- Thread starter Jeeper48
- Start date
Looking forward to seeing more about this
Wondering:
- long spire tips effect on feeding
- Spire tips are an advantage ballistically for supersonic flight but not for subsonic. Is this round supposed to go and stay supersonic for an extended period of time?
- What will the effect on cleaning intervals be switching from waxed lead to copper. Match .22's typically go many hundreds of rounds between cleanings with no ill effect using waxed lead projectiles. It's one of the things I love about them.
- A lower density turned bullet will yield higher initial velocity but you are still going to be near the sound barrier. How many yards could you conceivably keep above it? That transition back past is a bitch and is actually worse for things that are lighter as well as longer and thinner. On paper this looks to present a significant challenge to the design.
- Trying to boost .22lr pressures is actually a bit tricky as you have to be able to crush the weakest part of the case for ignition and still not have a case head failure. I have experienced plenty of case head failures with high pressure .22lr ammo even at their current, barely supersonic at 100yds level.
So...... I'm curious how they intend to tackle all the intrinsic design difficulties.
- long spire tips effect on feeding
- Spire tips are an advantage ballistically for supersonic flight but not for subsonic. Is this round supposed to go and stay supersonic for an extended period of time?
- What will the effect on cleaning intervals be switching from waxed lead to copper. Match .22's typically go many hundreds of rounds between cleanings with no ill effect using waxed lead projectiles. It's one of the things I love about them.
- A lower density turned bullet will yield higher initial velocity but you are still going to be near the sound barrier. How many yards could you conceivably keep above it? That transition back past is a bitch and is actually worse for things that are lighter as well as longer and thinner. On paper this looks to present a significant challenge to the design.
- Trying to boost .22lr pressures is actually a bit tricky as you have to be able to crush the weakest part of the case for ignition and still not have a case head failure. I have experienced plenty of case head failures with high pressure .22lr ammo even at their current, barely supersonic at 100yds level.
So...... I'm curious how they intend to tackle all the intrinsic design difficulties.
Wonder what the weight will be? Maybe they could make a 77gr 22mag subsonic load............
Would be nice to know how the case grabs it, heeled?
Would be nice to know how the case grabs it, heeled?
I believe it’s a 25gr bullet.
I need to go back by and get educated a bit more. The quick speal I heard didn’t peak my interest too much.
I need to go back by and get educated a bit more. The quick speal I heard didn’t peak my interest too much.
Basically, these were/are all my concerns that I didn’t get immediate answers to.
The speed I was quoted was very close to supersonic at sea level. Too close for me to feel comfortable.
Exactly what I was thinking...
I am very happy and excited to see all this interest in the rimfire world and more specific the 22lr world. I truly love the challenge of making that little caliber do something most think it can’t do. However IMO if you introduce a drastically new design of bullet (like in this thread) that is substantially lighter or heavier and start pushing them as hard as you can for the case capacity then for me the game has changed & I’m not interested at that point. What I am wanting to see is more quality control in the current 22lr configuration, like better priming compounds for a more controlled ignition, more precise powder metering from round to round, maybe even new powder development for more consistency. But absolutely keeping with the round nose / EPS (or similar) 40 grain bullet at around 1040-1080 FPS, because that is the challenge that makes this game fun!
This isn’t to take away from this thread, Cutting Edge’s bullets or anything like that. It’s just me talking out loud...
I get what your saying but that’s complesance I’m in a field that wasn’t developed since it’s creation.
everything we know or think we know is based on an old concept designed for short range application. Bullet and every component are made in consequence.
Now come innovation and your reaction is normal but you need to understand than it’s predominantly a project for ELR that will require twist not yet available in 22RF. Later CE said they will make ammo for the commercial twist.
Bullet will be lighter as it’s copper and speed will go with it. Now since bullet won’t be of the same nature we wont probably see the same limitation and issues with engagement past 100 yards and with current ammo w/ supersonic-Transonic speeds.
Other than that a simple improvement in B.C and flight characteristics will be an improvement in a field where noting was done since forever.
everything we know or think we know is based on an old concept designed for short range application. Bullet and every component are made in consequence.
Now come innovation and your reaction is normal but you need to understand than it’s predominantly a project for ELR that will require twist not yet available in 22RF. Later CE said they will make ammo for the commercial twist.
Bullet will be lighter as it’s copper and speed will go with it. Now since bullet won’t be of the same nature we wont probably see the same limitation and issues with engagement past 100 yards and with current ammo w/ supersonic-Transonic speeds.
Other than that a simple improvement in B.C and flight characteristics will be an improvement in a field where noting was done since forever.
I have always wondered why they don’t make a lead Bullets with a higher BC. I mean just make it shaped different with the same speed should still put out a greater advantage then the rounded bullet.
I see this almost as a novelty. Your gonna be paying more then .223 loads most likely. Hell Lapua Cent-X gets close or over now.
I see this almost as a novelty. Your gonna be paying more then .223 loads most likely. Hell Lapua Cent-X gets close or over now.
I understand that completely, but my point is if your trying to optimize for longer distance then why play “just the tip” with a small capacity rimfire caliber and shoot centerfire. For me the draw to rimfire is taking a caliber designed for short range and one that is MASSIVELY effected by atmospherics and seeing what the shooter can do. By altering that premise to an extreme like this concept or any of the fast 17 calibers then you have just created a completely different game.
But that’s just me...
jbell:
Your point is well taken. All agree on wanting more consistent small caliber rimfire ammunition as long as the price isn't too high.
However, what constitutes a completely different game? What about 22LR rifles with a single digit twist rate? Are they a different game? To me your 6 x 5 challenge shooting with ground-bipod-bag is a different game than bench-bipod-bag, especially if one bag is tactical and the other heavy F-Class/benchrest. In terms of challenge it could be keeping your shots within a 6.0 MOA disk at 50 yd shooting standing offhand or a 0.10 MOA disk at 50 yd shooting high-tech benchrest. Whatever game you want to play.
Perhaps the ultimate test of marksmanship is shooting an airgun standing offhand at a target several hundred yards away.
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You will absolutely see the same issues at transonic.
Because it’s not a “new” idea. It’s the exact same idea as centerfire, just applied to Rimfire.
Transonic issues are transonic issues are transonic issues. Doesn’t matter if it’s at 100yds or 1800yds.
So, even with this ammo, you’re going to have to overcome the exact same transonic challenges you do with centerfire.
jbell:
Your point is well taken. All agree on wanting more consistent small caliber rimfire ammunition as long as the price isn't too high.
However, what constitutes a completely different game? What about 22LR rifles with a single digit twist rate? Are they a different game? To me your 6 x 5 challenge shooting with ground-bipod-bag is a different game than bench-bipod-bag, especially if one bag is tactical and the other heavy F-Class/benchrest. In terms of challenge it could be keeping your shots within a 6.0 MOA disk at 50 yd shooting standing offhand or a 0.10 MOA disk at 50 yd shooting high-tech benchrest. Whatever game you want to play.
Perhaps the ultimate test of marksmanship is shooting an airgun standing offhand at a target several hundred yards away.
I get you. I suppose what I’m saying is extracting every bit of potential from the 22lr as we know it for your giving shooting discipline. Of course some disciplines are inherently more accurate than other disciplines but your not taking away from the limitations of the caliber which is the game I’m talking about.
That's an interesting point. A great deal of the draw for .22lr from a competition standpoint is that, with the round itself, there is no equipment race. Essentially every brand is making a 40gr waxed lead projectile of similar shape that goes ~1040-1080 fps. Everybody on the line is basically dealing with those same limitations. Those limitations are both something of an equalizer and also allow safe competition at the smaller facilities present in the eastern U.S. Not being able to (and therefore gaining advantage by) reload it, having barrels last a lifetime, not having to clean much, and lower average per round cost (especially if you practice with slightly cheaper fodder) are also nice selling points.
I should note that historically, these selling points have been enough to cause .22lr versions of shooting competitions to tend to become more popular than their often centerfire progenitors. This is even true for Benchrest, a fact I have always found strange since so much of the competition in that discipline is actually about reloading and so much has been done to minimize the shooter to the point even of not holding the rifle. I do expect, by the way, .22lr PRS style stuff to eventually become more popular than it's centerfire progenitor. People may buy it as a trainer but I expect them to eventually prefer competing with that trainer.
I agree with jbell in that what I am most interested in new .22lr ammo (besides domestically made good stuff perhaps by Lapua at the Berger facility) is better shot to shot velocity consistency and especially temperature stability from 40gr waxed lead stuff at 1040-1080 fps. People already turned .22lr into a light, fast, mini-centerfire round by the way. It's called 17 Mach2.
There is already good consistent ammunition .
In my CZ simple SK std + give me SD’s of 5-7 FPS and I get even better consistency with better ammo.
if your dream is to get tenex or Xtac consistency and quality made cheap and domestically you just plain living in an fary tale.
the point is not improving what already exist since it’s already been improved to the maximum in the last 100 years.
The real question is to improve 22LR for what it was not designed in 1884.
We already know we can lob 40gr billet with the BC of a freight train at 400m + with ammo made to shoot at 50m.
let’s now see what can be done for real and push the envelope without being stuck in the past.
I want to be clear in the fact that I am not trying to oppose the development and advancement of this caliber, I am all for it. I hear what you are saying and applaud those working on seeing where the caliber can go. I can see how it may have sounded like I am against this, I am certainly not. I was just more or less talking through my personal motivations for shooting 22lr.
Funny, on the twist thread I was going to mention alternate bullets. If they are going to be less dense, you can have longer and higher BC bullets. I know they are subsonic, but drag is drag. You’ll probably have to go with 22mag type lengths to get the optimal length/weight/speed balance. I’m guessing the economics of rimfire kind of go out the window then...
I’m sure twists would have to go lower, maybe even a 5-6.
i’d Think you’d have to have these in another class of competition.
I’m sure twists would have to go lower, maybe even a 5-6.
i’d Think you’d have to have these in another class of competition.
22lr not an equipment race? Bwahahaha...
Texas Precision Matches started hosting 22lr matches in 2018. The first that I shot was about 1/2 way through that season, with a Kidd rifle and CCI ammunition. I finished somewhere in the middle of the field composed of 14 or so shooters with CZs, another Kidd, and an assortment of "squirrel rifles." I'm pretty sure the shooter with the other Kidd won that match. Fast forward a few months and with CenterX ammunition and that same rifle, I shot high score in 3 of those matches, though most of the squirrel rifles were staying home and we were starting to see a few Voodoo rifles on the line (2 or 3). July of 2019, I was 7 points out of 1st place (he dropped 3) and finished 3rd, in a field of a few Voodoo rifles and an assortment of upgraded others. 1 and 2 were Voodoos.
Last weekend we shot our first 22 match in several months. There were 28(?) shooters and at least a dozen Voodoo rifles on the line. We had the only semi auto on the line (my son and I share a gun), and with rifle sharing, may have been the only people NOT shooting a Voodoo. I shot essentially the same score I did several months prior (dropped 12 instead of 10) and finished tied for 21st place. I heard one of the match directors refer to the match, not as a bolt gun match, but as a Voodoo Match.
No, to my mind, 22lr is an even bigger gear race than centerfire. No, you don't need a RRS tripod and a $400 bipod, and a "gamer plate." And, you generally don't see guys wearing team jerseys at a 22 match. But, you can most certainly throw money at inaccuracy and make that problem go away. Buy a $1500 barreled action, drop it into a $1000 stock, put a $3000 optic in a $400 mount on top, and feed it $20 per box ammunition selected from a lot testing facility. A rig like this would look silly with a Harris knock off, so go ahead and get that Ckye-pod.
Now, we've got 4 new entries into the "Voodoo space" (Bergara, Ultimatum, Bighorn, Christenson). Maybe there are others. This new ammo is just one more salvo in the 22lr gear war. Hopefully it does well. Hopefully it's affordable. This is where I expect to be disappointed.
Texas Precision Matches started hosting 22lr matches in 2018. The first that I shot was about 1/2 way through that season, with a Kidd rifle and CCI ammunition. I finished somewhere in the middle of the field composed of 14 or so shooters with CZs, another Kidd, and an assortment of "squirrel rifles." I'm pretty sure the shooter with the other Kidd won that match. Fast forward a few months and with CenterX ammunition and that same rifle, I shot high score in 3 of those matches, though most of the squirrel rifles were staying home and we were starting to see a few Voodoo rifles on the line (2 or 3). July of 2019, I was 7 points out of 1st place (he dropped 3) and finished 3rd, in a field of a few Voodoo rifles and an assortment of upgraded others. 1 and 2 were Voodoos.
Last weekend we shot our first 22 match in several months. There were 28(?) shooters and at least a dozen Voodoo rifles on the line. We had the only semi auto on the line (my son and I share a gun), and with rifle sharing, may have been the only people NOT shooting a Voodoo. I shot essentially the same score I did several months prior (dropped 12 instead of 10) and finished tied for 21st place. I heard one of the match directors refer to the match, not as a bolt gun match, but as a Voodoo Match.
No, to my mind, 22lr is an even bigger gear race than centerfire. No, you don't need a RRS tripod and a $400 bipod, and a "gamer plate." And, you generally don't see guys wearing team jerseys at a 22 match. But, you can most certainly throw money at inaccuracy and make that problem go away. Buy a $1500 barreled action, drop it into a $1000 stock, put a $3000 optic in a $400 mount on top, and feed it $20 per box ammunition selected from a lot testing facility. A rig like this would look silly with a Harris knock off, so go ahead and get that Ckye-pod.
Now, we've got 4 new entries into the "Voodoo space" (Bergara, Ultimatum, Bighorn, Christenson). Maybe there are others. This new ammo is just one more salvo in the 22lr gear war. Hopefully it does well. Hopefully it's affordable. This is where I expect to be disappointed.
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Also did I miss the announcement that Impact is now making a 22 action?
Oops, Ultimatum. This is what happens when you don't double check your memory... Editting previous post.
hlee:
What you say is true but there a saving grace. Shooting in strong and variable winds marksmanship wins.
wondering how much a shaped 22 would be vrs the normal 22 and how much better if any would the performance could be ?
i see it both ways..$ wise
what i have found with 22LR
there can be very high initial costs but they are not necessary as with some other shooting styles
even if those costs are high (opinion) they are a single purchase
barrels dont get tossed every 1500 rounds, they will literally last your lifetime
you dont need 1000 yard glass (SB, NF etc) although you do need high mag, to be competitive
there is no need to chase the latest greatest action if you already have bought a "custom"
magazines last forever and are on average cheaper as well
reading wind at 200 does not requite a kestral
i believe a lot of that is owed to ammunition consistency ...quality and/or lack of quality
with that said i would probably buy some and shoot it because i cant stop myself
but what i like about 22LR is the ease of use.
less cleaning, limited brushing if at all etc.
and of course price per round.
i love bolt guns (16" vudoo in aiax) but its a fun to grab the semi and blast away with some cheap crap ammo knowing that 15-20 shots of center x will have me seasoned and back in the bull.
if i want a small jacketed round to out perform a 22LR there are a few on the market already
On the pressures front there is also the fact that a solid copper projectile will "flex" less than lead, leading to higher pressures. I guess going with a lighter weight on the solid copper, might be to mitigate that some.
Innovation is good........as long as it is done right, and comes in at a price point that people will buy it. I've often wondered why some of the bigger .22lr ammo manufacturers never came out with something like the Aguila SSS?
Innovation is good........as long as it is done right, and comes in at a price point that people will buy it. I've often wondered why some of the bigger .22lr ammo manufacturers never came out with something like the Aguila SSS?
What is considered ELR for 22lr?
300 yards???
400 yards???
300 yards???
400 yards???
I plugged a random BC of .280 for my CenterX profile into my ballistics app.. Left everything else the same. The differences between the two profiles were relatively similar out to 200. Beyond that, it became very apparent what these little solids might be capable of, not just in drop, but also in wind drift.
Guys are trying 600+
But really if a good group at 200 is the size of your fist +/-
4-500 is ELR or what I consider ELR / reasonable hit percentage.
it’ll go 1.5-2 miles but 20 shots to hit a piece of plywood at 800 yards is not my cup of tea.
But really if a good group at 200 is the size of your fist +/-
4-500 is ELR or what I consider ELR / reasonable hit percentage.
it’ll go 1.5-2 miles but 20 shots to hit a piece of plywood at 800 yards is not my cup of tea.
I agree, it really has to have a decent hit percentage before I consider it actually feasible. Otherwise it all just chance and luck, not my thing...
My experiment with BC, subsonic velocity, and relative ELR distances - like what one would consider for a 22rf, was with a 300BO Ruger bolt action.
It was darn hard for me to keep ES down with long high BC bullets, like 230gr Berger hybrids and 225 Hornady's.
I found that except for being easier to hit in the wind with, the vertical was much like a 22rf at 300 to 500Y. By 400Y it wasn't easy to hit a 15" tall x 12" wide steel and by 500Y it got a bit stupid with some wind involved. This was a 1 moa load at 1050 fps and a ES of 50-ish fps. Even though the BC was high it was still hard to hit that 1' wide steel in medium winds at those distances.
Tried other powders and bullets without getting better results so I lost interest.
Saw what I needed to, and had played with 300BO enough that I was done with that subsonic long range experiment in a span of 6 months or so.
I thought to myself, heck I'll just shoot my 22rf instead for this purpose, it doesn't do much worse if the wind is down and way cheaper to do.
Went the exact opposite and got a small centerfire going fast, a 20-221FB AI with 32's at 3735 fps. Turned out to be just what I wanted for out to 500Y. Low noise, low barrel heat, low recoil, long barrel life, super accuracy and low ES, so many cool things going on here! Did a reduced load for it at 2330 fps which is fun too and provides more challenge in the wind.
Like I mentioned in the Vudoo thread, I think it's time for mini centerfire cartridges to be "THE NEXT THING". 17WSM ballistics but low ES being the goal.
I know for me I'm tapping out at $12 for 50 rounds of 22 rimfire ammo.
Always intrigued by innovation so I'll be looking forward to how the new CE RF does.
It was darn hard for me to keep ES down with long high BC bullets, like 230gr Berger hybrids and 225 Hornady's.
I found that except for being easier to hit in the wind with, the vertical was much like a 22rf at 300 to 500Y. By 400Y it wasn't easy to hit a 15" tall x 12" wide steel and by 500Y it got a bit stupid with some wind involved. This was a 1 moa load at 1050 fps and a ES of 50-ish fps. Even though the BC was high it was still hard to hit that 1' wide steel in medium winds at those distances.
Tried other powders and bullets without getting better results so I lost interest.
Saw what I needed to, and had played with 300BO enough that I was done with that subsonic long range experiment in a span of 6 months or so.
I thought to myself, heck I'll just shoot my 22rf instead for this purpose, it doesn't do much worse if the wind is down and way cheaper to do.
Went the exact opposite and got a small centerfire going fast, a 20-221FB AI with 32's at 3735 fps. Turned out to be just what I wanted for out to 500Y. Low noise, low barrel heat, low recoil, long barrel life, super accuracy and low ES, so many cool things going on here! Did a reduced load for it at 2330 fps which is fun too and provides more challenge in the wind.
Like I mentioned in the Vudoo thread, I think it's time for mini centerfire cartridges to be "THE NEXT THING". 17WSM ballistics but low ES being the goal.
I know for me I'm tapping out at $12 for 50 rounds of 22 rimfire ammo.
Always intrigued by innovation so I'll be looking forward to how the new CE RF does.
I have played with my Vudoo beyond 400 yards. Even with a S&B 5-25 I had a hard time spotting hits/misses.
Hitting an 18x24 was not impossible, but you can run out of elevation in the scope and end up holding over in short order.
400 is about the limit and not need specialized bases/rings, hit targets and have a good time.
Hitting an 18x24 was not impossible, but you can run out of elevation in the scope and end up holding over in short order.
400 is about the limit and not need specialized bases/rings, hit targets and have a good time.
Was hitting 354 yards constantly in heavy wind w/ CCI-SV and some Federal Target. The CCI being a bit more consistent. Target was 12" round steel.
Not the .22lr but shows how windy it actually was.
Target is near dead center in the first zoom. The AR I'm shooting in the video is 1. just resting on the tripod and 2. was getting baffle strikes on the suppressor I was not aware of at the time. Third shot was the only hit w/ this rifle.
Video for wind.
Not the .22lr but shows how windy it actually was.
Target is near dead center in the first zoom. The AR I'm shooting in the video is 1. just resting on the tripod and 2. was getting baffle strikes on the suppressor I was not aware of at the time. Third shot was the only hit w/ this rifle.
Video for wind.
The heavy bullets take 1:6- oh, my.
The question is can Cutting Edge get their bullets into consistently made/performing 22lr cases. From the stories at ELEY, it is a witches brew and more art than science, or at least science used to explain why 22lr acts like it does.
The question is can Cutting Edge get their bullets into consistently made/performing 22lr cases. From the stories at ELEY, it is a witches brew and more art than science, or at least science used to explain why 22lr acts like it does.
In the interview with 8541, the gal from CE mentions the tipped bullets actually perform better at long range, this is news to me, I thought their pointed solids worked the best for ELR?
So if you need a one and six twist barrel for the most aggressive of these new projectiles, will you be able to use that same barrel for regular standard 40 grain sub sonic? I’m fine with using these for really true extreme long range 22 shooting, but I don’t want to be having to use them for positional training at Short ranges because I can’t put standard sub ammo through the same gun.
It'll certainly be interesting to find out. I think in the not too distant future, @RAVAGE88 will be able to shed some light on your question.
Any experimentation with 22 long rifle ammo Is a good thing. It leads to advancements. Long rifle ammo is pretty inconsistent. Even in the high-end stuff you get occasional Flyers. Advancements in bullets priming compound and powder is always good. Without experimenting with different projectiles powder and primer and cases no advancement will ever be made. Kudos to these guys keep experimenting guys. Don't let the naysayers stop you. As we know Orville and Wilbur Wright had naysayers also now look at our jet fighters we have Keep it up guys.
To me, it all comes down to price and compatibility.
EPS TENEX is $0.35 per round, crappy 223 is 0.25. Assuming that you'd need the best in 22lr case tech to fully appreciate the barrel, you'd need to add the cost of the new bullets plus some kind of multiplier for specialty ammo.
Their current 224 55 gr bullets are about $0.70 each. I don't know why a 22lr bullet of the same weight wouldn't be similar.
Seems like you are pretty close to $1 a round at that point and right at what I can get 6.5CM from MHSA. Nes spa?
So, sure, you can practice 'long range' at a 2-300 yard range, versus finding a 1000m range to play on.
And because you have a copper bullet over a lead bullet, you have to start to worry about barrel life and more complex cleaning. And if the twist rates are incompatible with standard ammo- or you have to give something up on the solids end for compatibility? Another $3k rimfire gun?
What could you reload 223/223AI for?
I just don't see lathed solids being anything more than golden BBs. I applaud the push in tech- and maybe the production of the bullets for RF would allow either economies in quality or scale. I think MIM bullets would be perhaps cheaper.
EPS TENEX is $0.35 per round, crappy 223 is 0.25. Assuming that you'd need the best in 22lr case tech to fully appreciate the barrel, you'd need to add the cost of the new bullets plus some kind of multiplier for specialty ammo.
Their current 224 55 gr bullets are about $0.70 each. I don't know why a 22lr bullet of the same weight wouldn't be similar.
Seems like you are pretty close to $1 a round at that point and right at what I can get 6.5CM from MHSA. Nes spa?
So, sure, you can practice 'long range' at a 2-300 yard range, versus finding a 1000m range to play on.
And because you have a copper bullet over a lead bullet, you have to start to worry about barrel life and more complex cleaning. And if the twist rates are incompatible with standard ammo- or you have to give something up on the solids end for compatibility? Another $3k rimfire gun?
What could you reload 223/223AI for?
I just don't see lathed solids being anything more than golden BBs. I applaud the push in tech- and maybe the production of the bullets for RF would allow either economies in quality or scale. I think MIM bullets would be perhaps cheaper.
I can swap my barrel in mere seconds. This sounds good for me.
I am not jumping in just yet. But I am very intrigued. This is like 17HMR ballistics in 22LR (and much better). Finally precision loaded cartridges.
Actually, we should ask them to make those rounds in HMR!
I am not jumping in just yet. But I am very intrigued. This is like 17HMR ballistics in 22LR (and much better). Finally precision loaded cartridges.
Actually, we should ask them to make those rounds in HMR!
