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Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

JimGnitecki

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 24, 2011
561
12
Austin, TX
I have been less than happy using the normal type torque wrenches on firearm scope rings, scope bases, and barrel securement bolts (like on the LMT). Now I have found a GREAT solution thanks to a passing remark made by someone on the LMT thread: a mini torque wrench intended for use on delicate and small bicycle components.

The problems with "normal" torque wrenches are big.

They rarely come in the right torque range. Usually "inch pound" torque wrenches available at tool supply places work from a fairly high minimum setting, usually 25 in lb or so, to way too high a maximum setting, usually 200 in lb or so. This means that they can't be used on things like scope ring torn bolts - right where not applying too much torque is critical, but applying too little is inviting movement under recoil.

They also tend to be physically large, since they have to handle up to the maximum limit of 200 to 225 in lb. This physical size is accompanied by high weight. Both work against getting ACCURATE readings near the bottom end of the scale. Any experienced mechanic or gunsmith will know what I am talking about: the weight and size of the tool itself makes it very hard to apply a "pure" torque, and very hard to detect the click and movement at low torque settings.

Finally, they use a torque setting method that most enlightened people would call "stone age" - requiring you to peer at an engraved set of settings and tiny engraved print, locking and unlocking the wrench, relaxing it before storing each time, and no obvious indication when the darn thing is properly set OR relaxed.

Reently, someone mentioned a torque wrench, made in Italy, intended for use on high end, fragile bicycle racing components - things like alloy clamps on carbon fiber seat posts, for example. It is called "Effetto Mariposa" - Italian for something like "Correct Force". No nose in the air names here!

This wrench is alloy, except for key contact parts, and is therefore lightweight. It is also short - only about 6 inches long, because its working range is more tuned to bicycles, and as it turns out, firearms. It works in the range 2 to 16 Newton meters which equates to 18 to 140 in lb. The 18 in lb is just about right for scope ring torx bolts (16 would be ideal, but 18 is fine in practice), and the 140 in lb is right on for the LMT barrel to receiver torx bolts. In between, the available range covers the 65 in lb needed to secure most scope rails, and a host of other bolts and fasteners on firearms.

It's also refreshingly easy to use. It is mechanical, has a viewing window that CLEARLY displays the setting, shows you obviously if it is set or relaxed, and operates very understandably: screw a knob clockwise to increase torque and counterclockwise to decrease it.

Here's a photo:


EffettoMariposatorquewrench-close-up.jpg


and here's a photo that shows you the wrench in size comparison to both an LMT and the wrench that LMT ships with the rifle to handle those 2 small torx barrel bolts:

EffettoMariposatorquewrench-overall.jpg



Note also the storage box that the wrench comes in. It's very trick: the form is cut to prevent you placing the wrench back in for storage until the wrench has been relaxed! You cannot forget! This is a big plus, as leaving any torque wrench "set" to anything above a really minimal level hurts its accuracy over time and repetition.

Note that for travel to matches, hunting trips, etc, the wrench itself, with only the red rubber strip of tool heads, all easily fit into an accessory compartment magazine-sized or smaller, or with your cleaning kit, for convenient transport and ready availability when needed.

So: small, accurate (every bit as accurate as a "regular" torque wrench), light, easier to use, more accurate to use due to being the right size and weight for the job.

SUPER product.

The price may strike you as "high" if you have not priced GOOD torque wrenches lately, but at $185, INCLUDING the tool heads, it's properly priced to eb competitive.

If oyu have reservations, ask yourself: If I strip those LMT barrel bolt threads, or those Nightforce ring cap bolts, or those tiny rail base screws, how much money will it cost me to replace the affected parts (like the receiver on the LMT, for example).

I didn't like coughing up the money, but I did. Glad I did now that I have one.

Jim G
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

Jim,

Have you seen the Borka wrench? It has the full range of torques one might need for firearm maintenance, and in fact is designed for that purpose. It is also very light and relatively inexpensive.

Also, no conversion necessary from those silly metric NM's
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yasherka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jim,

Have you seen the Borka wrench? It has the full range of torques one might need for firearm maintenance, and in fact is designed for that purpose. It is also very light and relatively inexpensive.

Also, no conversion necessary from those silly metric NM's </div></div>

1. Borka does not make torque WRENCHES. They make torque DRIVERS. There is a difference.

2. Borka says right on its website their products come from Taiwan.

3. The price advantage over the Effetto Mariposa is not that big.

4. Compare the 2 products CLOSELY for quality. The Effetto Mariposa is used on $5000 bicycles with costly and fragile individual components.
smile.gif


Jim G
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

Borka is good as a backup or field wrench, but I bought a nice CDI 0-75 inch pound dial wrench. Gives me exactly what I need, I can go to any torque setting (unlike Borka).
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JimGnitecki</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yasherka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jim,

Have you seen the Borka wrench? It has the full range of torques one might need for firearm maintenance, and in fact is designed for that purpose. It is also very light and relatively inexpensive.

Also, no conversion necessary from those silly metric NM's </div></div>

1. Borka does not make torque WRENCHES. They make torque DRIVERS. There is a difference.

2. Borka says right on its website their products come from Taiwan.

3. The price advantage over the Effetto Mariposa is not that big.

4. Compare the 2 products CLOSELY for quality. The Effetto Mariposa is used on $5000 bicycles with costly and fragile individual components.
smile.gif


Jim G </div></div>

Jim,

Borka multi torque driver (MTD-15x72-12FS-MG), which is included in every kit, is made <span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">in the U.S.A</span></span>. It is clearly indicated on related page of my website, in the user guide and on the driver itself.

Borka adjustable torque screwdriver, ATD-10x80-CRS, which is no longer available, was imported from Taiwan.

Yasherka was refering to MTD.

Borka torque drivers are known to be used on $10000 rifles.

If you care to explain the FUNCTIONAL difference between the torque driver and the torque wrench, I would be very excited to learn. If I change the name from "torque driver" to "torque wrench", will it work any better?


Boris
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

I did not know the one model was U.S.made, and I'm not going to try to convert you.

You use your Borka's if you like them, and I'll use my Effetto Mariposa.
smile.gif


Jim G
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

I'll stick with the Borka Driver. I have a full set of tools in a massive rolling box. I find myself using the Borka Driver most of the time I am working on rifles. While the rifles I work on are less expensive than most racing bicycles, they serve a much more serious purpose.

However its nice to hear about other options so we can still make educated choices.
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
JimGnitecki said:
Yasherka said:
Jim,

If you care to explain the FUNCTIONAL difference between the torque driver and the torque wrench, I would be very excited to learn. If I change the name from "torque driver" to "torque wrench", will it work any better?


Boris
</div></div>
kortik said:
JimGnitecki said:
Yasherka said:
I still want to hear the difference....I am confused

-K
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JimGnitecki</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did not know the one model was U.S.made, and I'm not going to try to convert you.

You use your Borka's if you like them, and I'll use my Effetto Mariposa.
smile.gif


Jim G </div></div>

Jim,

I don't believe you can convert me, I'm the manufacturer of Borka torque drivers, and all of them are made in the U.S.A., specifically in MI, except for precision springs, which come from Rockford Spring Co in IL, and stainless steel fasteners and balls, which are typically purchased from McMaster Carr.

Boris

Borka Tools
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevlars</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
kortik said:
JimGnitecki said:
Yasherka said:
Jim,

If you care to explain the FUNCTIONAL difference between the torque driver and the torque wrench, I would be very excited to learn. If I change the name from "torque driver" to "torque wrench", will it work any better?


Boris
</div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
JimGnitecki said:
Yasherka said:
I still want to hear the difference....I am confused

-K </div></div>

The Borka tools I have seen are used like a screwdriver, versus like a wrench. That makes them harder to use accurately, especially on higher torque tightening, because you need to twist your wrist, and because a signficiantly shorter movement rnage is used. If you do the ergonomic and physics analysis, you will see what I mean.

Jim G
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JimGnitecki</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did not know the one model was U.S.made, and I'm not going to try to convert you.

You use your Borka's if you like them, and I'll use my Effetto Mariposa.
smile.gif


Jim G </div></div>

Jim,

I don't believe you can convert me, I'm the manufacturer of Borka torque drivers, and all of them are made in the U.S.A., specifically in MI, except for precision springs, which come from Rockford Spring Co in IL, and stainless steel fasteners and balls, which are typically purchased from McMaster Carr.

Boris

Borka Tools
</div></div>

Brois: The LAST time I checked your website, it said Borka tools come from Taiwan. Have you changed recently? I would not have said they came from Taiwan unless I saw it, as I had no reason to think so until I saw the website. Looking today, it looks like you have changed the website between my last visit and now.

There isn't more than one Borka tool company, is there?

Jim G
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

You have seen ATD screwdriver, which is used in the same manner as any other adjustable torque screwdriver, for example, Wheeler or Weaver or CDI. ATD is old news, I do not sell them any more. I manufacture and sell MTD (multi torque driver), aka MG torque driver, which does not operate in the manner described above.

From the techical point of view, I would not recommend this bycicle tool you've posted about for anybody who cares about accuracy. It has the smallest window scale I've even seen, and the length of available sping cmpression is the shortest used in mechanical type adjustable torque tools. As any mechanical engineer, or even a person somewhat familiar with basics of mechanics, knows, the shorter the length of the spring, the more difficult it is to obtain an accurate spring loading within a certain length of compression. In other words, Mariposa, by design, has pretty low "resolution" when it comes to dialing in the desired torque. But I'm glad you're happy with your tool, and wish you the best.

 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

Ok ... so it appears that you have dated information. I have looked at the Effetto Mariposa and honestly between the two I would rather have the Borka tool in the field.

and to be clear here is the website Borka

Simpler design more suited to what we do. IE less moving parts.

-K
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

I just found the webpage that I ahd seen, and the product shown here in the photo on the left is the Borka driver I was shown by a friend who had one:

http://borkatools.com/pages/atd644b/atd644b.html

This one WAS made in Taiwan, per the Borka webpage referenced above.

However, it looks like Borka has a different series that has a handel with multiple "hole positions" to accept a head, and a click handle. Is this the one you guys are talking about?

If so, I like that one, but don't like the fact that on hole positions other than the end one, you have lever arm sticking out past the bolt being tightened, opposite the handle side. That is often not feasible, due to running into soemhting else on the firearm with that protruding end.

Neat diferent approach though.

Looks larger than the Effetto mariposa though. What are the dimensions?

Jim G
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

5 3/4" x 3/4" x 3/4", weight is 3.9 ounces with the spindle attached.

"Sticking out" driver arm was not not reported to be an issue by any one of actual users. You're the first one to mention this, but you do not have Borka, so I'm not sure if I need to agree with you.

What are the dimensions of weight of your torque tool?



 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From the techical point of view, I would not recommend this bycicle tool you've posted about for anybody who cares about accuracy. It has the smallest window scale I've even seen, and the length of available sping cmpression is the shortest used in mechanical type adjustable torque tools. As any mechanical engineer, or even a person somewhat familiar with basics of mechanics, knows, the shorter the length of the spring, the more difficult it is to obtain an accurate spring loading within a certain length of compression. In other words, Mariposa, by design, has pretty low "resolution" when it comes to dialing in the desired torque.

</div></div>

If this was so, some of the trigger or hammer or other springs in firearms, including striker fired ones, would be impossibly inconsistent! Springs in those can be awfully tiny. The RATIO of spring length to spring diameter and wire diameter used, and the overall quality controls in place, are more signficant. Remember, a good bicycle torque wrench has to be able to, for example, tighten a super lightweight easily wreckable seat clamp onto an exquisitely thin carbon fiber seat post, without harming either item. Everything on a good racing bicycle is light and fragile to get the weight down to ridiculously low levels.

But I am not saying your tools are not good.
smile.gif


Jim G
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JimGnitecki</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From the techical point of view, I would not recommend this bycicle tool you've posted about for anybody who cares about accuracy. It has the smallest window scale I've even seen, and the length of available sping cmpression is the shortest used in mechanical type adjustable torque tools. As any mechanical engineer, or even a person somewhat familiar with basics of mechanics, knows, the shorter the length of the spring, the more difficult it is to obtain an accurate spring loading within a certain length of compression. In other words, Mariposa, by design, has pretty low "resolution" when it comes to dialing in the desired torque.

</div></div>

If this was so, some of the trigger or hammer or other springs in firearms, including striker fired ones, would be impossibly inconsistent! Springs in those can be awfully tiny. The RATIO of spring length to spring diameter and wire diameter used, and the overall quality controls in place, are more signficant. Remember, a good bicycle torque wrench has to be able to, for example, tighten a super lightweight easily wreckable seat clamp onto an exquisitely thin carbon fiber seat post, without harming either item. Everything on a good racing bicycle is light and fragile to get the weight down to ridiculously low levels.

But I am not saying your tools are not good.
smile.gif


Jim G </div></div>

Jim,

You do not need to take my word as absolute truth. Just call some spring manufacturer, and ask them. They know better than all of us here. They will tell you, just by looking at the avaialble length of spring compression in your torque tool, what you may expect. Remember, spring in torque tool is not the spring in the firing pin, it needs to have a very accurate and consistent load/compression characteristics. Rockford Spring in IL is one of the best places to call to get educated on this subject. They also have lots of good reference info on their website. In short, I think you'll be a bit of surpised to learn that if you want a relatively accurate adjustable torque tool of mechanical type, be it a screwdriver or wrench, you need to go with the one that has the biggest (longest) window scale and the longest spring inside. Longer spring, or spring with longer compression range, suffers from less error per unit of compression length than the shorter one. Borka tool does not have this issue, as it is a pre-set tool with multiple settings, provided by geometry of the driver arm. Spring is actually pre-set to specifc force, and no spring adjustment is neccesary.

I'm not saying your tool is bad, and as I mentioned, if it works for you, we're all happy.
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

I use Craftsman tools from Sears. my mom bought them for me for Christmas last year. but i would like to try a Borka
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

$185 for a torque wrench, driver, moment-arm?

Jesus guys. The scope isn't going to give a damn if the screws are torqued to +/-3 inch pounds.

And before asking myself how much it would cost to replace stripped screws, I need to ask myself what kind of crappy screw would strip if I go 5 inch pounds over target?
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

There are two kinds of salesmen on this site. Those who found a need, came up with an idea, perfected a process, and then stood behind their product. In doing so, they naturally supported the sight that supported them.

And then there are the other ones. Those who think they found a gadget or a niche and will yell and scream and expound about their solution to which there really are no problems.

And then, will tell you and tell you and tell you about how great this is while at the same time rant about how 'bad' that is, and do all this while pretending to be your friend.

Put your money where your mouth is, Carpetbagger.
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sean the Nailer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are two kinds of salesmen on this site. Those who found a need, came up with an idea, perfected a process, and then stood behind their product. In doing so, they naturally supported the sight that supported them.

And then there are the other ones. Those who think they found a gadget or a niche and will yell and scream and expound about their solution to which there really are no problems.

And then, will tell you and tell you and tell you about how great this is while at the same time rant about how 'bad' that is, and do all this while pretending to be your friend.

Put your money where your mouth is, Carpetbagger. </div></div>

A little harsh, and the "carpetbagger" namecalling is just plain rude. But everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Bear in mind that I, the original poster, am not selling any torque wrenches, so I have no vested interest. I do let others know when I think I have found somethign that may be useful to others, because I really appreciate when others do the same. I ahve some really worthwhile solutions in what others have posted over time.

And, I HAVE put my money where my mouth is. I bought what I have descirbed in this posting.

I was also unaware of Borka being a site sponsor. Is it? I haven't noticed their name here. If so, I probably would have noted in my original posting, out of courtesy, that we have a site sponsor who make a product that looks good and is more reasonably priced than the one I am posting about, because I do appreciate the site sponsors. Having been a small business owner a few tiems in the past, I know the value of unsolicited and unpaid product testimonials.

Sorry if my posting ruffled anyone's feathers. That certainly wasn't the intent.

Jim G
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

Jim, "kortik" Boris is a site sponsor here. I am not familiar at all with the product you speak of. But I have and am familiar with Boris' products and they do an excellent job for me.

Cheers!!
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

Boris: I did not realzie you were a site sponsor. I appreciate the sponsorship greatly, and you are correct in pointing out that you have a product intended for this need and market. I feel badly now having posted about a product that competes with that of a site sponsor. I really just did not know.

Jim G
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

Jim,

The product you posted about does not really compete with my product, except, may be, in size. You did the right thing by sharing your experiences and your review was certainly interesting, and, I'm sure, usefull for SH members.

The reason I've felt it was O.K. for me to reply is because you incorrectly stated a couple of things, like where my product is made and level of quality relative to Mariposa, based on your very limited, in all honesty, knowledge of my product line, and also, initated comparison of your tool with Borka, without, again, having sufficient knownledge of primary techical details related to Borka MTD design, referenced by Yasherka.

You're O.K., we do not have problem at all, just be prepared next time to run into dealing with technicalities of the subject. Remember, even one post with inaccurate info may cause confusion and, as the result, hurt business.

Best to you,

Boris

 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

I appreciate your gracious approach, Boris. Thanks.

Jim G
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

Jim G - I think the Borka kit is a little more field worthy & rugged than the Effetto Mariposa from what I've seen, but it's great to hear about the different options available.

I use a 1/4" Snap-On torque wrench at home, and use 'finger tight + 90 degrees' in the field. I have only stripped a thread once, and that was in very cold weather, wearing thick gloves, and a bit over enthusiastic while torquing down an aluminum ring cap.

No one should be castigated for their choices, and you have no reason to apologize.
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They rarely come in the right torque range. Usually "inch pound" torque wrenches available at tool supply places work from a fairly high minimum setting, usually 25 in lb or so, to way too high a maximum setting, usually 200 in lb or so. This means that they can't be used on things like scope ring torn bolts - right where not applying too much torque is critical, but applying too little is inviting movement under recoil. </div></div>

Kinda of confused about this statement. I have used "normal" torque wrenches that are 0-15,0-30, and 0-75 in/lbs among others. Aside from being large for firearms work I don't see the issue, maybe expense for snap on/blue point. I have no experience with the OPs product or the Borka, but I know for a solid fact I saw a Kobalt torque wrench at the Home Despot last week that was 0-75in lbs (probabl a +/- 4) which puts it well inside the "useful" range.
It certainly not as mobile as a Borka, but it's also useful. YMMV.
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grimm</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They rarely come in the right torque range. Usually "inch pound" torque wrenches available at tool supply places work from a fairly high minimum setting, usually 25 in lb or so, to way too high a maximum setting, usually 200 in lb or so. This means that they can't be used on things like scope ring torn bolts - right where not applying too much torque is critical, but applying too little is inviting movement under recoil. </div></div>

Kinda of confused about this statement. I have used "normal" torque wrenches that are 0-15,0-30, and 0-75 in/lbs among others. Aside from being large for firearms work I don't see the issue, maybe expense for snap on/blue point. I have no experience with the OPs product or the Borka, but I know for a solid fact I saw a Kobalt torque wrench at the Home Despot last week that was 0-75in lbs (probabl a +/- 4) which puts it well inside the "useful" range.
It certainly not as mobile as a Borka, but it's also useful. YMMV. </div></div>

I actually tried several times to find a torque wrench in a suitable torque working range and physical size both locally and online, and Google never brought up that Kobalt one at all (and you didn't emntion the size). My friend who runs a custom car and car restoration business showed me a torque wrench Saturday that he got a long time ago that was in the 75 in lb rnage, but it was larger, could not handle the 140 in lb requirement for the LMT barrel bolts, and was not rated to go anywhere near zero (don't assume a torque wrench rated for "x" in lb has a zero to "x" range. They usually do not. The markings in fact usually stop at some number well above zero to make that clear. My Craftsman one, rated for 200 or 225 in lb (I forget which now), wasn't marked at all below 25 in lb. I think the idea is that at the lowest settings, the accuracy startes to be questionable. The Borka wrench with the multiple holes may be a good way of getting aorund that specific problem, but I don't know enough about the Borka to say that for sure. The general claims I've seen for accuracy on torque wrneches is that they are within 4%, but I think that means when used in their intended setting range (not down to near zero), and only generally in the "right hand tightening" direction (not for left hand thread fasteners nor for reliably loosening a fasteerner to a lower setting).

The size and weight thing is really important to getting accurate torque results. When the wrench size and weight dwarf the fastener too much, you are not getting good accuracy because the tool weight and size interfere with proper 90 degree placement and rotation, and with sensitivity.

Just be thankful that firearms makers and firearms accessory makers are not yet doing what the auto manufactuers starting doing some time back: specifying "torque-to-yield" techniques that require you to torque to a very specific setting and then rotate the fastener an additonal number of specified degrees! THAT is really hard to do when the wrench is too big and/or too heavy for the specific job. And, the fasteners must be replaced each time they are removed.

My friend at the custom car shop also told em that there is a push for electronic wrenches coupled with torque-to-yield. He does not trust those, at least yet.
smile.gif
he is not aware of the internal technologies in the electronic ones. I suspect some sort of strain gage? In theory, these SHOULD be accurate (think RCBS Chargemaster for a weigh scale / dispenser equivalent). I wonder though if even if they are accurate, how much field abuse they could handle outside a garage, but then a red dot sight CAN take quite a bit I'm told if it's a GOOD one.

Jim G
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

I already stated earlier that Borka is a great on the field product. Since I already work a lot on different cars and bikes, I already had a CDI dial wrench for inch pounds. CDI makes all the torque wrenches for snap-on. I also like the fact that I can have them re calibrated at any time. Its definitely a little big to bring in the shooting bag, but I usually do as many members at my club have come to need it. Below is just a link to the several versions they make.

Don't get me wrong, I am about ready to pull the trigger on a Borka set as it is WAY smaller to lug around, too bad I missed the Christmas special Boris had going. Hopefully he does another one as I will be all over that.
smile.gif


http://www.industrialsupplydenver.com/cditowrdiin72.html
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

So how many uses is the Borka or Effetto Mariposa factory calibration good for before a recommended calibration check? I've only used products from Utica and Seekonk in the past but eventually I'd like to pick up a few torque wrenches to dedicate for individual rifles. Some folks feel the prices can be outlandish but good tools are worth paying for if you need the ability or longevity (or simply want them). I have $400 Mitutoyo calipers and a $1100 Etalon 0-1" micrometer but I use them for a living and have full confidence in them despite the seemingly outlandish prices. But if you don't want or need it, there are usually plenty of products at various price points. The more products we get, the more competition and innovation we'll see.
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cesiumsponge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So how many uses is the Borka or Effetto Mariposa factory calibration good for before a recommended calibration check? I've only used products from Utica and Seekonk in the past but eventually I'd like to pick up a few torque wrenches to dedicate for individual rifles. Some folks feel the prices can be outlandish but good tools are worth paying for if you need the ability or longevity (or simply want them). I have $400 Mitutoyo calipers and a $1100 Etalon 0-1" micrometer but I use them for a living and have full confidence in them despite the seemingly outlandish prices. But if you don't want or need it, there are usually plenty of products at various price points. The more products we get, the more competition and innovation we'll see. </div></div>

I cannot remember the exact number of cycles it is good for before calibration, and don;t have the wrench literature here in front of me, but it was something like 4000 or 5000 cycles. I remember thinking it would be many, many years for me.

Jim G
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sean the Nailer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OOooooooooOOOOOHHHHboy, this again.

Gimme a minutes, I'm gonna do a 'search' to find other thread(s) that spoke of this exact issue.


I'll be back..... ok, here I are and I found some. Check them out:

does this help?

or this????

Maybe you'd like this?

What the hell, maybe you want to read this too? </div></div>

Sean the Nailer: I'm not sure what lit your fuse, but for goodness sake, ease up. If you don't find the topic worthwhile, ignore it! No one expects you to read and comment on EVERY posting on the forum. Don't give your self an ulcer over any one thread.
smile.gif


Jim G
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

Jim G

Get over yourself AND stop jumping to conclusions. I am VERY FAR from commenting on every thread in this forum or any other. I've no ulcer from any thread here, let alone all.

Do you think you're the first one to arrive here with what you thought is the 'latest and greatest'? The manner in which you expand and expound your 'wares' is definitely on the "transparent" end of things.

I, as well as many others, will suggest that you look around here. Obviously, you will be surprised at what is available here for equipment, training, expertise, and support. Not saying you won't fit in, but I am saying that your company would be better welcomed from a "humble'r" perspective.

I'm not saying that you DO have connections and/or interests in this torque-wrench you are advertising here. But I definitely AM saying that you are sure acting as though you do. Ergo, such being the case, you are stepping on others toes here. Most if not all of these others are TOO GENTLEMANLY to comment on such, or bring it up.

I don't have any problems calling a spade a 'shovel'. I also have no problems admitting I'm not perfect nor faultless. In this case, when dealing with firearms, this tool of Boris' really IS the cat's-ass.

Do a search on it, and see for yourself just how many others here like the tool, and now use it instead of Seekonk, Wheeler, Snap-Off, Craftsman, Beam-style wrenches, and many others.

Point is, by doing even the most elementary of searches, you'd find that this is a topic that has been beaten to death, drove over, dug back up and heart transplanted. You're telling us here, something that almost all of us know better.

And again, the suggested 'search' would also enlighten you of the fact that you're not the first one to do the exact same with the exact topic. Granted, you have a 'new' torque-wrench to add to the mix, but it is still outshined by Boris' tool.

Or so most of us believe. We tend to leave the Satellite Aimed, Laser-Guided, Turbo-Charged, Floor-Mounted-Units at home in the garage as the Borka wrench is more compact.

Please tell me you've seen the humor and satire embedded in the above.
wink.gif


Have a Great day!
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cesiumsponge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So how many uses is the Borka or Effetto Mariposa factory calibration good for before a recommended calibration check? I've only used products from Utica and Seekonk in the past but eventually I'd like to pick up a few torque wrenches to dedicate for individual rifles. Some folks feel the prices can be outlandish but good tools are worth paying for if you need the ability or longevity (or simply want them). I have $400 Mitutoyo calipers and a $1100 Etalon 0-1" micrometer but I use them for a living and have full confidence in them despite the seemingly outlandish prices. But if you don't want or need it, there are usually plenty of products at various price points. The more products we get, the more competition and innovation we'll see. </div></div>

Sean was kind enough to compile several links to some threads which were discussing this question before:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...rue#Post3170314

In short, I've tested MG driver to 22,000 cycles, change in torque output was under 2%, which is perfectly O.K., and estimated 50,000 cycles before re-calibration is recommended to stay within +/-4%. I would also check the torque driver in 15 years since the date of production, springs do have tendency to relax a bit with time if kept under static compression. Some charts suggest that spring can loose about 5% of spring rate in 15 years, which is still not likely to be an issue, as far as I'm concerned, cause I set the driver at +3% torque output over the nominal torque value.

I use very good quality springs, custom made by Rockford Spring Co (IL), so they should keep working with no issues for a considerable period of time.

In reality, you need to do all fasteners on a couple of thousand of scoped rifles before being concerned about loosing some accuracy. That would be an exception rather then rule for vast majority of individual users. Of course, following the preventive maintenance procedure, included in the user guide (and also posted on my website) is recommended to keep Borka torque driver in good shape.

Preventive Maintenance Procedure

I would also share what I've learned about calibration/re-calibration of mechanical type ADJUSTABLE torque tools - these tools, by design, CAN NOT be calibrated for the WHOLE RANGE of torque settings. They can be checked for accuracy at different settings (and I was checking out every one of Borka ATD-10x80-CRS adjustable torque screwdrivers prior to sale) to validate compliance to the accuracy standards, but they can only be calibrated for a selected, single setting somewhere inside the range of all torque settings, say, in the middle of the range. The accuracy of all other torque settings, below and above this one setting chosen for calibration, depends upon linearity characteristics and overall precision and quality of the spring itself. Per industry sources, compression springs may have noticable deviation in linearity below 15% and above 85% of the allowable load. Because of this, adjustable torque tools of mechanical type having range from zero to something, say, from 0 to 75 inch-lbs., are not likely to be accurate at all close to 0, but should work O.K., if designed and built with care, I would expect, in the range above 10 and below 70 inch-lbs., possibly even up to maximum of 75 if spring is not being loaded above estimated 85% at this 75 inch-lbs. setting.
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

Great information to have, Kortik. Appreciate it.

Jim G
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

Any Interest in a Borka Tool Group Buy? If so, I'm in!!!

Looks like it would be perfact for the field and anywhere else I would find myself!
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

Thank you for the information, Boris. Basically this boils down to a tool that won't be worn out by anyone but someone that uses one for a living. I have a further question. How sealed are the internals from foreign debris ingress? I know this isn't a typical requirement on torque devices but the design is compact and looks rugged and simplified in construction and parts, and it would be something I think folks would like to keep in the rifle bag without worrying about dirt gumming it up. If so, can the end user clean it without buggering the calibrated values?
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cesiumsponge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you for the information, Boris. Basically this boils down to a tool that won't be worn out by anyone but someone that uses one for a living. I have a further question. How sealed are the internals from foreign debris ingress? I know this isn't a typical requirement on torque devices but the design is compact and looks rugged and simplified in construction and parts, and it would be something I think folks would like to keep in the rifle bag without worrying about dirt gumming it up. If so, can the end user clean it without buggering the calibrated values? </div></div>

You could simply put it inside a breathable cloth bag before placing it inside a rifle case. Thatw oudl keep dust and grit out, but allow air so it wouldn't corrode due to lack of air circulation.

Jim G
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cesiumsponge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you for the information, Boris. Basically this boils down to a tool that won't be worn out by anyone but someone that uses one for a living. I have a further question. How sealed are the internals from foreign debris ingress? I know this isn't a typical requirement on torque devices but the design is compact and looks rugged and simplified in construction and parts, and it would be something I think folks would like to keep in the rifle bag without worrying about dirt gumming it up. If so, can the end user clean it without buggering the calibrated values? </div></div>

Excellent question.

1. When torque driver is packaged into the pouch or in steel case, like MG9, chances of it getting dirty are really small, actually, for all practical purposes, there are no chances of contamination. If there is no pouch, just put it into some kind of bag, as suggested by JimGnitecki.

2. If torque driver is dropped in the mud or very fine sand, and if torque driver is in "locked" position (driver arm and handle are in line), do not "break" the handle over until you remove foreign debris from the both sides of the slot formed in a handle to accomodate driver arm. The best way to remove it is to put the driver into a small can of petrolium based cleaner, like kerosine or gasoline, and shake it there, or spray into the slot from the can of WD-40 or something like that, or use brush, then, desirably, blow some compressed air into the slot from both sides, then perform Preventive Maintenance Procedure.

By design, when torque driver is in "locked" position, its internals are pretty much sealed by the cap at the end of the handle and by the locking ball from the other end. This is not a perfect seal, but it will pretty much keep anything bigger than 0.002" from getting inside. When the torque driver breaks over, this "ball seal" opens up a bit and can draw small particles of foreign matter inside when driver is reset to "locked" position. So, it is important not to function driver if it gets real dirty with very fine sand or mud until it is cleaned as described above.

3. If torque driver is dropped into the water, cycle it 20-30 times, allowing the water to drip from inside of the handle, then spray WD-40 into the slot area on both sides and cycle it again 20-30 times. Wipe excess of WD-40 on the outside, do Preventive Maintennce Procedure and it should be good to go. If water was salty, rinse it in normal, not salty water, then do the same.

I've analyzed different failure modes related to comtamination and concluded that this design without the use of special seals or bellows will perform reliably except for a very few extreme cases of contamination, which typical user will likely not going to experience. In any case, implementation of "sealing countermeasures" for this design would be expensive, and I do not believe that related price increase will be welcomed by the customers. Also, additional rubber seals and bellows may also fail and cause additional issues.

So, it's all about common sense and the balance between total perfection and practicality.

So far, I had zero complains related to issues caused by contamination. Obviously, my customers are either taking good care of Borka tool or keep it in a way that reduces chances of contamination.

If, God forbid, somebody does manage to fill the inside of the tool with some nasty stuff, there is a simple solution - just send the driver back to Borka, I'll clean it up, replace spring and locking ball, calibrate the driver and send it back. Should cost pbobably $30-35, including return shipping.

And of course, I got to mention that complete or partial disassembly of the torque driver by the user for any purposes, including cleaning, will void waranty, and very likely, will not allow the user to return the tool fully to original, calibrated condition.

Boris
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JimGnitecki</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevlars</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
kortik said:
JimGnitecki said:
Yasherka said:
Jim,

If you care to explain the FUNCTIONAL difference between the torque driver and the torque wrench, I would be very excited to learn. If I change the name from "torque driver" to "torque wrench", will it work any better?


Boris
</div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
JimGnitecki said:
Yasherka said:
I still want to hear the difference....I am confused

-K </div></div>

The Borka tools I have seen are used like a screwdriver, versus like a wrench. That makes them harder to use accurately, especially on higher torque tightening, because you need to twist your wrist, and because a signficiantly shorter movement rnage is used. If you do the ergonomic and physics analysis, you will see what I mean.

Jim G </div></div>

Perhaps you should look at the other borka tools.

As I have bikes that cost more than my rifles, and some pretty damn expensive rifles, the Borka is top kit - Far above those lowly 'park' tools professional mechanics use.
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Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

I never leave home without my Borka Driver in the pouch... I have the TAB pouch in ATAC that is in my case and works time after time, even with me changing scopes on a weekly basis.

The Borka IS the tool of choice... nothing I have used comes close or is as convenient to work with.
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

Thanks Boris, I love engineers. Factual, to-the-point answers
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I live in western Washington which is known for it's wet weather. If you're outside, chances are it's raining and muddy. I don't plan to remove and reinstall stuff in the field but it's good to know the tool is up to the job and a little water, dirt and grime requires minimal work to restore the tool to an operational condition. I'm not a guy that keeps all his tools in pristine clean condition, including my firearms so I appreciate your insight into the finer workings of the mechanism.

Zak Smith has noted in the past that rifles with very tight tolerances such as custom jobbers tend to gum up in southwestern conditions like Steel Safari and that always stuck with me when thinking tight tolerance, precision devices with exposed mechanisms. Ultralight hiking is the mentality I try to stick to so I tend to minimize cases and packs and weight where possible. When I order one, I'll just throw it in something like an Aloksak waterproof plastic bag inside my rifle case.

Also I completely hijacked this thread. Sorry!
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cesiumsponge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Also I completely hijacked this thread. Sorry! </div></div>

That's ok. I was getting tired of the repeated beatings anyway.
smile.gif


Jim G
 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I never leave home without my Borka Driver in the pouch... I have the TAB pouch in ATAC that is in my case and works time after time, even with me changing scopes on a weekly basis.

The Borka IS the tool of choice... nothing I have used comes close or is as convenient to work with. </div></div>

Frank, thank you and I'm glad it works for you. BTW, if you use it very often, it may be a good idea sometime in the future to perform Preventive Maintenance Procedure, just in case...

Preventive Maintenance Procedure

Now I hijacked this thread, bad, bad Boris...


 
Re: Effetto Mariposa - GREAT torque wrench for firarms

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I never leave home without my Borka Driver in the pouch... I have the TAB pouch in ATAC that is in my case and works time after time, even with me changing scopes on a weekly basis.

The Borka IS the tool of choice... nothing I have used comes close or is as convenient to work with. </div></div>

Mine also... Saved my ass at the last match! I had loose rings while zeroing.