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F T/R Competition F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

scaxeman

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
May 26, 2008
370
1
Oregon
www.usftrclass.com
All F-T/R Shooters,

I've been thinking about this for a while. I've been seeing bullet weights and bullet designs change and improve, and it occurs to me that the rule set that was adopted based on technology 8+ years ago might not be working as well as it once did.

In my opinion, F-T/R branched off of F-Open for a reason; people wanted a 'limited' equipment version of the game, that wouldn't bankrupt them paying for new barrels 2-3x per year. Basically it would be something that would be more of a NASCAR, vs. the top fuel dragsters that F-Open trends towards.

At the time, a 190 was a *very* heavy bullet for a .308, and their wasn't a huge difference in wind drift between a fast 155 and a slow 190. There was a distaste for limiting bullet weight (certainly shared by myself), with the thought being that allowing some innovation and 'tinkering' room would help grow the sport. Well, it certainly has!

Even up to a couple of years ago, the 155's were most of what you saw on the line. This is still generally true today, my go-to competition load is a *fast* 155.5 (~3125 fps). With this, I don't have a whole lot of trouble keeping up with guys running up to 200 grain loads. There is a trade-off, of course, the 'heavies' go through the wind a bit better, but the 'lights' group a heck of a lot better (in general). These trade-offs kept an even playing field.

Now, with a new crop of *very* efficient 'uber-heavy' bullets coming on line (215 grain, 230 grain, etc.), the level playing field has developed a bit of a list...

Backing up a bit, it has always been my thought that one should be able to take a 'more or less' factory rifle, GOOD quality handloads, and the same wind-reading skills as anyone else on the line, be very competitive in F-T/R. As most know, I have been running a bone-stock factory rifle (as well as the rest of Team Savage) for the past 6+ years. It doesn't matter whether you prefer Remington, Savage, or any other maker, you should be able to get into the sport relatively inexpensively, and be competitive with a 'more or less' unmodified rifle, running some sort of a "standard" recipe for a load.

With the growing popularity of the 'uber-heavy' bullets, this philosophy is starting to go out the window. In order to run the uber-heavies, you will be required at a minimum to get a gunsmith to re-cut at least the throat of your chamber, then you are stuck with a tiny number of projectiles that will work in the rifle. From experience, testing the 215's and 230's, I see that while it is *possible* to get them tuned perfectly, and get both velocity and decent accuracy out of them, I worry that these are going to turn out to be the "90 grain .223" bullet project of the day.

The "list" to the level playing field comes with the phenomenal ballistics that the uber-heavies (for instance, a 230 grain Berger Hybrid) bring to the game. If you can get the 230 going relatively quickly (2500-2600 fps), and it definitely CAN be done, you are looking at approximately a 30-40% reduction in wind drift over *any* bullet lighter than 200 grains. The vertical groups are a little worse than the current crop of heavies (185-200 grain), but not much worse. In a very real way, we will be exchanging our exceptionally accurate current style of .308, for something less accurate, but able to shoot through conditions more easily. Is that where we want to go as a class?


People that want to be competitive will feel compelled to drop the expense of modifying their rifles, and not have any guarantee that their mods will turn out to be effective. We will have strayed from our successful initial model for F-T/R, as a class for 'shooter vs. shooter' competition, and be marching down the road that you must have a $5000 custom to be remotely competitive. I think that this would in the long run be very destructive to the class we've developed.

The rules as they stand now will be in effect for at *least* the next year and a half (nothing should - or can- change prior to the 2013 World Championships next year). Given the massive outpouring of dissatisfaction on how the last rule change (course of fire change) happened, I figure that getting the public discussion started early rather than later would be a good thing. What I would particularly like to avoid is people dumping vast chunks of change into modifying all of their equipment to run uber-heavies, then find out "whoops! there's been a rule change".

The rule change I would probably propose (both for US "NRA" Competition, and "ICFRA" International Competition), assuming that the general consensus is in favor, would read as follows:

Current:
<span style="color: #000099">A rifle restricted to the chambers of unmodified .308 Winchester/7.62mm
NATO or unmodified .223 Remington/5.56mm X 45 NATO cartridge cases. The rifle must be fired off a
bipod, rigidly attached to the rifle’s for-end, and/or a sling. Any bipod, meeting the definition of a bipod,
may be used but its weight must be included in the rifle’s overall weight. Any safe, manually operated
trigger is permitted. Any sighting system is permitted, but it must be included in the rifle’s overall weight.</span>

Proposed:
<span style="color: #006600">A rifle restricted to the chambers of unmodified .308 Winchester/7.62mm
NATO or unmodified .223 Remington/5.56mm X 45 NATO cartridge cases.</span> <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #990000">For .308/7.62mm NATO, a maximum permitted bullet weight of less than 201 grains. </span></span> <span style="color: #006600">The rifle must be fired off a
bipod, rigidly attached to the rifle’s for-end, and/or a sling. Any bipod, meeting the definition of a bipod,
may be used but its weight must be included in the rifle’s overall weight. Any safe, manually operated
trigger is permitted. Any sighting system is permitted, but it must be included in the rifle’s overall weight.</span>

Thoughts?

Good shooting to all,

Darrell Buell
Captain, Team USA F-T/R




 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

For the good of the sport, I'd vote for the 201gr. cap as proposed.

On a more personal level, I'd love to somehow compete with everyone using the exact same equipment, regardless of what it is. An impossibility, but the ideal is attractive.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

I voted for the 156gn cap, especially for International competition. Keeping it somewhat apples-to-apples with Palma & Fullbore/TR.

Second choice would be 201gn
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

Because all F-Class shooters would be subject to any new load restriction, I think that an important consideration would be the range of competitors it will affect the most. For example, who are the competitors most likely to start (or continue) using the uber-heavies (>201 gr)? I doubt that a large percentage of average local competitors are going to sink the time, effort, and $$$ into an optimized rig for shooting the heavies, as well as load development. Thus, the proposed rule change would probably have only a minimal impact at the local F-Class level. It would most likely have a larger potential effect on competitors at the regional/national level. In fact, because many competitors at that level are not yet using the uber-heavy loads, limiting projectile weight to 201 gr would not change much even at that level. So my vote is for the 201 gr cap, because it would affect or change things for only a small number of competitors, while still allowing those that might not have the $$$ or time to develop a system for the heavies to be competitive. To me, dropping the limit to 156 gr for everyone is just crazy talk (LOL). I and I'm sure a lot of others would basically have to start over from scratch if that limit were implemented.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

Newbie here, but do SAAMI chamber dimensions include the throat? Seems to me that a spec that limited overall length from bolt face to the start of the lands would necessarily limit bullet length (and by corollary, bullet weight.)

A competitor could always seat the uber-heavy bullets deeper, but the loss of case volume would limit velocity, and thus put them on more of an even playing field with the lighter, faster bullets.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

I'm currently shooting the various 155 bullets due to my choice of 1/13 twist rate on my barrel. My next barrel is on order and I plan to run the 185 Bergers. Although both of these are well within the proposed rule, I voted to leave the unlimited bullet weight. I like the rules as they currently are. If guys are willing to gamble that they can come up with a heavy load, they should be able to compete with it. In a few years when every possible combination of bullet, powder, primer, brass, barrel, etc. has been used and the dust has settled, we will see which works the best. I would hate to take this possibility away because of a rule change.

By the way, I sincerely appreciate you opening a discussion on this before proposing the rule. Transparency is always a good thing when it comes to any rule changes.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eracer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">do SAAMI chamber dimensions include the throat? </div></div>

At this point, the rules state "<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #CC0000">unmodified</span></span> .308 Winchester/7.62mm
NATO or unmodified .223 Remington/5.56mm X 45 NATO <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #CC0000">cartridge cases</span></span>"

This has led to the interpretation (one I ascribe to) that you can modify your throat if you like, but the case itself must not be modified in any way, specifically, not to increase the volume of the case.

As with anything, it can be a compromise. You can throat your chamber out so that you only have .050" bearing surface of the bullet left in the case in order to maximize case volume, but now you have a very fragile round that could have reliability issues if it gets knocked (with the pretty common LIGHT neck tensions [.0015" -ish] that are in vogue these days)

Darrell
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

I voted with you Monte. I think the spirit of the FTR rules should always put an emphasis on shooting skills/wind reading and the 156 limit would do that. If you want to shoot 230's put them in a .300WSM and shoot in open. Open is already a gear game and we don't need two classes like that.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

I voted for 201 limit, but the more I think about it, the more appealing a 156 limit is. That would be the definition of shooter vs shooter. Also, less for someone to worry about if they are deciding to get into F/TR and reloading
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

I vote for 156 limit.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

my vote would not matter as I only shoot a Mouse gun out to 1k....80g 223
wink.gif
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

I'll go even further and I would ask that anyone challenge this logic. If you look at fullbore, people shoot the 155's. No one as far as I know shoots anything lower. If you cap the weight limit at 201, and if you use what has happened at fullbore as the precedent, eventually everyone will end up shooting the 200 grain hybrids or another comparable bullet as soon as they can figure out a load for it. This will effectively end shooting for anything below the 200's. In fact, if you set a weight limit, everyone will end up shooting at whatever the weight limit is, 201 or 156 or whatever. If that is the case then consider this. The majority of the FTR competitions today take place at 600 yards. There is a dearth of 1000 yard ranges and even the ranges that do allow 1000 yard shooting hold most of their competitions at 600. Once everyone figures out what the load is for a 200 grain bullet, you are going to effectively kill 600 yard shooting, which I think would in addition kill FTR shooting or at the very least kill the growth. The reason for this is with the high BC of the 200's, once you get it shooting well, the 600 yard contests will be a trigger pulling contest for everyone. Who wants that? At the range I shoot at we're already seeing the effects of the 185's with scores increasing dramatically with multiple high range master scores per competition. I know that you think the 155's will still "hang" with the 185's, and you are right they are competitive, but Stuart Anslem and Jeff Rorer won both the European and US Nationals last year using the 185's and almost everyone I know is moving to them. It's only a matter of time before people start moving up even further. I think Jeff is already in the process of making that jump. If that is the case I think it only makes sense to leave the rules as they are and let everyone try and play catch up with the new bullet designs, or cap the limit at 156, which is what I would like to see. If the limit isn't capped at 156, I would at least like to see a joint proposal with the new rule that a fullbore class be created, so 600 yard shooting is still enjoyable and challenging.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

A 156 gr limit would also preclude an awful lot of people that might otherwise participate in F-Class, particularly at the local level, that don't reload. If you look, there are very few commercial offerings that would satisfy a 156 gr limit; CorBon, Lapua, and Bryan Litz' Fullbore, to name three. These loads are also VERY expensive.

So, <span style="font-style: italic">exactly what is the intended purpose for modifying the projectile weight limit?</span>

Is it only aimed at the top national-, or international-level shooters that are most likely to be the ones running super heavy loads? At this point in time, you could probably get away with limiting the weight to 201 gr without affecting all that many people, which is the only reason I personally would entertain the idea of such a change. However, it's worth noting here that the Rules weren't written solely for top level competitors, but anyone that wants to get involved and participate in F-Class shooting events here in the U.S.A.

Is it to "level" the playing field with the idea that skill, and skill alone, is the primary factor that determines the outcome of a match? Sorry, but it's doubtful that going to a 156 gr limit would do that unless you also change the rules to limit every competitor to using a specific make and model of rifle, bipod, scope, etc. How long until that idea is proposed? The bottom line is that without going to that length, you're never going to really level the playing field. Trust me, you really don't want to go down that path, anyhow. It's called socialism and it doesn't work. Going to a 156 gr limit would most likely preclude a lot of shooters at the local level that can currently show up at a match with their Remmy 700 and FGMM 175s, do reasonably well, and have a great time competing. Isn't that a big part of what this sport is about?

F-Class is currently probably one of the fastest growing shooting sports. It seems to me that one of the major reasons for this is that the Rules are currently very inclusive so that it's easy for new shooters to get involved. If you want that trend to continue, it's worth considering very carefully what effect establishing some type of limitation on projectile weight will have on competitors at all levels.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A 156 gr limit would also preclude an awful lot of people that might otherwise participate in F-Class, particularly at the local level, that don't reload. If you look, there are very few commercial offerings that would satisfy a 156 gr limit; CorBon, Lapua, and Bryan Litz' Fullbore, to name three. These loads are also VERY expensive.

So, <span style="font-style: italic">exactly what is the intended purpose for modifying the projectile weight limit?</span>

Is it only aimed at the top national-, or international-level shooters that are most likely to be the ones running super heavy loads? At this point in time, you could probably get away with limiting the weight to 201 gr without affecting all that many people, which is the only reason I personally would entertain the idea of such a change. However, it's worth noting here that the Rules weren't written solely for top level competitors, but anyone that wants to get involved and participate in F-Class shooting events here in the U.S.A.

Is it to "level" the playing field with the idea that skill, and skill alone, is the primary factor that determines the outcome of a match? Sorry, but it's doubtful that going to a 156 gr limit would do that unless you also change the rules to limit every competitor to using a specific make and model of rifle, bipod, scope, etc. How long until that idea is proposed? The bottom line is that without going to that length, you're never going to really level the playing field. Trust me, you really don't want to go down that path, anyhow. It's called socialism and it doesn't work. Going to a 156 gr limit would most likely preclude a lot of shooters at the local level that can currently show up at a match with their Remmy 700 and FGMM 175s, do reasonably well, and have a great time competing. Isn't that a big part of what this sport is about?

F-Class is currently probably one of the fastest growing shooting sports. It seems to me that one of the major reasons for this is that the Rules are currently very inclusive so that it's easy for new shooters to get involved. If you want that trend to continue, it's worth considering very carefully what effect establishing some type of limitation on projectile weight will have on competitors at all levels. </div></div>

I agree with this. If I were forced to use 155s to shoot in an F-class match, I wouldn't shoot matches, and the people who would shoot in them would pull the class even closer to the Open toy race. I shoot F-T/R to get more long range trigger time, not as an end in itself, and I suspect a whole lot of people feel the same way. I think the way it is is fine - with the caveat that I don't think that a guy who shoots a 30" barreled single-shot tube gun ought to shit-talk outshooting a guy with an M24.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

156 would be the limit, which doesn't mean that 155's would be a requirement. A quick glance at MidwayUSA shows that Federal, TulAmmo, Remington, Sellier & Bellot, Wolf, Black Hills, Nosler etc., etc. offer off the shelf ammo that would fit the bill.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

I am new to F T/R but as a new guy, my observation is this. It is already obscene with the 30, 32 and 34" barrels. Ridiculous bipods that aren't practical for any other purpose. Launching 155's at 3100 fps! Nothing related to the comment about people wanting to run "limited equipment"

It appears to me that those who have already built their 5K rigs aren't happy that they have to rebuild them for the heavier bullets. There is a limit to how big the bullets can get in a .308 With all of the modifications already adopted in the rigs that are competitive, I don't see the big fuss about heavier bullets.

If you want to put some limitations on the equipment, why not pull it back to practical equipment that would actually be used in a practical situation. Limit the bullet, limit the speed, reduce the weight, shorten the barrels etc. Until then, let the sport evolve like virtually every other sport and/or establish a new class.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

First, I am strongly opposed to capping the bullet weight and I'm very firm on this opinion. I believe in allowing people to experiment with their gear and ammo.

With that said, I'm impressed with how news of my loads travels so fast. Yes, I'm playing with the heavier bullets but I still think the winning bullet is the 185BT and will probably switch back unless I can pull off some magic here in the next few months. I really don't think the ultra heavy bullets are a winning combination with a .308, but I sure love trying! However, one particular thing I don't like is the feeling of changing the rules after the bullets have entered the market unless there is a safety reason pushing the rule. I have spent some of my hard earned money gearing up for these heavy hybrids. Is this money now totally wasted??
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trovan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am new to F T/R but as a new guy, my observation is this. It is already obscene with the 30, 32 and 34" barrels. Ridiculous bipods that aren't practical for any other purpose. Launching 155's at 3100 fps! Nothing related to the comment about people wanting to run "limited equipment"

It appears to me that those who have already built their 5K rigs aren't happy that they have to rebuild them for the heavier bullets. There is a limit to how big the bullets can get in a .308 With all of the modifications already adopted in the rigs that are competitive, I don't see the big fuss about heavier bullets.

If you want to put some limitations on the equipment, why not pull it back to practical equipment that would actually be used in a practical situation. Limit the bullet, limit the speed, reduce the weight, shorten the barrels etc. Until then, let the sport evolve like virtually every other sport and/or establish a new class. </div></div>

Exactly. F-Class is headed for an IPSC/USPSA/IDPA style split if the gamers try to take over the entire enchilada instead of staying in their class - which should be Open...or simply establish a new Practical class for the guys who want to shoot practical rifles.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

It looks like the same people that decided the Nationals should only be shot at 1000 yards. Are trying to change the rules to suit themselves again. Only this time they are looking for support. Heck its the NAT. championship it should be shot at 300,500,600 and 800,900, and 1000. It looks like the same old thing the ones in the loop trying to change the rules midgame to suite what they like to shoot or what there guns shoot.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: usftr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
With that said, I'm impressed with how news of my loads travels so fast. </div></div>

This proposal predates your heavy workup by a bit, I did some pre-release testing on the Berger 215's and 230's and could see their promise at the time (last July-ish).

I too love playing with different combinations, heavy *and* light, but I worry that we will start getting so specialized that we will not be able to get the average newbie off the street to come start playing the game.

And yes, the experimentation with rifles and ammo has absolutely been a big driving force for F-T/R as a class to this point. If we continue on this path, let's do it with our eyes open.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nesikabay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It looks like the same people that decided the Nationals should only be shot at 1000 yards. Are trying to change the rules to suit themselves again. </div></div>

Far from it, that's why this discussion is taking place 1.5+ years in advance of any potential change. It's mainly a way to take the "pulse" of public opinion of those that actually shoot the sport (thus the poll).

If the response is obviously against such a rule change, you won't see it submitted by me.

As has been mentioned before, I don't personally care what bullet we run, I can run heavies or lights just fine. I just don't want us to cut out the new shooters if the only thing out there that is competitive in 5 years is a 230 or 240 grain bullet.

Darrell
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trovan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am new to F T/R but as a new guy, my observation is this. It is already obscene with the 30, 32 and 34" barrels. Ridiculous bipods that aren't practical for any other purpose. Launching 155's at 3100 fps! Nothing related to the comment about people wanting to run "limited equipment"

It appears to me that those who have already built their 5K rigs aren't happy that they have to rebuild them for the heavier bullets. There is a limit to how big the bullets can get in a .308 With all of the modifications already adopted in the rigs that are competitive, I don't see the big fuss about heavier bullets.

If you want to put some limitations on the equipment, why not pull it back to practical equipment that would actually be used in a practical situation. <span style="color: #FF0000">Limit the bullet, limit the speed, reduce the weight, shorten the barrels etc.</span> Until then, let the sport evolve like virtually every other sport and/or establish a new class. </div></div>

This is exactly how it starts, and where it stops, no one can know. Trovan, I know you meant this sentence to illustrate the impracticality of such restrictions, so my response is not aimed at you. Seriously, stop for a minute and think about it. Those of us old enough (ie. fossils LOL) can remember this exact same debate/furor when people first started using metal instead of persimmon for golf drivers and fairway woods. A similar thing happened when composite materials were used for the club shafts. The cry was that these materials would ruin the sport of golf. The fact is that that never happened, and everyone from the highest to the lowest level currently uses metal woods. Their availability and price became reasonable only after the pros started using them. Golf is just fine, and F-Class will be too, the less the rules are messed with.

Edited to add: BTW - Darrel, thanks on behalf of myself and others for bringing this idea out in an open forum so that everyone can weigh in!
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

An average newbie off the street won't be able to be competitive regardless of bullet restrictions or not. They won't have the skills necessary...

I vote to leave the rules as written.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

Its F/Class lets limit the F/Open to a 6.5mm with 139gr bullets. Or if you want to get more shooters lets all shoot factory rifles with no mods. While your at it limit the bipod to be no wider than 8 inches. But dont stop there no Lapua brass because it cost to much a new shooter might not be able to afford it. What about limiting scopes also. No Nightforce or March because other shooters cant afford them either. What is going on at the NRA are the Democrats taking it over
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trovan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't see the big fuss about heavier bullets.
</div></div>

The fuss is 50" of wind drift at 1000 yards vs. 77" (and considerably poorer 'pure' accuracy (vertical groups) out of the heavy bullets).

Is this where we want to go? I don't know, thus the discussion.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

If we are going to limit bullit wieght lets go back and put 600Yards back in the game for the Nationals in the future.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nesikabay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is going on at the NRA are the Democrats taking it over </div></div>

Okay, thats about enough of that crap.

This isn't 'the NRA'. They wouldn't bother soliciting your opinion - witness the venue change for FCNC that dropped the 600yd line entirely. No question, nothing beyond a straw poll and then have the HP Committee vote on it behind closed doors - done deal.

Darrell is *asking* what you think - and why - so that *if* some sort of rules change were to be put forth to the HP Committee, the rank-n-file shooters (who make up the bulk of this sport) would at least be aware of it and have a chance to voice their opinions on the matter.

That said... you don't have to be such an ass about *how* you voice your opinion. Drop the chicken-little routine and stick with reasoned arguments - step away from the keyboard for a while if need be - because you're not exactly wooing anyone to your side with your current approach...

YMMV,

Monte
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

I get your point and this is a good discussion. I just see the same type of advantage with the speed. In my opinion, and granted it is as a new guy looking to get more involved with it, it is very much like the IPSC/IDPA sports. It looks like a guy with a tricked out race gun in .45 complaining that the next guy is shooting the same thing .40 and referring back to the intent of having a sport for the average shooter. BTW, I don't mean you Darrell Buell. I am just trying to make a point. I thank you for initiating the debate. I am not trying to offend anyone.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

Darrell- I was referring to Savage10FCPK's statement

"I know that you think the 155's will still "hang" with the 185's, and you are right they are competitive, but Stuart Anslem and Jeff Rorer won both the European and US Nationals last year using the 185's and almost everyone I know is moving to them. It's only a matter of time before people start moving up even further. I think Jeff is already in the process of making that jump."

Location lists Missouri.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

Now that people are going off the deep end I would like to take it to a new level and ask one of the shooters on the US team if one of the rumors I heard is true, namely that the colors they will be wearing for competitions now are going to be changed from red, white and blue to black and gold (NRA colors).

Don't everyone jump in at once.
whistle.gif
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

Im not trying to WOO anyone just making a point. Are the rules going to change every year or two. If it isnt broke dont try to fix it. If in shooting 185s and get beat by 230s thats my problem ill fix it myself. The democrat response was thrown out there because thats what they do. Try and take from the winners in life and give to those that cant.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

Jeff,

I didn't know if you were trying them out or not. I just threw it out there to see if you would bite.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

Yep, I bit. I've tried several of the heavy bullets and I keep getting beat by those shooting 185BT. When I was shooting the 185BT, I could beat those shooting 200 hybrids on most days. I'm seeing a trend here! The Berger 185BT is just one awesome bullet and I think paired up well with the .308Win case capacity. With that said, I'm still pushing forward with the ultra heavy bullets for now. I'm searching for a winning combination. I have two barrels set up for these bullets with a few key differences trying to find the right recipe.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: usftr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Darrell- I was referring to Savage10FCPK's statement

"I know that you think the 155's will still "hang" with the 185's, and you are right they are competitive, but Stuart Anslem and Jeff Rorer won both the European and US Nationals last year using the 185's and almost everyone I know is moving to them. It's only a matter of time before people start moving up even further. I think Jeff is already in the process of making that jump."

Location lists Missouri. </div></div>

No worries Jeff, I also remember the Irish Nationals last year in howling gales; 155.5 vs. 185.
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Looking at the numbers, if you are running 185's out there at 2850-2875, I'm guessing you're seeing ~78-80" of drift. I'm probably getting ~87"-ish of drift out of my *fast* 155.5's. Not an insurmountable difference.

And yes, I know people are already drifting in that direction, thus this attempt to see if the rules need to change at all, and if so, do it *before* many people dump a bunch of cash into more specialized gear.

Thus the discussion!
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Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

I voted early in the life of the thread, without comment. My vote was for capping the bullet weight at less than 201grains, then I went back to work and let my mind play with concept of the change.

After thinking about it, I now wish to change my vote. I believe we should not cap the bullet weight.

F-T/R is not about practical shooting, and it’s not about making it easy for people with regular rifles to become competitive immediately. F-T/R is about shooting inadequate calibers at little bitty targets placed at long distances. If we make it easy for the regular Joe to come off the street with his latest tacticool rifle and immediately compete with the top shooters, what fun is that? Where is the challenge? We have threads here about the dearth of pure F-T/R High Masters. I have never heard of a clean in F-T/R at 1000 yards. I LIKE THAT. I like that because it’s difficult. Very difficult. That’s the attraction.

F-T/R is all about compromises to extend the use of two cartridges beyond their normal capabilities. However the shooter achieves this, one thing is certain; to be competitive at the highest levels requires a high level of marksmanship, irrespective of the bullet used. As I said, F-T/R is about compromises and the few simple rules make it so you have to think about how you plan to achieve success and make informed choices about your equipment.

The rules are simple: regular .223 or .308 cases shooting whatever you want in an unbraked rifle weighing no more than 18.18 pounds including the scope and bipod; make your choices to produce a rifle to meet those parameters.

I am totally against dumbing down the rules to limit competitors to arbitrary bullet weights just so new shooters don’t feel they can’t compete right away. Equipment choices are an integral part of F-T/R, just as much as handloading skills, marksmanship skills and wind reading skills are also integral parts of the F-T/R competitive equation. Of course, some factors are more critical than others but these skills are acquired and honed over time if you stick with it long enough. Maybe.

Leave well enough alone.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

Yes I do remember getting beat by your 155.5's in Ireland. I was just plain out shot by two awesome shooters, one of them being Irish. I was running the 185's at a hair over 2800. No matter what Berger bullet you choose, they just flat out shoot.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

I was going to continue arguing for practicality, but after reading more on some other sites this appears to be such a low priority as to not even have an influence on the debate.

So, ya'll have fun.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Darrell Buell</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nesikabay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It looks like the same people that decided the Nationals should only be shot at 1000 yards. Are trying to change the rules to suit themselves again. </div></div>

Far from it, that's why this discussion is taking place 1.5+ years in advance of any potential change. It's mainly a way to take the "pulse" of public opinion of those that actually shoot the sport (thus the poll).

If the response is obviously against such a rule change, you won't see it submitted by me.

As has been mentioned before, <span style="color: #FF0000">I don't personally care what bullet we run, I can run heavies or lights just fine.</span> I just don't want us to cut out the new shooters if the only thing out there that is competitive in 5 years is a 230 or 240 grain bullet.

Darrell </div></div>


Darrell,
So you had success with 215s & 230s in a "factory" Savage F-tr rifle out to 1,000 yards? I didn't realize their twist (or lack thereof) could keep the heavies stabelized that far out. I figured that was a big factor for you being anti-201gr+ bullets, but after reading your statements above, I guess not. Personally I voted to quit screwing with the rules and just shoot. But then again, I have no plans to abandon the 185s.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

A little off topic but i know the F/Open shooters have Tryouts to make the team. And i know when and where they are. When and where are the F/TR tryouts or are they hand pick by one or two people. And yes this is a loaded question.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: QuietShootr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was going to continue arguing for practicality, but after reading more on some other sites this appears to be such a low priority as to not even have an influence on the debate.
</div></div>

There is a place for 'practical shooting'. I have no issue at all with the "F-Tac" startup concept, as long as they don't "dumb it down" by trying to shoot on the massive Palma target. To this end, I brought a stock, purpose-built .308 sniper rifle to an F-Class match in Phoenix in December (complete with 24" barrel, muzzle break, and fed my rounds out of a magazine). There were some top-caliber F-T/R shooters present, and the little sniper rifle did not embarrass itself at all, holding top 5 at 800 & 900, and top 10 at 1000, running a 155.5 grain bullet.

It can be done, and there should be a place for F-Tac if people come out and shoot it (ie. demonstrate a demand).
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 9sigman45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Darrell,
So you had success with 215s & 230s in a "factory" Savage F-tr rifle out to 1,000 yards? </div></div>

No, in order to test the 215's and 230's, I got a 1:10 twist version of the standard 1:12 F-T/R profile barrel from Savage. I then had the throat moved out somewhat.

There is no way at all that you will be able to run 215+ bullets successfully out of a stock barrel/chamber configuration.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not "anti-215/230's". I have seen potential promise there, and there's a very good chance I'll be running something like it at Nationals this year. I'm thinking more of the long-term effect the newer bullets will have on F-T/R class in general.

Best,

Darrell
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

As a newbie whose new rifle isnt even complete, my opinion is this rule change is compeletely arbitrary and based on some percieved threat that bullet technology may or may not pose to F/TR.

What if new powder technology is developed that enables 308 winchesters to achieve 95% of .300wm velocities? Will the rules change to ban those powders?

What about non-lead bullets that yield a disproportionate weight to BC ratio compared to traditional lead jacketed bullets? Will the rules be changed to somehow declare these bullets ineligible if they become cheaper/more available?

Where does this end?

Why can't the rules be left as they are?

Why not create a sub-class of F/TR for people that want to limit themselves to 155gr bullets?
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tx_Flyboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As a newbie whose new rifle isnt even complete, my opinion is this rule change is compeletely arbitrary and based on some percieved threat that bullet technology may or may not do to F/TR.

What if new powder technology is developed that enables 308 winchesters to achieve 95% of .300wm velocities? Will the rules change to ban those powders?

Where does this end?

Why can't the rules be left as they are? </div></div>

For being new your smart. You got it. It ends when those that make the rules are the only ones left shooting
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

Its like the Nationals only being shot at 1000 yards. It was decided by the ones that make the rules. The shooters whitch is us have to follow. Im telling yall the democrats are taking over. Shoving it up are asses. Or is this case asking us to do so and approve it
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

No dog in this fight as I don't compete. I'll throw in my 2 cents anyway just because I enjoy shooting long with 308s.

I've been shooting 208/210gr in the 308 for a number of years from a 1/12 Rem barrel. The improved LR ballistics made a believer out of me real fast.

I put some 225gr Hornady through the 1/12 with good results at 4500' el, may not fly at low elevations.

I think keeping the rules as they are is a great way to let the 308 reach it's full potential. If that happens to be with the heavies, so be it.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

I voted for no restrictions on bullet weight eventhough I shoot 185s but not the yellow box version.

I got in trouble a few years ago about F-T/R with one of the "big names" popular in the forums and the State of TN because as a new shooter I had the temerity to challenge them to let me shoot their $5k rifle and they shoot my factory Remington 700 SPS and let's see who shoots best. F-T/R has become an IPSC arms race. Once I had my action trued, new stock and a new barrel my rifle stopped being a 3/4-1 moa rifle and is capable of shooting cleans at almost any distance. So my point is bullet weights alone are not going to be the solution to "keeping" new shooters interested. Maybe its time to start a separate designation in the class for strictly factory rifles? No custom barrels, stocks, and triggers.

Allen
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I didn't vote because I believe one needs to be an active participant in F T/R in order to exert a reprsentational influence on the issue.

I do, however, have opinions on the matter.

I am leery of organizational bodies telling participants what's good for the sport. I think it should work in the other direction.

I also believe that F Class should be as inclusive, rather than exclusive, as possible, and that every time a cap or restriction is imposed, it becomes more exclusive.

Offhand, I believe this cap will ultimately be imposed, regardless of my opinion, and I believe in following rules.

As an observer, it appears to me that the F T/R configuration has followed the Palma rifle configuration somewhat. That discipline has a bullet weight cap, which I believe was established to broadly mimic NATO issue ammo specs. At the time, the upper issue ammunition bullet weght limit was 155gr and that limit was imposed. Since then higher NATO issue ammuntion bullet weights have appeared, mostly in the 175-180gr bullet weight range,

If I were to support a bullet weight cap, that would be the one I'd prefer. It bypasses the slavishly restrictive 155gr limit, stays within a practical range that mimics NATO issue ammo, and still provides an accomodation to reasonable ballistic performance in a more conventional bore configuration.

Greg </div></div>

I'm behind this 100%.
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Darrell Buell</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: QuietShootr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was going to continue arguing for practicality, but after reading more on some other sites this appears to be such a low priority as to not even have an influence on the debate.
</div></div>

There is a place for 'practical shooting'. I have no issue at all with the "F-Tac" startup concept, as long as they don't "dumb it down" by trying to shoot on the massive Palma target. To this end, I brought a stock, purpose-built .308 sniper rifle to an F-Class match in Phoenix in December (complete with 24" barrel, muzzle break, and fed my rounds out of a magazine). There were some top-caliber F-T/R shooters present, and the little sniper rifle did not embarrass itself at all, holding top 5 at 800 & 900, and top 10 at 1000, running a 155.5 grain bullet.

It can be done, and there should be a place for F-Tac if people come out and shoot it (ie. demonstrate a demand). </div></div>

Is there any reason we can't publish an F-Tac winner at the local level?
 
Re: F-T/R Bullet Weight Cap (proposed), discussion.

I didn't vote, since I shoot F-Open.

I believe if they can sling it with a standard .308 case design by stretching the throat, then they ought to be given the opportunity. I understand the "arms race" concerns, but this is a slippery slope issue that will be hard to control.

Jeffvn