first batch of .308

[jeepguy242]

loaded my first batch of .308 for my rifle, its an lar-8 that consistently shoots 1/2" at 100yds with Federal Gold medal match.

i dont think i have my Lee factory crimp die set up correctly as the rounds i loaded were all over the place.

my question is, how much will overcrimping or inconsistent crimping affect the accuracy, as some of the rounds i loaded werent even on an 8" target.

the last 5 i loaded were almost at my poi from the GMM so it looks as if the more i load, the more consistent they get, i was just wondering as what part of my process to look at next.

 

[vman]

Re: first batch of .308

Mmmmm im not into crimping, so cant help you there.

I would even ask is it really needed but thats up to you.

If you do crimp, then yes it must be consistent every single time. If its not neck tension will be different as will the pressure of that given round.

Different neck tensions and pressures shot to shot will give inconsistent results period.

 

[BCP]

Re: first batch of .308

Unless you're using cannelured bullets I don't see the need for a crimp. Second of all you ought to say what kind of powder, brass, and bullets you are using. If your groups are 8" and match ammo is 1" or less you are doing something horribly wrong re:reloading process.

 

[zack-s]

Re: first batch of .308

I thought crimoing for a semi was a must? Are you using bullets with a cannelure?

 

[thespecialist]

Re: first batch of .308

This is my first post here, but I'll throw my 2 cents in.

Crimp pressure, if not consistent, will effect group size. Sometimes a little, sometimes dramatically. I don't crimp any of my loads whether for a bolt gun or SA and haven't had any issues with set-back from recoil.

I have been watching some tests on another forum of a product that may change that though. It uses the LEE FCD and a specially designed torque wrench to allow you to put a value on your crimp pressure and to keep it consistent round to round. I've seen several different loads go from decent performers to amazing using nothing but varying crimp pressures from group to group.

Out of curiosity, what was the load you were trying?

 

[aquinas]

Re: first batch of .308

No crimp is needed. Crimps kill accuracy to boot.

You need to control neck tension. .002 us usually sufficient. I size mine .003 under bullet diameter on my autoloaders and have never had a problem.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: first batch of .308

Jeepguy, I'm not sure how to say to change your process because you don't say much about it. I would skip the crimp though. Your neck tension should hold your bullet. What load are you running and what is your process? What equipment? The first thought I'd have is are you trimming your cases? If they are different lengths then your crimp is not consistant. What are your velocities looking like?

 

[jeepguy242]

Re: first batch of .308

the brass is from fed GMM, Benchmark powder 40.5gn, using a lee challenger single stage press with lee dies, full length sizing the brass, and trimming all cases with the lee trimmer.

speer 165gn PSP non cannelure bullets

i dont have access to a chrony yet, that is next on the need to get list

the only reason i am crimping is that the bullets can be pushed deeper into the case when they are being cycled from the mag, i tried to cycle a couple and it pushed them in almost .010, i thought about polishing my sizing die down a little to increase neck tension, but it looked easier to use the FCD.

 

[thespecialist]

Re: first batch of .308

That sounds like the sizing die isn't sizing the neck down enough, or your expander ball is a little oversized and it's causing the lack of neck tension.

How did you set your dies up? Did you bottom it out on the shellholder + 1/8 or 1/4 turn or did you set it to bump the shoulder on the casing .002"-.003"?

It may be possible that the die isn't quite down far enough and part of the neck is being left un-sized.

Something else I found with Lee dies in my pistol calibers. The o-rings on the jam nuts can let the dies move a little. I replaced mine with the lock rings Hornady sells and now the dies are rock solid in the press.

 

[The Lawn Ranger]

Re: first batch of .308

1. Always trim to size
2. Full-length size with small base die (auto-loaders)
3. Use robust Primers (me likey Winchester)
3. Powder with 4895 (IMR/Hodgdon)
4. Seat at 2.800" OAL
5. Shoot for accuracy/fun

*No need to crimp

 

[Queequeg]

Re: first batch of .308

Has your rifle ever liked that bullet in a factory loading?
The differences between the Sierra 168 SMK and the Speer 165 PSP are significant. Also, what primer are you using?

Additionally, I have seen new reloaders torquing the hell out of their crimps. If it's this bullet (below), you would need only a very light taper crimp if any at all. I choose not to crimp and have found it to be a very accurate bullet for both my .308s and 30-06.

I have not used Benchmark but see that the max charge with 165 gr. bullets is 42.5 grains. You have some range yet to experiment.

For starters, avoid the crimp altogether for a sample of 10-20 rounds. Also, since you are trimming each time, make sure you're deburring the case mouth. You could be crushing a home made cannelure into the bullet if you are crimping the burr into the side of it.

Stay with it and good luck.

 

[Mudcat-NC]

Re: first batch of .308

First off, dont crimp, but if you do crimp, you need to make sure your brass is all trimmed to the same length or your crimps will be all over the place.

 

[jeepguy242]

Re: first batch of .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thespecialist</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> That sounds like the sizing die isn't sizing the neck down enough, or your expander ball is a little oversized and it's causing the lack of neck tension.

How did you set your dies up? Did you bottom it out on the shellholder + 1/8 or 1/4 turn or did you set it to bump the shoulder on the casing .002"-.003"?

It may be possible that the die isn't quite down far enough and part of the neck is being left un-sized.

Something else I found with Lee dies in my pistol calibers. The o-rings on the jam nuts can let the dies move a little. I replaced mine with the lock rings Hornady sells and now the dies are rock solid in the press. </div></div>

never thought of that, thanks.. i will check. when i originally set it up, i went 1/8 of a turn, maybe i need a smidge more...

 

[jeepguy242]

Re: first batch of .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has your rifle ever liked that bullet in a factory loading?
The differences between the Sierra 168 SMK and the Speer 165 PSP are significant. Also, what primer are you using?

Additionally, I have seen new reloaders torquing the hell out of their crimps. If it's this bullet (below), you would need only a very light taper crimp if any at all. I choose not to crimp and have found it to be a very accurate bullet for both my .308s and 30-06.

I have not used Benchmark but see that the max charge with 165 gr. bullets is 42.5 grains. You have some range yet to experiment.

For starters, avoid the crimp altogether for a sample of 10-20 rounds. Also, since you are trimming each time, make sure you're deburring the case mouth. You could be crushing a home made cannelure into the bullet if you are crimping the burr into the side of it.

Stay with it and good luck.

</div></div>

yes, it shoots ok, but not as good as the match kings. i couldnt get the seirra's localy, and i wanted to run a few, so i got 50 of them from the local gun shop while they were ordering the MK's, using CCI 200 primers (reccomended for gas guns by a friend, he says they are a little harder, less chance of the floating firing pin causing them to go off during chambering)

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: first batch of .308

Confirming Speer 165 grain Spitzer pn: 2034. Try a couple of experiments here. First make a dummy round, do everything normal except no primer or powder. Before you seat the bullet what is the inside diameter of the neck? Finish the dummy and put the point on something solid and push on the case. Does the bullet move when you push on the tip? If it moves your neck is too loose.
If the neck is good, load 5 rounds with out a crimp at 41, 41.5 and 42. Single load them. Put the magazine in so the bolt locks back, put the tip of the bullet in the chamber and push the bolt release. Shoot slow and get good groups. 1 weight per target. I don't crimp for my .308 Garand but the LAR might be different. Load your best group with just enough crimp to hold your bullet. I'm not sure if Benchmark is a good semi auto powder it seems to have slower velocity than I'd expect looking at the load info. I load Reloader 15 for .308.

 

[jeepguy242]

Re: first batch of .308

yes, i can push the bullet in with moderate to strong pressure on the bullet. i think i need to polish the expander in the die down a little to tighten up the neck a little.

as sugessted earlier, i tried screwing in the die a little to see if i was sizing all the way and it started to bell out the case just before the neck (on the fattest part of the case)

 

[jeepguy242]

Re: first batch of .308

oh, i forgot to mention, thanks to all that have replied. this kind of help is jut what i was looking for1!

 

[thespecialist]

Re: first batch of .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeepguy242</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yes, i can push the bullet in with moderate to strong pressure on the bullet. i think i need to polish the expander in the die down a little to tighten up the neck a little.

as sugessted earlier, i tried screwing in the die a little to see if i was sizing all the way and it started to bell out the case just before the neck (on the fattest part of the case) </div></div>

Sounds like it's time for your expander ball to meet some polishing compound

I had to do it to my RCBS neck die. Just chuck the stem lightly in a drill to spin it and check it frequently with your calipers. .001-.002" is probably what you'll end up polishing off to get the neck tension you need.

 

[shoepop]

Re: first batch of .308

I assume your taper crimping not roll crimping?

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: first batch of .308

It sounds like the sizing ball is a little over size. Either polish or call about a new one.

 

[jeepguy242]

Re: first batch of .308

yes, taper...

 

[jeepguy242]

Re: first batch of .308

well, i took all your advice, and i made up a bunch of loads of diferent grains, but unfortunately the rain has stopped me from going to the range today...

here is what i did, turned the sizing die a smidge deeper in the press, and polished the expander with some scotch brite while chucked up in a drill..

this seemed to help, as the bullets are now staving put when i push the point agains my loading bench.

loaded 5 rounds of each

40.0
40.5
41.0
41.5 and 42.0

will post some targets as soon as i get a chanc to shoot these..

STOOPID FREAKIN RAIN!!!!!

 

[thespecialist]

Re: first batch of .308

Glad to hear you got it worked out.

The rain's killing me too. I want to sight in my new scope on my SPS, just not bad enough to drown doing it.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: first batch of .308

Sounds like a good plan. Hopefully the rain will clear out soon. Take you time and shoot good groups. I've shot the 165 PSP in .30-06 factory loads from my Savage. They shoot well, at 200 yards on a rest the Remington round will stay in cigarette packs. At 500 yards with a sling I had a basket ball sized group, I figured out the flimsy stock pulled up against the barrel. That killed my groups more than bullet performance. I have a new stock but have been shooting service rifle too much to play with it.

 

[jeepguy242]

Re: first batch of .308

went to the range yesterday finally, with the sole purpose of checking the second batch of loads for the LAR-8 .308 Manrifle, and here is what i got

target #1 2 loads with crim, last without. 39.4 is winning here as i think i pulled the 3rd shot altho, the 40.4 with no crimp proves promising.

target #2, 5 shots at almost max grains and no crimp, the recoil was strong on these

target#3 39.3 gn, no crimp and 40.0 no crimp this is the area i am going to explore more, the gun seemed to like these

target#4 was factory loads Winchester super x 180 gn, not liking these at all, i was holding on the left diamond, and they went all over the place

it looks as if i got my press figured out, and i am making loads mor accurate than cheap factory loads.

next step, im gonna start with 39.0gn and work up to 40.0gn by .1 and see what looks the best.

thanks to everyone here who helped me figure this one out!