Features that effect marksmanship

[Bro Mo]

What are different equipment features that help improve marksmanship?

I'm thinking stuff like a vertical grip, thumb shelf, length of pull, riser height, bipods, bags, etc.

I just listened to a podcast referring to rear bags as a beginner tool and a fist as an advanced skill. What types of features and equipment should beginners be looking for?

I also read an article series about how much different things matter on precision rifle blog and an example was that going from a 308win to 6mm Creedmoor had a much higher ROI than improving the accuracy from 1MOA to 1/4MOA.

 

[mtnhunter22]

There’s so much that could go into this. For me being comfortable behind the rifle is one of the biggest things for accuracy. Being comfortable allows you to focus on other aspects of precision rather than how mad you neck hurts, or back, etc.

So for me I start with something with adjustable length of pull, set at 14.5in. Then adjustable check riser typically. Those two things usually get me pretty darn comfortable. I don’t shoot anything but vertical grips anymore so I guess that’s a must also (for me).

From there a rear bag helps tremendously but I think we’ve grown to rely on them a bit too much. Phil velayo has some good videos about “building your bridge” or just proper set up behind a rifle so as not to entirely depend on rear bags.

Anyway a lot more could be said. Will be interesting to see other opinions on this.

 

[seansmd]

Paying for the training section of this forum and taking a live class once the apocalypse passes.

 

[mtnhunter22]

Paying for the training section of this forum and taking a live class once the apocalypse passes.

Forgot this. Live classes can also be very helpful depending on experience levels

 

[Steel head]

Shooter.
Barrel and it’s machine work.
Load development.

 

[Steel head]

Paying for the training section of this forum and taking a live class once the apocalypse passes.

The online classes here were a game changer for me.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Surprisingly, the fundamentals taught in basic training BRM continue to be invaluable 25 years later. You can find them for free if paying for training isn't in the cards.

 

[natdscott]

Equipment differences make up
maybe +/-5% of the marksmanship equation, marksmanship being defined as how well YOU can steer that rifle to make good, centered hits.

Is it easier to shoot an AR well than it is a Springfield? Yep, it do be. The rifle is much better about getting the sights up to your eye (rather than the other way around), it lets you have a more relaxed wrist position, in general, it is lighter, but because of the the smaller cartridge, does not punish with increased recoil, it’s auto-loading design doesn’t force a shooter to rebuild position every shot like a bolt gun does....

...I can keep agoin..

But I’ll be damned but I can shoot a bolt -06 pretty alright, too. All the same things that caused my grandpa to qualify Expert on the 03 are why I can shoot an AR well, and incidentally, were taught pretty close to the same.

The “fundamentals” everybody talks about are indeed just that, and they don’t really change with the rifle or the generation of shooter, but here’s this, that many do NOT realize about that statement:

Those very fundamentals aren’t the “base”....they are the WHOLE DAMN THING. Better than 90% of it is on you as a shooter, and trust me, that 90% that lives in the space between your ears..well, that’s enough space to problem solve for a lifetime without ever solving it all.

Here was what I thought about the same question, pushing a decade ago:

Rifle modifications that increase accuracy the most?

I was thinking about all the many modifications/gunsmithing that can be done to increase a rifle's accuracy and it occurred to me that I've never seen a description of which increase a rifles accuracy the most. And I have no idea what the answer is. So, is bluprinting, is it adding an...

www.sniperforums.com

 

[Lowlight]

Rifle Set up is a key element

It's the same as your car, consider a NASCAR Driver and the efforts to put them in a seat without moving. Think about the location of the seat. vs the steering wheel and pedals. Your rifle is very similar in that set up determines how efficient or how well you execute them.

When I instruct, I talk seats, mirrors and steering wheel. The fundamentals are supposed to be built in, execution should be on a subconscious level, it's the same place the mistakes take place too. Most don't know they are making them.

But if you can't reach the pedal, can't see out of the mirrors, and have to move too much to turn the wheel you are compomising the fundamentals because the brain now has to adapt to these changes or cheat them. A guy conserving energy after 500 laps will be in better shape on the final turn vs the guy who has been fighting the car the entire race. I want to move my eyes, not my head, I want my feet comfortable on the pedals, anything less creates stress, stress is bad.

A stock vs a Chassis is not a fundamental problem, but more adjustability means more comfort, more comfort means the brain is happy, willing to execute the fundamentals as needed, and will not resist. That is where body position comes into play, if your stock is too long and you are shooting a barricade, the stock will kick you off to the side trying to reach the scope, and that changes the recoil management which changes the impact. Me at 5'2" driving a rifle meant for a 6'2" guy is not gonna be correct. I might be able to execute the fundamentals to the best of my ability, but there will certainly be a trade-off in there.

Trigger control, two-stage vs single, maybe with the single-stage trigger they tap it, and not use follow-through, where the two-stage they follow through but crush the trigger. Two errors are seen in two different ways. Single-stage guys tap, 2 stage guys crush.

The 5 shot example many shooters display is not the best, I can take a rifle completely set up for someone else, do great with it under limited use. Take that same rifle and make me shoot it during a 2 day match my scores will certainly suffer.

I want to be one with the rifle, as Tom Cruise taught me in Last Samurai, No Mind. Worry about the fight, worry about the crowd, worry about the sword, no mind, no worry, execute. Tell your brain this feels wrong and your brain won't stop reminding you.

It's why I laugh with levels, guys set them up wrong, use them the wrong way. They have everything working against them without knowing this is happening. Their process is, Get behind the rifle, align the reticle to target and then look at the level, it's off so they straighten it out. Then they go through their mental checklist and their brain stops looking at the level, it's already been corrected. So shot 1 is good, shot 2 they pull the rifle over, a little, not enough to perceive it in the scope so they shoot with it off. Shot 3 pull it over more and shoot again, now they see they are off level and fix it, so Shot 4 is good. Finally Shot 5 is slightly off. They have 3 different positions on the rifle vs one. Or worse they have to stop and fix it every shot because things are really bad.

Shooting a Cause and Effect endeavor, IF you do THIS, the Rifle will DO that, pretty simple. It's a dumb machine, left to its own devices it will do the same thing everytime. We are the wildcard, us and our Brain.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Rifle Set up is a key element

It's the same as your car, consider a NASCAR Driver and the efforts to put them in a seat without moving. Think about the location of the seat. vs the steering wheel and pedals. Your rifle is very similar in that set up determines how efficient or how well you execute them.

When I instruct, I talk seats, mirrors and steering wheel. The fundamentals are supposed to be built in, execution should be on a subconscious level, it's the same place the mistakes take place too. Most don't know they are making them.

But if you can't reach the pedal, can't see out of the mirrors, and have to move too much to turn the wheel you are compomising the fundamentals because the brain now has to adapt to these changes or cheat them. A guy conserving energy after 500 laps will be in better shape on the final turn vs the guy who has been fighting the car the entire race. I want to move my eyes, not my head, I want my feet comfortable on the pedals, anything less creates stress, stress is bad.

A stock vs a Chassis is not a fundamental problem, but more adjustability means more comfort, more comfort means the brain is happy, willing to execute the fundamentals as needed, and will not resist. That is where body position comes into play, if your stock is too long and you are shooting a barricade, the stock will kick you off to the side trying to reach the scope, and that changes the recoil management which changes the impact. Me at 5'2" driving a rifle meant for a 6'2" guy is not gonna be correct. I might be able to execute the fundamentals to the best of my ability, but there will certainly be a trade-off in there.

Trigger control, two-stage vs single, maybe with the single-stage trigger they tap it, and not use follow-through, where the two-stage they follow through but crush the trigger. Two errors are seen in two different ways. Single-stage guys tap, 2 stage guys crush.

The 5 shot example maybe display is not the best, I can take a rifle completely set up for someone else, do great with it under limited use. Take that same rifle and make me shoot it during a 2 day match my scores will certainly suffer.

I want to be one with the rifle, as Tom Cruise taught me in Last Samurai, No Mind. Worry about the fight, worry about the crowd, worry about the sword, no mind, no worry, execute. Tell your brain this feels wrong and your brain won't stop reminding you.

It's why I laugh with levels, guys set them up wrong, use them the wrong way. They have everything working against them without knowing this is happening. Their process is, Get behind the rifle, align the reticle to target and then look at the level, it's off so they straighten it out. Then they go through their mental checklist and their brain stops looking at the level, it's already been corrected. So shot 1 is good, shot 2 they pull the rifle over, a little, not enough to perceive it in the scope so they shoot with it off. Shot 3 pull it over more and shoot again, now they see they are off level and fix it, so Shot 4 is good. Finally Shot 5 is slightly off. They have 3 different positions on the rifle vs one. Or worse they have to stop and fix it every shot because things are really bad.

Shooting a Cause and Effect endeavor, IF you do THIS, the Rifle will DO that, pretty simple. It's a dumb machine, left to its own devices it will do the same thing everytime. We are the wildcard, us and our Brain.

Is it just me, or is there a very large amount of shooters using a stock or chassis with a grip to trigger guard distance that is much too long for them?

I’m constantly seeing jointed trigger fingers that either need to get a closer grip or get up on their finger tips rather than having their palm on the grip way back there.

 

[Lowlight]

Yes,

I have spoken to guys like Tom Manners a ton on this subject, the position of the hand in relationship to the trigger.

There are more and more stocks addressing this, the MCM A10 for me, even the Magpul Pro 700 moves the grip for trigger control

We (Industry) ignore the biggest clue the Olympic Shooters could give us, adjustability.

Because I am smaller I focus on this as much as possible, hand position is bigger than we give it credit.

 

[Lowlight]

Consider this,

Think about my complaints with prop heights, you have what is considered a skill stage on a prop that only fits people over 5'8". So if you take Jake Vibbert at 6FT+ and Me shooting the same barricade Skill Stage, he clearly has an advantage in height. That means my fundamentals are compromised. My brain is bitching the entire time I can't reach. It's not that barricades favor one shooter over another it's that it's considered a skill stage when it does not fit everyone the same.

The math is against me, the barricade height is like 55" tall and I am 62" tall. Now put my rifle on top at 55" and where is my scope, over my head. There is no way I can execute it without getting lucky or compromising. There is no way I can race past it, I need every second to adjust.

These things matter more than people realize when you move to a national level. When score are tight, a single-stage that favors one shooter over another is gonna be a decider. It's easy to dismiss, but again, like in the other thread, ask yourself is this fair? And before you say, well what about Jake inside a culvert vs Me. In all the matches I have shot, there is a more over than under. Yes, I did excellent at Rifles Only on the shots under the table, but not so well if I had to shoot the barrels in the cart. I used the handicap version just because there I can get away with "Cheating" as Jacob doesn't care what I do. I was told on too for shooting the low barrel. We laughed, I wasn't there for a score, I was there to clear my head after my Dad passing the month before.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I’ve gotten to where I base 90% of my stock/chassis selection off the grip to trigger distance.

If I can’t comfortably rest my palm on the grip and get a 90deg trigger finger, it’s junk for me.

Funny, @Terry Cross figured out grip to trigger years ago with the sentinel. All he needs now is a manners like tunable sentinel (hint hint).

 

[Steel head]

Is it just me, or is there a very large amount of shooters using a stock or chassis with a grip to trigger guard distance that is much too long for them?

I’m constantly seeing jointed trigger fingers that either need to get a closer grip or get up on their finger tips rather than having their palm on the grip way back there.

I have fairly big hands and I find a good few of the non adjustable chassis and stocks leave a bit to be desired in that area.

 

[Crabcore]

One thing that I think leads to a lot of the extra long grip to trigger distance is because the rear action screw on a Remington 700 (or clone) ends up between the trigger and the grip. Usually on a chassis this is an AR style grip. This moves that grip further away from the trigger.

If you look at an AI, because they use their own grip, it runs right up to the trigger guard area. This is why I think a lot of people with smaller hands find them comfortable, even though they are fairly bulky grip size.

 

[Lowlight]

One area of this I am "evolving" on is trigger weight, as it clearly has a positive effect by design when setting them lighter.

It sort of took going from extremes. In the past few years, I have played with trigger weight a bit more than previously. Even as low as 2 oz in one case. I was always of the mindset, and it was a USMC carry over thing, a Tactical or Field Rifle should be around 3LBS as a safety measure. Until recently even with my AI Rifles I never touched the triggers. How they came out of the box was fine for me.

I think around my first Calvin Elite I really started to play with this more because that trigger came out of the package super light. Right around an 8oz average if I remember correctly.

When you see 100s of shooter tapping these light triggers and not following through, it was easier to say, "go heavy and follow-through" vs saying "Learn where your balance point is by going lower. Because it is a safety thing, NDs and all, I used to avoid it, better safe than sorry was the thinking.

Since everyone moved to 4oz to 12oz triggers, the question became, where is the balance, and I think that is different for everyone.

My personal balance seems to be around 10oz to 12oz on a single-stage break. I can do lighter correctly but it takes more thought. I want No Mind and a good break which include follow through.

The trigger Tap is the standard for most people, the rifles will let you do it with very little downside beyond the increase in NDs we saw for a while across the board. That is where the education comes in, which again, go back to my other posts today, I think that education is lacking from more than one corner of the precision shooting world.

A properly adjusted trigger can be a feature that affects accuracy, finding that balance is the key.

Yes an AI, especially the legacy chassis fits smaller hands really well. Brings the grip closer, like Terry Cross does too.

 

[j-huskey]

The things said here, about the system fitting you, apply to rifle, shotgun, and pistol.

Shotgun fitting seems a lot art. Let us leave that alone.

In pistol, it's very easy to send people to the store "with 1000 guns in stock" and tell them to pick the one that feels best in your hand.

Unfortunately we dont have the same 1000 options in rifle world.

And, just picking the pistol that feels best has problems. Cant work the slide, insufficient strength. Cant manipulate the trigger, insufficient strength. Cant handle the recoil, cant see the sights, lots of cants.

A good coach and teacher can work you through many of the cants. Correct advice is invaluable. A good teacher who can reach "you" personally is of the highest value.

Since we dont have the store and pistol options in rifle world, the coach, teacher, and advice are a premium value.

Back in the day..... the 1903, the M1 Garand, the M14, were designed around the average citizen who was going to serve. Height, weight, size, and ability had limits to joining, to meet the perceived service need and ability to teach the service weapon.

Each was taught the same time tested fundamentals with a good level of success. Based on past history.

As the trained taught their children, historical examples of fitted weapons show up from a hundred years ago. Those hundred year old fitted weapons still fit certain sized people. The major manufacturers made youth and adult models, with the adult models sizing, closely resembling military weapon sizes. This served the market well enough.

Boy, have things changed !!!!!

There are so many options available now to those who were not lucky enough to receive family, organized competition, or military training, that finding a good teacher today is critical, to
a. Maximize $ value purchase avoiding wasted spending on something that will never fit you. $ is too hard to come by today to waste.
b. Maximize $ value on accessories that help rather than hinder.
c. Maximize $ value on quality accessories like the sight. A cheap pos will stop you dead in your tracks or drive you crazy trying to locate the problem.

All of this, is tempered by what Frank says above. Education. Get the best you can b4 making any major decisions on where your $ is going.

VR

 

[Lowlight]

1956 British Pathe

 

[Crabcore]

the hard part about finding experts is three-fold.

First: it is hard to pick out the real experts and genuinely good advice from all the nonsense on the internet. This forum does a good job of exposing the shams out there, but not everyone is willing to read dozens or hundreds of threads to even learn what they need to learn

Second: Especially over the last few years, things have been changing very rapidly. This makes good advice from even few year ago out of date today.

Thirdly: Too many people thought to be experts, turn out to be anything but. There are numerous cases where institutional knowledge has been passed down as gospel, even though it is wrong. Frank has a bunch of podcasts where he talks about how behind the times a lot of law enforcement training is with respect to employing rifles. Getting advice from a "cop friend who is a swat sniper" may be no better than advice from arfcom. Some of the people who take training and write a review on this forum note these same things.

The only upside, is that newer rifles are growing ever more adjustable, which will hopefully allow the majority of shooters to get that proper fit regardless of the quality or type of advice they my have gotten.

If we take a look at bicycles we see they come in bunch of sizes. If you are buying an expensive bike, you probably go to a bike fitter, get your measurements figured out, and then choose a bike which matches you. Once you get the right size, there are a variety of things you can change to tweak the fit to be perfect or suit your specific preferences.

Maybe what the gun world needs is a "fit rifle". Find out what fits you before spending your cash. For guys that shoot matches, it is usually easy enough to find someone with the thing you want and sk to get behind it. For a new person this isn't probably feasible.

 

[Dthomas3523]

One thing that I think leads to a lot of the extra long grip to trigger distance is because the rear action screw on a Remington 700 (or clone) ends up between the trigger and the grip. Usually on a chassis this is an AR style grip. This moves that grip further away from the trigger.

If you look at an AI, because they use their own grip, it runs right up to the trigger guard area. This is why I think a lot of people with smaller hands find them comfortable, even though they are fairly bulky grip size.

The process of how the stock is built is what does it.

For example, a kmw sentinel has a mold and laid. So, you can move the trigger guard into the grip without much issue.

A stock like a foundation (or any wood stock) is milled or cut. Makes it very hard or impossible to get the trigger guard (action screw) back there.

 

[Dthomas3523]

One area of this I am "evolving" on is trigger weight, as it clearly has a positive effect by design when setting them lighter.

It sort of took going from extremes. In the past few years, I have played with trigger weight a bit more than previously. Even as low as 2 oz in one case. I was always of the mindset, and it was a USMC carry over thing, a Tactical or Field Rifle should be around 3LBS as a safety measure. Until recently even with my AI Rifles I never touched the triggers. How they came out of the box was fine for me.

I think around my first Calvin Elite I really started to play with this more because that trigger came out of the package super light. Right around an 8oz average if I remember correctly.

When you see 100s of shooter tapping these light triggers and not following through, it was easier to say, "go heavy and follow-through" vs saying "Learn where your balance point is by going lower. Because it is a safety thing, NDs and all, I used to avoid it, better safe than sorry was the thinking.

Since everyone moved to 4oz to 12oz triggers, the question became, where is the balance, and I think that is different for everyone.

My personal balance seems to be around 10oz to 12oz on a single-stage break. I can do lighter correctly but it takes more thought. I want No Mind and a good break which include follow through.

The trigger Tap is the standard for most people, the rifles will let you do it with very little downside beyond the increase in NDs we saw for a while across the board. That is where the education comes in, which again, go back to my other posts today, I think that education is lacking from more than one corner of the precision shooting world.

A properly adjusted trigger can be a feature that affects accuracy, finding that balance is the key.

Yes an AI, especially the legacy chassis fits smaller hands really well. Brings the grip closer, like Terry Cross does too.

Agreed. I’m moving to a custom from my AI as my main comp gun so I can run a diamond.

I don’t set it below 1lb (I don’t get good feel with it lower), but I can definitely tell an improvement on timing shots over the stock AI trigger.

But, I think one of the worst things someone can do is go light out of the gate. I think they will find themselves a mid pack shooter faster that way, but will find themselves also not progressing past mid pack.

 

[Lowlight]

It's like the rifle fit,

it's a process, and most people are too impatient for the process.

Like with see with the Comp crowd especially they want the Tips and Tricks yet they don't have a foundation in the fundamental so these "tricks" are their fundamentals. That works in very limited ways, the problem is, this method does not translate well and requires a new set of tricks with each change.

It should be like gather dope, you want to gather data with the trigger, start at 2LBS, goes to 1.5LBS, gets some repetitions in, and then try lower only after mastering the previous version. Positive Repetitions matter to built strong and accurate neural pathways.

 

[j-huskey]

Thirdly: Too many people thought to be experts, turn out to be anything but.
There are numerous cases where institutional knowledge has been passed down as gospel, even though it is wrong.
Frank has a bunch of podcasts where he talks about how behind the times a lot of law enforcement training is with respect to employing rifles.
Getting advice from a "cop friend who is a swat sniper" may be no better than advice from arfcom.

Institutional knowledge passed down...
Frank has noted the institutional knowledge in military sniper manuals has repeatedly been incorrect. For years and years, and military schools still teach from those manuals.
The civilian world started off those mil manuals and stuck with them because the mil did.
Civilian competitors wrote books that went past the mil manuals but continued to quote the manuals.
The government that set the mil training standards and LE standards continued to use those wrong manuals.

In the last 25 years, a combination of military and civilian shooters have debunked the old "wrongs".

Changing the hide bound institutions is a challenge, especially on those wrong things in the manuals. It is changing though.

Teaching people fundamental shooting outside of specialized applications is no different today than of years gone by. Frank has referred to the time issue of teaching legacy skills and just, above, reiterated the need for TIME spent learning the fundamentals, and I separate this from legacy skills like sling use.

Nothing beats quality instruction. As you said, separating the good from bad can be a challenge, especially with a large number of instructors both Mil and LE teaching from institutional manuals that contain some bad information.

Getting advice from a military sniper can be just as bad as from a LE Sniper and arfcom. It's not real hard to figure out which to avoid.

If you cant hit a moa target with a moa or better rifle at 100 yards after their instruction, thats a really big indicator.
Past that can get pretty interesting, cant it ?

Good education is invaluable. I'm waiting on a certain new book to come out, written by this short guy a few of us know..... just sayin...

 

[Bro Mo]

I don't want to embark on the journey of training with crap stuff that doesn't allow me to learn the stuff I need to learn. Right now, I have a B&C M40 stock because the OEM one was really bad. The M40 is better but really far from natural or comfortable. I don't want to use training to polish an equipment turd or vice versa, I don't want to buy hits.

That NASCAR analogy hit home. Rather than bench 225 crappy, bench 185 with good form. I feel like a stock or chassis that fits me is a better way to let the all the future training work its way to the subconscious.

Adjustable chassis and stocks aren't cheap and seem like a buy once, cry once, situation. Are any of the options from MPA, MDT or XLR the best way to ensure I get it to fit me correctly?

 

[j-huskey]

Continuing the history lesson on military weapons and fitting them properly, related to this topic, the m16 travels are a good example.

The first m16 was too short. The A2 lengthened the stock to improve the fit. The handguard was changed to better fit the hand.

The carbine stock went from a three position to a 6 position to allow adjustment.

The other changes were primarily ballistic advantages and reliability.

With the adjustable stock m4, too short by A2 standards, adjusting the shooter to the rifle and adjusting the training to accommodate this further validates the current discussion about fitment and correct education.

I have seen both Frank and DThomas speak of tactics beyond fundamentals that increase the ability to get hits when positions are unstable.

This level of education, teaching tactics beyond fundamentals, makes the education even more critical, and finding competent instructors a first priority.

@Bro Mo,
Your last sentence and question, may bring out some interesting opinions.
In my personal experience, the AI chassis work best for me and 9 out of 10 on my sniper team. That's the best answer I can give you.

Edited to add, they give us length of pull adjustment, cheek piece adjustments, and a good balance point. Equipment attachment points are very adequate.

 

[Lowlight]

MDT, MPA, excellent adjustability and great options to go with.

support the mission with those, competition, tactical, even F Class, good features with plenty of variety to meet needs. You save in the long run because you can go light or heavy, just add weights for pennies. Bag riders, dope holders, night vision bridges, extended rails, to me the chassis is hard to beat.

 

[Reload10]

Save up to get the chassis you want, then if funds don't allow for a custom do a r700 and a prefit and PRACTICE.

 

[mark5pt56]

I "grew up" on a custom 700, stock pad, duct tape, etc. But once I got on a chassis gun, I was sold. I think making the rifle fit YOU is important, be comfortable behind it and then just practice the fundamentals. I also think that a "review" of the fundamentals and having a shooting buddy critique you is a good thing as one may develop bad habits or "get lazy"

 

[AnimalMother224]

not using over the ear hearing protection (e-muffs) ..

 

[Bro Mo]

I've never shot anything with a bunch of adjustment, are all the adjustments like buttpad height and cant useful or just the basics like LOP and riser? Is there any issues with spacers or set screws? Is MDT the only one with an adjustable grip to trigger distance?

 

[mark5pt56]

I think most of the issues with folks and over the ear muffs are their scopes are to low, causing excessive head tilt. Not that one would adjust the scope to fit ear pro, but to attempt to keep the head straight as reasonable possible. The whole legacy "keep the scope low to the barrel" was due to avoiding the layers of cardboard and duct tape. The beauty of the chassis is making it fit you and minimizing effort to be comfortable.

 

[j-huskey]

I've never shot anything with a bunch of adjustment, are all the adjustments like buttpad height and cant useful or just the basics like LOP and riser? Is there any issues with spacers or set screws? Is MDT the only one with an adjustable grip to trigger distance?

Depending on your body shape and musculature, a raised butt plate may help you in a lower prone position. Cant may allow you to shoulder the rifle more consistently.
Length of pull and consistent cheek weld are an essential and those two have to work.
Spacers properly designed are no problem, not with us anyway. Set screws can come loose.
Cant answer any MDT questions. No experience with them.

 

[TheBigCountry]

I noticed @lowlight and @Dthomas3523 mentioned grip to trigger distance, which is something I’ve never considered before in choosing a rifle chassis/stock. What is it exactly, and what effects does it have shooting a rifle correctly?

Also, do the AI chassis’s suffer from this said issue?

 

[Dthomas3523]

On sec. Pics of proper 90deg and pics of jointed trigger press incoming

 

[Dthomas3523]

So, meh. My guns are in pieces for cleaning and such.

Here are two pics. On shows a 90deg angle (1 joint moving) and the other is with two joints.

A grip that is too far away will not allow you to get that 90 degree trigger press without getting up on your fingertips. A closer grip allows it without needing to alter your grip.

Not employing a 90deg makes it easier to steer the rifle left or right during the trigger press. Many, many, many shooters do not employ a 90. Often times those are the guys who the “wind was weird for me”.

 

[Dthomas3523]

The non 90 is “reaching” to get to the trigger.

The 90 is relaxed and has a straight back press.

 

[Runnineh]

Im kind of regretting paying for lowlight's book... Im getting plenty educated on this thread alone.

 

[TheBigCountry]

So, meh. My guns are in pieces for cleaning and such.

Here are two pics. On shows a 90deg angle (1 joint moving) and the other is with two joints.

A grip that is too far away will not allow you to get that 90 degree trigger press without getting up on your fingertips. A closer grip allows it without needing to alter your grip.

Not employing a 90deg makes it easier to steer the rifle left or right during the trigger press. Many, many, many shooters do not employ a 90. Often times those are the guys who the “wind was weird for me”.

Makes perfect sense now, and realize I’ve encountered it on stocks I’ve had in the past (and don’t have anymore). Much appreciated.

 

[C.R. Adams]

Yes,

I have spoken to guys like Tom Manners a ton on this subject, the position of the hand in relationship to the trigger.

There are more and more stocks addressing this, the MCM A10 for me, even the Magpul Pro 700 moves the grip for trigger control

We (Industry) ignore the biggest clue the Olympic Shooters could give us, adjustability.

Because I am smaller I focus on this as much as possible, hand position is bigger than we give it credit.

Anschutz makes a damn nice triggers on their .22's. even my second tier model 64 action has a damn nice trigger two stage trigger with an adjustable position straight shoe. I know it can be adjusted down to 8 oz, not sure about how heavy it goes and IIRC, it can be adjusted to single stage. Anschutz's model 54 use to be their flagship action and had an even better model trigger that could go down to 3oz or so. again i'm not sure how heavy it went up to.

Both triggers have the ability to adjust the position of a straight trigger shoe. At least front and back. i cannot recall if the the 54 has the ability to adjust left and right.

There use to be smith's selling trigger hangers for remington 700 and custom 700 clone actions that allowed the anschutz 54 trigger assemblies to be used rather than Jewels. IMHO, as long as one of the model triggers can be adjusted up to lest say 1lb 12oz and then you have the 3 oz model for the gamers, this is the quick/easy solution to the need to be able to adjust the trigger position and facilitate a 90* trigger finger for folks with hands at the two extremes of smaller/larger than the average hand. it seems Tubb and few other fellas were making the hangers and the hardware needed to make it work.

 

[Steel head]

Im kind of regretting paying for lowlight's book... Im getting plenty educated on this thread alone.

Do the online instruction here.
It’s totally worth the money.

 

[pmclaine]

Buy whatever rifle and features you like....than have an orthopedic surgeon revise your bone structure to fit you to the rifle.

 

[Kir]

What affects your accuracy? :
1. Your eyes
2. your hands/arms steadiness

Everything else is secondary to those two things...

 

[Dthomas3523]

What affects your accuracy? :
1. Your eyes
2. your hands/arms steadiness

Everything else is secondary to those two things...

Definitely not that simple.

 

[j-huskey]

What affects your accuracy? :
1. Your eyes
2. your hands/arms steadiness

Everything else is secondary to those two things...

Respectfully,
1. That couple of pound brain behind those eyes, is the beginning of it all.

Handicapped people have shown eye and hand arm are not the primary in ability to shoot . Critical, but not primary.
The brains ability to overcome disability, adapt, and learn correct or effective adaptive technique, is primary.

All of the equipment improvements we have today, that enhance performance, were first recognized in the educated brain, that learned on some sub par equipment.

OP's educated brain, recognizing the limitations of his current equipment, posed valid questions to learn more, to maximize his investment to become the best he can be.

Good on him.

 

[10ring1]

I've always pushed the belief accuracy is first and foremost a state of mind...confidence in your equipment, ability go a long, long way. As Lowlight said above something to the effect 'your mind wont let u forget it...' . The more we have racing through our mind leading up to a shot can be detrimental. Too much psychological chaos before a shot most likely won't turn out good. I believe that's why many of the youths out there are hammering it cause they just shoot. Use the basic variables for corrections, then send it. It's human nature to overcomplicate things. You need to practice and decide what are the absolute main things you should be focusing on and keep them at the forefront of your mind and leave the rest behind. Find something that works for you and stick with it. May not work for all, but you are shooting for you.

 

[StLPro2A]

What are different equipment features that help improve marksmanship?

I'm thinking stuff like a vertical grip, thumb shelf, length of pull, riser height, bipods, bags, etc.

I just listened to a podcast referring to rear bags as a beginner tool and a fist as an advanced skill. What types of features and equipment should beginners be looking for?

I also read an article series about how much different things matter on precision rifle blog and an example was that going from a 308win to 6mm Creedmoor had a much higher ROI than improving the accuracy from 1MOA to 1/4MOA.

ANYTHING that enhances CONSISTENCY for you personally will improve marksmanship. Consistency is King. Any change must enhance consistency. Pinpoint where your system is inconsistent....including you the shooter. The shooter is also system equipment. Every penny you spend on equipment has to specifically enhance consistency. If you cannot quantify the enhancement in consistency, don't buy it. The shooter is consistently the most inconsistent element in the equation. A consistent shooter will consistently out shoot an inconsistent shooter with the best equipment. Working on shooter consistency is hands down the greatest ROI. Equipment only complements the consistent shooter; it will not make up for an inconsistent shooter. C-o-n-s-i-s-t-e-n-c-y. Oh, and, did I mention consistency??? And, buy once, cry once.....for consistency.

 

[jeffl838]

I didn't really learn how to shoot until I shot my first service rifle match with a kind fellow shooter coaching me through the event. I already had solid fundamentals in terms of sight picture/alignment, body position, trigger control, breathing, but just touching the sport and interacting with a high level shooter broke the first two things down in such an insane way that I think about the lessons I learned that day to this day when I'm prepping for a USPSA match or shooting trap/skeet.

So... a sling, a national match a2, and an older distinguished rifleman?

 

[drheathman]

Be sure to check out the new JP folding chassis, then put an MPA EVG grip on it.

 

[Bro Mo]

After watching more of the videos in the training section, there are so many elements of my equipment that are limiting factors. One example being a locking lever for my bipod. My rear bag needed more fill. A shooting mat would make everything more comfortable. Having my barrel threaded and using a brake. There are a lot of things that can help for the equivalent $1k of a more adjustable chassis. I feel like the cumulative effect of all these little things are greater than the effect of an unknown margin of comfort/fit improvement.

 

[ubettcha]

Gun fit is vital with the shotgun sports. There is no better way to improve your npa than a properly fit rifle. It will be much easier to get behind or shoot from a less stable position if it fits correctly.