Does anyone know which powder comes closest to matching the powder used in the 308 Win. Federal GMM 175 SMK loads? This factory load shoots extremely well in my Remy and I would like to duplicate it as close as possible.
Federal GMM powder?
- Thread starter WyoRanchHand
- Start date
Re: Federal GMM powder?
IMR 4064 looks closest to me and seems to come closest in charge weight vs. velocity, but I have not hit the perfect load yet.
IMR 4064 looks closest to me and seems to come closest in charge weight vs. velocity, but I have not hit the perfect load yet.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
You will never know. Factory powder blends for ammo are different then you can by over the counter for the most part. You can come close but not match it perfectly.
You will never know. Factory powder blends for ammo are different then you can by over the counter for the most part. You can come close but not match it perfectly.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMR 4064 looks closest to me and seems to come closest in charge weight vs. velocity, but I have not hit the perfect load yet. </div></div>
Weird, I pulled a couple open over the summer for a friend and Ball powder came out??? I was expecting RE-15, but I was surprised for sure.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMR 4064 looks closest to me and seems to come closest in charge weight vs. velocity, but I have not hit the perfect load yet. </div></div>
Weird, I pulled a couple open over the summer for a friend and Ball powder came out??? I was expecting RE-15, but I was surprised for sure.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HateCA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You will never know. Factory powder blends for ammo are different then you can by over the counter for the most part. You can come close but not match it perfectly. </div></div>
Plus they will not sell the pixie dust that they sprinkle it with to make it shoot so well in so many rifles.......
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HateCA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You will never know. Factory powder blends for ammo are different then you can by over the counter for the most part. You can come close but not match it perfectly. </div></div>
Plus they will not sell the pixie dust that they sprinkle it with to make it shoot so well in so many rifles.......
Re: Federal GMM powder?
Weird. I just got done pulling some of the 175 grainers and decided to post some pics. Thanks for starting the thread for me!
I only pulled two rounds. First off I did some measurements and came up with this:
2.796" COAL
2.223" COAL to ogive
2.005" empty case
Both rounds had the exact same measurements, and an older box of 168 grain FGMM was the same too. As for powder, the two 175 grain rounds had 42.5 and 42.6 grains of what looks exactly like RL15:
FGMM on the left, and RL15 on the right.
The FGMM powder measured at .031" wide by .061" length for the average sized powder grain chosen at random, and the RL15 that I had handy measured at .030" wide by .061" long. I didn't hang around measuring individual pieces of powder, but picking out normal sized pieces gave the same results. If that powder is not RL15, you could've fooled me. The interesting thing is that the brass was not chamfered, so the bullet was somewhat gouged. There was no crimp, and my inertia bullet puller took two light hits to drop the bullets.
I have spent a lot of time handloading for my rifle, but the 175 FGMM shoots like stupid accurate. I am going to find out how to make it because I'm not stuck on the idea of paying $2 a round.
BTW, these rounds clocked in at 2,534 fps average in my 20" Krieger barreled LR-308.
Weird. I just got done pulling some of the 175 grainers and decided to post some pics. Thanks for starting the thread for me!
I only pulled two rounds. First off I did some measurements and came up with this:
2.796" COAL
2.223" COAL to ogive
2.005" empty case
Both rounds had the exact same measurements, and an older box of 168 grain FGMM was the same too. As for powder, the two 175 grain rounds had 42.5 and 42.6 grains of what looks exactly like RL15:
FGMM on the left, and RL15 on the right.
The FGMM powder measured at .031" wide by .061" length for the average sized powder grain chosen at random, and the RL15 that I had handy measured at .030" wide by .061" long. I didn't hang around measuring individual pieces of powder, but picking out normal sized pieces gave the same results. If that powder is not RL15, you could've fooled me. The interesting thing is that the brass was not chamfered, so the bullet was somewhat gouged. There was no crimp, and my inertia bullet puller took two light hits to drop the bullets.
I have spent a lot of time handloading for my rifle, but the 175 FGMM shoots like stupid accurate. I am going to find out how to make it because I'm not stuck on the idea of paying $2 a round.
BTW, these rounds clocked in at 2,534 fps average in my 20" Krieger barreled LR-308.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
Looking the same and being the same is two different things. It's in the formula of the powder that makes the difference not what it looks like.
This is one way a gun maker can tell if you blow up your gun and say you shoot nothing but factory stuff. They will look at the carbon and powder residue and know if you are lying.
Looking the same and being the same is two different things. It's in the formula of the powder that makes the difference not what it looks like.
This is one way a gun maker can tell if you blow up your gun and say you shoot nothing but factory stuff. They will look at the carbon and powder residue and know if you are lying.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
I say use the same mass of RL15 and some deconstructed FGMM components to make new rounds. Measure the MVs and post your results.
PS "What it looks like" (size, shape, and extrusion features) is also important to how it burns.
I say use the same mass of RL15 and some deconstructed FGMM components to make new rounds. Measure the MVs and post your results.
PS "What it looks like" (size, shape, and extrusion features) is also important to how it burns.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
now all you have to do is load 5 with RL15 the same as the GM and see if the chrono is the same . that would prove it
now all you have to do is load 5 with RL15 the same as the GM and see if the chrono is the same . that would prove it
Re: Federal GMM powder?
It would certainly suggest that you can come close to FGMM for much less money. The temperature sensitivity may be different, for example. Don't expect the accuracy of the reconstructed rounds to be the same as FGMM because pulling the bullet screws with the concentricity of the neck, but the MV should be unaffected.
Nevetheless, anyone who acquires TWO PGW rifles can't be worried about the cost of ammo!!
It would certainly suggest that you can come close to FGMM for much less money. The temperature sensitivity may be different, for example. Don't expect the accuracy of the reconstructed rounds to be the same as FGMM because pulling the bullet screws with the concentricity of the neck, but the MV should be unaffected.
Nevetheless, anyone who acquires TWO PGW rifles can't be worried about the cost of ammo!!
Re: Federal GMM powder?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WyoRanchHand</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anyone know which powder comes closest to matching the powder used in the 308 Win. Federal GMM 175 SMK loads? This factory load shoots extremely well in my Remy and I would like to duplicate it as close as possible. </div></div>
Alliant Reloader 15
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WyoRanchHand</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anyone know which powder comes closest to matching the powder used in the 308 Win. Federal GMM 175 SMK loads? This factory load shoots extremely well in my Remy and I would like to duplicate it as close as possible. </div></div>
Alliant Reloader 15
Re: Federal GMM powder?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMR 4064 looks closest to me and seems to come closest in charge weight vs. velocity, but I have not hit the perfect load yet. </div></div>
IIRC, FGMM powder used to be "close to" IMR 4064 but was changed a few years ago to something "close to" RL-15. I don't recall the details, but I think the change had something to do with one company buying another. Today, Federal Cartridge and Alliant Powder are related companies:
"In December 2001, Alliant Techsystems (ATK), a $2 billion aerospace and defense company, acquired Federal Cartridge Company along with its sister brands CCI, Speer, Outers, RCBS, Estate Cartridge Company, Orbex, Ram-Line, Champion Target, Weaver, Simmons and Redfield, adding them to its well-known Alliant Powder brand. These former Blount and Lehman Brothers properties were reorganized into the Ammunition and Related Products Group."
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMR 4064 looks closest to me and seems to come closest in charge weight vs. velocity, but I have not hit the perfect load yet. </div></div>
IIRC, FGMM powder used to be "close to" IMR 4064 but was changed a few years ago to something "close to" RL-15. I don't recall the details, but I think the change had something to do with one company buying another. Today, Federal Cartridge and Alliant Powder are related companies:
"In December 2001, Alliant Techsystems (ATK), a $2 billion aerospace and defense company, acquired Federal Cartridge Company along with its sister brands CCI, Speer, Outers, RCBS, Estate Cartridge Company, Orbex, Ram-Line, Champion Target, Weaver, Simmons and Redfield, adding them to its well-known Alliant Powder brand. These former Blount and Lehman Brothers properties were reorganized into the Ammunition and Related Products Group."
Re: Federal GMM powder?
I would *guess that FGMM powder is single base vs. double.
I tried it a time back with varget, 4064, and rl-15. I think 4064 is the fastest. With FGMM components, 168 SMKs & 4064 I had matched FGMM dope/precision in 2 Rem factory rifles. But that same load did'nt perform near as tight as FGMM in a LR-308 auto. In retrospect, a counter intuitive exercise. I could never do well in MV and results with 4064 behind 175 SMKs and 178 Amaxs.
I think some of the well-noted FGMM performance is in the soft brass during virgin mass-production and in various chamber. It's relatively forgiving to reload across rifles/chambers in IMO. Just very short lived and less advantagious in the long haul.
I would *guess that FGMM powder is single base vs. double.
I tried it a time back with varget, 4064, and rl-15. I think 4064 is the fastest. With FGMM components, 168 SMKs & 4064 I had matched FGMM dope/precision in 2 Rem factory rifles. But that same load did'nt perform near as tight as FGMM in a LR-308 auto. In retrospect, a counter intuitive exercise. I could never do well in MV and results with 4064 behind 175 SMKs and 178 Amaxs.
I think some of the well-noted FGMM performance is in the soft brass during virgin mass-production and in various chamber. It's relatively forgiving to reload across rifles/chambers in IMO. Just very short lived and less advantagious in the long haul.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: One-Eyed Jack</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Don't expect the accuracy of the reconstructed rounds to be the same as FGMM because pulling the bullet screws with the concentricity of the neck</div></div>
I disagree, having spun FCGM on a runout gauge and seen .005" TIR, I was not impressed. If anything, pulling the bullets and resiziing the case may actually produce a straighter round.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: One-Eyed Jack</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Don't expect the accuracy of the reconstructed rounds to be the same as FGMM because pulling the bullet screws with the concentricity of the neck</div></div>
I disagree, having spun FCGM on a runout gauge and seen .005" TIR, I was not impressed. If anything, pulling the bullets and resiziing the case may actually produce a straighter round.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
Boomer, you may have a point about the brass but I don't know what the physical mechanism might be.
I've noted a lot of accuracy loads involving RL15 and 175SMKs that use about 42.2 grains of powder. That's exactly the amount of RL15 that QuickLoad says will give me 2,600 fps in M118LR cases so I can match the BDC of my MST-100 scope. Not just a coincidence I think, but not obvious either. It's what some people call an accuracy node and reloaders (and the military) have danced around it for some time.
This thread has revived my interest in RL-15 and I'm going to turn out some of my own "FGMM" later this week. I have some water volume data that I took a couple years ago.
Boomer, you may have a point about the brass but I don't know what the physical mechanism might be.
I've noted a lot of accuracy loads involving RL15 and 175SMKs that use about 42.2 grains of powder. That's exactly the amount of RL15 that QuickLoad says will give me 2,600 fps in M118LR cases so I can match the BDC of my MST-100 scope. Not just a coincidence I think, but not obvious either. It's what some people call an accuracy node and reloaders (and the military) have danced around it for some time.
This thread has revived my interest in RL-15 and I'm going to turn out some of my own "FGMM" later this week. I have some water volume data that I took a couple years ago.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 918v</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: One-Eyed Jack</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Don't expect the accuracy of the reconstructed rounds to be the same as FGMM because pulling the bullet screws with the concentricity of the neck</div></div>
I disagree, having spun FCGM on a runout gauge and seen .005" TIR, I was not impressed. If anything, pulling the bullets and resiziing the case may actually produce a straighter round. </div></div>
I didn't mean to imply the case should be resized, only that the bullet be reseated to the same COAL. It's pulling the bullet (even the kinetic hammer thingy) that screws with the neck concentricity, but full length resizing could restore it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 918v</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: One-Eyed Jack</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Don't expect the accuracy of the reconstructed rounds to be the same as FGMM because pulling the bullet screws with the concentricity of the neck</div></div>
I disagree, having spun FCGM on a runout gauge and seen .005" TIR, I was not impressed. If anything, pulling the bullets and resiziing the case may actually produce a straighter round. </div></div>
I didn't mean to imply the case should be resized, only that the bullet be reseated to the same COAL. It's pulling the bullet (even the kinetic hammer thingy) that screws with the neck concentricity, but full length resizing could restore it.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
Pulling the bullet will result in a decreased neck tension as well. That's why the need for resizing.
But what may be causing the increase in runout is bullet shank damage (galling) caused by seating and reseating in the neck. I did a little experiment the other day with Barnes X bullets. I took a new bullet, seated it in a virgin case, and spun it on the gauge, I saw .005" TIR. I pulled that bullet and reseated it in another virgin case. I saw .010" TIR. I pulled that bullet and reseated it in yet another virgin case. Guess what? .015" TIR!!! WTF?
You should have seen that bullet shank. It looked like someone took a belt sander to it. This is why reusing pulled components is a bad idea. They never shoot right: primers, bullets... well maybe powder and the brass, but not the former two.
Pulling the bullet will result in a decreased neck tension as well. That's why the need for resizing.
But what may be causing the increase in runout is bullet shank damage (galling) caused by seating and reseating in the neck. I did a little experiment the other day with Barnes X bullets. I took a new bullet, seated it in a virgin case, and spun it on the gauge, I saw .005" TIR. I pulled that bullet and reseated it in another virgin case. I saw .010" TIR. I pulled that bullet and reseated it in yet another virgin case. Guess what? .015" TIR!!! WTF?
You should have seen that bullet shank. It looked like someone took a belt sander to it. This is why reusing pulled components is a bad idea. They never shoot right: primers, bullets... well maybe powder and the brass, but not the former two.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
In my bullet pulling experiment I didn't even pull the bullets out of the case. I had seated them too short and used the Quinetic Hammer to move the bullet forward slightly, then reseated them to the correct length. The increase in runout was very obvious with my Bersen tool.
I have pulled lots of 175SMKs and not seen the damage you described - I presume it was pretty obvious from your beltsander comment. I use 0.002" neck tension FWIW.
In my bullet pulling experiment I didn't even pull the bullets out of the case. I had seated them too short and used the Quinetic Hammer to move the bullet forward slightly, then reseated them to the correct length. The increase in runout was very obvious with my Bersen tool.
I have pulled lots of 175SMKs and not seen the damage you described - I presume it was pretty obvious from your beltsander comment. I use 0.002" neck tension FWIW.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
I have some FCGM that shaved copper off the shank so bad that it was petaling at the case mouth. I will never ever pay $2 a round again, especially when Hornady match outshoots it at 30% less.
I have some FCGM that shaved copper off the shank so bad that it was petaling at the case mouth. I will never ever pay $2 a round again, especially when Hornady match outshoots it at 30% less.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
I wonder why Federal uses Ball powder in some and extruded in others making the same ammo?......... When I cracked open a few for a friend I was expecting to see extruded powder, I was really surprised when I saw ball. Maybe the stuff my friend has was a particular lot that was made when there was an extreme powder shortage (about 9 months ago). I do know this, it shot stupid accurate out of his AI AE.
Here is what I found when I pulled them:
I wonder why Federal uses Ball powder in some and extruded in others making the same ammo?......... When I cracked open a few for a friend I was expecting to see extruded powder, I was really surprised when I saw ball. Maybe the stuff my friend has was a particular lot that was made when there was an extreme powder shortage (about 9 months ago). I do know this, it shot stupid accurate out of his AI AE.
Here is what I found when I pulled them:
Re: Federal GMM powder?
I read it on the internet sometime ago that FC used ball powder in some of the GM lots. But now you proved it with pictures! I still like Hornady better.
I read it on the internet sometime ago that FC used ball powder in some of the GM lots. But now you proved it with pictures! I still like Hornady better.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
The FGMM match ammo I've pulled had ball powder. Obviously they use some extruded, as well. But there's one thing I've never understood if you are a reloader. Why would you want to duplicate a factory load, when you can work up a load specific to your rifle? Factory ammo (especially 308 Win) is down loaded to function in all 308's. You can get more velocity, better accuracy, and get tighter SD and ES if you load it to your specific rifle. Plus, if one lot shoots well, the next lot your purchase may be a different powder (ball or extruded), which can change up velocities effecting your long range dope. I've never understood the logic in trying to duplicate factory ammo.
The FGMM match ammo I've pulled had ball powder. Obviously they use some extruded, as well. But there's one thing I've never understood if you are a reloader. Why would you want to duplicate a factory load, when you can work up a load specific to your rifle? Factory ammo (especially 308 Win) is down loaded to function in all 308's. You can get more velocity, better accuracy, and get tighter SD and ES if you load it to your specific rifle. Plus, if one lot shoots well, the next lot your purchase may be a different powder (ball or extruded), which can change up velocities effecting your long range dope. I've never understood the logic in trying to duplicate factory ammo.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The FGMM match ammo I've pulled had ball powder. Obviously they use some extruded, as well. But there's one thing I've never understood if you are a reloader. Why would you want to duplicate a factory load, when you can work up a load specific to your rifle? Factory ammo (especially 308 Win) is down loaded to function in all 308's. You can get more velocity, better accuracy, and get tighter SD and ES if you load it to your specific rifle. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #CC0000">Plus, if one lot shoots well, the next lot your purchase may be a different powder (ball or extruded), which can change up velocities effecting your long range dope</span>.</span> I've never understood the logic in trying to duplicate factory ammo. </div></div>
That is why the AMU used to proof-fire samples from FGMM lots before purchasing the whole lot or two.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The FGMM match ammo I've pulled had ball powder. Obviously they use some extruded, as well. But there's one thing I've never understood if you are a reloader. Why would you want to duplicate a factory load, when you can work up a load specific to your rifle? Factory ammo (especially 308 Win) is down loaded to function in all 308's. You can get more velocity, better accuracy, and get tighter SD and ES if you load it to your specific rifle. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #CC0000">Plus, if one lot shoots well, the next lot your purchase may be a different powder (ball or extruded), which can change up velocities effecting your long range dope</span>.</span> I've never understood the logic in trying to duplicate factory ammo. </div></div>
That is why the AMU used to proof-fire samples from FGMM lots before purchasing the whole lot or two.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
Most companies use a powder that is not commercially available to the public and their loads change as the commercial powder changes as well.
I'm assisting a company develop their match ammo and they sent me some of their powder to use. Had no idea what it was and took some stabs at charges last week and found my loads for the speeds I want the rounds to be at. Now I will go back and fine tune from there.
Most companies use a powder that is not commercially available to the public and their loads change as the commercial powder changes as well.
I'm assisting a company develop their match ammo and they sent me some of their powder to use. Had no idea what it was and took some stabs at charges last week and found my loads for the speeds I want the rounds to be at. Now I will go back and fine tune from there.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've never understood the logic in trying to duplicate factory ammo. </div></div>
My reason is that I use FGMM as duty ammo and I don't get enough ammo for the amount of training I do. I would rather have something for training with the same zero and trajectory as my duty load.
However it's getting frustrating and my 175gr loads are more accurate and have better long range manners.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've never understood the logic in trying to duplicate factory ammo. </div></div>
My reason is that I use FGMM as duty ammo and I don't get enough ammo for the amount of training I do. I would rather have something for training with the same zero and trajectory as my duty load.
However it's getting frustrating and my 175gr loads are more accurate and have better long range manners.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
The only FGMM I have right now is a special contract batch of 168gr dated from May 93.
I pulled a couple and they were loaded with 42.2gr of a greenish-grey extruded powder of the right shape/size to be RE15.
The 1989 batch of M852 I have has 43.5gr of a black extruded powder looking like 4064.
Both types pulled reltively easily. For both rounds to use the same bullet, the OAL is quite different, the M852 being seated to 2.819", FGMM being 2.800".
The only FGMM I have right now is a special contract batch of 168gr dated from May 93.
I pulled a couple and they were loaded with 42.2gr of a greenish-grey extruded powder of the right shape/size to be RE15.
The 1989 batch of M852 I have has 43.5gr of a black extruded powder looking like 4064.
Both types pulled reltively easily. For both rounds to use the same bullet, the OAL is quite different, the M852 being seated to 2.819", FGMM being 2.800".
Re: Federal GMM powder?
This may sound crazy but, about 8-10 years ago I wanted to do the same thing so I called Federal and ask them about the powder and charge weight, the answer they gave me was "We use several differant powders, as long as we get the velocity we are after, we don't care about using differant powders. So it sounds like there isn't one spacific power they may use.
This may sound crazy but, about 8-10 years ago I wanted to do the same thing so I called Federal and ask them about the powder and charge weight, the answer they gave me was "We use several differant powders, as long as we get the velocity we are after, we don't care about using differant powders. So it sounds like there isn't one spacific power they may use.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
I think Federal just knows the secret of the Optimum Barrel Time concept. It basically states that there is a certain velocity range that gets the bullet out the end of the barrel at the point in the barrel vibration where the muzzle is moving least; the peak or the trough of the vibration wave. Since this vibration is consistent in the steel used in rifle barrels the optimum barrel time will be the same for a broad number of rifle barrels. Which is why FGGM shoots so well in everybody's rifle. Preachin to the choir, I know...
I think Federal just knows the secret of the Optimum Barrel Time concept. It basically states that there is a certain velocity range that gets the bullet out the end of the barrel at the point in the barrel vibration where the muzzle is moving least; the peak or the trough of the vibration wave. Since this vibration is consistent in the steel used in rifle barrels the optimum barrel time will be the same for a broad number of rifle barrels. Which is why FGGM shoots so well in everybody's rifle. Preachin to the choir, I know...
Re: Federal GMM powder?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill Stoffels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">now all you have to do is load 5 with RL15 the same as the GM and see if the chrono is the same . that would prove it
</div></div>
Not necessarily, as the density of any individual powder can vary from lot to lot. Almost every stick powder I've used needed an adjustment to the measure to get back to the desired charge weight.
PLUS, the same mass of one lot of powder can give MUCH higher speeds than another. My previous lot of 4064 proved that one! 75-100 fps faster with 155-gr bullets, IIRC. Ran out of powder just as I found a good one and had to start all over. I had NEVER had variations of any significance with that stuff before, and the newest lot is right back where the old stuff was.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill Stoffels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">now all you have to do is load 5 with RL15 the same as the GM and see if the chrono is the same . that would prove it
</div></div>
Not necessarily, as the density of any individual powder can vary from lot to lot. Almost every stick powder I've used needed an adjustment to the measure to get back to the desired charge weight.
PLUS, the same mass of one lot of powder can give MUCH higher speeds than another. My previous lot of 4064 proved that one! 75-100 fps faster with 155-gr bullets, IIRC. Ran out of powder just as I found a good one and had to start all over. I had NEVER had variations of any significance with that stuff before, and the newest lot is right back where the old stuff was.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
The whole reason I want to try to duplicate this round is because it shoots so well in my rifle as it is. I am going to get as many as the components as I can and try to make some using RL15.
I was just cruising through my reloading manuals and I only found one that had a charge of RL15 near the 42.5 with a 175 grain bullet, and that was the Lyman manual with a 44.3 grain charge. The Hornady manual was a little under 42 grains for a max load, and the Sierra manual didn't recommend using gun powder at all, or even primers for that matter because it may be too dangerous.
My plan is to buy a couple more boxes of this stuff to test with, and also to build up some of the brass for load development. I'm probably going to start with around 40.something grains of RL15, and work up to 42.6ish with Federal GMM primers, and of course the 175 SMK. I'll start after Christmas and keep my results updated here.
The whole reason I want to try to duplicate this round is because it shoots so well in my rifle as it is. I am going to get as many as the components as I can and try to make some using RL15.
I was just cruising through my reloading manuals and I only found one that had a charge of RL15 near the 42.5 with a 175 grain bullet, and that was the Lyman manual with a 44.3 grain charge. The Hornady manual was a little under 42 grains for a max load, and the Sierra manual didn't recommend using gun powder at all, or even primers for that matter because it may be too dangerous.
My plan is to buy a couple more boxes of this stuff to test with, and also to build up some of the brass for load development. I'm probably going to start with around 40.something grains of RL15, and work up to 42.6ish with Federal GMM primers, and of course the 175 SMK. I'll start after Christmas and keep my results updated here.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
I dont know if it will work. But could someone give me the water capacity of the FGMM cases. I could run it on quickload and see what it come up with. I have these so far from the other post:
2.796" COAL
2.223" COAL to ogive
2.005" empty case
BTW, these rounds clocked in at 2,534 fps average in my 20" Krieger barreled
I will also have to remember how to change the case capacity on quickload. Do you guys think it will work?
I dont know if it will work. But could someone give me the water capacity of the FGMM cases. I could run it on quickload and see what it come up with. I have these so far from the other post:
2.796" COAL
2.223" COAL to ogive
2.005" empty case
BTW, these rounds clocked in at 2,534 fps average in my 20" Krieger barreled
I will also have to remember how to change the case capacity on quickload. Do you guys think it will work?
Re: Federal GMM powder?
I don't have near the knowledge or experience on a reloading bench as you guys but I was trying to get something a little cheaper yet still consistent for banging steel out of my .308. I loaded 43.5 of 4064 under a 168gr SMK using a CCI 7.62 primer (only large rifle primers in the area right now) in once fired FGMM brass. I haven't shot groups with the ammunition yet but I used my dope card for the GMM and took it out to 550 yards this weekend and the dope was identical. I doubt it will shoot as tight at 100 yards but it shot it's ass off on a 12" steel plate hitting 24 of 25 rounds (the miss was beyond my fault).
Granted that's slightly over 2 moa but this was my first ever batch of reloads so I was thrilled. I have no idea how a 31 year old man who's been shooting since he was 5 waited this long to start reloading BUT, I did and now I'm hooked.
I don't have near the knowledge or experience on a reloading bench as you guys but I was trying to get something a little cheaper yet still consistent for banging steel out of my .308. I loaded 43.5 of 4064 under a 168gr SMK using a CCI 7.62 primer (only large rifle primers in the area right now) in once fired FGMM brass. I haven't shot groups with the ammunition yet but I used my dope card for the GMM and took it out to 550 yards this weekend and the dope was identical. I doubt it will shoot as tight at 100 yards but it shot it's ass off on a 12" steel plate hitting 24 of 25 rounds (the miss was beyond my fault).
Granted that's slightly over 2 moa but this was my first ever batch of reloads so I was thrilled. I have no idea how a 31 year old man who's been shooting since he was 5 waited this long to start reloading BUT, I did and now I'm hooked.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Triple 6</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[snip] I called Federal and ask them about the powder and charge weight, the answer they gave me was "We use several differant powders, as long as we get the velocity we are after, we don't care about using differant powders. [snip]</div></div>
I knew that. They all do that with almost all their ammo.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Triple 6</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[snip] I called Federal and ask them about the powder and charge weight, the answer they gave me was "We use several differant powders, as long as we get the velocity we are after, we don't care about using differant powders. [snip]</div></div>
I knew that. They all do that with almost all their ammo.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
I have an early 2000s batch of Federal brass which holds about 56.1-3 grains water as fired from my chamber.
A batch I just bought holds about 55.8, from the original owner's chamber and from mine as well. Seems to make no difference whether the brass was in GMM or any other Federal .308 ammo.
I have an early 2000s batch of Federal brass which holds about 56.1-3 grains water as fired from my chamber.
A batch I just bought holds about 55.8, from the original owner's chamber and from mine as well. Seems to make no difference whether the brass was in GMM or any other Federal .308 ammo.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
Why duplicate factory loads? Not factory loads, <span style="text-decoration: underline">this </span>load! FGMM is a very successful round that works well in a variety of rifles. It may be the best example of the optimum barrel time theory and it can use different powders that are reasonably close in burn speed, at least according to the theory.
Why duplicate factory loads? Not factory loads, <span style="text-decoration: underline">this </span>load! FGMM is a very successful round that works well in a variety of rifles. It may be the best example of the optimum barrel time theory and it can use different powders that are reasonably close in burn speed, at least according to the theory.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
Its pixie dust damnit, I swear! FGMM's success goes beyond OCW, its voodoo.
I just load an IMR4895 load to the same speed and seat my bullets to the same ogive depth as FGMM and the result is a load that shoots good in all my 308s. Maybe not as good as if I tweaked everything to each tube, but good enough for me. Plus if I am short in components and a match sneaks up on me, I just grab some of the FGMM backup stash, and am GTG.
Its pixie dust damnit, I swear! FGMM's success goes beyond OCW, its voodoo.
I just load an IMR4895 load to the same speed and seat my bullets to the same ogive depth as FGMM and the result is a load that shoots good in all my 308s. Maybe not as good as if I tweaked everything to each tube, but good enough for me. Plus if I am short in components and a match sneaks up on me, I just grab some of the FGMM backup stash, and am GTG.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
Everyone, thanks for the input.
I have done some load development with the Varget and 4064 using the 175grn SMK. The reason I wanted to duplicate <span style="font-style: italic">this</span> factory load is because it shot very well in a factory barreled Remy SPS Varmint. It is skim bedded into a B&C light tactical stock.
I only had 10 rounds and only fired two five shot groups. I started with a clean bore with about 3 minutes between groups and 30 seconds between shots. The first group measured .476 and the second measured .323.
I'll have to find the target to take a pic of the larger group.
When I get a chance to run into town I'll pick up some RL15 and work up some loads.
Thanks again for the input.
Everyone, thanks for the input.
I have done some load development with the Varget and 4064 using the 175grn SMK. The reason I wanted to duplicate <span style="font-style: italic">this</span> factory load is because it shot very well in a factory barreled Remy SPS Varmint. It is skim bedded into a B&C light tactical stock.
I only had 10 rounds and only fired two five shot groups. I started with a clean bore with about 3 minutes between groups and 30 seconds between shots. The first group measured .476 and the second measured .323.
I'll have to find the target to take a pic of the larger group.
When I get a chance to run into town I'll pick up some RL15 and work up some loads.
Thanks again for the input.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
Yes, that is one of two groups fired with Fed. GMM with the 175grain SMK. The other group was a little larger at .476 inches.
Yes, that is one of two groups fired with Fed. GMM with the 175grain SMK. The other group was a little larger at .476 inches.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
Hey y'all. A week ago I was loading up some 175 grain SMK rounds in Winchester cases with 42.5 grains of RL15 to try to duplicate the FGMM. I loaded them to 2.223" COAL as measured at the ogive, and decided to use the two pulled rounds from earlier in this post, the same ones in the picture. The odd thing is that both of them measured at 2.238" COAL at the ogive, and they were seated with the same die, and were not done in sequence -- that is, I loaded about half a dozen of the SMKs that I had bought, noticed one of the pulled bullets which Federal advertises as SMK, loaded and measured it, and it was different, then loaded the other one near the end and got the same thing.
Are there two different types of 175 SMK? This is not me fiddling around with the die; I loaded two of these bullets which were marked with a sharpie, at different times in the batch of loads that I was making, and they are noticeably longer. I don't want to pull them and measure the whole bullet, but I just might as I am very curious.
Can anyone tell me if there are different SMKs in 175 grains? Did Sierra give Federal a proprietary bullet to use in the GMM?
Hey y'all. A week ago I was loading up some 175 grain SMK rounds in Winchester cases with 42.5 grains of RL15 to try to duplicate the FGMM. I loaded them to 2.223" COAL as measured at the ogive, and decided to use the two pulled rounds from earlier in this post, the same ones in the picture. The odd thing is that both of them measured at 2.238" COAL at the ogive, and they were seated with the same die, and were not done in sequence -- that is, I loaded about half a dozen of the SMKs that I had bought, noticed one of the pulled bullets which Federal advertises as SMK, loaded and measured it, and it was different, then loaded the other one near the end and got the same thing.
Are there two different types of 175 SMK? This is not me fiddling around with the die; I loaded two of these bullets which were marked with a sharpie, at different times in the batch of loads that I was making, and they are noticeably longer. I don't want to pull them and measure the whole bullet, but I just might as I am very curious.
Can anyone tell me if there are different SMKs in 175 grains? Did Sierra give Federal a proprietary bullet to use in the GMM?
Re: Federal GMM powder?
the fgmm in 168gr shoots great in my ai stocked 5r, my ai and my sps-t. I don't know what it is but I have not been able to load up anything of mine that shoots the same in all my rifles like this stuff does.
the fgmm in 168gr shoots great in my ai stocked 5r, my ai and my sps-t. I don't know what it is but I have not been able to load up anything of mine that shoots the same in all my rifles like this stuff does.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
An update on cloning efforts.
Last weekend I finally got to shoot the first batch of my FGMM clones. Loads were once fired GMM brass, 175 SMK, BR2 primer, 42.5 grains of RL15, 2.223" COAL @ ogive.
Temp was 19 degrees, wind was 10-20 with 30mph gusts, cloudy, cold as shit. Miserable. Since I had originally clocked factory FGMM at 2,521 fps from my rifle (20" Krieger barrel), that was my target velocity for these loads; but when I clocked them it was 63 degrees. I ended up leaving my truck running with the heat on, my rounds on the front seat, and I would load five rounds into a magazine immediately before loading the gun and firing.
I fired two five-round groups, which both ended up right at 1". I don't have the exact measurement handy at the moment. My first shot was rushed, but other than that, all shots felt great.
Velocities were:
2,520
2,525
2,520
2,515
2,496
2,501
2,510
2,487
2,482
2,496
Average 2,505
ES 28
SD 11
Not bad for a first attempt. The difference is a nominal 16fps, which could be because it was cold as shit, or because the primers were different, or a variety of other reasons. Accuracy was not what the factory GMM has produced, but I'll try some more here real soon.
An update on cloning efforts.
Last weekend I finally got to shoot the first batch of my FGMM clones. Loads were once fired GMM brass, 175 SMK, BR2 primer, 42.5 grains of RL15, 2.223" COAL @ ogive.
Temp was 19 degrees, wind was 10-20 with 30mph gusts, cloudy, cold as shit. Miserable. Since I had originally clocked factory FGMM at 2,521 fps from my rifle (20" Krieger barrel), that was my target velocity for these loads; but when I clocked them it was 63 degrees. I ended up leaving my truck running with the heat on, my rounds on the front seat, and I would load five rounds into a magazine immediately before loading the gun and firing.
I fired two five-round groups, which both ended up right at 1". I don't have the exact measurement handy at the moment. My first shot was rushed, but other than that, all shots felt great.
Velocities were:
2,520
2,525
2,520
2,515
2,496
2,501
2,510
2,487
2,482
2,496
Average 2,505
ES 28
SD 11
Not bad for a first attempt. The difference is a nominal 16fps, which could be because it was cold as shit, or because the primers were different, or a variety of other reasons. Accuracy was not what the factory GMM has produced, but I'll try some more here real soon.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
Ok, so it's not as soon as I made out, but here is an update that I posted on another thread here - http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2257795#Post2257795
Quoting myself:
I pulled some FGMM 175 grain loads and measured the powder both by weight and by size awhile back.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...605#Post1507605
My conclusion is that it is 42.5 grains of Reloder 15 with some proprietary coating. I have had some recent luck at duplicating the load using the once fired GM casings with 42.5 grains of RL15, as I am getting the same accuracy, and my confidence in it is 98% right now.
In the past, 175g FGMM clocks in at 2,535ish from my 20" barrel on average at about 500' ASL in 50 degree weather. I tried the 42.5 grains in the once fired GM case over a year ago when it was 17 degrees out, but I kept the ammo in my truck with the heat on until I shot it, where it clocked in at 2,505 fps average for ten rounds. Pretty close all things considered, except my accuracy wasn't great. About two weeks ago I tried the same scenario again with the same loads, only it was 30 degrees, ammo kept out on the bench this time, and my velocity average was 2,461 fps average for ten rounds. Sounds about right to me, and the accuracy was there this time.
In my experience, the difference in velocity due to temperature is on par with other loads that I have used with RL15. I used CCI BR2 primers with these loads, and loaded them to 2.223" OAL to ogive, or 2.800" COAL with a 175 grain SMK. I have 20 more of them loaded now, and will post an update again to show how they do.
Ok, so it's not as soon as I made out, but here is an update that I posted on another thread here - http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2257795#Post2257795
Quoting myself:
I pulled some FGMM 175 grain loads and measured the powder both by weight and by size awhile back.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...605#Post1507605
My conclusion is that it is 42.5 grains of Reloder 15 with some proprietary coating. I have had some recent luck at duplicating the load using the once fired GM casings with 42.5 grains of RL15, as I am getting the same accuracy, and my confidence in it is 98% right now.
In the past, 175g FGMM clocks in at 2,535ish from my 20" barrel on average at about 500' ASL in 50 degree weather. I tried the 42.5 grains in the once fired GM case over a year ago when it was 17 degrees out, but I kept the ammo in my truck with the heat on until I shot it, where it clocked in at 2,505 fps average for ten rounds. Pretty close all things considered, except my accuracy wasn't great. About two weeks ago I tried the same scenario again with the same loads, only it was 30 degrees, ammo kept out on the bench this time, and my velocity average was 2,461 fps average for ten rounds. Sounds about right to me, and the accuracy was there this time.
In my experience, the difference in velocity due to temperature is on par with other loads that I have used with RL15. I used CCI BR2 primers with these loads, and loaded them to 2.223" OAL to ogive, or 2.800" COAL with a 175 grain SMK. I have 20 more of them loaded now, and will post an update again to show how they do.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
I have been told by a rather reliable source that FGMM powder is indeed IMR 4064. I don't buy the RL15 idea because RL15 is cut too short and FGMM powder is a long cut.. And I know this means nothing but...I swear the IMR 4064 looks absolutely identical to what is in FGMM 168 and 175. And by pulling several rounds of different lots of 175SMK they seen to be rather inconsistent in powder charge weights. Which have ranged as much as 43.0-43.4 grains from a 20 round box. These were put back together and shot, yielding sub .6" groups consistently out my stock Rem 5R (.308). Amazing I thought. They had good great SDs of 6-8fps commonly. Although I have gotten SDs of 5 out of a box of FGMM 168. I have also emptied a 20 round box of FGMM175 and then recharged them all with the average charge weight of box which in this case was 43.2 grains. They yielded SDs of 4!
Consequently my go to load in my 5r is 43.2 grains of RL15. I had also worked up a load with IMR 4064 which also came to 43.2 grains in FGMM once fired brass neck sized BR2 primer. I only chose to shoot the RL15 because I had more of it than the 4064 and I found the RL15 to slightly more consistent in grouping and Chrono data.
With that said either will work for a duplicate IMO, but IMR4064 seems to be more authentic.
I have been told by a rather reliable source that FGMM powder is indeed IMR 4064. I don't buy the RL15 idea because RL15 is cut too short and FGMM powder is a long cut.. And I know this means nothing but...I swear the IMR 4064 looks absolutely identical to what is in FGMM 168 and 175. And by pulling several rounds of different lots of 175SMK they seen to be rather inconsistent in powder charge weights. Which have ranged as much as 43.0-43.4 grains from a 20 round box. These were put back together and shot, yielding sub .6" groups consistently out my stock Rem 5R (.308). Amazing I thought. They had good great SDs of 6-8fps commonly. Although I have gotten SDs of 5 out of a box of FGMM 168. I have also emptied a 20 round box of FGMM175 and then recharged them all with the average charge weight of box which in this case was 43.2 grains. They yielded SDs of 4!
Consequently my go to load in my 5r is 43.2 grains of RL15. I had also worked up a load with IMR 4064 which also came to 43.2 grains in FGMM once fired brass neck sized BR2 primer. I only chose to shoot the RL15 because I had more of it than the 4064 and I found the RL15 to slightly more consistent in grouping and Chrono data.
With that said either will work for a duplicate IMO, but IMR4064 seems to be more authentic.
Re: Federal GMM powder?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The FGMM match ammo I've pulled had ball powder. Obviously they use some extruded, as well. But there's one thing I've never understood if you are a reloader. Why would you want to duplicate a factory load, when you can work up a load specific to your rifle? Factory ammo (especially 308 Win) is down loaded to function in all 308's. You can get more velocity, better accuracy, and get tighter SD and ES if you load it to your specific rifle. Plus, if one lot shoots well, the next lot your purchase may be a different powder (ball or extruded), which can change up velocities effecting your long range dope. I've never understood the logic in trying to duplicate factory ammo. </div></div>
+1
No sense in trying to duplicate any factory load. Since manufacturers have ballistics labs available and use non-canister grade powders/their own boutique formulations/price/availability factors; their factory load is a constant moving target. They will tweak their load with whatever powder, primer combination until it fits into the pressure profile they want/need. Most reloaders don't have access to those kind of facilities. So, if you're trying to duplicate any factory load, you're flying half blind. You might be able to duplicate the external ballistics but you have no idea what's going on with internal ballistics. To a manufacturer, the specific powder doesn't matter, as they know what internal ballistics parameters they are looking for and have a much wider variety of powders to chose from to achieve it. Some of these non-canister grade powders are standardized and data collected..... then released to "us" as a canister grade powder. For as many canister grade powders we have, manufactures have probably another order of magnitude more number of choices that fit between.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The FGMM match ammo I've pulled had ball powder. Obviously they use some extruded, as well. But there's one thing I've never understood if you are a reloader. Why would you want to duplicate a factory load, when you can work up a load specific to your rifle? Factory ammo (especially 308 Win) is down loaded to function in all 308's. You can get more velocity, better accuracy, and get tighter SD and ES if you load it to your specific rifle. Plus, if one lot shoots well, the next lot your purchase may be a different powder (ball or extruded), which can change up velocities effecting your long range dope. I've never understood the logic in trying to duplicate factory ammo. </div></div>
+1
No sense in trying to duplicate any factory load. Since manufacturers have ballistics labs available and use non-canister grade powders/their own boutique formulations/price/availability factors; their factory load is a constant moving target. They will tweak their load with whatever powder, primer combination until it fits into the pressure profile they want/need. Most reloaders don't have access to those kind of facilities. So, if you're trying to duplicate any factory load, you're flying half blind. You might be able to duplicate the external ballistics but you have no idea what's going on with internal ballistics. To a manufacturer, the specific powder doesn't matter, as they know what internal ballistics parameters they are looking for and have a much wider variety of powders to chose from to achieve it. Some of these non-canister grade powders are standardized and data collected..... then released to "us" as a canister grade powder. For as many canister grade powders we have, manufactures have probably another order of magnitude more number of choices that fit between.
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