I have my build almost 90% done and will be coming back from getting coated shortly. I haven't spared any expense yet in getting what I want, but I'm just curious if buying a Tubbs Speedlock firing pin assembly would be a mod worth doing? I understand the claims they put out about the performance benefits of having one, but does it really make a difference worth doing?
Gunsmithing Firing pin help with decision. Chime in!
- Thread starter xXlojackXx
- Start date
Re: Firing pin help with decision. Chime in!
I installed one in my FN SPR (Win70), because I could <span style="font-style: italic">tell</span> its locktime was slower than a Savage or Rem700.
The OEM pin, plus 1/2 the weight of the OEM spring weighed 900 grains.
The Tubb pin plus 1/2 the weight of the tubb spring weighed ~450gr.
Sure seems to me like the pin snaps faste with the tubb parts.
I installed one in my FN SPR (Win70), because I could <span style="font-style: italic">tell</span> its locktime was slower than a Savage or Rem700.
The OEM pin, plus 1/2 the weight of the OEM spring weighed 900 grains.
The Tubb pin plus 1/2 the weight of the tubb spring weighed ~450gr.
Sure seems to me like the pin snaps faste with the tubb parts.
Re: Firing pin help with decision. Chime in!
No. The composite stuff breaks too often. If you have Tubbs spares, that is fine. If you are in the boonies or in a critical situation...keep with steel. JMHO
No. The composite stuff breaks too often. If you have Tubbs spares, that is fine. If you are in the boonies or in a critical situation...keep with steel. JMHO
Re: Firing pin help with decision. Chime in!
^^^ that's what I was thinking. Plus I don't hear of many people upgrading them so I wondered if anybody noticed significant gains with one.
^^^ that's what I was thinking. Plus I don't hear of many people upgrading them so I wondered if anybody noticed significant gains with one.
Re: Firing pin help with decision. Chime in!
I installed one in my 700SA. HUGE DIFFERENCE going from a standard pin to one with 125% spring and half the weight. The feel of the pin contacting a snap cap is impressive. Even better live. 1600 rounds and 5000+ dry fires later it remains consistent. I strongly recommend a Tubbs system.
I installed one in my 700SA. HUGE DIFFERENCE going from a standard pin to one with 125% spring and half the weight. The feel of the pin contacting a snap cap is impressive. Even better live. 1600 rounds and 5000+ dry fires later it remains consistent. I strongly recommend a Tubbs system.
Re: Firing pin help with decision. Chime in!
It makes sense how the pin releasing faster decreases time for human error, and for about $100 I don;t think it would hurt to install one in my rifle. I'll post my observations afterwards.
It makes sense how the pin releasing faster decreases time for human error, and for about $100 I don;t think it would hurt to install one in my rifle. I'll post my observations afterwards.
Re: Firing pin help with decision. Chime in!
Tubb is a Multiple National High Power Champion, and his products are well geared toward the across-the-course shooter, where Offhand is a crucial part of the challenge. In such applications where unsteady positions are the norm, a faster lock time has real potential to improve scores.
Shooting from more stable positions, or from support, removes much of the need for, and therefore benefit from, lock time improvement.
There is also some question about durability/reliability since the replacement material can exhibit brittleness and fail without warning, disabling the firearm.
I don't compete in the those arenas, and could seldom benefit from this sort of improvement.
I think it's a good product that does what it claims. I wish my skills could justify such a modification.
Greg
Tubb is a Multiple National High Power Champion, and his products are well geared toward the across-the-course shooter, where Offhand is a crucial part of the challenge. In such applications where unsteady positions are the norm, a faster lock time has real potential to improve scores.
Shooting from more stable positions, or from support, removes much of the need for, and therefore benefit from, lock time improvement.
There is also some question about durability/reliability since the replacement material can exhibit brittleness and fail without warning, disabling the firearm.
I don't compete in the those arenas, and could seldom benefit from this sort of improvement.
I think it's a good product that does what it claims. I wish my skills could justify such a modification.
Greg
Re: Firing pin help with decision. Chime in!
George Foreman: countertop grill
Vince Offer: sham wow
David Tubb: speed lock system
Hatchers notebook has been around the better part of a century. It was true then and its true today. Read it if it suits you.
The question becomes kinetic energy delivery vs acceleration/speed. As with so many things, you can have one or the other, but rarely both.
There's a reason why NO custom action manufacturers offer a striker assembly resembling this stuff.
As for lock time, I've had the privilege of working with some of the world's top competitive position shooters from a variety of disciplines. I've yet to hear any of them have banter sessions about lock time. Not once in 20 years.
I DO hear them talk about things like "grass drills, practice, practice, and more practice" though.
Look at a service rifle. Swinging hammers are the worst. I mean lock time suffers AND you have swinging inertia to disturb the sights, yada yada . . .
There's been a whole lot of 198s-200's/200, 200yd slow fires shot with AR's and 14's. Whole lot of dead terrorists too.
Just sayin. . .
C.
George Foreman: countertop grill
Vince Offer: sham wow
David Tubb: speed lock system
Hatchers notebook has been around the better part of a century. It was true then and its true today. Read it if it suits you.
The question becomes kinetic energy delivery vs acceleration/speed. As with so many things, you can have one or the other, but rarely both.
There's a reason why NO custom action manufacturers offer a striker assembly resembling this stuff.
As for lock time, I've had the privilege of working with some of the world's top competitive position shooters from a variety of disciplines. I've yet to hear any of them have banter sessions about lock time. Not once in 20 years.
I DO hear them talk about things like "grass drills, practice, practice, and more practice" though.
Look at a service rifle. Swinging hammers are the worst. I mean lock time suffers AND you have swinging inertia to disturb the sights, yada yada . . .
There's been a whole lot of 198s-200's/200, 200yd slow fires shot with AR's and 14's. Whole lot of dead terrorists too.
Just sayin. . .
C.
Re: Firing pin help with decision. Chime in!
After 30 plus years of shooting hundreds of rifles...hundreds of thousands of times (live fire and dry) the ONLY time i have ever had a firing pin related issue was due to repeated dry-firing one of the high end two-piece pins like the Tubb (MINE WAS NOT A SSS). It is a solution to a non-existent problem.
After 30 plus years of shooting hundreds of rifles...hundreds of thousands of times (live fire and dry) the ONLY time i have ever had a firing pin related issue was due to repeated dry-firing one of the high end two-piece pins like the Tubb (MINE WAS NOT A SSS). It is a solution to a non-existent problem.
Re: Firing pin help with decision. Chime in!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After 30 plus years of shooting hundreds of rifles...hundreds of thousands of times (live fire and dry) the ONLY time i have ever had a firing pin related issue was due to repeated dry-firing one of the high end two-piece pins like the Tubb. It is a solution to a non-existent problem. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After 30 plus years of shooting hundreds of rifles...hundreds of thousands of times (live fire and dry) the ONLY time i have ever had a firing pin related issue was due to repeated dry-firing one of the high end two-piece pins like the Tubb. It is a solution to a non-existent problem. </div></div>
Re: Firing pin help with decision. Chime in!
I installed one on my 700.
Worth doing... I probably can't notice the fraction of a msec (thousandths of a second) delta, but in no way has it made things worse.
Make a difference... The instant the trigger lets go I get a thump in the shoulder and the crosshairs jump off target. If you don't have a crisp trigger I would fix that first.
For $50 I call it an improvement and in no way do I consider it unreliable. Some folks spend more than that on a fancy bolt knob or cool paint... I also neck turn all my brass even though I can't really quantify a difference on paper. I also like to think all the little things add up to getting acceptable/decent groups, but maybe that is faith-based engineering.
I installed one on my 700.
Worth doing... I probably can't notice the fraction of a msec (thousandths of a second) delta, but in no way has it made things worse.
Make a difference... The instant the trigger lets go I get a thump in the shoulder and the crosshairs jump off target. If you don't have a crisp trigger I would fix that first.
For $50 I call it an improvement and in no way do I consider it unreliable. Some folks spend more than that on a fancy bolt knob or cool paint... I also neck turn all my brass even though I can't really quantify a difference on paper. I also like to think all the little things add up to getting acceptable/decent groups, but maybe that is faith-based engineering.
Re: Firing pin help with decision. Chime in!
Blackheart International Titanium Firing Pin. Cant believe nobody has talked about this one. IMHO its a step up from the aluminium Tubb model...
Blackheart International Titanium Firing Pin. Cant believe nobody has talked about this one. IMHO its a step up from the aluminium Tubb model...
Re: Firing pin help with decision. Chime in!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After 30 plus years of shooting hundreds of rifles...hundreds of thousands of times (live fire and dry) the ONLY time i have ever had a firing pin related issue was due to repeated dry-firing one of the high end two-piece pins like the Tubb. It is a solution to a non-existent problem. </div></div>
Hundreds of thousands of times??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After 30 plus years of shooting hundreds of rifles...hundreds of thousands of times (live fire and dry) the ONLY time i have ever had a firing pin related issue was due to repeated dry-firing one of the high end two-piece pins like the Tubb. It is a solution to a non-existent problem. </div></div>
Hundreds of thousands of times??
Re: Firing pin help with decision. Chime in!
To my knowledge SSS has never had a failure on a 2 piece Rem 700 pin.
Never mind the lock time reduction the increase in inch/ounces of striker energy along with a chrome silicon spring that never needs replacing makes it a no brainer for increased reliability throughout the rifle's life.
These features along with the soon to be introduced radial biasing chrome silicon spring(s)(no more bolt jiggle) should at least be worth a look.
Dtubb
To my knowledge SSS has never had a failure on a 2 piece Rem 700 pin.
Never mind the lock time reduction the increase in inch/ounces of striker energy along with a chrome silicon spring that never needs replacing makes it a no brainer for increased reliability throughout the rifle's life.
These features along with the soon to be introduced radial biasing chrome silicon spring(s)(no more bolt jiggle) should at least be worth a look.
Dtubb
Re: Firing pin help with decision. Chime in!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DTubb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To my knowledge SSS has never had a failure on a 2 piece Rem 700 pin.
Never mind the lock time reduction the increase in inch/ounces of striker energy along with a chrome silicon spring[/B[that never needs replacing makes it a no brainer for increased reliability throughout the rifle's life.
These features along with the soon to be introduced radial biasing chrome silicon spring(s)(no more bolt jiggle) should at least be worth a look.
Dtubb </div></div>
Your lightweight pin pointed out a deficiency in my priming routine.
I never had a light strike until I installed it. Closer inspection revealed I was not FULLY seating my primers.
So I purposefully shallow-seated some primers and got lots of light strikes with the Tubb pin. Then I swapped my OEM pin back in, and not only had zero light strikes, but was able to fire the cartridges the Tubb pin couldn't/wouldn't touch off.
That leads me to believe kinetic energy is not THE key component to reliable ignition. Momentum is also important.
Anyway, the Tubb pin reliability ignites the primers as long as they're fully seated.
And, like I said before, it sure FEELS like it snaps faster than OEM when I dryfire it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DTubb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To my knowledge SSS has never had a failure on a 2 piece Rem 700 pin.
Never mind the lock time reduction the increase in inch/ounces of striker energy along with a chrome silicon spring[/B[that never needs replacing makes it a no brainer for increased reliability throughout the rifle's life.
These features along with the soon to be introduced radial biasing chrome silicon spring(s)(no more bolt jiggle) should at least be worth a look.
Dtubb </div></div>
Your lightweight pin pointed out a deficiency in my priming routine.
I never had a light strike until I installed it. Closer inspection revealed I was not FULLY seating my primers.
So I purposefully shallow-seated some primers and got lots of light strikes with the Tubb pin. Then I swapped my OEM pin back in, and not only had zero light strikes, but was able to fire the cartridges the Tubb pin couldn't/wouldn't touch off.
That leads me to believe kinetic energy is not THE key component to reliable ignition. Momentum is also important.
Anyway, the Tubb pin reliability ignites the primers as long as they're fully seated.
And, like I said before, it sure FEELS like it snaps faster than OEM when I dryfire it.
Re: Firing pin help with decision. Chime in!
If the bolt face firing pin protrusion of both pins are equal the Speedlock will mathematically deliver more inch/ounces of energy onto the primer.
If the bolt face firing pin protrusion of both pins are equal the Speedlock will mathematically deliver more inch/ounces of energy onto the primer.
Re: Firing pin help with decision. Chime in!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DTubb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the bolt face firing pin protrusion of both pins are equal the Speedlock will mathematically deliver more inch/ounces of energy onto the primer.
</div></div>
Both @ .065"
Again, I don't think energy (m*v^2) is the only factor. Momentum (m*v) is also important.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DTubb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the bolt face firing pin protrusion of both pins are equal the Speedlock will mathematically deliver more inch/ounces of energy onto the primer.
</div></div>
Both @ .065"
Again, I don't think energy (m*v^2) is the only factor. Momentum (m*v) is also important.
Re: Firing pin help with decision. Chime in!
Titanium is another option; but, titanium is subject to failure under shock loading from what I read.
Titanium is another option; but, titanium is subject to failure under shock loading from what I read.
Re: Firing pin help with decision. Chime in!
Remington factory pins are normally just shy of .060" of bolt face protrusion while the SSS Speedlock are about .015" longer.
Unless altered I would expect these numbers to be representative.
.015" difference in length would be a significant change in impact energy.
Remington factory pins are normally just shy of .060" of bolt face protrusion while the SSS Speedlock are about .015" longer.
Unless altered I would expect these numbers to be representative.
.015" difference in length would be a significant change in impact energy.
Re: Firing pin help with decision. Chime in!
If I buy a 700 the Tubb or Blackheart kit is usually the first mod I'll put in it.
You can both feel and hear the difference. A stock 700 is at 2.6 milliseconds lock time.
From Otteson's <span style="font-weight: bold">The Bolt Action</span> (1976), p. 256:
"Both striker energy (1/2MV²) and impulse (MV) are functions of the mass and velocity of the firing pin, but with velocity more important in the energy term since it appears to the second power. If a firing pin is lightened, velocity will increase exactly enough to hold the energy term constant. Since impulse is only to the first power of velocity, however, it diminishes. Conversely, if the same impact energy is achieved with a heavier and slower-moving firing pin, a higher impulse effect results.
"It might intuitively seem that impulse improves the detonation effect of the firing-pin blow, and thus for a given impact energy, the slower and heavier type striker blow is more effective. It also apparently follows that the lack of momentum in a light fast firing pin fall requires an increased energy to compensate.
"Both SAAMI and US Army studies on the subject show that exactly the opposite is true. At a given energy level, a light firing pin giving a snappy, low-impulse blow is more effective in detonating the primer than a heavier and slower pin. A <span style="font-style: italic">sharp</span>, high-velocity impact transfers its energy to the primer faster and thus at a higher peak level. The low-velocity impact, with its greater impulse, not only transfers the energy over a longer time period, and so lower peak level, but it allows more cushioning in the energy-transfer process. This was graphically illustrated in extensive development work at Olin Corporation and described in US Patent 3,056,226 of Oct. 2, 1962 (Charles Hubbard and Robert Smith).
"The above explains a more subtle relationship between striker design and lock time. By only increasing mainspring power, and retaining a heavy firing pin, a low-velocity/high impulse ignition results. By decreasing weight, the percussion becomes a high-energy/low impulse type. This allows designing to a somewhat lower energy level, thus making possible a slight lock-time gain.
"Another practical advantage of a light, high-velocity mechanism, is that it allows ignition with a less violent striker blow. Since the jar of the striker blow precedes the bullet to the muzzle, this enhances a rifle's potential accuracy.
"Just how much impact is actually necessary for primer detonation depends also on a number of other variables. Certain standards are available, however, which consider normal manufacturing tolerances and a necessary margin for reliable ignition under varying conditions. Current US Army sensitivity requirements are 48 inch-ounces for small-rifle primers and 64 inch-ounces for large-rifle primers."
If I buy a 700 the Tubb or Blackheart kit is usually the first mod I'll put in it.
You can both feel and hear the difference. A stock 700 is at 2.6 milliseconds lock time.
From Otteson's <span style="font-weight: bold">The Bolt Action</span> (1976), p. 256:
"Both striker energy (1/2MV²) and impulse (MV) are functions of the mass and velocity of the firing pin, but with velocity more important in the energy term since it appears to the second power. If a firing pin is lightened, velocity will increase exactly enough to hold the energy term constant. Since impulse is only to the first power of velocity, however, it diminishes. Conversely, if the same impact energy is achieved with a heavier and slower-moving firing pin, a higher impulse effect results.
"It might intuitively seem that impulse improves the detonation effect of the firing-pin blow, and thus for a given impact energy, the slower and heavier type striker blow is more effective. It also apparently follows that the lack of momentum in a light fast firing pin fall requires an increased energy to compensate.
"Both SAAMI and US Army studies on the subject show that exactly the opposite is true. At a given energy level, a light firing pin giving a snappy, low-impulse blow is more effective in detonating the primer than a heavier and slower pin. A <span style="font-style: italic">sharp</span>, high-velocity impact transfers its energy to the primer faster and thus at a higher peak level. The low-velocity impact, with its greater impulse, not only transfers the energy over a longer time period, and so lower peak level, but it allows more cushioning in the energy-transfer process. This was graphically illustrated in extensive development work at Olin Corporation and described in US Patent 3,056,226 of Oct. 2, 1962 (Charles Hubbard and Robert Smith).
"The above explains a more subtle relationship between striker design and lock time. By only increasing mainspring power, and retaining a heavy firing pin, a low-velocity/high impulse ignition results. By decreasing weight, the percussion becomes a high-energy/low impulse type. This allows designing to a somewhat lower energy level, thus making possible a slight lock-time gain.
"Another practical advantage of a light, high-velocity mechanism, is that it allows ignition with a less violent striker blow. Since the jar of the striker blow precedes the bullet to the muzzle, this enhances a rifle's potential accuracy.
"Just how much impact is actually necessary for primer detonation depends also on a number of other variables. Certain standards are available, however, which consider normal manufacturing tolerances and a necessary margin for reliable ignition under varying conditions. Current US Army sensitivity requirements are 48 inch-ounces for small-rifle primers and 64 inch-ounces for large-rifle primers."
Re: Firing pin help with decision. Chime in!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DTubb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the bolt face firing pin protrusion of both pins are equal the Speedlock will mathematically deliver more inch/ounces of energy onto the primer.
</div></div>
I think some hard numbers such as the difference in mass w/ tubbs vs stock; and the difference in lock time and a little bit of simple math should prove or disprove this statement. All else being equal.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DTubb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the bolt face firing pin protrusion of both pins are equal the Speedlock will mathematically deliver more inch/ounces of energy onto the primer.
</div></div>
I think some hard numbers such as the difference in mass w/ tubbs vs stock; and the difference in lock time and a little bit of simple math should prove or disprove this statement. All else being equal.
Re: Firing pin help with decision. Chime in!
Yeah, I'm not ambitious enough to scan and post all the math.
The patent: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3056226.pdf
Yeah, I'm not ambitious enough to scan and post all the math.
The patent: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3056226.pdf
Re: Firing pin help with decision. Chime in!
Tough article to read if one has ADD!
Good info though. Thanks.
Tough article to read if one has ADD!
