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ELR Optic (800-2200 yards) Opinions

S

staticTango

Private
Minuteman
Apr 9, 2010
98
11
Blacksburg, VA
I recently purchased an MRAD in 300 PRC in order to enter ELR and would like everyone’s optics opinions.

Currently have a S&B PMII 5-25 grid reticle and love the optical clarity and overall picture — except HATE the zero stop and tiny turret marks. The reticle lines just seems more “precise”/“fine” than the mil-xt.

I have ATACRs in F1s 1-8, 4.5-16 and 5-25, NX8 2.5-20 and really like the mil-xt reticles and turrets.

My Kahles 6-24 is nice, but the image is a bit orange. Prefer the NF and S&B over it.

Im just not really into Vortex. I’ve just never tried one.

Have a good source for Leupold MK5s (30ish percent off). But have no experience with them. How do they compare to others listed??

I’ve never used an ATACR 7-35, how does it compare to S&B PMII, ATACR 5-25 and MK5 7-35?

I’m leaning towards NF 7-35 or MK5 7-35 (for price savings)
 
The 7-35 atacr is quite popular with the elr crowd, good internal elevation, excellent glass, good selection of reticle.

As far as reticle, I'd get the cleanest that you like. I mostly dial elevation and windage at elr distances, and spotting impact at that distance is tough enough without a busy Xmas tree reticle getting in the way. I do a lot of elr shooting without a spotter, so the ability to spot my own shots is important.

I ended up with the Mk 5 7-35, mostly because after building the rifle, saving 1k over the atacr was important. 🤣
 
I went with ZCO 5-27 for the glass, internal elevation and the x reticles. I’m a big fan of having the top half open for spotting purposes. I also shoot alone a lot. The 3x was the only one available when I bought it. Now that the 2x is out, I’d probably order it today.
 
Must be my color blindness. I don't see the orange in my Kahles that you mention.

Love the AMR reticle for ELR
 
You can always add a magnifying glass to see your turrets better... the SB LT turrets? If it's just on an ELR gun, you won't be dialing like you would in a PRS match, so the turrets shouldn't be as big of a factor.

The NF 7-35 glass is excellent, and some say better than the NF 5-25x. I don't think they are a good as SB or Kahles, but they are close enough, that reticle choice could be the determining factor.

What is it about the zero stop that you don't like? For me, I don't like the NF turrets zeroing process

Scott
 
For S&B I have the DT/ST non-locking turrets. I don’t like the zero stop, because I’d like to set the zero stop to be about 3 mills under my actual zero (MRAD being switch barrel, and my .308 barrel is about 2mills higher POI). Unless I can actually change that and it’s not tied to the turret cap zero position, like it seems.

Have any of you done an in person comparison between NF, ZCO, S&B and the Leupold Mk5? How inferior is the MK5? Very noticeable? There’s definitely a lot of price savings.
 
I have a Diamondback 6X24X50 I have used at 1000yds. Pretty sure it'll work further out.
 
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Zcomp 5-27 on the 375ct ,S&B 3-27 on the .338lm and S&B 5-25 on the 300wm all are good passed a mile. In a pinch the 2nd tier scopes I have used passed a mile are Vortex 4.5-27 and Tract Toric 4.5-30 both preformed well at range.
 
Maybe have a look the new S&B 6-36, the elevation is up to 39.5mil and the glass is on par with ZCO527 and TT525. Price is about 500-600 more.
 
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The ZCO is obviously a good choice. The 7-35 atacr is no slouch though.

Seems you have the $ to buy the NF 7-35 so I’d consider that or the ZCO for slightly more. Both can be purchased used at a good savings in the px

I’d buy either of those before a Vortex anything

The Mil-XT reticle is excellent
 
ATACR with the Mil C (I prefer clean reticles with floating dot for ELR) or the ZCO 5-27 with its version of the same reticle. Both are excellent quality. For both, you don't need to go with the higher magnification. I seldom go above 20 or so at the range you mention. I love my ZCO.
 
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Like Rocketman said on the mag power I’m right there as well 20x-25x. I was pretty exclusive to NightForce but switched to ZComp and havent looked back. I just can’t justify the price for a new NF anymore. But if you find a good price on a used NF atacr don’t hesitate
 
I use a Vortex Razor 6-36 on my 338LM elr rig. It's hard to have people tell u what to get for a scope. Our eyes all see colors so differently and we all want something different in a retical. For my eyes the Leupold didn't hold a candle compared to the Razor or the NF 7-35 and for sure not the others mentioned. Would it work fine for 800-2200, absolutely.
 
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mr_fullmetal said:
Like Rocketman said on the mag power I’m right there as well 20x-25x. I was pretty exclusive to NightForce but switched to ZComp and havent looked back. I just can’t justify the price for a new NF anymore. But if you find a good price on a used NF atacr don’t hesitate
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There's been some good prices on used ZCO lately also
 
I love my March Genesis 4-40x52. High Master glass is superb and partially because the scope is always optically centered since this scope is external adjust.

Superior IQ to my S&B PM2 5-25 by a good margin.
 
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Huskydriver said:
So set your zero 3 mils high?

Imo the SB dtii+ are the best turrets ever
Click to expand...
This is the way
1693949601177.gif
 
staticTango said:
I recently purchased an MRAD in 300 PRC in order to enter ELR and would like everyone’s optics opinions.

Currently have a S&B PMII 5-25 grid reticle and love the optical clarity and overall picture — except HATE the zero stop and tiny turret marks. The reticle lines just seems more “precise”/“fine” than the mil-xt.

I have ATACRs in F1s 1-8, 4.5-16 and 5-25, NX8 2.5-20 and really like the mil-xt reticles and turrets.

My Kahles 6-24 is nice, but the image is a bit orange. Prefer the NF and S&B over it.

Im just not really into Vortex. I’ve just never tried one.

Have a good source for Leupold MK5s (30ish percent off). But have no experience with them. How do they compare to others listed??

I’ve never used an ATACR 7-35, how does it compare to S&B PMII, ATACR 5-25 and MK5 7-35?

I’m leaning towards NF 7-35 or MK5 7-35 (for price savings)
Click to expand...
I've had 2 7-35mk5s fail me during matches, one had .7-.8mil horizontal shift while turning the magnification ring and the other completely quit tracking true two weeks ago. Never again will I run Leupold on a match rifle.
 
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I had a Gen II Vortex and replaced t with a Tract 5x25x50 and love it. Good if not top tier glass, good turrets, easy to set zero stop, and 47 mils of elevation. Got me out to 1400 easily in 10+ mph full value that switched direction every couple hundred yds. Customer service, seems top notch. Called on a Saturday afternoon and got a call back in 5 minutes with the answer to my question.
 
Maggot said:
I had a Gen II Vortex and replaced t with a Tract 5x25x50 and love it. Good if not top tier glass, good turrets, easy to set zero stop, and 47 mils of elevation. Got me out to 1400 easily in 10+ mph full value that switched direction every couple hundred yds. Customer service, seems top notch. Called on a Saturday afternoon and got a call back in 5 minutes with the answer to my question.
Click to expand...

I'm a fan of Tract. I have their spotting scope and like it quite a bit, and there is no doubt their customer service is tops.

This scope is intriguing with the 47 mils of available vertical, though I'm not sure when you're realistically going to use that much at a range for which their glass is appropriate. My spotting scope is great out to 2000-2100 yards, but at ranges like 2500 it doesn't provide necessary clarity to be effective. After a friend of mine played with my spotter, he bought one of their rifle scopes and I got to play. Objectively, from a clarity standpoint I put it decently above a Vortex Gen II, but behind a NF ATACR - though, admittedly, I did not get to test these side by side.

I'm not knocking Tract at all because at their price points I would never expect extreme range performance - for longer ELR ranges, I think you really need to get into Swaro territory for spotters and the highest end of rifle optics. I'm willing to (and have) spent the $$ on scopes for my ELR rifles, but have yet to go the extra mile for my spotter.
 
Rocketmandb said:
I'm a fan of Tract. I have their spotting scope and like it quite a bit, and there is no doubt their customer service is tops.

This scope is intriguing with the 47 mils of available vertical, though I'm not sure when you're realistically going to use that much at a range for which their glass is appropriate. My spotting scope is great out to 2000-2100 yards, but at ranges like 2500 it doesn't provide necessary clarity to be effective. After a friend of mine played with my spotter, he bought one of their rifle scopes and I got to play. Objectively, from a clarity standpoint I put it decently above a Vortex Gen II, but behind a NF ATACR - though, admittedly, I did not get to test these side by side.

I'm not knocking Tract at all because at their price points I would never expect extreme range performance - for longer ELR ranges, I think you really need to get into Swaro territory for spotters and the highest end of rifle optics. I'm willing to (and have) spent the $$ on scopes for my ELR rifles, but have yet to go the extra mile for my spotter.
Click to expand...
With mine I could see bullet impacts on a freshly painted target at a mile. Not mine, the guy beside me shooting a 375 Cheytac. Wind didnt seem to bother it as much.

But yeah, for $3500 and up the ZCO or Theta would be nice.
 
steve123 said:
I love my March Genesis 4-40x52. High Master glass is superb and partially because the scope is always optically centered since this scope is external adjust.

Superior IQ to my S&B PM2 5-25 by a good margin.
Click to expand...
Nice looking scope.
 
Maggot said:
With mine I could see bullet impacts on a freshly painted target at a mile. Not mine, the guy beside me shooting a 375 Cheytac. Wind didnt seem to bother it as much.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the Tract should be able to handle that no problem, but spotting hits at a mile is seldom an issue if you're not trying something sort of stupid like shooting a 6 BRA at that distance where the energy is all but spent... oh wait :)

Maggot said:
But yeah, for $3500 and up the ZCO or Theta would be nice.
Click to expand...

Closer to $5k, but yeah, they're nice. But as @steve123 mentions, the March Genesis is amazing glass AND you get the benefit of always looking through the center of the scope. I've got one on my 37XC and it is nice. I like that I don't have to worry about getting an external device to get out to really long ranges. The only real negative is that it is a scope that sits high off the action and at higher elevation settings, you need to reset your cheek rest. For me, it was to the point that I ran out of cheek riser post. I had to get a couple longer ones machined. It's a scope purpose built for extreme elevations and is overkill for mile-ish type ranges.
 
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Rocketmandb said:
Yeah, the Tract should be able to handle that no problem, but spotting hits at a mile is seldom an issue if you're not trying something sort of stupid like shooting a 6 BRA at that distance where the energy is all but spent... oh wait :)



Closer to $5k, but yeah, they're nice. But as @steve123 mentions, the March Genesis is amazing glass AND you get the benefit of always looking through the center of the scope. I've got one on my 37XC and it is nice. I like that I don't have to worry about getting an external device to get out to really long ranges. The only real negative is that it is a scope that sits high off the action and at higher elevation settings, you need to reset your cheek rest. For me, it was to the point that I ran out of cheek riser post. I had to get a couple longer ones machined. It's a scope purpose built for extreme elevations and is overkill for mile-ish type ranges.
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I dodnt understand the "Always looking through the center of the scope." How does the clarity compare with the best?
 
Maggot said:
I dodnt understand the "Always looking through the center of the scope." How does the clarity compare with the best?
Click to expand...

My basic understanding.

Because the Genesis has turrets that operate external adjustments there is no movement of a internal erector.
So it's somewhat like a spotting scope because the lenses stay aligned and centered better.

If you've ever looked through your standard rifle scope the IQ typically degrades near the top or bottom of the adjustment range. This is mostly due to the erector being tipped to the extreme.
This problem doesn't happen with external adjustment scopes. It's always as close to optically centered as the factory can achieve.
 
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steve123 said:
My basic understanding.

Because the Genesis has turrets that operate external adjustments there is no movement of a internal erector.
So it's somewhat like a spotting scope because the lenses stay aligned and centered better.

If you've ever looked through your standard rifle scope the IQ typically degrades near the top or bottom of the adjustment range. This is mostly due to the erector being tipped to the extreme.
This problem doesn't happen with external adjustment scopes. It's always as close to optically centered as the factory can achieve.
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Interesting, I'd like to check one out.

Just looked at the prices at Euro Optic. For $6000 it should carry your rifle for you.
 
Maggot said:
Interesting, I'd like to check one out.

Just looked at the prices at Euro Optic. For $6000 it should carry your rifle for you.
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Diminishing returns but there nonetheless.

It's a super heavy scope and heavier still when the angled mount base is used.

It's a very niche scope and it's attributes outweigh(ha pun intended) whatever downsides it might have compared to other scopes.

I sold a scope I had for $3200 so coming up with the extra money for the $4700 I paid for a LNIB Genesis 4-40 wasn't much of a financial sacrifice.
Glad I bought it.

Of course I'm kinda weird anyway because I have it mounted on a air rifle to hit stuff out to 421y so far but with plans to try and stretch it as far as I can hit steel reasonably often.
 
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Maggot said:
I dodnt understand the "Always looking through the center of the scope." How does the clarity compare with the best?
Click to expand...

@steve123 explained it pretty well. Below is a diagram of what happens when you mount a scope on an angled rail. When you're set for close in (e.g. at 100 yards), the erector is elevated within the scope body and is pointing out the upper side of the objective. When you dial for max distance, you're elevating the scope and rifle and looking out the bottom of the glass.

scope erector tube.png


The optimal clarity is when the erector is aligned with the center of the glass.

With the March Genesis (see below), the scope body is mounted within an external case. Every click of elevation rotates the entire body within the external case. This means that you're always looking through the middle of the glass.

1694990705995.png


The other main advantage is that you're able to dial A LOT more elevation. This particular scope has 86 MILs of total elevation available to it. As I mentioned earlier, the main negative of this configuration is that the height of the eyepiece changes as you dial. Additionally, you have only two mount height options, and the lower of the two is still pretty tall to ensure at max dial with high angled rail and a long barrel, you're not looking at said barrel.

That's why I mentioned above that this is really a scope meant for ELR. At medium ranges (like a mile and in), the clarity doesn't buy you much because, well, you don't need it, and you certainly don't need the elevation. But at longer ranges, the clarity really comes into play, and the elevation capabilities mean you don't need an external device to get the dial you need.
 
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Rocketmandb said:
@steve123 explained it pretty well. Below is a diagram of what happens when you mount a scope on an angled rail. When you're set for close in (e.g. at 100 yards), the erector is elevated within the scope body and is pointing out the upper side of the objective. When you dial for max distance, you're elevating the scope and rifle and looking out the bottom of the glass.

View attachment 8229612

The optimal clarity is when the erector is aligned with the center of the glass.

With the March Genesis (see below), the scope body is mounted within an external case. Every click of elevation rotates the entire body within the external case. This means that you're always looking through the middle of the glass.

View attachment 8229622

The other main advantage is that you're able to dial A LOT more elevation. This particular scope has 86 MILs of total elevation available to it. As I mentioned earlier, the main negative of this configuration is that the height of the eyepiece changes as you dial. Additionally, you have only two mount height options, and the lower of the two is still pretty tall to ensure at max dial with high angled rail and a long barrel, you're not looking at said barrel.

That's why I mentioned above that this is really a scope meant for ELR. At medium ranges (like a mile and in), the clarity doesn't buy you much because, well, you don't need it, and you certainly don't need the elevation. But at longer ranges, the clarity really comes into play, and the elevation capabilities mean you don't need an external device to get the dial you need.
Click to expand...
That really clears it up. I didnt know that the scope sits in a separate adjustor. Thus the added weight.
 
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Apologies for hijacking the thread a little since it is so close to my own struggle.

I am new to ELR and my current setup is the same as OP’s weapon and cartridge. I ran ZC420 on my previous rifle so I just moved it onto the Barrett. I took it out to 1900 and frankly needed a spotter as I couldn’t see the misses or the bullet at all. Now I realize that some of that is lack of recoil management and lack of experience, but here is a question to the ZCO/TT crowd out there: is it worth upgrading to ZC840 if I am self spotting or would it be better to spend some range time learning with what I have at first?
 
nazarsh said:
Apologies for hijacking the thread a little since it is so close to my own struggle.

I am new to ELR and my current setup is the same as OP’s weapon and cartridge. I ran ZC420 on my previous rifle so I just moved it onto the Barrett. I took it out to 1900 and frankly needed a spotter as I couldn’t see the misses or the bullet at all. Now I realize that some of that is lack of recoil management and lack of experience, but here is a question to the ZCO/TT crowd out there: is it worth upgrading to ZC840 if I am self spotting or would it be better to spend some range time learning with what I have at first?
Click to expand...
More magnification is rarely the answer for ELR. I almost always end up 15-20 power. Maybe someone that has handled both can speak to how the big 840 cuts mirage but I can't see it being any different.
 
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Taylorbok said:
More magnification is rarely the answer for ELR. I almost always end up 15-20 power. Maybe someone that has handled both can speak to how the big 840 cuts mirage but I can't see it being any different.
Click to expand...

With my 300 PRC, I'm the same. I'm typically at 20ish, tops, at ~2000 yards. On this rifle I run a ZCO 5-25.

I have a March 4-40 on my 37XC, but even there, I don't use the upper end of the mag.
 
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Thanks @Taylorbok and @Rocketmandb , do you have an additional spotting setup then or does the ~20x ends up working out even for the misses and corrections in the self spotting situations? (Drone, attachment on a spotting scope with replay, etc?)

If I don’t “have” to switch from 420 I’d rather not, I have MPCT3X on it and I love the glass and the reticle.

I just wasn’t sure what my ELR tooling should end up looking like vs developing a skill set.
 
nazarsh said:
Thanks @Taylorbok and @Rocketmandb , do you have an additional spotting setup then or does the ~20x ends up working out even for the misses and corrections in the self spotting situations? (Drone, attachment on a spotting scope with replay, etc?)

If I don’t “have” to switch from 420 I’d rather not, I have MPCT3X on it and I love the glass and the reticle.

I just wasn’t sure what my ELR tooling should end up looking like vs developing a skill set.
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Depending on the terrain and conditions I can self spot through the scope on that power, I had no problem spotting shots from my 30 cal out to 2400 yards in Wyoming. Up here the other day I couldn't see crap out of my 375 at a mile just due to ground and mirage. I had a partner spotting for me that was picking them up but barely. I don't usually shoot ELR alone but I have been considering a phone adapter for the spotting scope
 
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Last weekend I’m at 1900 yards, mid 80 with mild mirage. I’m only at 25x of my zco840. Some said the scope sweet spot usually at high-mid magnification(I can’t confirm that) Try load your bipod heavier with spike feet. My scope reticle only shift 3mil horizontal only after recoil (338nm,338lm,33xc)
 
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Taylorbok said:
Depending on the terrain and conditions I can self spot through the scope on that power, I had no problem spotting shots from my 30 cal out to 2400 yards in Wyoming. Up here the other day I couldn't see crap out of my 375 at a mile just due to ground and mirage. I had a partner spotting for me that was picking them up but barely. I don't usually shoot ELR alone but I have been considering a phone adapter for the spotting scope
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This really helps thanks! Northern Florida and Southern Georgia, so lots of fun with mirage for sure.

And thank you @Dave62677, this definitely confirms a few things for me. Do you then use the rest of the magnification to see the hits? Was it a good overall decision to get ZC840?
 
steve123 said:
I love my March Genesis 4-40x52. High Master glass is superb and partially because the scope is always optically centered since this scope is external adjust.

Superior IQ to my S&B PM2 5-25 by a good margin.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately there is a reason you don't see these on any ELR guns anymore. They were a tracking nightmare
 
nazarsh said:
This really helps thanks! Northern Florida and Southern Georgia, so lots of fun with mirage for sure.

And thank you @Dave62677, this definitely confirms a few things for me. Do you then use the rest of the magnification to see the hits? Was it a good overall decision to get ZC840?
Click to expand...
u should able to see with 25x.
 
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nazarsh said:
Thanks @Taylorbok and @Rocketmandb , do you have an additional spotting setup then or does the ~20x ends up working out even for the misses and corrections in the self spotting situations? (Drone, attachment on a spotting scope with replay, etc?)

If I don’t “have” to switch from 420 I’d rather not, I have MPCT3X on it and I love the glass and the reticle.

I just wasn’t sure what my ELR tooling should end up looking like vs developing a skill set.
Click to expand...

When I go with a friend or two, there is always a spotter, but I still always get back on target after the shot to self spot. 20x should be enough for most ranges the 300 PRC plays in provided:

- The target isn't surrounded by vegetation
- The target has a good backstop (e.g. it's not on relatively flat ground)
- The ground isn't wet
 
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Rocketmandb said:
When I go with a friend or two, there is always a spotter, but I still always get back on target after the shot to self spot. 20x should be enough for most ranges the 300 PRC plays in provided:

- The target isn't surrounded by vegetation
- The target has a good backstop (e.g. it's not on relatively flat ground)
- The ground isn't wet
Click to expand...
Gotcha, that’s really good to know, thanks. I might be switching to 300NM and trying out lighter solids making things likely harder, but I see the overall idea and the skill part so I can measure against described experience.

@LakuNoc yup, the thought definitely crossed my mind and it would be cool to actually compare the ZC840 with it.

Thanks @Dave62677 that definitely helps. Partially tells me I don’t need to upgrade any time soon.
 
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