Has anyone heard of a rifle miss firing do to water getting in the barrel and not allowing the projectile too exit the cartridge,And when operator opens the the bolt it explodes out the back of the rifle. I have heard of two incidents and I would like to learn more about what went wrong or what caused it. Thank You
Gunsmithing Exploading rifle question.
- Thread starter JROYCE
- Start date
Re: Exploading rifle question.
Dude, we are talking tens of thousands of pounds per square inch pressure when fired. Water isn't going to stop the projectile from exiting...EVER. Lastly, all that pressure is not just going to sit around waiting for someone to open the bolt. If there is enough pressure to eject the bolt into the shooter's face, the bolt is not going to be able to be opened by a mortal at that point anyway. Where do people hear this stuff?
Josh
Dude, we are talking tens of thousands of pounds per square inch pressure when fired. Water isn't going to stop the projectile from exiting...EVER. Lastly, all that pressure is not just going to sit around waiting for someone to open the bolt. If there is enough pressure to eject the bolt into the shooter's face, the bolt is not going to be able to be opened by a mortal at that point anyway. Where do people hear this stuff?
Josh
Re: Exploading rifle question.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JROYCE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That’s what I thought as well. But I heard the information from a recent SWAT training class instructor that he stated he has seen firsthand. </div></div>
Well, that just about sums this thread up! 2 minutes of my life that I will never get back...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JROYCE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That’s what I thought as well. But I heard the information from a recent SWAT training class instructor that he stated he has seen firsthand. </div></div>
Well, that just about sums this thread up! 2 minutes of my life that I will never get back...
Re: Exploading rifle question.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JROYCE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To me it was a legitimate question. I'am sorry i wasted two minutes of your life. </div></div>
No need to be sorry...
It was actually a rediculous question...It is even more rediculous that you would believe it because a "swat" instructor told you.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JROYCE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To me it was a legitimate question. I'am sorry i wasted two minutes of your life. </div></div>
No need to be sorry...
It was actually a rediculous question...It is even more rediculous that you would believe it because a "swat" instructor told you.
Re: Exploading rifle question.
I thought it was suspect myself, but I was just soliciting for an opinion for the cause and if it was possible. In truth is I’m not sorry, the general purpose for this forum is to socialize and seek assistance from those that may have more experience than others. It’s a shame that you would rather insult someone than to help or offer an objective opinion.
I thought it was suspect myself, but I was just soliciting for an opinion for the cause and if it was possible. In truth is I’m not sorry, the general purpose for this forum is to socialize and seek assistance from those that may have more experience than others. It’s a shame that you would rather insult someone than to help or offer an objective opinion.
Re: Exploading rifle question.
Well...
If you pull the trigger on a live round and it doesn't fire...that is a serious predicament.
There is a phenomenon known as a "hang fire"...it's not particularly related to water in the barrel, but what can occur is that when the trigger is pulled, the firing pin impacts the primer, but the round does not fire for some reason.
If the bolt is then cycled, it can jar the still smoldering round and the worst possible case can happen, that the round fires when the bolt is out-of-battery, and a nasty explosion results.
The safety drill is not to open the bolt right away and to wait a few minutes and tap or shake the rifle a few times before opening the bolt.
I've seen much evidence of this at the range, rounds with primer indentations laying among the spent brass. Those rounds may have light strikes, or may actually be dead primers, or primers with no compound. I have a loaded factory 357 round in my possession with a primer that fired and was pierced and blown back...no flash hole in the case. These rounds didn't explode, but I hope all these folks observed the proper safety rule.
Generally, if this happens to you, stop what you are doing and call for the RO.
TC
Well...
If you pull the trigger on a live round and it doesn't fire...that is a serious predicament.
There is a phenomenon known as a "hang fire"...it's not particularly related to water in the barrel, but what can occur is that when the trigger is pulled, the firing pin impacts the primer, but the round does not fire for some reason.
If the bolt is then cycled, it can jar the still smoldering round and the worst possible case can happen, that the round fires when the bolt is out-of-battery, and a nasty explosion results.
The safety drill is not to open the bolt right away and to wait a few minutes and tap or shake the rifle a few times before opening the bolt.
I've seen much evidence of this at the range, rounds with primer indentations laying among the spent brass. Those rounds may have light strikes, or may actually be dead primers, or primers with no compound. I have a loaded factory 357 round in my possession with a primer that fired and was pierced and blown back...no flash hole in the case. These rounds didn't explode, but I hope all these folks observed the proper safety rule.
Generally, if this happens to you, stop what you are doing and call for the RO.
TC
Re: Exploading rifle question.
Took a while to open this one up, we were really unsure what was going on.
Took a while to open this one up, we were really unsure what was going on.
Re: Exploading rifle question.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poke</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Took a while to open this one up, we were really unsure what was going on.
</div></div>
That round looks Berdan primed. How old was it? Some older or foreign ammo that is berdan primed can be corrosive and do all kinds of crazy shit if exposed to moisture. I've been told that generally the primer is the corrosive part of such a round. I've seen old berdan primed ammo that had green rings around the primers and when you scraped away that ring it exposed corrosion damage to the actual primer and primer cup. I could imagine such a round blowing the primer out upon firing. I didn't fire any of the rounds I had with that green ring so I don't know this for sure. The ammo in question was 7.62X54R.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poke</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Took a while to open this one up, we were really unsure what was going on.
</div></div>
That round looks Berdan primed. How old was it? Some older or foreign ammo that is berdan primed can be corrosive and do all kinds of crazy shit if exposed to moisture. I've been told that generally the primer is the corrosive part of such a round. I've seen old berdan primed ammo that had green rings around the primers and when you scraped away that ring it exposed corrosion damage to the actual primer and primer cup. I could imagine such a round blowing the primer out upon firing. I didn't fire any of the rounds I had with that green ring so I don't know this for sure. The ammo in question was 7.62X54R.
Re: Exploading rifle question.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poke</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Took a while to open this one up, we were really unsure what was going on.
</div></div>
That round looks Berdan primed. How old was it? Some older or foreign ammo that is berdan primed can be corrosive and do all kinds of crazy shit if exposed to moisture. I've been told that generally the primer is the corrosive part of such a round. I've seen old berdan primed ammo that had green rings around the primers and when you scraped away that ring it exposed corrosion damage to the actual primer and primer cup. I could imagine such a round blowing the primer out upon firing. I didn't fire any of the rounds I had with that green ring so I don't know this for sure. The ammo in question was 7.62X54R. </div></div>
Standard 7.62X54R is real bad for corroding primers. Especially the surplus stuff.
The slightly more expencive sivler tipped stuff that I run through a PSL seems to last a lot longer.
I throw away any of the rounds that get the green corroding around the primer.
Not to turn this into a 7.62X54R discussion just examples of the corroding:
Silver tipped higher quality ammo on the left and the mil surplus on the right:
You should be able to see the corrsion on the ball surplus primmer on the right. Both rounds were purchased about the same time, with in a month of each other at the most (can not attest to the date of manufacture) and have been kept dry and free from mositure. I only fire the Silver Tipped stuff from the PSL.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poke</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Took a while to open this one up, we were really unsure what was going on.
</div></div>
That round looks Berdan primed. How old was it? Some older or foreign ammo that is berdan primed can be corrosive and do all kinds of crazy shit if exposed to moisture. I've been told that generally the primer is the corrosive part of such a round. I've seen old berdan primed ammo that had green rings around the primers and when you scraped away that ring it exposed corrosion damage to the actual primer and primer cup. I could imagine such a round blowing the primer out upon firing. I didn't fire any of the rounds I had with that green ring so I don't know this for sure. The ammo in question was 7.62X54R. </div></div>
Standard 7.62X54R is real bad for corroding primers. Especially the surplus stuff.
The slightly more expencive sivler tipped stuff that I run through a PSL seems to last a lot longer.
I throw away any of the rounds that get the green corroding around the primer.
Not to turn this into a 7.62X54R discussion just examples of the corroding:
Silver tipped higher quality ammo on the left and the mil surplus on the right:
You should be able to see the corrsion on the ball surplus primmer on the right. Both rounds were purchased about the same time, with in a month of each other at the most (can not attest to the date of manufacture) and have been kept dry and free from mositure. I only fire the Silver Tipped stuff from the PSL.
Re: Exploading rifle question.
Not a berdan primer. From what I can tell from the pic (crappy focus on the cartridge, and I suck at photoshop) it looks like a 6.5x284 Norma case from Nosler with a Boxer primer. Either the primer was in backwards or the primer case is gone.
What I'm thinking happened is the case is a 6.5x284 and the chamber is a 6.5x55 Mauser. Case dimensions are close enough that a determined shooter should be able to close the bolt, but load differences would likely cause enough overpressure to lock the bolt in place and loosen the primer.
My $.02. I'd like to hear what actually happened.
Not a berdan primer. From what I can tell from the pic (crappy focus on the cartridge, and I suck at photoshop) it looks like a 6.5x284 Norma case from Nosler with a Boxer primer. Either the primer was in backwards or the primer case is gone.
What I'm thinking happened is the case is a 6.5x284 and the chamber is a 6.5x55 Mauser. Case dimensions are close enough that a determined shooter should be able to close the bolt, but load differences would likely cause enough overpressure to lock the bolt in place and loosen the primer.
My $.02. I'd like to hear what actually happened.
Re: Exploading rifle question.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poke</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Took a while to open this one up, we were really unsure what was going on.
</div></div>
That round looks Berdan primed. How old was it? Some older or foreign ammo that is berdan primed can be corrosive and do all kinds of crazy shit if exposed to moisture. I've been told that generally the primer is the corrosive part of such a round. I've seen old berdan primed ammo that had green rings around the primers and when you scraped away that ring it exposed corrosion damage to the actual primer and primer cup. I could imagine such a round blowing the primer out upon firing. I didn't fire any of the rounds I had with that green ring so I don't know this for sure. The ammo in question was 7.62X54R. </div></div>
Looks like a primer seated upside down to me.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poke</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Took a while to open this one up, we were really unsure what was going on.
</div></div>
That round looks Berdan primed. How old was it? Some older or foreign ammo that is berdan primed can be corrosive and do all kinds of crazy shit if exposed to moisture. I've been told that generally the primer is the corrosive part of such a round. I've seen old berdan primed ammo that had green rings around the primers and when you scraped away that ring it exposed corrosion damage to the actual primer and primer cup. I could imagine such a round blowing the primer out upon firing. I didn't fire any of the rounds I had with that green ring so I don't know this for sure. The ammo in question was 7.62X54R. </div></div>
Looks like a primer seated upside down to me.
Re: Exploading rifle question.
Good observation. That hadn't even occured to me. But I think you're right.
Good observation. That hadn't even occured to me. But I think you're right.
Re: Exploading rifle question.
Red,
I agree as to what it looks like, but why would a primer in backwards cause any issue with opening the action, as oneshot said had to happen?
Red,
I agree as to what it looks like, but why would a primer in backwards cause any issue with opening the action, as oneshot said had to happen?
Re: Exploading rifle question.
water in a barrel or even wet ammo can seriously raise pressure and cause issues. a rifle exploding when the bolt is opened is not one of the issues i could think of that would relate to water in the bore.
water in a barrel or even wet ammo can seriously raise pressure and cause issues. a rifle exploding when the bolt is opened is not one of the issues i could think of that would relate to water in the bore.
Re: Exploading rifle question.
Water in a handgun barrel can cause the barrel to bulge. The water cannot move out of the way fast enough for the bullet and the water gets pushed between the bullet and the barrel causing a slight bulge. The barrel should be safe to fire afterwards but should still be replaced asap and accuracy would be horrible. ymmv
Water in a handgun barrel can cause the barrel to bulge. The water cannot move out of the way fast enough for the bullet and the water gets pushed between the bullet and the barrel causing a slight bulge. The barrel should be safe to fire afterwards but should still be replaced asap and accuracy would be horrible. ymmv
Re: Exploading rifle question.
Water in the chamber, or the barrel, is a bad thing.
But I've never heard of a rifle waiting to explode until the operator works the bolt.
Of course, if a SWAT instructor said so, then it must be true.
Then again, there's the guy in the pool that shoots his Glock underwater...
Water in the chamber, or the barrel, is a bad thing.
But I've never heard of a rifle waiting to explode until the operator works the bolt.
Of course, if a SWAT instructor said so, then it must be true.
Then again, there's the guy in the pool that shoots his Glock underwater...
Re: Exploading rifle question.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Glock_and_roll</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JROYCE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To me it was a legitimate question. I'am sorry i wasted two minutes of your life. </div></div>
No need to be sorry...
It was actually a rediculous question...It is even more rediculous that you would believe it because a "swat" instructor told you. </div></div>
<span style="font-style: italic">If you're going to try to make fun of someone, you should at least learn to spell first....</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Glock_and_roll</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JROYCE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To me it was a legitimate question. I'am sorry i wasted two minutes of your life. </div></div>
No need to be sorry...
It was actually a rediculous question...It is even more rediculous that you would believe it because a "swat" instructor told you. </div></div>
<span style="font-style: italic">If you're going to try to make fun of someone, you should at least learn to spell first....</span>
Re: Exploading rifle question.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hink</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Red,
I agree as to what it looks like, but why would a primer in backwards cause any issue with opening the action, as oneshot said had to happen? </div></div>
I didn't read it as the action being hard to open, but rather that they took a while before opening the action as a precaution due to the 'puff' rather than the 'bang'. That's common practice to keep from being surprised by a hangfire. Unless I'm in a competition or practicing immediate action drills, that's what I do with a misfire, too. I've never had one turn out to be a hangfire, but I've witnessed one that almost had tragic consequences.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hink</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Red,
I agree as to what it looks like, but why would a primer in backwards cause any issue with opening the action, as oneshot said had to happen? </div></div>
I didn't read it as the action being hard to open, but rather that they took a while before opening the action as a precaution due to the 'puff' rather than the 'bang'. That's common practice to keep from being surprised by a hangfire. Unless I'm in a competition or practicing immediate action drills, that's what I do with a misfire, too. I've never had one turn out to be a hangfire, but I've witnessed one that almost had tragic consequences.
Re: Exploading rifle question.
I have had a hangfire with a 300 win mag. I was shooting at a cow moose and snap, the firing pin dropped but no bang. It took about 2 seconds before it cooked off. I wish I could say that a hang-fire instantly came to mind, but I don't actually remember thinking that, but I waited to rack another in and I am glad I did.
I have had a hangfire with a 300 win mag. I was shooting at a cow moose and snap, the firing pin dropped but no bang. It took about 2 seconds before it cooked off. I wish I could say that a hang-fire instantly came to mind, but I don't actually remember thinking that, but I waited to rack another in and I am glad I did.
Re: Exploading rifle question.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chpprguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Glock_and_roll</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JROYCE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To me it was a legitimate question. I'am sorry i wasted two minutes of your life. </div></div>
No need to be sorry...
It was actually a rediculous question...It is even more rediculous that you would believe it because a "swat" instructor told you. </div></div>
<span style="font-style: italic">If you're going to try to make fun of someone, you should at least learn to spell first....</span></div></div>
Hey, I reasemble that wemark.. Jus kiddeng...hahaha..SmokeRolls
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chpprguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Glock_and_roll</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JROYCE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To me it was a legitimate question. I'am sorry i wasted two minutes of your life. </div></div>
No need to be sorry...
It was actually a rediculous question...It is even more rediculous that you would believe it because a "swat" instructor told you. </div></div>
<span style="font-style: italic">If you're going to try to make fun of someone, you should at least learn to spell first....</span></div></div>
Hey, I reasemble that wemark.. Jus kiddeng...hahaha..SmokeRolls
Re: Exploading rifle question.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Red_SC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Looks like a primer seated upside down to me. </div></div>
Primer is upside down. Was hanging out with a friend on one of my R&R's from Iraq and he was loading. Went out to snap the caps and all was well till he pulled the trigger and smoke poured out of the back of the action. We let it sit a while before opening it up. In my reloading setup the rounds are primer pocket up until I dump powder in them my FIL does not understand why I do it and gives me shit about keeping them upside down, but I have seen this scenario twice and neither time I was doing the loading.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Red_SC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Looks like a primer seated upside down to me. </div></div>
Primer is upside down. Was hanging out with a friend on one of my R&R's from Iraq and he was loading. Went out to snap the caps and all was well till he pulled the trigger and smoke poured out of the back of the action. We let it sit a while before opening it up. In my reloading setup the rounds are primer pocket up until I dump powder in them my FIL does not understand why I do it and gives me shit about keeping them upside down, but I have seen this scenario twice and neither time I was doing the loading.
Re: Exploading rifle question.
I've had a couple of those turn up in my Dillon 550 when loading pistol rounds- for some reason I have a hard time getting the large primer feeder running right, but the small primer setup works great. Somehow I must have jostled it wrong and flipped one over somehow. I've always caught them before putting them into the magazine, though.
When I was a kid, we had been running deer with dogs one day, and still had a pack of dogs out when a bunch of us met back up at the clubhouse. We heard the dogs coming our direction, so one guy grabbed his shotgun and walked a couple hundred yards down the dirt road. When the dogs got close, he suddenly pointed the shotgun into the woods for a second, then lowered it and turned towards us. Just then, the shotgun went off, directly down the road towards us. He'd tried to shoot the deer, but the shotgun didn't go off for a couple of seconds until he was facing us. He said the buckshot had been in his truck toolbox for a number of years. One of the guys that was closer to him heard the buckshot as it came by.
I've had a couple of those turn up in my Dillon 550 when loading pistol rounds- for some reason I have a hard time getting the large primer feeder running right, but the small primer setup works great. Somehow I must have jostled it wrong and flipped one over somehow. I've always caught them before putting them into the magazine, though.
When I was a kid, we had been running deer with dogs one day, and still had a pack of dogs out when a bunch of us met back up at the clubhouse. We heard the dogs coming our direction, so one guy grabbed his shotgun and walked a couple hundred yards down the dirt road. When the dogs got close, he suddenly pointed the shotgun into the woods for a second, then lowered it and turned towards us. Just then, the shotgun went off, directly down the road towards us. He'd tried to shoot the deer, but the shotgun didn't go off for a couple of seconds until he was facing us. He said the buckshot had been in his truck toolbox for a number of years. One of the guys that was closer to him heard the buckshot as it came by.
Re: Exploading rifle question.
yeah ive had a couple that ended up loaded upside down but they went in real easy so i popped the case out and looked at the primer to see why it went in so easy
yeah ive had a couple that ended up loaded upside down but they went in real easy so i popped the case out and looked at the primer to see why it went in so easy
Re: Exploading rifle question.
Evidently you guys have a clearer screen than I do and I guess it is a upside down primer but...........
Several things will give similar residue around primers I haven't seen mentioned yet but have seen in actual firing are:
Cases being too long and not trimmed jamming into end of chamber and raising the pressure. Try seating another primer, pocket should be very loose if it was from pressure.
A few drops of water in barrel shouldn't do it unless rifle is submerged, raised out of water and fired without opening bolt and letting water drain out. If bolt is not opened it will act like a straw with one end being plugged.
High pressure rounds are followed by hard bolt opening to very hard bolt opening.
I have see guys having to beat bolts open from high pressure.
Now wet ammo will do the same thing. If bolt face is wet the round cannot grip the bolt face and water will allow case head to open up causing leakage.
I got caught in a match at Perry and had a alibi and had to shoot the alibi relay. By the time the alibi relay was called to the line it was raining like a cow on a flat rock. Rifle was dripping water, ammo was wet etc. I knew I was going to lose all the brass if I fired the string and in retrospect I should have accepted previous score and moved on as when I fired first shot glasses were covered with oil and a good sight picture could not be had.
For kicks I looked at brass and it all showed black around primers with the pockets having got bigger. No hard opening as it was a rapid fire match. I left it laying.
I have also seen this condition on new once fired cases with soft case heads. I have had primers fall out of new cases on first shot in 30.06 with 53 gr. 4350 under 190 which is not a hot load in anyone's book.
The worst condition is loading a case that has been in a fire. That is the hairy part of brass scrounging. I won't pick up anything I didn't see fired or know the history of. A case that has been in a fire and reloaded is a grenade waiting to let go and it doesn't take a high pressure round to have an expanded head all the way up to a complete head failure.
I worked a catastrophic failure investigation once on M16A1.
Case head turned plastic, bowed out upper receiver, blew mag out bottom of rifle into shooters arm but bolt held in place. Looked down barrel and could not see through it. Took it to industrial X ray and we photographed the middle of barrel from the side and got a perfect picture of a bullet nose to nose with a cleaning rod jag with a patch on it.
THE OUTSIDE OF THE BARREL SHOWED ABSOLUTELY NO EXPANSION AT ALL and it all happened at mid point in barrel.
SWAT instructor's opinions are less valid than politicians. I have had federal agents come in and complain their 9MM wouldn't function reliably. When examined they had 380 ammo in mag and some says 9MM. I was amazed that they could not comprehend that just because it said 9MM, doesn't mean it is all the same.
Funny part one guy said his worked fine until he changed brands and then got short cycles.
Evidently you guys have a clearer screen than I do and I guess it is a upside down primer but...........
Several things will give similar residue around primers I haven't seen mentioned yet but have seen in actual firing are:
Cases being too long and not trimmed jamming into end of chamber and raising the pressure. Try seating another primer, pocket should be very loose if it was from pressure.
A few drops of water in barrel shouldn't do it unless rifle is submerged, raised out of water and fired without opening bolt and letting water drain out. If bolt is not opened it will act like a straw with one end being plugged.
High pressure rounds are followed by hard bolt opening to very hard bolt opening.
I have see guys having to beat bolts open from high pressure.
Now wet ammo will do the same thing. If bolt face is wet the round cannot grip the bolt face and water will allow case head to open up causing leakage.
I got caught in a match at Perry and had a alibi and had to shoot the alibi relay. By the time the alibi relay was called to the line it was raining like a cow on a flat rock. Rifle was dripping water, ammo was wet etc. I knew I was going to lose all the brass if I fired the string and in retrospect I should have accepted previous score and moved on as when I fired first shot glasses were covered with oil and a good sight picture could not be had.
For kicks I looked at brass and it all showed black around primers with the pockets having got bigger. No hard opening as it was a rapid fire match. I left it laying.
I have also seen this condition on new once fired cases with soft case heads. I have had primers fall out of new cases on first shot in 30.06 with 53 gr. 4350 under 190 which is not a hot load in anyone's book.
The worst condition is loading a case that has been in a fire. That is the hairy part of brass scrounging. I won't pick up anything I didn't see fired or know the history of. A case that has been in a fire and reloaded is a grenade waiting to let go and it doesn't take a high pressure round to have an expanded head all the way up to a complete head failure.
I worked a catastrophic failure investigation once on M16A1.
Case head turned plastic, bowed out upper receiver, blew mag out bottom of rifle into shooters arm but bolt held in place. Looked down barrel and could not see through it. Took it to industrial X ray and we photographed the middle of barrel from the side and got a perfect picture of a bullet nose to nose with a cleaning rod jag with a patch on it.
THE OUTSIDE OF THE BARREL SHOWED ABSOLUTELY NO EXPANSION AT ALL and it all happened at mid point in barrel.
SWAT instructor's opinions are less valid than politicians. I have had federal agents come in and complain their 9MM wouldn't function reliably. When examined they had 380 ammo in mag and some says 9MM. I was amazed that they could not comprehend that just because it said 9MM, doesn't mean it is all the same.
Funny part one guy said his worked fine until he changed brands and then got short cycles.
