the compliment. BTW, I think anyone can learn all there is to know about good shooting with about a day's worth of training, when the curriculum is focused on the principles of marksmanship and the elements and factors of a steady position. The USAMU's BRM curriculum is the best I've seen. Delivered by an instructor who can demonstrate, I think even a monkey could be taught how to become an extraordinary shooter.
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
I'd suggest that (I'm sorry if I'm sounding like a broken record...) Charles is right again.
I think that instruction works best when the Student concentrates on mastering the tasks, rather than taking notes. Getting it right the first time has a high priority.
The Instructor should be filling this void with printed supplements that cover the course material with clarity and brevity, and provide reliable reference for post instructional review and practice.
Greg
I'd suggest that (I'm sorry if I'm sounding like a broken record...) Charles is right again.
I think that instruction works best when the Student concentrates on mastering the tasks, rather than taking notes. Getting it right the first time has a high priority.
The Instructor should be filling this void with printed supplements that cover the course material with clarity and brevity, and provide reliable reference for post instructional review and practice.
Greg
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
Short of signing on the dotted line, this monkey would like to learn. I am looking for the teachers to help.
Short of signing on the dotted line, this monkey would like to learn. I am looking for the teachers to help.
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
No instructor but here is a link to get started with:
http://www.usaac.army.mil/amu/ServiceRifle/servicerifle.html
Seekers
No instructor but here is a link to get started with:
http://www.usaac.army.mil/amu/ServiceRifle/servicerifle.html
Seekers
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
Thanks (kinda, sorta, well......) I am looking for that elusive help to move me forward.
Thanks (kinda, sorta, well......) I am looking for that elusive help to move me forward.
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
After downloading the files myself, I see that they weren't what I thought they were...
Sorry about that,
Seekers
After downloading the files myself, I see that they weren't what I thought they were...
Sorry about that,
Seekers
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
thanks for the try.
thanks for the try.
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Short of signing on the dotted line, this monkey would like to learn. I am looking for the teachers to help.</div></div>
I occasionally offer a one-on-one 6+ hour course modeled after the USAMU's BRM course which dissects just about every concept important to good shooting: principles of marksmanship, elements and factors of a steady position, ballistics, wind and weather effects, and shooter/target analysis. If you have any plans bringing you to Louisville, KY you might want to check into this course. For shooting clubs and groups, the course can be customized for delivery at your home range. PM me if you're interested. Oh, BTW, you'll need an M4/AR style rifle with BDC carry handle, as instruction is orientated to Service Rifle shooting.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Short of signing on the dotted line, this monkey would like to learn. I am looking for the teachers to help.</div></div>
I occasionally offer a one-on-one 6+ hour course modeled after the USAMU's BRM course which dissects just about every concept important to good shooting: principles of marksmanship, elements and factors of a steady position, ballistics, wind and weather effects, and shooter/target analysis. If you have any plans bringing you to Louisville, KY you might want to check into this course. For shooting clubs and groups, the course can be customized for delivery at your home range. PM me if you're interested. Oh, BTW, you'll need an M4/AR style rifle with BDC carry handle, as instruction is orientated to Service Rifle shooting.
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
Charles,
Any chance you are wandering out this way for Shot Show?
Charles,
Any chance you are wandering out this way for Shot Show?
Re: Dry firing your weapon???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Charles,
Any chance you are wandering out this way for Shot Show?</div></div>
Just fly into Louisville. I'll pick you up at the airport, train ya, and get you back to the airport after training.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Charles,
Any chance you are wandering out this way for Shot Show?</div></div>
Just fly into Louisville. I'll pick you up at the airport, train ya, and get you back to the airport after training.
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