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First Shot Flyers

pl259

Private
Minuteman
Jun 2, 2010
0
0
65
NH, USA
Greetings,
I've been working through a problem with first shot flyers and hoping some of you here can offer a couple more ideas.

It's a Rem700 SPS V in 308, B/C Medalist, Jewell, Weaver T24, EGW Pic mount(Al), Burris Tactical Rings(Al).

I've put about 300rds through it, and after the first couple shots, it settles down to .6/.7MOA with Federal Match.

Originally, the first shot would be about 6min right, 6min up. I've mostly concluded that it was happening after cleaning. Went with dry patching after each session and the first flyer dropped to about 1min right, 1min up. Second shot is about 1min left. After these, its right on, if I do my part.

Most hardware has been tried/changed except mount and rings.

Do I live with it and compensate, or are there some others things that make sense to try?

Thanks,
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

I use windex on a patch, then I run lock-ease after on a patch, let dry, then run patch down barrel. It works for me. Been doing that for 2 years now, learned it from shooting at 600yd matches.
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

Don't clean after your next range trip. Then the next time you go get warmed up with a dry fire session before you actually start shooting.
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: will67</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't clean after your next range trip. Then the next time you go get warmed up with a dry fire session before you actually start shooting. </div></div>


???????????? i don't understand the thought but ?????????

who bedded your rifle? god possibility the recoil lug is not bedded correctly. if stock stock (lol) check the torque on the action bolts, are you shooting hand loads or factory?


 
Re: First Shot Flyers

the bedding could be the issue, check to make sure that your barrel is freefloating and not touching the stock on either the left or right side. Also make sure your scope base and rings are tight.
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

I don't mean any disrespect but it is most likely the shooter. Same thing for professional pitchers, etc. Other factors could be if you clean all the cooper fouling out of your bore between sessions. Your velocity will vary a little with and without copper fouling. The most consistency from cold bore shot is with copper fouling but no powder fouling. Thus, I only clean my bore of powder and not copper. I wait until accuracy decreases to clean the copper fouling, for example after 400-500 rounds but each rifle is a little different.
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

I have the same gun in 223 it seems to always spit the first one to the right as well. I blame it on me somehow torquing the stock. I am going to change out for a B&C soon.
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: excaliber</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use windex on a patch, then I run lock-ease after on a patch, let dry, then run patch down barrel. It works for me. Been doing that for 2 years now, learned it from shooting at 600yd matches. </div></div>
I already use windex when cleaning the Mosin after firing corrosive ammo, so that's an easy thing to try.

Thanks for the great tip. I'll give it a shot.
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: will67</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't clean after your next range trip. Then the next time you go get warmed up with a dry fire session before you actually start shooting.</div></div>

What he said!
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: will67</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't clean after your next range trip. Then the next time you go get warmed up with a dry fire session before you actually start shooting. </div></div>
I hear you. I usually bring an Anschutz 22lr with the R700 308, and switch back and forth. The 22lr forces me to refocus on technique.

Next trip I'll make sure to use the 22lr first and dry fire the 308 a bit. I usually know when I've taken a good shot but the POI is not where it should be.

Thanks,
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cowboy1978</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
who bedded your rifle? god possibility the recoil lug is not bedded correctly. if stock stock (lol) check the torque on the action bolts, are you shooting hand loads or factory?
</div></div>

Not bedded, yet. Full floating. The recoil lug is not bedded either. In fact, the B/C stock has an enlarged slot, so there's space in there. I tried to make sure the lug was all the way back when torqued. I'll add this to the next things to try.

I've been using factory Federal Gold Medal Match, 168gr. It shoots well, but I'm not to the point of tuning the load.
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS8541</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the bedding could be the issue, check to make sure that your barrel is freefloating and not touching the stock on either the left or right side. Also make sure your scope base and rings are tight. </div></div>
Free floating, not bedded, not touching. I had a loose ring problem early on, so I check it often. It's been solid for a while.

Do you know if the dissimilar metals could be an issue? Aluminum rings and mount, on a steel barrel. Both materials have very different COEs.
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vkc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't mean any disrespect but it is most likely the shooter. Same thing for professional pitchers, etc. Other factors could be if you clean all the cooper fouling out of your bore between sessions. Your velocity will vary a little with and without copper fouling. The most consistency from cold bore shot is with copper fouling but no powder fouling. Thus, I only clean my bore of powder and not copper. I wait until accuracy decreases to clean the copper fouling, for example after 400-500 rounds but each rifle is a little different. </div></div>
No disrepect taken. I'm going to try a couple things to rule myself out. I'm not shooting from a sled, just a front rest. So I'm definately in the loop.

I was using a copper solvent after every session. That definately was causing me grief.
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: arrowslinger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have the same gun in 223 it seems to always spit the first one to the right as well. I blame it on me somehow torquing the stock. I am going to change out for a B&C soon. </div></div>
I was getting the flyers with the original stock and the B/C. The B/C free floated the barrel and got rid of the pressure bedding at the end of the old stock. If I factor out the flyers, the new stock cut the groups almost in half from about 1MOA to about .6MOA
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

Bedded my 5R 700 with Devcon this week; it seems to be showing much better performance, though I havent put too many rounds through it yet (~50). Interesting, the factory bed was clearly showing an uneven wear pattern. Pop your receiver out and see if you can see any uneven wear.
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

There is nothing wrong with the first few flyers out of clean barrel. It’s a well known fact for snipers. They either compensate for the first shot (because it always hits 1MOA to the right for example) or before they go to a mission, they clean the rifle and shoot a couple of fooling shot.
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

Stop cleaning it, bed the action, shoot it till accuracy goes away, then run some patches through it, shoot more.
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevin1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is nothing wrong with the first few flyers out of clean barrel. It’s a well known fact for snipers. They either compensate for the first shot (because it always hits 1MOA to the right for example) or before they go to a mission, they clean the rifle and shoot a couple of fooling shot. </div></div>
Umm... Excuse me? Where did you hear that? If it's your rifle that doesn't hit the first time every time, chuck it and get another! Or get it fixed. A real "Sniper's" rifle cannot have him guessing where the first round is going.
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevin1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is nothing wrong with the first few flyers out of clean barrel. It’s a well known fact for snipers. They either compensate for the first shot (because it always hits 1MOA to the right for example) or before they go to a mission, they clean the rifle and shoot a couple of fooling shot. </div></div>
Umm... Excuse me? Where did you hear that? If it's your rifle that doesn't hit the first time every time, chuck it and get another! Or get it fixed. A real "Sniper's" rifle cannot have him guessing where the first round is going. </div></div>

I heard it from SFC Emil Praslick who is the primary coach for the USAMU saying that the clean bore shot will usually have a different POI and that to prevent that, some snipers would prefer to shoot some fouling shots before storing their rifle.
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

I have been having this issue with my 700sps. It's completely stock at the moment. The last 2 range trips I would set up and practice fire 20 times before chambering the first real round and it had fixed my personal "cold bore" shot issue about 90%. So it was allmost all me and not the rifle.
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevin1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevin1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is nothing wrong with the first few flyers out of clean barrel. It’s a well known fact for snipers. They either compensate for the first shot (because it always hits 1MOA to the right for example) or before they go to a mission, they clean the rifle and shoot a couple of fooling shot. </div></div>
Umm... Excuse me? Where did you hear that? If it's your rifle that doesn't hit the first time every time, chuck it and get another! Or get it fixed. A real "Sniper's" rifle cannot have him guessing where the first round is going. </div></div>

I heard it from SFC Emil Praslick who is the primary coach for the USAMU saying that the clean bore shot will usually have a different POI and that to prevent that, some snipers would prefer to shoot some fouling shots before storing their rifle. </div></div>
Well, fair enough. I'll defer to your having heard it from the real expert. I've heard otherwise, but it was quite a few years ago... And for what it's worth, my go-to rifle hits exactly where I aim it first time, every time. Guess I better hang on to that one.
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

You people (well, most of you) clean your rifles way too damn much...

A 5-6 minute shift doesn't sound like a shooter error unless you're extremely inexperienced behind the rifle, or have a massive flinch. My money is on leftover cleaning agent inside the barrel...best solution is to shoot more and clean less.
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jon Lester</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: will67</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't clean after your next range trip. Then the next time you go get warmed up with a dry fire session before you actually start shooting.</div></div>

What he said!</div></div>
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

Cold shooter and clean barrel , don't clean your barrel till you see a drop in accuracy and when you are on the line next time build your position and dry fire before firing your first shot .


Or it may be your rifle ?

The only thing I use windex for is cleaning the bathroom mirror and fitting motorbike tyres .
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arbiter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You people (well, most of you) clean your rifles way too damn much...
</div></div>

amen.
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arbiter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You people (well, most of you) clean your rifles way too damn much...

A 5-6 minute shift doesn't sound like a shooter error unless you're extremely inexperienced behind the rifle, or have a massive flinch. My money is on leftover cleaning agent inside the barrel...best solution is to shoot more and clean less. </div></div>
The 5-6min shift I was dealing with was mostly due to exactly that. I'm now working through a 1min or so shift after a dry patch between sessions. It's a good possibility it's me and not the rifle. I've got a couple things to try next time I go out.

One of the things with the matte finished R700 SPS, is that that finish is a darn rust magnet. Not cleaning the bore is one thing, but if I don't treat all the finished surfaces with Barricade, it's a slow rusty death.
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ecg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arbiter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You people (well, most of you) clean your rifles way too damn much...

A 5-6 minute shift doesn't sound like a shooter error unless you're extremely inexperienced behind the rifle, or have a massive flinch. My money is on leftover cleaning agent inside the barrel...best solution is to shoot more and clean less. </div></div>
The 5-6min shift I was dealing with was mostly due to exactly that. I'm now working through a 1min or so shift after a dry patch between sessions. It's a good possibility it's me and not the rifle. I've got a couple things to try next time I go out.

One of the things with the matte finished R700 SPS, is that that finish is a darn rust magnet. Not cleaning the bore is one thing, but if I don't treat all the finished surfaces with Barricade, it's a slow rusty death.</div></div>

Sounds like a good idea to go ahead and have the rifle Duracoated, or at least give it a good coating of Krylon...
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ecg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cowboy1978</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
who bedded your rifle? god possibility the recoil lug is not bedded correctly. if stock stock (lol) check the torque on the action bolts, are you shooting hand loads or factory?
</div></div>

Not bedded, yet. Full floating. The recoil lug is not bedded either. In fact, the B/C stock has an enlarged slot, so there's space in there. I tried to make sure the lug was all the way back when torqued. I'll add this to the next things to try.

I've been using factory Federal Gold Medal Match, 168gr. It shoots well, but I'm not to the point of tuning the load. </div></div>

i use to have a drift or flyers on 1-2nd shot 3/4 to mil easy, i bedded the recoil it shoots 1/4 mill to the left 1st shot every other right on for the next 15 then opens low right slowly, quick swab between sets it knock the hide off the nats ass

i can only say it might have been slippage in the pillers intill the action heated up a little to lock action in. i checked torque and ordered new action bolts still did it. the bedding of the lug and action. stopped

when using factory loads, get same lot# if not their be variances between lots but nothing of what your talking about, it would be across the whole box


and i hate the word "sniper" and anyone who uses it looses street cred pretty quick. MEN of MEN say nothing where CHILDREN of MEN try to be MEN


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mattlewis</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arbiter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You people (well, most of you) clean your rifles way too damn much...
</div></div>

amen.
</div></div>

????????????




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevin1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevin1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is nothing wrong with the first few flyers out of clean barrel. It’s a well known fact for snipers. They either compensate for the first shot (because it always hits 1MOA to the right for example) or before they go to a mission, they clean the rifle and shoot a couple of fooling shot. </div></div>
Umm... Excuse me? Where did you hear that? If it's your rifle that doesn't hit the first time every time, chuck it and get another! Or get it fixed. A real "Sniper's" rifle cannot have him guessing where the first round is going. </div></div>

I heard it from SFC Emil Praslick who is the primary coach for the USAMU saying that the clean bore shot will usually have a different POI and that to prevent that, some snipers would prefer to shoot some fouling shots before storing their rifle. </div></div>
Well, fair enough. I'll defer to your having heard it from the real expert. I've heard otherwise, but it was quite a few years ago... And for what it's worth, my go-to rifle hits exactly where I aim it first time, every time. Guess I better hang on to that one. </div></div>

lol lol oneshot onekill you funny, you know that most err shall i say all guns shoot better when their dirty, that's what all the winners of any match will say. the military and professionals don't even clean their platforms and they store them in a safe filled with mud.


In retrospect, you should sell the gun and buy a Nemies. thats a real deal so you can have worlds fastest caliber change time. i think all my guns are broke they all shoot 95% right on from shot 1 till clean time???? and i need to get some mud for the safe.
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arbiter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Sounds like a good idea to go ahead and have the rifle Duracoated, or at least give it a good coating of Krylon... </div></div>
That's on the to do list, eventually. The bolt has the same finish, including the lugs.

Do the locking surfaces of the bolt need to be handled differently when recoated?
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cowboy1978</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
i use to have a drift or flyers on 1-2nd shot 3/4 to mil easy, i bedded the recoil it shoots 1/4 mill to the left 1st shot every other right on for the next 15 then opens low right slowly, quick swab between sets it knock the hide off the nats ass

i can only say it might have been slippage in the pillers intill the action heated up a little to lock action in. i checked torque and ordered new action bolts still did it. the bedding of the lug and action. stopped
</div></div>
I plan to bed the recoil lug after I come up to speed on bedding with Devcon. I'll take a look at the pillers while I'm at it.
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cowboy1978</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...and i hate the word "sniper" and anyone who uses it looses street cred pretty quick. MEN of MEN say nothing where CHILDREN of MEN try to be MEN
</div></div>

Huh??? When did I use the word "sniper"?
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ecg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cowboy1978</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...and i hate the word "sniper" and anyone who uses it looses street cred pretty quick. MEN of MEN say nothing where CHILDREN of MEN try to be MEN
</div></div>

Huh??? When did I use the word "sniper"?

</div></div>

You said the word. Now all the non-snipers will come down on you for using a word only designated to describe the elite men skilled in precision shooting, fieldcraft, stealth, recon, and other survival training. You know, the things that nearly EVERY member here tries to mimic? Most of the time, the non-snipers take enough offense to the usage of the word, that the actual snipers could care less. If you want to get into a PC battle, you dont have a sniper rifle, its a precision long gun. You are not a sniper, you are a shooter. You cannot speak to someone who claims they are a sniper and speak about it, because snipers dont exist. Forget you are on the website SNIPERSHIDE.com, I am sure that title is offensive since there are no snipers here.

What it all really boils down to, only 5% of the people on here get boiled up if they see a word used that could be used by other more PC words. Or, you could not care, and be over it quicker than the guys crying about it.
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ecg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cowboy1978</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...and i hate the word "sniper" and anyone who uses it looses street cred pretty quick. MEN of MEN say nothing where CHILDREN of MEN try to be MEN
</div></div>

Huh??? When did I use the word "sniper"?

</div></div>

You said the word. Now all the non-snipers will come down on you for using a word only designated to describe the elite men skilled in precision shooting, fieldcraft, stealth, recon, and other survival training. You know, the things that nearly EVERY member here tries to mimic? Most of the time, the non-snipers take enough offense to the usage of the word, that the actual snipers could care less. If you want to get into a PC battle, you dont have a sniper rifle, its a precision long gun. You are not a sniper, you are a shooter. You cannot speak to someone who claims they are a sniper and speak about it, because snipers dont exist. Forget you are on the website SNIPERSHIDE.com, I am sure that title is offensive since there are no snipers here.

What it all really boils down to, only 5% of the people on here get boiled up if they see a word used that could be used by other more PC words. Or, you could not care, and be over it quicker than the guys crying about it. </div></div>

Thanks for the cultural insight. Good thing I never actually said the S word and only quoted it. Sounds like an interesting discussion for some other time.
 
Re: First Shot Flyers

Update...
Was at the range last WE and shot a lot of different hardware. Saved the 308 for last. First three shot group was just under 1" at 100m. Second group was about 0.6" No flyers.

I'll continue the same pattern, but it looks like I was contributing to the first shot issues.