F T/R Competition F/TR noob... questions

[jhelmuth]

Guys,

Thanks for putting up with a noob. I have some questions as I am getting strarted in the F/TR game...

[1] What 3 things would you consider to be the most important for a noob getting into F/TR?

[2] I have 1 each of the .223 and .308 Savage model 12s with Precision Target Actions + HS Precision stocks + and Criterion barrels. Which rifle an distance would you likely shoot either of these in F/TR?

[3] I'm using Harris bipods and generic rear bunny-ear bags. Is there anything you would change on the gear I've noted?


Thanks in advance,

Jim

 

[scaxeman]

Re: F/TR noob... questions

Hey Jim,

If I was making a "top 3" list for a new shooter, it would look a little like this:

1. Practice, practice, practice; there is no substitute for rounds down range

2. Good, precise load development and equally precise reloading practices/procedures. Your learning curve will be hampered if you aren't ABSOLUTELY confident in the performance of your handloads.

3. Get out there and compete... Competing = practice! Just remember that you are really only competing against yourself, set personal goals and work towards them.


The .223 you mention should easily be competitive out to 600 yards with proper loads. The .308 will work from 300 all the way out to 1200 yards (again, with appropriate loads).

A bunny-ear bag will work fine, as long as it has a solid bottom. If it has a soft bottom, it will tend to rock around; generally not an accuracy aid. Edgewood makes excellent bags, but there are some folks out there (myself included) that simply run cheap range sandbags (flat). As to bipod, the Harris will work, but there are better choices. Sinclair, GG&G, LRA, Centershot, etc.

Hope this helps,

Darrell

 

[jhelmuth]

Re: F/TR noob... questions

Thanks Darrell. You've mentioned load development and precise reloading P&P, and I'm on it (have been over the past 10 months). Seems like every month that goes by I look back and come to the realization that I know even more than I did when I had thought I had already "mastered" my P&P (I guess that just goes along with the "you learn something new everyday" thing). Cleaning/preping cases is my current focus - particularly on caseneck tension.
I try to get out and practice my trigger technique AMAP (as much as possible). Actually I do more than focus on trigger technique - but that is always a critical factor as I figure out why I shoot really well at times and other tims I'm less than my best. Seems to mostly come back to trigger technique inconsistency.
I'm at the point where I now just want to go out and compete. Not with the idea that I can (compete that is), but so that I can learn how to be competitive. Right now don't have any dreams of placing - just finishing and ontinuing to learn as I go along. I wish I had a mentor who could help me accelerate my learning, but I'm OK to make mistakes and learn from them too.

 

[XTR]

Re: F/TR noob... questions

With out repeating what Darrel wrote I'll say:


With regard to neck tension. Getting consistent neck tension made more improvement in my loads than anything else I've done so far. I did it with a Lee Collet sizer. For me it works. Others may insist on turning necks but I don't loose points to vertical. (wind is another story) I've also found that I don't need to full length resize every time, in fact I've not had any problems with cases going three or more times.



Obviously trigger technique always is important. Your technique is important, and I think what works can vary with your stock. With a target style stock you can use a lighter hold and let the rifle recoil whereas with a stock with a more angled buttstock you need to hold a little tighter. You may find a different answer.

I've also found that I do better with light cheek contact rather than a firm weld, but you'll have to play with it for yourself. I find that work on form at 200 yards or with a 22 at 100 is productive. At 200 you reduce the wind and can see the effects of the different things you do.

Another thing to do is 600 yard matches/practice. I think 600 shows better what the rifle/loads can do and tells on your form. At 1000 there is to much that can get blamed on wind that might not be but you can't be sure.


Back to Darrell's Practice Practice Practice comment. In sailing dinghys they refer to getting you head out of the boat to be a good sailor. I think in shooting long distance you need to get your head out of the rifle.

The book "Total Control" is about high performance motorcycle riding, in there the author makes the analogy that you only have $1 worth of attention this works in shooting too. If you are spending 25¢ on sight picture, 25¢ on trigger control, 15¢ on loading and operating the rifle, another 10¢ on your position, and 10¢ remembering what you've dialed you now only have 15¢ left to pay attention to the wind. That doesn't buy you enough wind. You need at least 50¢ for the wind, and more is better. Practice till those other things can be done efficiently while you watch the wind. The only way that happens is practice. (personally I'm still way short on wind money, but I'm getting better)

If you really want to see how this plays out, go out with someone and play coach. They shoot, you make all the wind calls, i.e., all the holdoffs, all the knob turning, that way you are putting your full $1 in the wind. It's an eye opener.

 

[Denys]

Re: F/TR noob... questions

My top three list is different from Darrell's.

1- Get adequate equipment.
2- Get adequate load.
3- Go shoot.

1- Adequate equipment. This means a rifle that is suitably precise with a scope that is suitably powerful and able to be ajdusted to fit the requirements of the discipline. It would be a waste of time and ammo to go to a 600 yard match with a 4X scope on a rifle that can only hold 2MOA on the best of days. The same can be said for a 10X scope that does not have enough elevation to be on target at 1000yards. It appears you have the proper equipment, though no scope was mentioned.

2-Adequate load. This means a load that will be able to perform properly at the distances involved. It would be a waste of time to use 55 or 62 gr bullets at 1000 yards in your .223. Using a 150gr FMJ-BT in your .308 for the same distance would also handicap you. In .223 let me just say that the 80gr bullets are the way to go from 300 to 1000 yards. You can also try the 90gr bullets, but make sure the twist is adequeate. For the .308, something like a 155 or a 175 or heavier in a VLD or LR match configuration will be adequate for 1000 yards. The 168gr SMK should be limited to 600 yards or less.

I use 80gr bullets at all distances in .223 and I use 180gr bullets at all distances in my .308. I like it simple.

Use a bullet that will do the job and can be stablized in your barrel(s).

The stuff Darrell said about loading is critical.

3- Go shoot. Going out and doing it is the only way to learn and get better.

 

[Ammo dog 2311]

Re: F/TR noob... questions

Hi guys, I am in the same boat as Jim. I have not competed in f class yet but want to some day. I have a savage model 12 f/tr with a NF 5.5x22 second focal plane on it. Harris and leather bag also. I dont reload yet but will buy the equipment soon.

Do you guys use spotting scopes in f-class ? If so what brand is most common ? Semper if ...

 

[XTR]

Re: F/TR noob... questions

In the beginning you don't need a spotter to get out and shoot. You can see the scores in your scope.

Later I think it helps to read mirage. I think it helps, others may find differently. I also live near and shoot in Oak Ridge, the tree lines here make the information from the flags less than complete to say the least. (Esp at 1000 yards)


I got a Leica 77, if I was doing it again I'd get something with more eye relief like a Kowa. It is not a big deal for other applications, but when you are on the line you are wearing shooting shooting glasses and getting centered is harder.

 

[merrjm]

Re: F/TR noob... questions

Jim and Ammo,
listen to these guys !
Specially darrel and xtr. i not so long ago asked some questions on this forum on shooting 1000 and sent darrel a pm.got some good info on loads and technique.
the main thing i can say as a newbie (only 1.5 yrs doing this)
1.is to find a load with good vel and groups, and get out there and shoot. when you think you have shot enuf shoot some more.
2. dont be afraid to get into a comp. you will find out that most folks will help you out. whether it be in the pits, scoring or sending sighters down range.
3.start out small(short),get comfortable with short ranges and in turn you'll get comfortable with your technique and weapon.then stretch it on out. dont be afraid it really isnt as hard as you may let your self think.
i remember when i first joined the club i shoot at there were these 2 guys that were shooting 3"steels at 300 yds and hitting every shot. i thought that was just crazy. bout 3-4 months later i was hitting 3 of 4 at the same targets and distance(turns out one of them is one of the top ibs shooters in the southeast)..


btw, darrel and xtr, i just got my nra (mid range) classification. EXPERT.. only 2 more spots to go.. and last week i upgraded optics hopefully that will help me bump up a spot..i finished 6 in f t/r at the orange blossom regional with 1148-29x out of 1200 met some really good folks down there, and had a blast.

there is a wealth of knowledge on this site, welcome and good luck in the future.

shoot with what you have or do some research. at a match , you will see all kinds of different things from bipods to rear bags.you can upgrade slowly.there are many alternatives out there. at the range most folks will let you look and get behind their weapon and tell you what you want to know if you see something you like. hell i alot of times let folks shoot mine. the more people in the shooting sports we have the better.

 

[Ammo dog 2311]

Re: F/TR noob... questions

It was mirage I was goin for. I shot in the western div. matches long ago. We were taught to unfocuse our spotting scope to find the mirage. I am not worried about shooting tech. It's wind and mirage i need to work on.

Shooting in California during the windy months was a real challenge. The range flags would blow in all directions. 200-300 yds was not that hard it was the 500 yd line were you needed to use the mirage. It's a tough call when the flags are doin one thing and the mirage is doin another. I had days when the mirage would be left to right and the wind right to left.

I believe that anyone can learn shooting technique it's reading wind and mirage effects that are the real factors.

Side note: I lost the last match I was in from the first round fired. I forgot to zero my windage from the day before. Then I added windage when I got to the firing line. My first round was a clear miss right off the target. I was shocked I never missed before. That's when I discovered my mistake. A hard lesson to learn, I have never forgot that mistake.

 

[XTR]

Re: F/TR noob... questions

I use my spotter focused at about 300 for 600 yd matches and somewhere around 600 for 1000 yard matches. On our range I can get good reads from 600 but at 1000 the terrain we shoot over makes it a lot harder, at least for me.

I've noticed that I can see/read mirage much better when I am in the scorers chair than on the mat, go figure huh?

 

[scaxeman]

Re: F/TR noob... questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use my spotter focused at about 300 for 600 yd matches and somewhere around 600 for 1000 yard matches. On our range I can get good reads from 600 but at 1000 the terrain we shoot over makes it a lot harder, at least for me. </div></div>
I'm doing almost exactly the same thing; looking at mirage ~1/3 of the way towards the target gives me the best results...


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I've noticed that I can see/read mirage much better when I am in the scorers chair than on the mat, go figure huh? </div></div>

This actually makes much sense. The same is true for coaching. If you look at air flow on a range as laminar (which is an oversimplification), the boundary layer where the air speed is at minimum is on the ground. This can exhibit itself as a confusing morass of mirage when viewed from ~ 6" above the ground (ie. shooter height). When you get up a few feet, you are getting out of that boundary layer, and the air flow will be much more organized (and hopefully more readable).


Darrell

 

[Ammo dog 2311]

Re: F/TR noob... questions

Have you found any " rule of thumb" for mirage effect. Ex. Waves at certain angles or at certain distances ? I remember struggling with mirage vs. wind effects and how many clicks to add or subtract. I think I spent more time staring through the spotting scope and lookin at range flags then I did looking through my sites.