Standard cross with appropriate sub tensions as per S & B LRR , hybrid reticle like March FML MT , US Optics JVCR ( all pictured below )or do you prefer to go ‘ full Horus ‘ ?
- Thread starter Clearlight
- Start date
I think it's going to be highly subjective to everyone, but I personally prefer the MSR or P4F. Clean, uncluttered, simple. I've tried the H59 at typical ELR distances but I don't feel that it's optimal. It's not too terrible as an observation reticle at ELR.
I do have a ERA-TAC adjustable mount and a LRR-MIL on the way (5-25x) and am really looking forward to trying it out.
I do have a ERA-TAC adjustable mount and a LRR-MIL on the way (5-25x) and am really looking forward to trying it out.
I like the tree style reticles. Recently ordered the Nightforce 7-35x56 mil-xt reticle for my 375 I'm building.
+1 for the MSR reticle. For something like a PRS match I think something like the h59 would be great but for ranges out past 1000? ?
But take my word with a grain of salt cause I’m still new at this game and still trying to figure things out.
But take my word with a grain of salt cause I’m still new at this game and still trying to figure things out.
Hi,
I have always been a fan and user of the standard ol P4F...but when I make the transition to the Genesis; it will be FML MT..unless they come up with reticle somewhere in middle road of P4F and FML MT by end of year
Could that be what you are getting at (Since you have been testing a few prototypes)??? Inquiring mind wants to know.
Sincerely,
Theis
I have always been a fan and user of the standard ol P4F...but when I make the transition to the Genesis; it will be FML MT..unless they come up with reticle somewhere in middle road of P4F and FML MT by end of year
Could that be what you are getting at (Since you have been testing a few prototypes)??? Inquiring mind wants to know
.Sincerely,
Theis
Hi,
I have always been a fan and user of the standard ol P4F...but when I make the transition to the Genesis; it will be FML MT..unless they come up with reticle somewhere in middle road of P4F and FML MT by end of year
Could that be what you are getting at (Since you have been testing a few prototypes)??? Inquiring mind wants to know
Sincerely,
Theis
The "FML-MT" is probably the best name for a reticle also I think.
The problem is when you run out of dial...
For true ELR work, it's pretty beneficial to have a christmas tree type reticle. You are really limiting yourself with a more "basic" reticle, IMO. It's tough to be precise if your target is in "dead space" in the reticle (no hashmarks/references on the target). For example, when I shooting out to 2,200 yards with my 6.5 creedmoor, I was off in "dead space" with a SKMR3 reticle (partial christmas tree). It was really imprecise. Managed to get a hit on the 7th or 8th shot, but I bet I would have been more successful with a different reticle.
My ELR rifle currently utilizes an AMR reticle. While I haven't had a chance to use it near as much as I would like to (new job, moved to new state, moving into a new house, etc), but so far I'm really digging this reticle. Seems perfect for ELR use - 0.2 mil hash marks for both the windage and elevation, with lots of elevation (and windage) built into the reticle. It seems busy on paper, but it really isn't. The Khales doesn't have as much elevation in the turrets as some other reticles, but that can always be made up for by a device such as a TacomHQ unit.
Of course reticles are a very personal choice, but for true ELR work, a full christmas tree type reticle, such as a AMR, Tremor, Horus, etc., is very beneficial. It takes a lot of guess work out of it, and allows you to be more precise.
My ELR rifle currently utilizes an AMR reticle. While I haven't had a chance to use it near as much as I would like to (new job, moved to new state, moving into a new house, etc), but so far I'm really digging this reticle. Seems perfect for ELR use - 0.2 mil hash marks for both the windage and elevation, with lots of elevation (and windage) built into the reticle. It seems busy on paper, but it really isn't. The Khales doesn't have as much elevation in the turrets as some other reticles, but that can always be made up for by a device such as a TacomHQ unit.
Of course reticles are a very personal choice, but for true ELR work, a full christmas tree type reticle, such as a AMR, Tremor, Horus, etc., is very beneficial. It takes a lot of guess work out of it, and allows you to be more precise.
Hi,
With the progression and advancement in the ELR realm....things like large elevation amounts built into scopes are becoming less and less of a requirement or issue due to the different adjustable mounts and prism devices.
Whats funny is that in 1998 when we started to initial testing of the 408CT...Dean drew a picture of a SN9 that had basically a built in TACOM prism unit into the objective bell of the scope....fast forward 20 years and we have that concept but in a removable unit instead of built into the scope.
The problem with "full tree" reticles is that in certain environments you barely get any ground disturbance to show your miss to begin with and the full trees can make it even harder to see the miss in those conditions.
Sincerely,
Theis
With the progression and advancement in the ELR realm....things like large elevation amounts built into scopes are becoming less and less of a requirement or issue due to the different adjustable mounts and prism devices.
Whats funny is that in 1998 when we started to initial testing of the 408CT...Dean drew a picture of a SN9 that had basically a built in TACOM prism unit into the objective bell of the scope....fast forward 20 years and we have that concept but in a removable unit instead of built into the scope.
The problem with "full tree" reticles is that in certain environments you barely get any ground disturbance to show your miss to begin with and the full trees can make it even harder to see the miss in those conditions.
Sincerely,
Theis
I have been using the H-59 in the S&B 3X27 and like it a lot. I choose it over the Tremor 3 because of the open top.
I love my MSRs. Other good reticles too. I've spent a lot of time behind a H59. Not sure I would think of it as an ELR reticle.
I started out with a NF NP-R1. Looking back now, I'm surprised that was able to do as well with it as we did. The NXS didn't have the elevation available like what is available now. So, was doing elevation and windage holds on second focal place scope with a reticle that didn't have significant reference points, challenging, but did prove to be doable.
From there I bought one of the first NF BEAST with MOAR. This instantly was a big step in the right direction IMO. It was luxury to have that much elevation and being able to dial center. Also, found out I definitely prefer FFP--never having to worry which mag setting for reticle subtensions. Set the magnification to whatever reduces mirage, for that moment, and still have usable reticle. Whenever I felt that the FFP reticle was too large for small aiming points, then just started using the box aiming method. I liked MOAR,...the large open unobstructed views of traditional style reticle definitely proved to be advantageous for spotting shots especially with wet conditions, vegetation, snow, heavy mirage, lowlight, any condition other than the ideal dry dirt on a sunny day. MOAR also had significant enough reference points to make it easier for corrections and holdovers. My eyes never seemed to question reference values like I constantly found myself doing with NP-R1.
I did have a stint with Vortex ebr-2c. For some reason my eyes did not like the glass in the Gen 2 Razor, so I moved on.
Next was H59 in a BEAST. Here is where I fell in love with the floating center dot. This made it seem so easy to aim. My brain and eyes just loved this small center focal point. Aim small miss small ...the center floating dot seems to jive with this notion. The rest of H59 features seemed like a detriment to me. First was obstruction of view and spotting shots in less than ideal conditions. What I did find myself doing was pulling down the reticle and using the upper half FOV in the scope for spotting. With a 5 second TOF this is very doable. Secondly, what I did find myself wanting was more defining features, i.e less repetitive markings in the reticle. With a glance of an eye I want to be able to intuitively decide with confidence my reference values.
My current reticle is Tangent theta's Gen 2 XR. Going to be shooting with this more this summer. IMO this is a good reticle but I definitely got spoiled with H59's floating center dot. I think a blend of Gen 2 XR and Gen 3 XR would be perfect. Gen 3's main stadia with center dot and Gen 2's tree.
IMO I think the reticle that maybe close to perfection is ZCO'S MPCT2. Talk about a reticle that has instant reference value recognition without major obstruction. My only question would be line thickness on the tree. The more I use trees, the more I'm starting to believe -- less is more. But then again, I can't wait to try one out. They may have it perfect for conditions like lowlight and/or vegetation.
Disclaimer: this is all opinion
NF NP-R1
NF MOAR
H59
TT Gen 2 XR
TT Gen 3 XR
ZCO MPCT2
From there I bought one of the first NF BEAST with MOAR. This instantly was a big step in the right direction IMO. It was luxury to have that much elevation and being able to dial center. Also, found out I definitely prefer FFP--never having to worry which mag setting for reticle subtensions. Set the magnification to whatever reduces mirage, for that moment, and still have usable reticle. Whenever I felt that the FFP reticle was too large for small aiming points, then just started using the box aiming method. I liked MOAR,...the large open unobstructed views of traditional style reticle definitely proved to be advantageous for spotting shots especially with wet conditions, vegetation, snow, heavy mirage, lowlight, any condition other than the ideal dry dirt on a sunny day. MOAR also had significant enough reference points to make it easier for corrections and holdovers. My eyes never seemed to question reference values like I constantly found myself doing with NP-R1.
I did have a stint with Vortex ebr-2c. For some reason my eyes did not like the glass in the Gen 2 Razor, so I moved on.
Next was H59 in a BEAST. Here is where I fell in love with the floating center dot. This made it seem so easy to aim. My brain and eyes just loved this small center focal point. Aim small miss small ...the center floating dot seems to jive with this notion. The rest of H59 features seemed like a detriment to me. First was obstruction of view and spotting shots in less than ideal conditions. What I did find myself doing was pulling down the reticle and using the upper half FOV in the scope for spotting. With a 5 second TOF this is very doable. Secondly, what I did find myself wanting was more defining features, i.e less repetitive markings in the reticle. With a glance of an eye I want to be able to intuitively decide with confidence my reference values.
My current reticle is Tangent theta's Gen 2 XR. Going to be shooting with this more this summer. IMO this is a good reticle but I definitely got spoiled with H59's floating center dot. I think a blend of Gen 2 XR and Gen 3 XR would be perfect. Gen 3's main stadia with center dot and Gen 2's tree.
IMO I think the reticle that maybe close to perfection is ZCO'S MPCT2. Talk about a reticle that has instant reference value recognition without major obstruction. My only question would be line thickness on the tree. The more I use trees, the more I'm starting to believe -- less is more. But then again, I can't wait to try one out. They may have it perfect for conditions like lowlight and/or vegetation.
Disclaimer: this is all opinion
NF NP-R1
NF MOAR
H59
TT Gen 2 XR
TT Gen 3 XR
ZCO MPCT2
Hi,
I have always been a fan and user of the standard ol P4F...but when I make the transition to the Genesis; it will be FML MT..unless they come up with reticle somewhere in middle road of P4F and FML MT by end of year
Could that be what you are getting at (Since you have been testing a few prototypes)??? Inquiring mind wants to know
Sincerely,
Theis
Always testing stuff here and there , same as you
. I’d like something between a Mil XT and a Tangent Gen 3 personally : it doesn’t exist yet so I’ve been trying a few designs . It’s between $5 and 10k to get a
reticle in a working prototype, so it’s gotta be right before even getting a few protos built .
Reticles used in high zoom ratio applications have a high rejection rate , I suspect S & B had this headache
when the 5-45 FFP was getting developed . S & B and March are some of the very few that have got a
handle on this application of high zoom optics .
Is the Tremor 3 good for ELR?
^^ Quite a few units using T3 on the job : personally it’s a bit busy for me with the blobby wind dots.
Easy for the big wind blobs to obscure detail, and they make it harder to see misses in some terrain.
For ELR / ULR , you are unlikely to be milling the target with the reticle, or doing rough wind formulas
off the wind blobs. Accurate ranges and solutions, and very good wind juju is what’s required.
Easy for the big wind blobs to obscure detail, and they make it harder to see misses in some terrain.
For ELR / ULR , you are unlikely to be milling the target with the reticle, or doing rough wind formulas
off the wind blobs. Accurate ranges and solutions, and very good wind juju is what’s required.
I have used a H59 and Tremor 3 in ELR competitions. I am so fixated on my target that all is see is the floating center dot and my actual target. While receiving wind calls from my two spotters, the shooter shouldn’t be looking at anything other than the smallest ... exacting point of aim. I am looking thru the reticle and NOT at it.
Yes, I do communicate the target height and width in MILS to my teammates behind me.
Best of luck and great shooting
Chris Schmidt
JJ Rock Co. Team JJ Rock
Tennessee
IG: ChrisSchmidt_ELR
Looking at the reticle for what it is, IMO, I think there are much better choices for ELR situations. Can it be used for ELR .... absolutely. It really doesn't matter what reticle is used when a shooter has one or more spotters calling his shot. Where it starts to matter is when calling your own shots. This is where as much open glass is advantageous. Toss into the mix environmental conditions that mitigate bullet splash like vegetation, snow, and wet soil. Also add some mirage, which increase the difficulty of spotting shots. Less clutter--less confusion at distance.
IMO the T3 shines in a DMR role (1000 yards and under) with multiple target engagements in dry barron landscape, where bullet splash is more evident. No dialing, relative wind dots for different yardages, the T3 provides speed for these situations.
But again YMMV.
T3 reticle
So a non christmas tree / not so busy type reticle would be better for ELR?
IE : like in the pictures posted above ?
I like that ZCO reticle.
A usable 1/10 of a mil area and clean 0 to 2nd mil down area for spotting misses
A usable 1/10 of a mil area and clean 0 to 2nd mil down area for spotting misses
For me it depends if you can dial elevation to all your targets or not. If you can dial el all the way there, you
don’t need a tree reticle . As Chris mentioned above, if you can dial all the way , you are going to be focused
on the centre of the reticle so you aren’t going to worry about or be focused on the dots below .
If you are running a 416 with solids , and or a Tacom unit or Genesis optic you don’t ever really need a tree
reticle . Where a tree reticle is great is if you lack the necessary elevation travel to get to your target . Let’s
say shooting a 6.5 to 2000 or so, using a conventional optic on a 20 or 40 MOA base . Depending on bullet
choice and optic, you will run out of elevation somewhere from 1300 to 1600 yards ( ish) .
ELR for me is not just restricted to big magnums : if you are shooting beyond the accepted effective range
of your caliber you are in the ELR zone .
In that situation, holding over is your only option and the wind dots become very useful for wind holds. If the
dots are large, and you are shooting a smaller caliber it can be difficult to see your misses without assistance
from a second or third spotter. I agree with comments in above posts that the T3 reticle was really designed for
DM type role out to 1 k or so. LL did an article on it a long time ago, the wind blobs in the T3 were originally for
308 I think, but someone may be able to provide more info .
EDIT : there’s an instructional video from Horus on You Tube about the T3 reticle if you are interested .
^^ I could do without then at all , but open circles would possibly be less distracting . I’ve used the H59 for
spotting a fair bit and it works fine .
spotting a fair bit and it works fine .
