First long range gun; Remington 700 build

[UCChris]

Hi all! I am brand new here. I started shooting at 8 years old and have loved it ever since. Recently, I got into precision shooting. The never-ending quest for 5 shots in one hole at a good distance really gets my adrenaline pumping. Anyway, I love shooting my bolt action .22lr at 300 yards and since I have enough room I want to build a .308 rifle to shoot at really long distances. Here are my thoughts

Remington 700 VTR
Bell & Carlson M40 Medalist Stock
Harris S-BRM 6"-9" Bipod
Timney #510 Trigger Kit
Wyatt's Outdoors Detachable Magazine Kit
Hawke Endurance 30 SF 6-24x50 .308 reticle

That is all I have planned right now. I think this might take some minor smithing. Although I think the trigger kit is drop in and the detachable mag kit should drop into the B&C stock without modification.

I doubt many of you are familiar with that Hawke scope. Here is some more information. Hawke Optics | Hawke Endurance 30 SF 6-24x50 223/308 Marksman

I have one of their scopes with this same reticle (except it only goes to 200 yards) made to a .22lr round. Works like a charm!

Anyway, just looking for thoughts and opinions since I am brand new to this. My goal is to make pie plates easy to hit at 700 yards when I do my part.

 

[UCChris]

Lively bunch here...

Anybody know of a rail and ring system that will put a 30mm tube scope as close to 3" above the bore as possible?

 

[Metal Gear]

I would consider a different scope option. The bullet drop compensator on the scope may be fairly close to on for some loads, but it will very likely not do you any good shooting smaller steel plates at a few hundred yards. Look for a scope with target turrets so you can adjust elevation and windage to your ammo and shooting conditions accordingly. I use a Vortex Viper 6.5-20x50mm on my 308 bolt gun, it is a fairly inexpensive scope and so far I have been pretty impressed with the glass on it and how well the turrets track.

 

[UCChris]

I would consider a different scope option. The bullet drop compensator on the scope may be fairly close to on for some loads, but it will very likely not do you any good shooting smaller steel plates at a few hundred yards. Look for a scope with target turrets so you can adjust elevation and windage to your ammo and shooting conditions accordingly. I use a Vortex Viper 6.5-20x50mm on my 308 bolt gun, it is a fairly inexpensive scope and so far I have been pretty impressed with the glass on it and how well the turrets track.

Thanks for the tips. Not trying to argue, but I have put in the BC, velocity, etc of my preferred load into that companies ballistic calculator and it came out such that each aimpoint was within a couple yards of the intended distance. This is assuming a 3" scope height.

Assuming I really do need a different scope then I will go with the Hawke Varmint 6-24x44 1/2 mil dot calibrated at 10x

Sent from Fiji via carrier pigeon

 

[SinnersNITEMARE]

Hello,

I too am a new member here. I typically don't join groups, forums or anything like this, but thought I'd give it a shot. How far are you exactly trying to shoot with this rifle? 700yds maximum? Will it have a secondary purpose like hunting or scaring the neighbors? I see nothing wrong with the Remington 700 action in .308, but I have heard the triangular barrel of the VTR makes it difficult to be accepted into certain stocks and chassis systems. I'm not positive of that, but my friend who owns one is trying to get rid of it and get one with a circular barrel. Your bipod choice seems on point as well as your trigger selection. What is your total budget for this project and what timeline are you giving yourself to get it done?

I am also like you in the build process. I was undecided as to get the 16.5" (85538) or the 20" AAC-SD (84203) for my build. I got pissed off and ended up buying them both. When I get custody of them in 9 days, now will be put in my new Cadex dual strike chassis.

 

[UCChris]

I want to go as far as I can. I would love to shoot 1500+ yards with it. However, my goal is to be accurate at 700 yards (man-sized torso or, better yet, a pie plate) Also, I would like to be able to hit a groundhog sized animal at 300-400 yards with relative ease. This will be a longe range small game/coyote rifle and secondarily a "tactical" rifle should shit ever hit the fan really hard.

I know the triangle barrel can be troublesome, but I made sure that the stock would fit it. However, now that I've been thinking and researching for a few days, I think I want to go with an SPS Varmint in .308. That way I can get it threaded and put on a muzzle brake, plus it is cheaper than the VTR model.

My budget is $2500 for just the gun + parts. Then $1500 for the gunsmith work (barrel threaded, action trued, recoil lug bedded, trigger/magazine kit installed) I am going to college right now, so I am putting $150 a month away for this project hoping to get it bought and done within two and half years.

Edit: I've been looking at that Vortex Viper scope and I really like it. It looks like the turrets will make it pretty easy to dial up to range instead of using mildots.

 

[29aholic]

You are going to confuse the shit out of yourself with that scope if you are talking about long range tactical competition. Not to mention a couple of yards deviation is a LOT. You'd be money ahead with a quality Mil-Dot scope and a LRF. At extended distances the more variables you can diminish the better.

The rest of it sounds all right.

 

[ncbowhnter]

Vortex has a ballistic computer on their website that you can put in a lot of variables for their different reticles. I would check them out.

 

[Vargmat]

Go for a different scope with a regular type reticle. You will be grateful you did.

 

[Metal Gear]

I am by no means an expert and would not call myself an experienced long range shooter, but I think most on here will agree with me that a scope with trackable target turrets is a must have if you plan on doing any precision long range shooting on small targets past a few hundred yards. My opinion would be to ditch the idea of a BDC type scope for this rifle and what you plan on doing with it. Not saying that the scope you are wanting is a bad one, however I feel that it isn't ideal for your intended use.

 

[UCChris]

Ok, no problem guys. I'm new like I mentioned so all suggestions are welcome! Is there a scope in the $300 range that has trackable turrets and magnificaiton up to 20X?

Also, this is a bit off topic but I want to know if I am doing this right. First off, here is the ballistics chart I made up.

ShootersCalculator.com | Ballistic Trajectory Calculator Scroll down to see the chart.

Now, it says that at 500 yards I have 10.16 MOA drop. Is this 10.16 MOA at 100 yards or at 500 yards? Assuming it means 100 yards MOA and I have a .25MOA per click scope, then I need to turn clockwise 40-41 clicks to hit at 500 yes? Now, assuming I put on a Larue 20MOA rail, how does this change things???

 

[29aholic]

For a decent tactical scope look at the Millet TRS. I have one and I have had good luck with it.

MOA is roughly 1" per 100yds so MOA is 5" at 500yds. Dependant on velocity a 175 smk will drop about 55" from 100 to 500. With 1/4" clicks (to keep it simple) it takes 44 clicks to get to 500.

 

[Metal Gear]

The Vortex Viper I mentioned is $460, and a Millet LRS is $400, both at optics planet with free shipping. Both of these options have trackable target turrets and the magnification you desire. Now, with target turrets you won't have to think so much as how many "clicks". For instance, my Vortex Viper has turrets in MOA with 1/4 inch increments at 100 yards and has marking for 1,2,3,4,5,6 etc MOA on the turrets. So for 500 yards if you need to come up 10 MOA you just adjust your turret to the 10 mark and not count out all the "clicks" it takes for you to get there, then when you are done and want to return back to your 100 yard zero you just take the turret from the 10 MOA back to the 0.

As far as the 20 MOA mount goes, that gives your scope more elevation for those longer range shots. For example, my scope has 65 MOA of internal elevation so roughly 32 to go up. With my added 20 MOA base I now have 42 MOA of elevation to dial up.

 

[Prophet78]

If you haven't already purchased the rifle, do NOT buy the VTR. You'll not like it. Buy the SPS AAC-SD .308. Its cheaper and better. You'll get a good barrel and the 1:10 twist. I had the VTR and now everything that made it a VTR is gathering dust. I ended up wasting between $200 and $300 for the premium stuff and its complete garbage. The VTR will shoot great in the B&C stocks and Timney trigger. They are really really good stocks for the money.

This is also a good buy if you can find it:

Centerfire Rifle - Model 700 SPS Tactical - Remington Centerfire Rifles

I started with the VTR and you can do a search or look in my profile to how my VTR sits today.

-JD-

 

[UCChris]

I will probably go with the Vortex. I like the idea of having those MOA markings.

As far as the base goes, how do I tell what my maximum base size is? Assuming I end up with the same scope, then I will have 32 MOA of adjustment. To shoot out to 1500 yards, I would need a 40 MOA base (~70 MOA to hit 1500). I doubt that I could still zero at 100 with a 40 MOA base.

Edit: Here is my updated list of things needed for the build

Remington 700 SPS Varmint .308
Bell & Carlson M40 Medalist stock
Timney #510 trigger kit
Wyatt's Outdoors detachable magazine kit
Harris S-BRM bipod
Vortex Viper 6.5-20x50
Larue 20MOA rail & QD rings
RAT Worx Big Chubby muzzle break

This comes to roughly $2350 without gunsmithing. I'm hoping that I can get by enough that I will only have to pay a gunsmith to thread the barrel, true the action, and bed the recoil lug.

Oh, and is a 5/8x24 or a 3/4x28 threading better?

 

[Metal Gear]

A 20 MOA base will give you 10 MOA more elevation and a 40 will give you 20 MOA more of elevation, so with my scope and the 20 MOA base I run out of elevation just past 1000 yards, so if I want to attempt further shots I have to use the mil dot reticle for hold over. A 20 or 40 MOA base essentially makes your barrel point up more as your scope is now sitting on a mount that is not flat but rather declining from the butt end to the barrel if that makes sense...

The higher end scopes that are in the thousands of dollars have much more internal elevation than the budget minded ones that we are talking about.

1500 yards would be VERY difficult to shoot accurately with a 308, if you want to shoot that far I would go with a different caliber like a 300 win mag.

 

[UCChris]

I'm fine sticking to 1000 yards or less with .308.

 

[briang7511]

check out the Remington milspec 5r. several places have them, milehigh should. Remington 700 5R - .308 Win - 24" - Mile High Shooting

if not check out the firearms for sale maybe save a few bucks on something already built.

 

[UCChris]

check out the Remington milspec 5r. several places have them, milehigh should. Remington 700 5R - .308 Win - 24" - Mile High Shooting

if not check out the firearms for sale maybe save a few bucks on something already built.

Thanks for the tip, but that gun comes with a polished barrel which I do not want.

Edit: I'm looking at a Seekins 20MOA rail and I'm wondering how to tell whether or not a Remington 700 model is a long action or short action? Also, how do I know whether or not I need #6 or #8 screws?

Yeah, I know. Newb alert!

 

[Qualicum]

Thanks for the tip, but that gun comes with a polished barrel which I do not want.

Edit: I'm looking at a Seekins 20MOA rail and I'm wondering how to tell whether or not a Remington 700 model is a long action or short action? Also, how do I know whether or not I need #6 or #8 screws?

Yeah, I know. Newb alert!

a $5 can of krylon takes the polish right out of it.

 

[Akhunter907]

Confused on your gun smithing line item? I would not spend a dime on anything other than putting a brake on. I guess why would you true a factory action just to screw the factory tube back on?? I'd just buy and shoot. Unless you are recoil sensitive I wouldn't even bother with the brake. Then when funds allow. True and screw a custom maker tube. Bunch of money to just get back to where you started. Barrel that is

All factory rem is going to be a 6, and you are scaring me on the long short comment. Google will tell you the dimensions. But all 308 factory remingtons are going to be on a short action. Unless there is a variant I don't know of. Better to just buy they factory rifle. Change the stock and trigger and shoot it a bit, I'm guessing factory ammo? Back to my buy and shoot comment,

Check the BC stock too. Don't think they wyatt is "drop in" and why in the world would you want a scope 3 inches above your bore?

 

[UCChris]

Confused on your gun smithing line item? I would not spend a dime on anything other than putting a brake on. I guess why would you true a factory action just to screw the factory tube back on?? I'd just buy and shoot. Unless you are recoil sensitive I wouldn't even bother with the brake. Then when funds allow. True and screw a custom maker tube. Bunch of money to just get back to where you started. Barrel that is

All factory rem is going to be a 6, and you are scaring me on the long short comment. Google will tell you the dimensions. But all 308 factory remingtons are going to be on a short action. Unless there is a variant I don't know of. Better to just buy they factory rifle. Change the stock and trigger and shoot it a bit, I'm guessing factory ammo? Back to my buy and shoot comment,

Check the BC stock too. Don't think they wyatt is "drop in" and why in the world would you want a scope 3 inches above your bore?

First off, thank you for your help, even if it was a bit condescending.

After more research I have removed the brake from my list. I don't think I'm recoil sensitive as I don't mind running 50 slugs through my 18" barrel shotgun. However, I've only ever shot a .22lr in a rifle format. So I don't know what .308 feels like. Most people say it is a pretty soft shooter, but I've never heard anyone say that about slugs. So I think I'm good on recoil.

I don't know my questions over long or short action are scaring you? I already said I was new to "big boy" bolt guns. My parents are both anti-gun so what I do know about guns is from my shooting friends, some shooting in a BSA environment, and my own shooting once I was able to purchase my own guns when I turned 18 back in December. I have been shooting since I was 8, but that doesn't mean I know shit.

From what I read, the Wyatt's Outdoors magazine kit drops into all B&C stocks for the Rem 700. I read a post specifically about it dropping into the M40 Medalist. I will see if I can find it again. I've read so much in the last couple days I can barely remember where I found it. But then again, I don't know shit, so maybe it doesn't.

I thought a 3" scope height was ridiculous, since all rifles I've scoped were between 1.5-1.75ish. But like I said, I don't know shit about "big boy" bolt guns.

To the poster two posts back, thanks for the advice, and maybe someday I will be confident enough to spray paint my barrel. But for now, when I'm dropping close to 2K on a precision bolt gun, there's no way I'm spray painting the barrel.

 

[Shoots 700's]

Buy the gun of yor choice, put the best glass on it you can afford and go shoot it. You will/do not need to do anything else. Mif you never shot a big boy gun the how do you know the stock setup will not work for you? Man size torso at 700 yards, not a small target and should not be an issue.

After you wear out the stock barrel you can the talk about true in gain action and all the other stiff listed

 

[milspecnsn]

Check out Snowy Mountain Rifles "Paladin" model.

 

[Infringed711]

Check out Snowy Mountain Rifles "Paladin" model.

Look pretty expensive for what they are

 

[flirtinwithdisaster]

If you get the AAC-SD model sps the barrel is already threaded. Sorry if this is a repost.

 

[XRanger08]

My budget is $2500 for just the gun + parts. Then $1500 for the gunsmith work (barrel threaded, action trued, recoil lug bedded, trigger/magazine kit installed) I am going to college right now, so I am putting $150 a month away for this project hoping to get it bought and done within two and half years.

If this is still the budget you are running with for your build ($4,000) you can definitely crank out a great rifle! You can get a custom TAC30 action from Stiller for $975, Krieger Barrel for $375, Medalist Stock $300, Timney 510 $130 (I would also recommend looking into a Rifle Basix trigger. A Few Timney's have needed some machining off of the sear bars from my experience and are within the same price range.), Bottom metal could run you a high of $326 (Surgeons metal), Harris bi-pod high of $130 (look into an Atlas bi-pod runs about $275 but whole different level then the Harris.) Throw on whatever muzzle brake you fancy figure $200 for a high gives a build of only $2,136. Factor in a high of $400 for gunsmithng everything since you are getting a custom level action you bypass having to True, Lap, blueprint a Remington 700 action and save about $250 for that work. This puts you at about $2,536 of your $4,000 budget. Throw $200 at it for Duracoat, KG coat, Cerakote which ever your research will push you towards. Giving you an estimated build cost of $2,736. Take the remaining $1,264 and invest it into a mid level scope. Again, which ever scope your research will push you towards. I'm sure college will keep you busy it definitely kept me busy so getting out to the range will be trying except for when you will have break for the semester. Just consider doing it right the first. You have a good amount of budget and time to really crank out a Precision Rifle! Just my thoughts on the topic, please don't think I am trying to build your rifle you. I have just been down the path you are on with a Remington 700 SPS AAC-SD. Sold that thing and went full custom build and I am in the process of assembly now and would've like the advice to "Buy once, cry once" as they say. Have a good day and good luck in school!

 

[Gregch44]

I just bought a 700P in .223 that will be built eventually. I bought the P model because it comes in a HS Precision stock, that is full aluminum block bedded, a 40X trigger, and heavy barrel. Silly to buy a top of the line model donor to build a rifle with, but it is a shooter out of the box as is my 5R in .308. Point is that I bought the rifle, put a two thousand dollar scope on it , and can shoot it very respectfully for a season or two, and when I have the funds will build it. Buy a decent model and put a decent scope on it, and go shoot. You will learn what you need/want as you go instead of guessing. Your build will be better for you when you really know what you want. Trigger time will be your friend, and it will not embarrass you while you are figuring it out.

 

[29aholic]

Krylon Camo

Aint a damn thing wrong with and it comes back off pretty easy

 

[shooter28]

As some people have already mentioned, get the SPS-AAC Tactical. It will have the heavier barrel and its already threaded, which will save you some time.

Also, if budget allows, skip on the Wyatts BTM and send the stock to CDI or Badger and have their BTM installed which uses the AICS mags. While Wyatts will pop right in, it uses proprietary mags and some have claimed they are not as reliable as the widely available AICS mags.

 

[nic_bravo_whiskey]

Thanks for the tips. Not trying to argue, but I have put in the BC, velocity, etc of my preferred load into that companies ballistic calculator and it came out such that each aimpoint was within a couple yards of the intended distance. This is assuming a 3" scope height.

Assuming I really do need a different scope then I will go with the Hawke Varmint 6-24x44 1/2 mil dot calibrated at 10x

Sent from Fiji via carrier pigeon

You should listen to the answers to your questions.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

 

[Akhunter907]

To follow-up, you have been given good advice, even if you think my tone was off, was meant to be a little. My comment on the short vs long is more to the research part. Just tons of info on this site and others regarding your very question. I'd start reading up on it.

You have more patience than I would have at your age, and slate this as a 2 year project. Custom actions, barrels, triggers, these are all good things. But you don't even own a centerfire.....look in the used market, new if you want, but up the purchase to now. Get some ammo and start shooting, then you can still save for either a custom build down the road, or use the 700 as your builder. Best teacher will be trigger time.

So, my last 2 cents for your build, any 308 factory 700. used, new. (looks like you could get a new for 600-700) Vortex line of optics, your call with the viper line being a start. Look at sightron too, also very good. While the LaRue mount you list is nice, most likely better served with a standard picatinny 20moa rail, and vortex, tps, ect, rings. A bunch of budget build 700 threads here too, look at what other folks did With good buying sense, and looking around, you could get in under 1000-1200.

 

[UCChris]

Lots of info to digest. I have decided to go with the Vortex as I said earlier. I will start with just the SPS Tactical AAC-SD, Vortex scope, Seekins rail (has recoil lug) and Seekins rings. I know I was told to get a cheaper rail, but I'm really into buy once, cry once. After putting in range time I will then upgrade the stock, get an Atlas bipod, and get the Timney trigger kit; in that order. I want a Bell and Carlson Tactical Medalist Style 5 stock, but I guess I will have to decided after trigger time. After that I will probably get a Badger Ordnance magazine kit and start applying for a Gemtech HVT suppressor.

 

[Infringed711]

Lots of info to digest. I have decided to go with the Vortex as I said earlier. I will start with just the SPS Tactical AAC-SD, Vortex scope, Seekins rail (has recoil lug) and Seekins rings. I know I was told to get a cheaper rail, but I'm really into buy once, cry once. After putting in range time I will then upgrade the stock, get an Atlas bipod, and get the Timney trigger kit; in that order. I want a Bell and Carlson Tactical Medalist Style 5 stock, but I guess I will have to decided after trigger time. After that I will probably get a Badger Ordnance magazine kit and start applying for a Gemtech HVT suppressor.

Sounds like a solid plan, probably the biggest pro of Remington rifles is the ability to upgrade them over time

 

[UCChris]

Yeah, I love modular systems! I'm really, really liking the Tan/Black spiderweb coloring on the Style 5 stock.

 

[mk44666]

Good luck with your build project one word of caution " THIS IS ADDICTING " but ooooh so much fun !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[redneckbmxer24]

My advice, shitcan the VTR and get a 20" AAC-SD model. Less money, no stupid triangle barrel, stock is worth something as a take off, and it's threaded if you want to add a brake or can. I would also shitcan that scope as well as the bottom metal. The scope is a piece of crap and the Wyatt mags leave a lot to be desired. I'd run the factory BDL metal if you just doing some casual shooting and put the money saved towards a better scope. For a solid starter scope with good build quality and the right features I'd recommend the SWFA 3-15.

 

[Infringed711]

My advice, shitcan the VTR and get a 20" AAC-SD model. Less money, no stupid triangle barrel, stock is worth something as a take off, and it's threaded if you want to add a brake or can. I would also shitcan that scope as well as the bottom metal. The scope is a piece of crap and the Wyatt mags leave a lot to be desired. I'd run the factory BDL metal if you just doing some casual shooting and put the money saved towards a better scope. For a solid starter scope with good build quality and the right features I'd recommend the SWFA 3-15.

Read like 4 posts up

 

[UCChris]

My advice, shitcan the VTR and get a 20" AAC-SD model. Less money, no stupid triangle barrel, stock is worth something as a take off, and it's threaded if you want to add a brake or can. I would also shitcan that scope as well as the bottom metal. The scope is a piece of crap and the Wyatt mags leave a lot to be desired. I'd run the factory BDL metal if you just doing some casual shooting and put the money saved towards a better scope. For a solid starter scope with good build quality and the right features I'd recommend the SWFA 3-15.

I have "shitcanned" the gun, scope, and bottom metal. I'm currently leaning towards an AICS system in FDE because it's almost $300 cheaper to do that than to buy the fully adjustable Bell and Carlson tactical stock and the Badger Ordnance DBM kit. I am also getting a Vortex Viper.

Also, before you start throwing your weight around telling me that the Hawke scope is a "piece of crap" would you please tell me the last time you used a Hawke scope? I have multiple Hawke scopes and I think they are all best in their price point in terms of build quality, optical clarity, and value. Now, I have been enlightened that the ballistic reticle is not correct for what I want to do, especially at the distances I want to do it at. So, you are entitled to your opinion of the Hawke scope, but before you go throwing blind derrogatives around, try one. Thanks!

Read like 4 posts up

Yeah, what he said.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I have "shitcanned" the gun, scope, and bottom metal. I'm currently leaning towards an AICS system in FDE because it's almost $300 cheaper to do that than to buy the fully adjustable Bell and Carlson tactical stock and the Badger Ordnance DBM kit. I am also getting a Vortex Viper.

Also, before you start throwing your weight around telling me that the Hawke scope is a "piece of crap" would you please tell me the last time you used a Hawke scope? I have multiple Hawke scopes and I think they are all best in their price point in terms of build quality, optical clarity, and value. Now, I have been enlightened that the ballistic reticle is not correct for what I want to do, especially at the distances I want to do it at. So, you are entitled to your opinion of the Hawke scope, but before you go throwing blind derrogatives around, try one. Thanks!



Yeah, what he said.

"Throwing my weight around"? The only time I do that is when I'm banging my girl. I've had hawke scopes before and have friends who have as well, if you read my posts you will find I don't make armchair assessments of products like many do, my comments are based off of experience and I stand behind what I said. Yours has held up on a 22, that's not saying much. Some of the old stuff made by Hakko wasn't bad but they have gone down hill in recent years.

As for the stock the AI chassis is a much more functional stock than the BC and higher quality. The forend of that particular BC has the ergonomics of a 4x4 post and isn't good for anything but riding bags, a bipod, or some other sort of rest. Forget about shooting offhand, kneeling, or any other sort of field positional shots. The quality of BC also leaves a lot to be desired. I will no longer purchase them after getting a couple with crooked bedding blocks and having the paint flake off the cheekpiece on one for no particular reason and BC denying warranty because I opened up the barrel channel on the other end of the stock. A HS Precision take off for the same price is a much better choice.

Sorry if I'm "throwing my weight around" again but once again that is my personal experience after using the products, not "my buddy at the gun shop says".

 

[UCChris]

Obviously my mistake. I should have checked your profile before assuming you were dissing the scope just because it was a different brand. The guy (Jake) who originally turned me onto Hawke scopes has one on a .22-250, .223, and 30-06. It's true that I've only ever had one on a .22, but he has had no problems either. I shouldn't have gotten so defensive, I apologize.

I'm really leaning towards the AICS system just because I've wanted a rifle with that L96 look ever since I saw one. Plus it's cheaper than a nice stock and nice DBM system. And the stock is higher quality with the full length chassis. IMHO.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Just some more food for though, if you like the AI chassis you can get a AI rifle for not much more than you'll spend on what you're going to get and you'll have the real deal. AE MKI's and MKII's can be had for $1800-2500, they don't pop up super frequently but they do pop up. Armslist is a very good place to find them, you just have to watch out for scammers.

 

[UCChris]

That is where I had my first Hawke. On a Talon SS.

Smart phone post; expect errors