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ELR Participation Discovery

Dan Warner

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 11, 2017
205
195
I write this in attempts to glean what participation we might expect from an ELR match run with the following format with 8 target distances out to 2 miles. The following is the anticipated program and is subject to change. Please read and give us your feedback on whether you would participate or not.

DAY 1 (if need be this course of fire carries over to day 2)
4 shortest target distances are shot sequentially shortest to longest.
Failure to make at least one hit by the end of the second target results in elimination from the event.
i: No eliminations after the second target.
ii: Remaining shooters will shoot all of the remaining targets.
  • ALL 4 shooters will approach the firing line AT THE SAME TIME. All 4 shooters will leave the firing line AT THE SAME TIME.If a shooter finishes before the end of the allotted time, they will remain at their individual firing point.
  • Shooters are given a total of 15 minutes to BOTH prepare AND shoot 5 rounds once they reach the firing line.
  • Preparation and shooting are COMBINED, NOT SEPARATE.
  • Each shooter will shoot their assigned target. (shooting an incorrect target scores ZERO points; the shooter cannot reshoot the shot; the shot counts towards the shooter’s 5 shots)
  • Each shooter has 5 shots to make 3 hits for score in the 15 minute time frame.
  • No additional points are awarded for using less than the full amount of a shooter’s allotted time at a target distance, or for more hits than 3 at a single target distance.
  • After a shooter has completed shooting a target distance, the shooters must stay at the firing point and score for the next team that is coming up onto the Firing Line.
  • After scoring for the next shooter, the team is free to move back to the next target distance.
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DAYS 2 and 3
4 longest target distances are shot sequentially shortest to longest over these 2 days, 2 targets each day.
Course of fire is round robin shooting from a 3 point firing line that engages 2 targets at 2 different distances in roughly 36 minutes.

Example:
  • Shooter #1 takes 5 shots to make 3 hits in 6 minutes to hit Target #1.
  • Once Shooter #1 takes his 5[SUP]th[/SUP] Shot, Shooter #2 has 5 shots to make 3 hits in 6 minutes to hit Target #1.
  • Once Shooter #2 takes his 5[SUP]th[/SUP] Shot, Shooter #3 has 5 shots to make 3 hits in 6 minutes to hit Target #1.
  • Once Shooter #3 takes his 5[SUP]th[/SUP] Shot, Shooter #1 has 5 shots to make 3 hits in 6 minutes to hit Target #2,
  • Once Shooter #1 takes his 5[SUP]th[/SUP] Shot on target #2, Shooter #2 has 5 shots to make 3 hits in 6 minutes to hit Target #2.
  • Once Shooter #2 takes his 5[SUP]th[/SUP] Shot at target #2, Shooter #3 has 5 shots to make 3 hits in 6 minutes to hit Target #2.
  • Shooters will infiltrate in a relay format as the prior shooter finishes shooting their second target distance and clear the firing line.
  • The Shooter has 10 minute preparation period once the prior shooter is off the Line.
  • Each shooter has 5 shots to make 3 hits for score in 6 minutes.
  • No additional points are awarded for using less than the full amount of a shooter’s allotted time at a target distance, or for more hits than 3 at a single target distance.
  • After a shooter has completed shooting a target distance, the shooters must stay at the firing point and score for the next team that is coming up onto the Firing Line.
  • After scoring for the next shooter, the team is free to move back to the next target distance.
The location of this match is expected to be west central NV, not very far from the California border. This would be run in September (final dates to be determined – but we are currently looking at Sept. 9 to 11 OR Sept. 14 to 18), so as to avoid the summer heat and winter cold. There are adequate meals and lodging facilities within 5 miles of the range. Local law enforcement is interested in using their drones for shot spotting assistance.
Time will be allotted on the day prior to the start of the match to zero rifles at a known distance and become familiar with the location. Target distances will be published prior to the match, but there will be no practice on these targets prior to the match.
As with any match, logistics is essential to its success. As we plan this event, we need to get a rough idea of what participation numbers might be. The longevity of this match is determined by the number of shooters and the number of shots per shooter on each target. We will be limiting one or the other based on results of this survey.
There are a lot of ideas and theories being floated right now as to what and how the ELR game is to be played. We hope that this is representative of those goals.
 
We are looking for feedback both in terms of would you potentially attend such a match and to the Course of Fire itself.

I can clarify that the Round robin portion of the match is set up in 2 target batches, with a cooling down period of at least 70-80 minutes before the shooter would go back up to the firing line to shoot the final 2 targets (also in a round robin format). The cooling down period is dependent upon how many shooters are in the match and how many get past the "elimination" after the second target.

Frankly, the elimination should not affect many people at all (I personally expect that 85-95% of the shooters will be shooting the remaining 6 targets). The first two targets are very likely to be set @ 1200 -1300 yards for the 1st target and the 2nd target @ 1500-1600 yards. Making even a single hit in 10 total shots (5 on each of the first 2 targets) gets you past the elimination.

JeffVN
 
I would likely attend. The shooters qualifying between 11AM & 2PM would earn my respect.

Are there any equipment restrictions?

Thanks,
 
Just express interest here?

If so, my shooting partner and I are interested.

Scoring details, or are they still being worked out?

 
Only restrictions at this point are a 50 caliber max cartridge. All gear must be man portable; you must be able to carry you gear on and off the line.

Here are the scoring details as proposed:

Number of shots allowed per target: 5 shots maximum
Number of shots scored per target: 3
Proposed scoring system:
Points earned relate directly to the number of the shot(s) that hit the target. Earlier shots are worth more points than later shots at a given distance. Points increase as the target distances increases.
Shooting an incorrect target scores ZERO points. The shooter cannot reshoot that, and the shot counts towards the shooter’s 5 shots.
No points are awarded for using less than the full amount of a shooter’s allotted time at a target distance, or for more hits than 3 at a single target distance.
1st target: 5-4-3-2-1.
2nd target: 7-6-5-4-3.
3rd target: 9, 8, 7, 6, 5.
4th target: 11, 10, 9, 8, 7
5th target: 13, 12, 11, 10, 9
6th target: 15, 14, 13, 12, 11
7th target: 17, 16, 15, 14, 13
8th target: 19, 18, 17, 16, 15
E.g. If a shooter hits target #1 w/ shots 1, 3, & 4 – the points earned would be 5, 3, 2. Shooters score for Target #1 is 10 points. The shooter in this case would stop shooting after his 4[SUP]th[/SUP] shot (3[SUP]rd[/SUP] hit on the target).
If 2 or more shooters tie on overall points, then the shooter who took the fewest total shots is the winner.
If the 2 or more shooters all had the same number of total shots, then a scorecard shoot-off (starting with the furthest target and working towards the shortest) determines the winner.
E.g. Shooter #1 hit Target #8 with shots 1, 3, 4
Shooter #2 hit Target #8 w/ shots 1, 3, 4. Tie not broken.
Shooter #1 hit Target #7 w/ shots 1, 2, 3.
Shooter #2 hit Target #7 w/ shots 1, 3, 4. Shooter #1 is the winner.
Time limit per target:
6 minutes for Round Robin. (4 longest target distances)
Approximately 6 minutes for Relay Targets (combined gear set up and shooting time of 15 minutes for 5 shots on that target) (4 shortest targets)
Size of ALL targets: 36”x36”
Target Cycle (block time for x number of targets or how do you rotate through targets):
4 shortest targets – Relays of 4 shooters at a time will run on 15 minute cycles, until all relays and shooters have shot that target. All relay move up to and away from the firing point at the same time. Once a shooter has finished shooting a target, that shooter will score for the next shooter who is moving up onto the firing line. Once a shooter has scored for the next shooter, that shooter is free to move back to the next staging point behind the next firing point.
4 longest targets – 3 shooters are on the firing line at one time. Shooters will fire sequentially in a round robin at a single target (up to 5 shots in 6 minutes). Once shooter #3 has finished firing on target #1, Shooter #1 will shoot at a second, different target. Then Shooter #2, then Shooter #3. Once a shooter (here Shooter #1) has completed shooting Target #2, they pull their gear off the line and score for the next Shooter (here shooter #4) who is moving their gear up to the line to prepare and get ready to shoot.
Number of targets planned beyond 1500 yards: 7
(1501 - 1600, 1800 - 1900, 2100 – 2200, 2500 - 2600, 2900, 3200, 3525) (approximate distances – subject to change – to be published/announced when Match materials have been finalized in the next few weeks.)
 
Absolutely. We will convey the target distances prior to the match, but you will be welcome to range them yourself.
 
I would be up for something like this. 3 days might be a stretch though, especially for people traveling longer than a few hours to the match.

Two other questions would be what size targets were you planning on using and what type of impact indicators have you looked into using?


Edit: Just saw target sizing will be 36"x36".
 
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We'll be using a target impact signal, which is basically a bright flash of light to indicate hits.
 
Dan

With all of the buzz of the King of 2 Mile it is good to see more ELR/ULR events developing, another started in TX. as well shortly after the KO2M filled fast in its registration a few weeks back. If it comes down to possibly having to trim your program as you stated towards the bottom, I might suggest 3 rounds on the attempt versus 5 and scored 5-3-1. The 36" targets are generous in size close up and close to moa on the extended, like JeffVN stated there should be a good size group moving up to the next stage. One advantage I see is the 2nd & 3rd shooter of the squad may have an advantage of watching for trace some while laying there waiting for their turn to fire. You have not mentioned, what is the plan for allowed spotting and correction call - is the shooter all on his own and responsible of getting back on target after recoil to see his own impact or is the shooter allowed to have one spotter behind him calling the correction needed for the next attempt? Also something you might want to throw out there is what is allowed on the line - The equipment must be carried to the line yes, but from there what happens, A rifle with a typical Atlas or Harris and then a rear bag used versus the opposite seen - a rifle with a F-Class solid front and adjustable shooting rest and rear base. Also under the time restraint is the shooter the only person allowed to adjust any of the rest and his or hers scope turrets? I know I threw a bunch out there but it's easier for you to lay it out now what will be the procedure on the line versus later. For the record I'm fine with the standard Harris or Atlas style and rear bag and a shooter responsible for all of his own position changes needed on the equipment. Allowing one spotter behind him to call the shot would be ok versus nothing.

Just thought I would throw a few things out there

Cheers
oneshot.onehit
 
We've been thinking about this for a while; trying to improve, at least in concept, of what we think a good ELR match should be. That said, this survey and what we actually get for registrations will determine the number of shots on target in a given time frame. "Time is infinite, yet there never seems to be enough of it". We can run X number of shooters through Y number of shots in a given time allotment. That is the equation that we are trying to solve. It won't be solved until we have registrations in hand, but we can estimate by gauging the results of this survey (posted in other forums too).
While we have not fully completed the program (this is also helping with that), the plan is to allow one or two spotters for each shooter. We do not want to make it a requirement, as some may not want to utilize that option. In the event that a shooter cannot provide a spotter, we will do our best to provide one.
As far as F-Class rigs vs bi-pod style shooting, this is a 'run what you brung' event. We do not want to limit this event based on equipment other than the 50 caliber cartridge limit. At that point, it should not matter who adjusts your sights; shooter or spotter; that should be up to the registrant. There is no reason that your spotter couldn't help with gear movement either. Ultimately, the shooter (& spotter) has a specific time allotment (say 15 minutes) to come to the line, setup, read conditions, and put shots on target. What you do with that 15 minutes is up to you. Further, the shooter scores for the competitor following his relay, so the shooter has nothing to do prior to his relay but get prepared, so there should be no real time issues to pressure anyone. And by scoring for the subsequent shooter, you won't have to move very far after completion of your relay.
Thank you for your input, it is all very helpful.
 
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The most exciting handgun matches I've shot were American Handgunner style steel matches. Man on man, winner goes forward. The first URSA match was shot in a similar way, several relays, one target, one shot per shooter before the next shooters turn, one shooter per relay goes forward, no points carried forward. Aside from being a very intense way to shoot a match, it does the best job of evenly spreading the conditions among the shooters. It also shuts down the next most despised aspect of range shooting after walking them in, pelting the target with a rapid fire string to avoid dealing with conditions.

This is also a scalable format for match administration, with the potential to add fewer minutes to the match per additional shooter.

Size the relays so the last shoot off is at the last target.

After the main match is concluded, consolation rounds could be shot as time allowed to give the guys eliminated early some range time.

Starting at 1200 yards with a 36" target, you'll probably need some sort of tie breaking mechanism. A smaller target would work. If 2 or more shooters run the 36", go to an 18". First hit or miss decides it. I'm not sure how to handle it on the other end if there are no hits at the farthest range. Maybe go back to the last distance there were hits at.