• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

Finnish M39-SOV Project BUILD FINISHED

BasraBoy

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 29, 2008
2,351
9
63
Dark Side of the Moon
With all the talk on the Hide Vintage Forum about the Mosin Nagant I've finally got round to looking at a project I first thought about around five years ago. Other builds/purchases got in the way but I got here at last.

Anyway...to business - the scope of the project is exactly the same as my USMC M1903A1 - that is to build a close replica of this rare WW2 "precision" rifle using genuine or high quality reproduction parts so that the modern day shooter can enjoy the challenges and experience of shooting these classic/vintage rifles without the expense of an original or the risk of damaging an original, irreplaceable historical firearm.

First...the donor rifle:

I have never seen an M39 in the UK. Lots of M44 carbines, plenty of M91/30 but...no M39.

The M39 appeals because of (a) it's rarity - it'll be something "different" (one of my smith's main motivators for all his projects) and (b) because from what I've read the Finnish rifles offer a better level of quality and accuracy over their Russian cousins.

Lack of availability of the M39 in the UK is one of the main reasons why the build never happened before. So, no alternative but to import.

I spoke to a business colleague in Finland who called me back after a search to tell me...no good ones left in Finland, they've all gone to the US or are being held onto by their Finnish owners!

Enter Hide member Joop!

Joop very kindly put me in touch with one of his contacts in the US who had several to choose from (Thanks Joop!! Beer...or is it Vodka?...is on me!).

I'll admit, I was initially concerned about buying a rifle blind on the internet, but Joop's recommendation and the direct contact with Pat (the seller) gave me confidence to take the risk.

After a couple of conversations with Pat on the phone about a number of the rifles that were available, some emails and pics, I settled on a '44 dated VKT rifle that had been reworked post war.

Mind you, if I'd been after a rifle to keep in original condition there was an all matching '41 Sako in well-marked and mint wartime stock that I'd have snapped up! Maybe another time.....
wink.gif


As with my No4 and 1903 donor rifles on previous projects, the fact that this was reworked/rebuilt was one of the main reasons for choosing this rifle over a more "intact" original in a wartime stock. I feel more comfotable getting FTR'd/arsenal refinished rifles worked on.

It arrived today
laugh.gif


M39SOV006.jpg

M39SOV002.jpg


Crown looks in good shape, no major issues that I can see:

M39SOVcrown001.jpg


The bore is in fantastic condition - sharp and mirror bright. Will test my photography "skills" at the weekend and see if I can get a shot.

The rifle is now housed in a post war square joint stock:

M39SOV008.jpg


The stock appears overall to be in very good condition - only very minor surface scratches. It is a bit rough around the edges at the sharp end (see below, will know more when the rifle is stripped and inspected). There is a small nick out of the rear edge by the butt plate but it seems pretty minor:

M39SOV001.jpg


There appear to be multiple numbers on the rifle. The bottom metal is not numbered at all. <span style="text-decoration: line-through">The sight base is possibly a mismatch?</span> <span style="font-style: italic">Edited...as tommeboy points out below the numbers on the side of the sight base are distance calibrations - DOH! Mosin newbie mistake on my part </span>
blush.gif
:

M39SOV009.jpg

M39SOV010.jpg


Only things that really shout at me so far are some areas of rust and minor pitting on the metal work (see below, will talk to Paul about possible returning all metal work to the white and rebluing)

M39SOVforeendandbarrel003.jpg


and the slivers of wood sticking out of the fore-end. Hoping this isn't a problem. The front end all seems very secure and no signs of cracking or movement in the handguard....just dodgy Arctic Birch or some seriously bad shiming to secure the handguard?

M39SOVforeendandbarrel001.jpg


But all in all - looks good to go!

Next step will be to get the rifle down to Paul at TVG for stripping and inspection in a couple of weeks or so....then join his growing waiting list for the work to be done.

We're thinking that this one could benefit from return to "as new" restoration....
 
Last edited:
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

The scope we'll use is a 1937 Soviet built PEM. I posted some pics of this some months ago but here's a refresher:

M39SOV011.jpg

M39SOV014.jpg

M39SOV015.jpg


This scope is a beautiful piece of work - it feels very solid and robust, fit and finish are excellent. The turrets move freely and very smoothly - nothing "tractor factory" about this.

Optics are clear and the lenses unmarked. Reticle is the classic three post style. Mag is x4 - the barn /truck are 200yds from my back window:

PEMScope008.jpg


Repro scope caps are from Hide member "saddler" here in the UK.

 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

The scope mount is the hex mount for the receiver. I bought this from Accumount. It comes complete with the correct size taps, drills and screws.

For the true perfectionists, the thumb screws are not an accurate reproduction of the rounded version most often seen on pictures of the very rare originals. Maybe at some stage I can find some that look closer to the originals, but - for now at least - they'll do.

M39SOV018.jpg
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

The only other part we need is a turned down bolt.

Paul has recently done a project for himself on a M91/30 and cut the original bolt. Whilst it turned out well, I'd like to try to keep the original bolt intact in case I ever want to revert to original configuration in the future.

So I've purchased an Accumount shroud with the turned down handle with the serial number engraved:

M39SOV020.jpg


As with the M1903 bolt saga...the rifle will have to undergo a UK Proof Test if we use this part. Whether we use it or not will depend on whether it headspaces correctly.
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

I love my M39. Looking forward to this project. Might have to get another one...
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

The #'s on your rear sight base are the #'s in meters to use to set the range to shoot at.
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

Thanks for that. It's my first Mosin.I'd thought it was a different serial number. Now you've pointed it out, it's easy to see. Edited original post to correct my error.

I'm guessing that the scored out number on the receiver was the original Russian serial nuumber?

 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

Quiet day today...so back to the M39.

Needed to check the scope in the mount.

Accumount say on their website that the ring size on the mount is 26.5mm. Problem is the PEM has a 27.5mm tube.

When I ordered the mount I pointed this out but the guy at Accumount told me...no problem the details on the website are incorrect...it'll fit.

So checked the tube diameter again:

Accumount001.jpg


Took the upper ring halves off the mount and sat the scope in the cradle, expecting it to sit nicely ...no way does it fit (at least not without doing irrepairable damage to the tube):

Accumount003.jpg


Here's why:

Accumount004.jpg


Looks like the measurements on the Accumount site are correct...it's just the mount is too small for an original PEM. I'd suspect they are probably tight on their own repro scope that they say has a tube diameter of 27mm

I'm sure this is not a major problem (as long as we don't have to take too much metal off the rings)...and truing and lapping these rings is probably a good idea even if you have a scope that fits (PU?).

But taking out 0.5mm is a bit more "lapping" than I'd expected.
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

Hi Basra mate,
The condition of that scope (and indeed the whole rifle) is very impressive.

as for your issue with the mount/ring diameter, do you happen to know a machinist that owes you any favours? I'd accurately set it up in a milling machine and pass a boring head through both rings in tandem with several light cuts (hopefully the assembly would have the required rigidity). The dia issue would be solved as would the allignment & if the feed is fine enough on the finishing cut it probably wouldn't require further finishing/honing.
Anyway just a thought?


After seeing the quality of your springfield project, I'll be following the progress on this one with great interest.
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

Sorry for not getting to this thread sooner, but I've been busy.

You got a great looking rifle and I'm glad it worked out for you. That's a bummer about the mount/scope fit and I'm surprised to see it. However, I don't think that lapping the rings should be too big of a problem.

As for the wood chips at the nose, I would start by getting that cleaned up and see how the barrel wants to sit in the stock. If you can get it floating to start with, that's good. It may or may not want some pressure on it, depending on how the action sits in the stock. I had a '42 VKT that liked a little pressure from the front band. My '43 Sako does not and prefers to be completely floating. I'm curious to see how yours does and what it prefers.

I'll be following this one, for sure!

John
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

BL400, Joop

Thanks for the comments chaps.

BL400 - yep, the scope is in great condition...some very small patches where the bluing on the tube is wearing and very slight scope rings (more just discolouration than indents in the steel. You can make them out in the middle shot in the post above...just in front of the scope ring). Should really do a comparison with my pre-war Zeiss scopes...but I'd say the Russian glass is pretty much on a par with them.

I seem to recall reading that the Russians either nicked the design or had the Germans set up their optics factory under the pre-1941 non-aggression pact?? Will have to check it out again...

On the rings - Paul has a tame engineer and uses his facilities and engineering bed when checking alignments of scopes to bore and drilling/mounting etc. I am sure between them they can get the mount/ring issue squared away. Paul doesn't seem overly concerned about it at this stage.

To be fair to the guys at Accumount...the quality of their products is generally good and Paul uses them regularly on a number of his projects. Just mentioned the issue to flag up the discrepancy to anyone else looking at this mount as something to be aware of.

Joop, on the wood - I've found a replacement "NOS" handguard in Finland ($15) so have ordered one in as a standby. Paul had already warned me, based on his experience with the Russian MN's, that the Arctic Birch can be a bit problematic and brittle due to it's growing conditions compared to Brit/US/German walnut, beech or German laminates .

Very interested to hear about the tolerance on floating/fore-end pressure.....sounds a bit hit-and-miss? Not like an Enfield where there is a known pressure to apply.

A whole new gun to learn!!
smile.gif
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

Nice project BasraBoy - thanks for sharing! Im diehard fan of Finnish mosins too.

About "86432" -marking, there are LOTS of old mosins registered with number in Finland. Acually they are russian origin, unit beeing "arsin" instead of meters or yards.

Birchwood is pretty good- but in case you want to tune that chipped fore-part of it, consider using metal sleeve/tube on that contact point inside stock.
M39 predecessor, M28-30 had it so it wouldnt hurt idea keeping rifle original too much.
In M28-30 the idea was to minimize moisture/weather effect, as well as keep barrel/stock friction constant between shots. I presume only reason it wasnt copied to following M39 were expenses and time. They needed lots of M39 because war broke out and corners had to be cutted.

Does your sight range markings on top start from 1.5 btw?
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

JL - thanks for the appreciation and also the suggestion on the metal sleeve.

Was this a standard part or was it more a unit/armourer modification? Would be great to get some more information on that and whether there is anywhere to find such a part.

On the sight ramp, yes it starts at 150m:

M39rearsightleaf002.jpg
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

A further note on the Accumount....tried a dry fit on the hex receiver lower half.

Same problem as the rings.

The mount is under-sized and way too narrow to fit over the receiver. Going to need additional machining to get it to sit correctly:

M39Hexmount.jpg


I can understand that back in the 1890's maybe the receivers were manufactured to greater/different tolerances than we might expect today..or that there were differences between different production plants...but...this much? Wondering what's going on.

Would be interested to hear from others who have experience of any Accumount products as to whether this under-sizing is common/deliberate so that they can be machined to an exact fit...or whether it is just poor production.

Also starting to wonder what surprises lie in store with the bolt shroud......
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

Asked about sight ramp markings just out of curiosity- M28-30 sight is identical except that first marked range is "2", not "1.5" This was upgraded to M39 for user clarity.
Obiviously it doesent matter- it just that M28-30 sights are rare compared to M39...
smile.gif


In my opinion, M28-30 is the best mosin ever for couple of reasons:

- It already had best sights including all mosins. Same sight was used in following M39.
- Barrels were tighter .308, and made during peace time
- Rifles were used as Civil Guard´s personal competition rifles- therefore they used best quality barrels available then. Headspaces were also carefully adjusted.
- It had improved trigger with small coil-spring. This eliminated long pre-travel. Spring was not used in following M39
- Stock had integrated sleeve to minimize barrel-stock friction
- Original M28-30 "dog collar" sling has arm loop and can be used as US M1907 sling. Unfortunately its very, very rare even in Finland- but I have one new in mine
smile.gif

M39 sling was simplified.

About sights-
We measured sight with micrometer and calculated actual correction against Lapua´s modern radar data. M28-30 was originally designed for Lapua 12gram D46/47 bullet, and its still in production.
Amazingly enough- it was damn close if not perfect match- <span style="text-decoration: underline">up to</span> 2000m meters. It was so close we had to check calculations twice. Not too shabby!
cool.gif


M28-30 front end:

ej7ps3.jpg




Aluminium sleeve edge exposed

2rzdhkn.jpg



... and pulled out.
If you look carefully- you can see horizontal file marks. Those are original- they were hand-fitted inside stock.

wtfxia.jpg
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

JL - thanks for those pics...very interesting.

Will be a great help when I get the rifle stripped and see what's lurking under the wood.

The nosecap on the 28/30 certainly looks like a much better design to protect the fore-end. The M39 version is just a clamp and provides no protection to the end of the stock....hence why mine looks a little mashed I guess.

Do you know anyone in Finland or elsewhere making repro hex receiver scope mounts for M39 (just in case the Accumount proves to be "difficult"...or do I mean unusable
wink.gif
)?

When I was looking for parts for the build I heard that there were also some made in the Ukraine....but never found them.
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

Sorry- I have never seen those "saddlemounts" here. Even scoped are rare, and those are usually with PU scopes with sidemount.

But, later TKIV-85 mounts are for sale occasionally, I wonder could it be fitted to early reciever..hmm. it would be rock-solid.

KIV-85 has bedding sleeve/block over barrel, cant remember from top of my head if attachement point (dovetail) is machinet on that sleeve or on reciever.
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

Thanks JL.

Worst case , if the Accumount is a no-go, I can always look at switching to the Ajack fitted version with the side mount and keeping the PEM for another project!
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

TKIV-85 and mount- reciever doverail unfortunately not too visible.
I took this photo many years ago, and found it with google!!! no idea how it end up there..

762_TKIV85_uses_Mosinparts_e.jpg
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

Got the M39 down to Paul and we went over the project, inspected the rifle/parts and stripped the rifle down.

The rifle and stock are in great condition as expected. Paul was stunned by the difference in the quality of parts and workmanship on the Finnish parts compared to the Russian equivalents.

Once we removed the wood it seemed that the slivers mentioned above were indeed intended as some sort of packing under the front handguard. This is what we removed:

124.jpg


The longest piece is about an inch long. Not entirely sure why they were there as, once reassembled, there appeared to be no movement in the stock/handguard.

Only other point Paul noted was that there appeared to be this bedding block pinned into the stock:

122.jpg


This differs from Russian Mosins Paul has worked on and he was not sure if this was an original Finnish feature or something added by somebody else later on.

If anybody has any info on this, it'd be most welcome.

The really big issue is as already flagged up - the undersized rings on the Accumount scope mount. Paul used a digital caliper and confirmed the Accumouunt rings measure 26.15mm diameter. the scope tube is 27.5mm...so a bit worse than I thought.

Going to have to give some thought on how to deal with this as Paul is worried that removing this much difference from the rings could leave them too thin to do the job. Also securing the mount so as to avoid it flexing when machined could be a problem - he's leaning towards making up a correct diameter lapping bar and doing it the "old fashioned" way!

First job he will tackle is replacing the bolt with the Accumount turned-down shroud, checking headspace and then get the rifle UK proofed before we start going too far into the build and running up costs.

No proof or failing the proof test would mean instant canning of theproject so best to get that done.

As I'm not sure of the history of the rifle, when it was last serviced or shot, this is a good step to make sure that it is still in safe/shootable condition.

More as it happens.
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

Looking good!

The metal shims behind the recoil lug are typical Finnish. You will find them on many M39s and this is not a "Bubba" feature. For the rest of it, when it's time to start accurizing it, I would start by tightening the action in the stock and seeing how the barrel rests in the channel, as well as how the handguard interacts with it. Note any points at which it contacts the barrel and just shoot it, as is, first. If it's not satisfacory, then I would start changing things from there, beginning with free floating the barrel, if it isn't already. In my experience with M39s, some of them like to be completely floating, while others do not. I think it depends on how the action/stock interact on a particular rifle.

John
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

Thanks John, I guessed you'd be the guy to advise on those shims
wink.gif


I'm not sure about the barrel channel as we didn't really check it today but there seemed to be a fair bit of material removed from the bottom of the stock behind the bedding block pictured and there was a clear pressure point in the wood on the front of the stock where the nosecap fits.
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

Great project!
I agree with Joop, A M39's lay in the stock should be left "as is" until shooting it proves otherwise. The Finns were very careful about the assembly of their rifles, there's usually little to improve upon except ammunition. I also don't know what to make of the splinters under the handguard. I'd bet it was accidental.
Mark
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

Thanks hlavinka.

Yep, those splinters are a mystery...there was no sign of them originating inside the stock or handguard as they are both clean and intact.
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

If the handguard is clamping down on the barrel at the end, here's how I would proceed:

With the nosecaps srcrew at it's tightest setting, shoot a group. Then proceed to shoot more groups as you loosen that screw about a quarter turn in between each group. Also, you should shoot a group wit the handguard off, for a comparison.
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

As soon as we're at that stage I'll definitely take that advice. Thanks John.

But that might not be for some time yet. I'm No.7 in Pauls' schedule of work...only that high as he put me in as soon as I got the rifle in my hands last month!
smile.gif
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

Are you sure about having to have it pressure tested? The bolt handle on a Mosin has nothing to do with the headspace. The bolt head sets the headspace.
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tomme boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you sure about having to have it pressure tested? The bolt handle on a Mosin has nothing to do with the headspace. The bolt head sets the headspace. </div></div>
He's in the UK. If I'm not mistaken, the law there states that any rifle needs to be pressure proofed and stamped as such. I'm sure the OP can elaborate with the details, but it's the barrel and receiver that are really being proofed. Not the headspace.
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tomme boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you sure about having to have it pressure tested? The bolt handle on a Mosin has nothing to do with the headspace. The bolt head sets the headspace. </div></div>
He's in the UK. If I'm not mistaken, the law there states that any rifle needs to be pressure proofed and stamped as such. I'm sure the OP can elaborate with the details, but it's the barrel and receiver that are really being proofed. Not the headspace. </div></div>

tommeboy, Joop - a couple of issue govern this:

1) It is permitted for a UK FAC holder to personally import UK legal firearms that originate from either a CIP regulated or non-CIP regulated country for personal use without the need to reproof.

It is however illegal to trade/deal/sell non-CIP regulated origin firearms without having them UK proofed.

So, if a UK dealer imports a non-CIP origin firearm, they have to have it re-proofed prior to sale. My 1903 went this route.

But...I can buy and personally import a firearm from a non-CIP country (such as the US) and use it legally in the UK without a UK proof as is the case with my GA Precision. If I come to sell it, I will have to have it UK proofed prior to selling/transfering.

Hope that's clear?
wink.gif


Although Finland are CIP regulated, as this rifle is 70 years old and of unknown history, it just seems sensible to get it serviced and proof tested just to be safe.

2) Any work (whether modification or replacement) that affects components defined as "pressure bearing" under UK firearms law requries those components to be proofed/reproofed. This covers such things as bolts, receivers, barrels, moderators/suppressors.

On the specific issue of the Accumount bolt shroud - we wil only use that if it passes Paul's headspace check. It would therefore need proofing as a new "pressure bearing" component

It is not necessary to reproof in the UK if the original bolt is used but the handle is cut and reshaped.
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

Thanks for the clarification.
wink.gif
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

Like all laws...there are plenty of questions.

Not sure how/whether any proof testing that may have been done in what are now CIP member states during the 30's or 40's would measure up to the CIP regs today.

But as acceptance seems to apply retrospectively and pre-date CIP membership....I'm not really minded to investigate the small print unless my safety or the legality of my firearms is in question
wink.gif
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

I have not seen the hex bases available here n the USA in a long time, possibly for the reason shown in your picture. Having sold the bulk of my Finn's over the last few years (11) I no longer have downer rifles but I am watching your project with great interest. It reminds me of the scraping to proprely fit brackets to the #4 Enfield.

Good Luck.

..MJ..

89054555.jpg
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

MJ - thanks! Nice looking rifles. You sold them both?

The No4T was the rifle that got me into doing these project rifles in the first place. Luckily original and very good repro parts for that build were pretty easy to find here in the UK. I ran a thread on that one in the Bolt Action forum in the days before the Vintage Forum. Ended up with this:

No4T003.jpg


Been hooked ever since!
wink.gif


 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

I sold eleven and these are the keepers.
b6383087.jpg


Lots of stuff under the tables at Bisley if you dig around.

10b09377.jpg


I need to get back there soon.

Cheers
..MJ..
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

MJ1,
I'd give my "left one" for that PH sight in the pic above!
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hlavinka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MJ1,
I'd give my "left one" for that PH sight in the pic above!
</div></div>

Sorry I need a "right one" ,LOL.

Thanks for the comment.

..MJ..
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BL400, Joop

....

Very interested to hear about the tolerance on floating/fore-end pressure.....sounds a bit hit-and-miss? Not like an Enfield where there is a known pressure to apply.

A whole new gun to learn!!
smile.gif
</div></div>

On my M39s (1 VKT and 2 Sako made) nose caps are all tight and barrels are clamped, unlike Enfield setup.

I just got some weird theory to share - M39 nose cup is a part of bayonet mounting system, which is different from MN91/30 and Enfield, both of which have bayonet attached to the barrel only. Anyway, could it be that M39 simply needed such "tight" arrangement to reliably mount and support bayonet? From this point of view, front barrel sleeve of M28/30 makes a lot of sense as means to stabilize accuracy.

Just a thought which came to me while reading the posts...

In general, I would think that pre-set bottom pressure onto the end of the barrel (Enfiled style) provides significant advantage for the accuracy of relatively long barrels. M39, theoretically, should benefit from Enfield style pressure point at the end of the barrel.
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

kortik, thanks for the info on your rifles.

I'm sure the wood splinters on the donor rifle were an attempt to pack the handguard so that it wouldn't warp/split and was tight when clamped. With the barrel band in place but without out the nosecap screwed down the handguard rested at about 2-3mm above the barrel.

I also forgot to mention that the smaller splinters were laid in the bottom part of the nosecap.

We could fabricate a barrel sleeve along the lines of the M28/30 - would be a fair bit of work - but also thinking about bedding the area as a more cost-effective solution
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

Kortik,

Interesting thoughts on the effect of the bayonet on harmonics and how they may have tried to incorporate that into the design. It certainly makes sense, but I haven't tested it. The only M39 bayo I have is a repro and it's an extremely tight fit.

Basra Boy,

Is there any space between the stock and barrel on the bottom? Or, does it appear to be floating? If it's floating, I would just start there before messing with any bedding, shimming, etc. It's a great baseline to start with.

John
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

Joop

No, no space - not even without the nosecap. The splinters there were pressed flat. here's another pic of what we found. The really thin pieces were under the barrel.

123.jpg


The wood seems to have a clear pressure mark where it has been up against the barrel. Would post a pic but the rifle is with Paul now and I won't get it back until after the build.

But I am keeping him updated on all the feedback so as we can work out how to go on this (we're both M39 virgins!).

He's planning to shoot the rifle "as is" on 17th/18th Nov as an accuracy test and have asked that he follow your earlier suggestion re: tightening the nosecap, loosening and then removing
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

Just to clarify; is there a shim in the (rear receiver)tang area of the stock? My guess is that the front shim was put there to reduce the pressure of the stock on the barrel at the tip, if not to float it. However, it's hard to say if this is the original stock for this rifle or, even if it is, what the ravages of time have done. I'm very interested to hear how it shoots, as is and if the cap screw has any effect. Most of the ones that I've shot have had tension from the handguard on the barrel, at the nose cap. But, I'm sure that the tension of that screw will play a part in it's current configuration, as well.

Keep us posted!
wink.gif


John
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

Joop, no other shims or packing other than the bedding block pictured. The stock is a post war, square joint replacement.
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kortik,

Interesting thoughts on the effect of the bayonet on harmonics and how they may have tried to incorporate that into the design. It certainly makes sense, but I haven't tested it. The only M39 bayo I have is a repro and it's an extremely tight fit.

John </div></div>

John,

It feels like this bayonet lug formed as a part of the nose cap might have also needed some kind of extra "mechanical" or even "dimensional" support, which was achieved by "clamping" everything onto the barrel, barrel being an actual and natural "foundation" for the said bayonet. Or possibly, as you suggested, "tight" clamping helped to preserve relationship between POA and POI with or without the bayonet. Would be in fact interesting to investigate POI changes. I have no bayonets for my M39s, may be you could do your testing some time in the future...
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

Looking at the M39s reminds me of how beautiful their stocks are, with most being a nice tiger stripe pattern.

Now for the killer: Century used to sell them for 3 for $99 (late 90s?). I bought 3 and spents weeks cleaning the cosmoline out of the stocks. Beautiful rifles, but traded long ago.
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

I have seen a lot of shimmed Finn's and I have one 91/30 imported 1999 by a guy in Michigan who brought in lots of uniforms and field gear. It has a the best 91/30 trigger of all my rifles. I had the base and bolt and I had a spare post war bracket.

ccc71f04.jpg

096fae26.jpg


Lovely rifles.

3c227dd8.jpg
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

Test day today.

Cold but clear and sunny.

Three rounds per target at 100yds, open sights. 185gr 0.311"

As per Joop's suggestion, we started with the handguard in place and fully screwed down:

TargetISfullytightened.jpg


Input into On Target this gives a CTC Max Spread of 01.444 MOA

We loosened off the nosecap screw a quarter turn and got this:

TargetISquarterunscrewed.jpg


1.599 MOA CTC Max Spread

Half unscrewed:

TargetIShalfunscrewed.jpg


1.120 MOA CTC Max Spread

And then removed the wood completely:

TargetISnowood.jpg


Only two shots hit the target....not really worth measuring.

So it looks like this rifle likes a little pressure...half unscrewed.

The rifle shot well and was safe, no problems to report
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

Basra Boy,

Thanks for posting results, interesting...

I bet if you do SMLE style pressure point arrangement at the end of the barrel (5-6 lbs. to lift the barrel and some clearance between barrel and handguard on top), this rifle will really shoot.

Boris
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

Boris - yes, it was an interesting day - maybe a little lacking in scientific method and measuring, but worthwhile.

What struck me the most was the POI shift to the left at 1/4 turn unscrewed and how it shifted back again.
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Boris - yes, it was an interesting day - maybe a little lacking in scientific method and measuring, but worthwhile.

What struck me the most was the POI shift to the left at 1/4 turn unscrewed and how it shifted back again. </div></div>

A little barrel harmonics change?

I've observed on all ocassions that original MN91/30 barrels in unsupported condition, aka free floated, do not shoot consistently. Too long and too thin. M39 barrel is actually appears to be the same profile barrel than MN 91/30, just an inch or so shorter. So, it'll be affected too by changes in forend/handguard pressure onto the barrel.

At the end of the day, I've felt too lazy trying to make MN wood work with full lenght MN barrel and ended up using free floated shortened barrels (19"-22") on alumimum platforms for the receiver on some rifles I've modified for practical use in the field. That did the trick to stabilize POA/POI thingie.
 
Re: Finnish M39-SOV Project begins....

Try a oiled piece of cloth all around the barrel at the cap. If you look into the 91-30 snipers they had the cloth at the barrel and the action was shimmed like the M39. Most all of my Russian rifles like a 5-6 lbs of down pressure. Thats why the bushing in the other posters photo is there.