Finnish TKIV-85, 7.62KIV85, TAK 85 Sniper has begun. pics

buffalowinter

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    I am working on a new project and need data, specifically barrel dimensions, on the Finnish TKIV-85, 7.62KIV85, or TAK 85 Sniper. This is what one looks like:



    Tkiv_85-2.jpg


    There are two versions of the TAK-85. A heavy barreled purely sniper rifle that has no iron sights and a hybrid, lighter barrelled target/sniper that has accommodation for irons...as shown above...you can se the front sight base. Here is the pure sniper model:


    7,62_Tarkkuuskivääri_85_Lippujuhlan_päivä_2013.JPG


    There are also two stock variations, one with and one without an adjustable cheekpiece.



    93f906d4.jpg



    I have managed to acquire the non-adjustable type stock, Valmet match trigger and Torro bedding block. This block attaches to the barrel like a Mod 700 bedding block on the Mk13. Ahead of its time, the entire gun beds off this block


    tak85 2.jpg
    kiv18.jpg


    kiv_3.jpg


    kiv_6.jpg

    I have also purchased an original M28/76 that has the original scope base, mount and scope. This is the only one I have ever seen for sale. The TAK 85 used both a Schmidt and Bender 4x and a Zeiss 1.5-6x Diavari scope. I have both. I am a little torn about using this as a donor gun. I have another M28/76 without the scope that I bought back when they were cheap, but it has some unique features such as special bedding and a match trigger. If the scope isn't numbered to the gun, It becomes just another M28/76, still expensive but I need a Finnish hex action machined for irons and with a scope base which pretty much mandates using a M28/76 donor.




    1568061717805.png
    1568061777803.png



    But, back to my original question, does anyone know the barrel dimensions, particularly length and diameter?
     

    Random Guy

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    I once wanted to build one, but decided the M85 trigger, barrel, stock and scope were too hard to source outside of Finland, so I wish you much luck in your project. I recall the barrel being 25", but need to find that source. If you could ever find the below article, it might answer your questions. There was a guy on eBay in Finland who had some rare M85 parts for sale, and he would know this info.

    finnM85.jpg
     
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    buffalowinter

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    Thanks, a detailed dimensional drawing would be geat, but if all else fails I can get an overall length by scaling the above photos, and the diameter will be driven by the dimensions of the bedding block.
     

    Hetzer

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    This is lifted from aGunboards post by member "ptamony".
    Here is the thread for any additional info:

    This is taken from the Finnish manual not the bore size

    6 1.3. Specifications
    • Single-Shot Rifle
    • Fixed feeder with a capacity of 4 rounds
    • Cartridge: 7.62 x 53R 13g's bullet-D166
    • Proliferation Intermediate 1.65 - 1.85
    • Pipe sizing: Isokaliberi: 7.88 (0 0.4)
    Pienikaliben: 7.59 (0 0.4)
    Barrel length: 700 mm
    Rate of twist: 260 mm / oikua
    Number of grooves: 4 pcs

    I would like to see how yours turns out.
     

    buffalowinter

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    OK, started on the gun. First up was modifying the action. Added large cearkoted round knob, installed valmet trigger which required milling the receiver. Had to move the scope mount back so it doesn't interfere with the bedding block...not as easy as it sounds since the mount is silver soldered and screwed. Had to sweat it off, move mount rearward and drill and tap two new holes and then re-sweat the mount back on. Then had to cut away some of the underside to clear the bolt. Drilled holes in the trigger guard to get at the trigger adjustment screws. Have to remove the cocking knob. Working on that now but am waiting for my 7mmx1 metric tap and die. Had to cut off the knob, install an aluminum insert, and when the tap and die arrive, drill and tap a new hole for the firing pin. Then have to cut the rear of the firing pin and cut new threads to screw into the bolt. Next, it's off to LRI where Chad has agreed to do the barrel.


    DSCN2408.JPG



    DSCN2407.JPG
     

    perttime

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    I once wanted to build one, but decided the M85 trigger, barrel, stock and scope were too hard to source outside of Finland, so I wish you much luck in your project. I recall the barrel being 25", but need to find that source. If you could ever find the below article, it might answer your questions. There was a guy on eBay in Finland who had some rare M85 parts for sale, and he would know this info.

    View attachment 7144757
    That fragment of the article says that 2/3 of the rifles were built with the heavier barrel, and 1/3 was lighter to comply with a 5.5 kg weight rule, with iron sights, for CISM/ISSF Standard Rifle competition. The light version was supplied with a "sniper stock" and a "competition stock".

    Also, it says that the manual safety mechanism was removed from these rifles. It was felt that a safety may be useful on a hunting rifle but is detrimental to firearm safety on a sniper or competition rifle. The main reason, though, was getting a shorter bolt throw.

    Wikipedia puts the total length at 1300mm which sounds like a lot.
    The main Wikipedia image is available as a pretty big version.

    I fired a "sniper version", with the 4x scope in 1991. I don't remember if the stock was adjustable but the rifle wasn't excessively long. A "thumbnail size" group on a marker dot on a postit sticker, at 100 meters seemed like OK accuracy

    edit:
    Photos of the TKIV 85 in sniper configuration invariably show a stock with a raised cheekpiece, like the first two photos of this thread.
     
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    USMCsean

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    I'd be curious on your project. About 10 years ago I had sourced a bunch of information to rebuild one of these. I have the Torro block, stock, base, carrying case, and had hoped to get a trigger. I'd have to dig, but I might be able to find the information which you seek. I have been good friends with the guy who's name is on your pictures. CH
     
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    FlyingFinn

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    Great stuff, brings back memories from '80s. Got bunch of close relatives, standard rifle fashion, we took out to range while in service. If my memory serves, 4-5 inches out to 300m got very happy responses from my trainers.

    We're all looking forward to see the pics!
     

    pmclaine

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    My local shop ended up with some Finn Match guns that looked very similar.

    If they were the same guns I was told by the shop owner that the stocks had a tendency to split at the pistol grip.

    They looked like great guns. The ones I was looking at had target aperture sights.

    I remember the stippling on the stocks looking similar to these.

    Great project.
     

    USMCsean

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    The cocking knob was just not modified by having the grasping feature cut off. There is a special nut that went onto the end of the firing pin and the cocking knob was mill out to accept this special nut.
     

    KAIFS

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    Pair of M28-76 (diopters and w/o scope rail)is as close I have gotten to Finnish target/sniper rig . Super jealous
     
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    buffalowinter

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    Not to put too fine a point on it, the 762 x 54 uses a .311 bullet and the 7.62 x 53 uses our .308 bullet. The Finnish army states the the 7.62x54 can be used in the 7.62 x 53 in "emergencies". My rifle barel is .311.

    However, I have seen info such as this:
    The Finnish commercial ammunition manufacturer Lapua does not make a difference between the 53R and 54R, but produces cartridges that will function in weapons chambered for either one.
    The Russian ammunition maker Barnaul states that Russian cartridges marked 7.62×53 are the same as 7.62×54. From their web site: "Some hunters have been confused because there have been varying marking on the package, case bottom and stamps: 7.62×53: 7.62×53R: 7.62×54: 7.62×54R. This happened because the 53.72 mm case length was rounded off differently in various countries. After Russia became a member of the European Permanent Coordinated Commission, the final name - "7.62×54R" - of the cartridge was accepted. "[4]
    Additionally, Russian ammunition manufacturer LVE (Novosibirsk Cartridge Plant) states, "The cartridges cal.7,62×54R are produced by various producers around the world. Producers mark these cartridges differently, and this leads to confusion among the customers – 7.62х53; 7.62×53R; 7.62х54; 7.62×54R. The confusion is based on difference in rounding out (rounding up or rounding down) the case length (case length of our cartridges is 53.65-0.2 mm). The letter "R" indicates a case rim. After Russia’s joining European Commission (ПМК) a definite name of this cartridge was determined – 7,62×54R. Therefore, you may use cartridges of caliber 7.62х54R freely with your arms [marked as 7.62×53R]."[5]
     

    perttime

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    Differences between 7.62×53mmR (Finland) and 7.62×54mmR (Russia)
    According to official C.I.P. rulings the TDCC sheets the 7.62 × 53 R and 7.62 × 54 R feature differences.[3] C.I.P. rulings are indisputable legally binding for civilian use in C.I.P. member states like Finland and Russia. Only governmental organizations, like military and police forces and other firearms bearing public power agencies, from the C.I.P. member states are legally exempted from having to comply with C.I.P. rulings
    Some dimensional differences between the C.I.P. 7.62 × 53 R and 7.62 × 54 R TDCC sheets:

    Round length (L6): 77.00 mm (54R: 77.16)
    Case length (L3): 53.50 mm (54R: 53.72)
    Rim diameter (R1): 14.40 mm (54R: 14.48)
    Bullet diameter (G1): 7.85 mm (54R: 7.92)

    Finnish Defence Forces issued instructions that when ever possible, personnel issued with a rifle chambered for 7.62×53mmR (effectively the TKIV 85 rifle) should use 7.62×53mmR ammunition only, and that use of 7.62×54mmR is only allowed when 7.62×53mmR is not available.
     

    buffalowinter

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    Yes, custom KP barrel, I went with standard 7.62 x 54R in .311 to avoid confusion. Only adavantage to .308 is the wide variety of bullets available, but Lapua makes match grade .311 so I went with that.
     
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    Random Guy

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    May I ask what length is your barrel and diameter at the muzzle? (In inches). Also is your barrel stainless steel or carbon steel in the white? Just curious....that’s an ambitious project here in the USA, so congrats on your efforts.
     

    buffalowinter

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    You know, I can't recall...I gave the dimensions to LRI and forgot about it. I believe it is fairly long...27 inches. It is stainless steel and I believe around .875 inches srtaight with no taper.
     

    USMCsean

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    I've always wondered what the differences mean in the rings. Here you see yours has a different profile than the ones used on the M85.
     

    buffalowinter

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    The m85 used two different scopes. The Zeiss was a 30mm and so the rings were different.

    Zeissss
    1574188274231.png


    S&B
    1574188298672.png
     
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    USMCsean

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    Those are the same rings for each scope. The profile is what I am referring to.
     

    J0h1F

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    What is the difference between 7.62x54R and 7.62x53R?

    Aside from the obvious difference of 1mm......
    Not to put too fine a point on it, the 762 x 54 uses a .311 bullet and the 7.62 x 53 uses our .308 bullet. The Finnish army states the the 7.62x54 can be used in the 7.62 x 53 in "emergencies". My rifle barel is .311.

    However, I have seen info such as this:
    The Finnish commercial ammunition manufacturer Lapua does not make a difference between the 53R and 54R, but produces cartridges that will function in weapons chambered for either one.
    The Russian ammunition maker Barnaul states that Russian cartridges marked 7.62×53 are the same as 7.62×54. From their web site: "Some hunters have been confused because there have been varying marking on the package, case bottom and stamps: 7.62×53: 7.62×53R: 7.62×54: 7.62×54R. This happened because the 53.72 mm case length was rounded off differently in various countries. After Russia became a member of the European Permanent Coordinated Commission, the final name - "7.62×54R" - of the cartridge was accepted. "[4]
    Additionally, Russian ammunition manufacturer LVE (Novosibirsk Cartridge Plant) states, "The cartridges cal.7,62×54R are produced by various producers around the world. Producers mark these cartridges differently, and this leads to confusion among the customers – 7.62х53; 7.62×53R; 7.62х54; 7.62×54R. The confusion is based on difference in rounding out (rounding up or rounding down) the case length (case length of our cartridges is 53.65-0.2 mm). The letter "R" indicates a case rim. After Russia’s joining European Commission (ПМК) a definite name of this cartridge was determined – 7,62×54R. Therefore, you may use cartridges of caliber 7.62х54R freely with your arms [marked as 7.62×53R]."[5]

    Differences between 7.62×53mmR (Finland) and 7.62×54mmR (Russia)
    According to official C.I.P. rulings the TDCC sheets the 7.62 × 53 R and 7.62 × 54 R feature differences.[3] C.I.P. rulings are indisputable legally binding for civilian use in C.I.P. member states like Finland and Russia. Only governmental organizations, like military and police forces and other firearms bearing public power agencies, from the C.I.P. member states are legally exempted from having to comply with C.I.P. rulings
    Some dimensional differences between the C.I.P. 7.62 × 53 R and 7.62 × 54 R TDCC sheets:

    Round length (L6): 77.00 mm (54R: 77.16)
    Case length (L3): 53.50 mm (54R: 53.72)
    Rim diameter (R1): 14.40 mm (54R: 14.48)
    Bullet diameter (G1): 7.85 mm (54R: 7.92)

    Finnish Defence Forces issued instructions that when ever possible, personnel issued with a rifle chambered for 7.62×53mmR (effectively the TKIV 85 rifle) should use 7.62×53mmR ammunition only, and that use of 7.62×54mmR is only allowed when 7.62×53mmR is not available.

    I don't mean to nitpick, but that isn't quite the whole story.

    The Russian rifles and their bullets are indeed .311 (7.92 mm).
    The Finnish rifles however vary between .3082 and .310, while the commercial (CIP) standard for the 7.62x53R is always .308 , so that the commercial 7.62x53R is always optimally compatible with all 7.62x53R chambered rifles.

    The Finnish rifles are as follows:
    - M91 (Finnish rebarreled) - .3095
    - M91-30 (Finnish rebarreled) - .3095
    - M24 - .3095
    - M27 - .3095
    - M27 RV - .3095
    - M28 - .3082
    - M28-30 - .3082
    - M28-33 (rare sniper variant of M28-30) - .3082
    - M37 (sniper variant of M27) - .3095
    - M39 - .310
    - M39 PH - .310
    - M39 SOV - .310
    - M39-43 - .310
    - M39-44 - .310
    - M28-57 - .3082
    - M28-57 H - .3082
    - M27-66 - .3082
    - M28-76 - .3082
    - TKIV 85 - .310

    Initially .3095 (7.85 mm) was chosen by the Finnish Army as a compromise between the Western and Russian spec bullets - so that both would work adequately. The Civil Guard however, chose the .3082 (7.83 mm) Western spec diameter for their barrels as well as the new 12 g D46 bullet they developed. The D46/D47 became the golden standard, and when the military started standardising their 7.62x53R ammunition, they developed the 13 g .310 (7.87 mm) D166 on the basis of the D46 - but initially as a heavy round for machine guns. The D166 was then chosen for the new M39 too.

    The diameter however doesn't tell everything. If you look at the CIP specifications, the largest actual difference is that the 7.62x53R chamber has a very short junction cone, which is designed for the sleek profiled Western bullets and D46. The Russian 7.62x54R however has a very long junction cone, which allows for heavier profiled bullets. This, once again, is the commercial spec difference.

    The military rifles of the Russian spec have a 18.1 mm junction cone. The Army junction cone spec for the M27 rifles however was 10 mm in 1928 and 1929, and 8.5 mm from 1930 onwards, until the production of the M39 started, which returned to the Russian spec junction cone. The Civil Guard had 17.7 mm junction cone in their 1927 rifles (prototypes?), 9.1 mm in 1928-1930, and 15.0 from 1931 onwards (until the production of M39 replaced the M28-30 production). This is relevant, as the rifles chambered with the short junction cone can't chamber Russian military spec 7.62x54R ammunition or the 7.62x53R D166 ammunition, at least not without considerable violence (which would result in too high chamber pressures, if the bullet is forced too deep into the case). The chambers which are able to take the D166 loaded 53R and the Russian 54R safely are marked with a D stamp on the barrel stem (and the TKIV 85 has the D166 marked on the bedding block).

    The post war precision/marksman/sniper rifles were all chambered in the .3082 M28-30 spec, with the shorter junction cone. They were to use the D46 loaded JVA 0246 ammo, which was considered precision ammunition. The only exception to this is indeed the TKIV 85, which was chambered in the .310 M39 spec, with the long junction cone for the D166 loaded JVA 0221 ammo (which was the standard issue rifle round for all 7.62x53R/54R rifles, automatic rifles and machine guns, except the Civil Guard spec rifles and unmodified M27). This was done because FDF had a huge stock of the D166 loaded ammo stored, even though it was ballistically completely suboptimal choice. The D46 already would have been much better.

    So, the real deal TKIV 85 is fully compatible indeed with both Finnish and Russian ammo, thanks to the .310 barrel and long junction cone. Unlike the older post-war precision rifles (like the M28-76 you bought), which are designed on the .3082 barrel and short junction cone as in the Civil Guard rifles. Of course the Russian ammunition isn't as high quality as the JVA 0221.

    As a final note, I think a .311 barrel and 7.62x54R chamber is more correct for a clone TKIV 85, as it's closer to that than the Civil Guard/commercial spec 7.62x53R. A .310 barrel with a 7.62x54R chamber would be the most correct option, but quality .310 barrels aren't that common.

    This isn't yet nowhere near complete writeup of the subject, but you should get the main points.

    --

    When it comes to the commercial (CIP) spec 7.62x53R and 7.62x54R, 53R uses .308 barrels and a short junction cone for the standard .308 bullets - to which you can't chamber proper 7.62x54R rounds (.311 diameter and profiled for the long junction cone). This however isn't the case with most of the Finnish military rifles (except the Civil Guard rifles), as the military spec 53R is actually in the grey area between the commercial/Civil Guard 53R spec and the Russian 54R spec, and allows for the use of the 54R too.
     
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    USMCsean

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    Some 28/76s were made from M39s and will have the larger bore diameter. The ones made from 28/30s were the ones with the tighter bore as you described. When the first came out, there were people who didn’t know and then there were people who wanted one over the other. Hand loaders wanted the ones made from 28/30s because of choosing their .308 bullets. Others wanted the larger bores to shoot surplus since they didn’t reload.
     
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    tomme boy

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    I have both D46 and D166 from the late 30's to early 40's. Both are 0.310" So someone has the wrong info. They came on chrome or nickle plated stripper clips. Both made at the VKT plants.
     

    J0h1F

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    I have both D46 and D166 from the late 30's to early 40's. Both are 0.310" So someone has the wrong info. They came on chrome or nickle plated stripper clips. Both made at the VKT plants.
    The D46/D47 were manufactured in both .308 and .310. The current D46 Lapua makes is the .308 and D166 .310.
     

    perttime

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    Current offering

    D46:


    D166:
     

    tomme boy

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    The ones I have are a regular spitzer type bullet. Same exact profile as the 166 bullet but the back half is cut off. It should be the light ball.
     

    perttime

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    TAK 83 could be a typo. Tarkkuuskivääri 85 has occasionally been abbreviated as TAK 85 - which seems to be incorrect.
     

    perttime

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    Oh....
    Caption also says: tubular housing for cleaning equipment at the front, and a different attachment for the bipod, compared with the later standard model.