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Fit and Finish...let's Discuss - BlackOps Recon

JSTARSZ

JSTARSZ

Lefty's Rule
Full Member
Minuteman
    • Feb 6, 2008
    1,991
    198
    Wolftown
    I have seen a lot of discussion on Fit and Finish of Custom rifles lately, mainly the negative versus the positive, so I wanted to show a BlackOps Recon I just received. Mike Bush has always been known for attention to detail on his rifles and this rifle will show that very well. When "we" pay a large sum of money for rifles we expect a certain level of attention to detail on how the rifle looks. Of course ultimately how is shoots is the top priority but how it looks does matter to me. I am in no way a gunsmith nor do I play one on T.V. or stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night. I am just a guy who likes his rifles. And, I am that guy who clings to my guns and religion as a means to guide my life.

    The Tang Area - how does it sit in the stock. Does it look like it grew out of the stock. This one looks like it just grew there




    Bottom Metal - The same thing...does the milling of the stock look like it was milled with a dremel tool and a guy on crack. This one again looks like it grew out of the stock.




    Continued
     
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    Flush Cups...I saw one recently that looked like a kindergartner did it will a hammer and a crank by hand tap kit. Mike sits his flush cups so deep it is really hard to know they are there. When I got my other Recon I actually called Mike to say, hey, did you forget to put the flush cups in the stock. Ok, I am an idiot for not trying a sling but the fact that they were deep enough to think that really says a lot about attention to detail.


    it is useable - YES



    The EFR rail from the top with barrel channel:
     
    I know that was a lot of pictures but I wanted to illustrate to some of the new members what does it mean and what do you look for from a custom gun maker. We pay top dollar for these rifles and we should expect a certain level of attention to detail to the fit and finish of these rifles. For the past couple of years that I have been acquiring my Precision rifles I have worked with Mike Bush, BlackOps Precison, Mark Gordan, Short Action Customs, and Mark Kuczka, Accurate Ordnance...I find all their rifles not only shoot well but also have a high level of fit to their rifles. There are others in the Industry, but as some of you have seen recently, there are some bad ones too...no names mentioned but you know who they are...TR...And, more importantly the three smiths that I speak of have always been there to answer some of my "stupid" questions that I had when I started out looking for my rifles.
     
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    Always nice to see good work but some of it can't be seen in a few of your pictures. Put a lamp next to the gun on the side that you are taking the picture or take them outside when the sun is out. What I could see did look really good.
     
    redirt78 said:
    Always nice to see good work but some of it can't be seen in a few of your pictures. Put a lamp next to the gun on the side that you are taking the picture or take them outside when the sun is out. What I could see did look really good.
    Click to expand...
    Oh yes, I forgot to to mention, that I am not a good photographer either - there are many things I am not. I will take it outside today and get some better pics.
     
    SFree said:
    Beautiful home, Starszy!

    nice rifle too...:p
    Click to expand...
    thanks Scott, thanks. The house at the moment has gotten puppy proofed as can be seen by the piece of wood across the sun room. We had to block off places she can't go until we can trust her.
     
    Nice pictures.

    Seems they are all the same, as the pictures you took could just as easy have been the Recon Mike sent me, other than mine shifts gears on the 'correct' side. Mine all shoot as good as they look.

    Just got the BlackOps 1911 and as usual, the "Fit and Finish" is second to none.

    Are you going to get to try it out today?
     
    "Flush Cups...I saw one recently that looked like a kindergartner did it will a hammer and a crank by hand tap kit. Mike sits his flush cups so deep it is really hard to know they are there. When I got my other Recon I actually called Mike to say, hey, did you forget to put the flush cups in the stock. Ok, I am an idiot for not trying a sling but the fact that they were deep enough to think that really says a lot about attention to detail. "


    How are you betting that nobody has called TR and said "I think you forgot to install the flush cups", unless of course they really did leave them out! Which is sad, but could happen.
     
    Icallem said:
    Nice pictures.

    Seems they are all the same, as the pictures you took could just as easy have been the Recon Mike sent me, other than mine shifts gears on the 'correct' side. Mine all shoot as good as they look.

    Just got the BlackOps 1911 and as usual, the "Fit and Finish" is second to none.

    Are you going to get to try it out today?
    Click to expand...
    It is going to hit the range Sunday afternoon with a Tacops that was recently received from a friend of mine. It will be a TacOps - BlackOps shootathon...it will be lots of fun. I just got the Nightforce 3-15 (MOAR) mounted and bore-sighted so it is ready to go.
     
    JSTARSZ said:
    It is going to hit the range Sunday afternoon with a Tacops that was recently received from a friend of mine. It will be a TacOps - BlackOps shootathon...it will be lots of fun. I just got the Nightforce 3-15 (MOAR) mounted and bore-sighted so it is ready to go.
    Click to expand...

    Sounds like a good way to spend a Sunday afternoon. Remember now, one shot on target and then the other four off the target!
     
    That is a fantastic looking rifle, and the craftsmanship is obvious. But am I the only one who would rather spend money on function than appearance? The reason they cost so much is because they're so damn pretty. When I build a custom, I usually buy an action, send it to get barreled, get it back, send it to the stock guy and get it back. The rest I do myself, because it's just turning screws. It takes a fraction of the time that I hear about on here, and is done by some of the best in the business.

    No paint, and I don't care if the bedding is immaculate as long as it done right. I certainly don't care which way the action screws are pointing or if the finish is starting to come off the screws. Catching a fingernail on the bottom metal or butt plate is not a crime. It's going to get all scratched up anyhow.

    Now don't get me wrong, I would never kick one of those out of my safe. And there's nothing wrong with just having nice stuff for the sake of it. But given all the hoopla around really pristine rifles like this one vs all the TR.net threads (which I wouldn't wish on anyone), I just wanted to point out a third option - very high quality without all the aesthetics. It's cheaper, faster, and shoots just as well. Granted, my experience is with target rifles, not "tactical" rifles, so maybe it's not so easy in that realm. It does seem there is much less "one stop shopping" in the target world.
     
    damoncali said:
    But am I the only one who would rather spend money on function than appearance?
    Click to expand...

    I get what you're saying damon, but the two are not mutually exclusive. With a builder like BlackOps you've got function and appearance.

    Fit and finish is where you see the level of OCD that the gunsmith possesses, and I for one want a gunsmith who's a maniac for detail.
     
    damoncali said:
    That is a fantastic looking rifle, and the craftsmanship is obvious. But am I the only one who would rather spend money on function than appearance? The reason they cost so much is because they're so damn pretty. When I build a custom, I usually buy an action, send it to get barreled, get it back, send it to the stock guy and get it back. The rest I do myself, because it's just turning screws. It takes a fraction of the time that I hear about on here, and is done by some of the best in the business.

    No paint, and I don't care if the bedding is immaculate as long as it done right. I certainly don't care which way the action screws are pointing or if the finish is starting to come off the screws. Catching a fingernail on the bottom metal or butt plate is not a crime. It's going to get all scratched up anyhow.

    Now don't get me wrong, I would never kick one of those out of my safe. And there's nothing wrong with just having nice stuff for the sake of it. But given all the hoopla around really pristine rifles like this one vs all the TR.net threads (which I wouldn't wish on anyone), I just wanted to point out a third option - very high quality without all the aesthetics. It's cheaper, faster, and shoots just as well. Granted, my experience is with target rifles, not "tactical" rifles, so maybe it's not so easy in that realm. It does seem there is much less "one stop shopping" in the target world.
    Click to expand...


    You have opened up some things to think about. I think we all have things that we care more about than others would. Me, I care very little about cars other than getting from point A to point B. I seem to always be riding around in my pickup with a rifle or pistol that is worth twice what the pickup is.

    I ref football and have for several years. One thing I have found is that the players are a direct reflection of the coach. That said, I also think the looks (fit / finish) of a rifle are a direct reflection of the builder. As JSTARSZ said, we all want them to shoot good, while I can't speak for others, the rifles I have from Mike shoot as good as they look. At the same time, I have some builds that I cut corners on and they don't look as good, but shoot really good. I have found that I can't shoot the difference.
     
    Good thread Tim. The attention to detail is obvious with BlackOps rifles. There is a certain level we expect from certain builders and they don't disappoint. I recently received my Tac Ops Delta 51 and was amazed at the level of detail. In the past my rifles were built for one thing, accuracy and they all had it. My smith didn't send them off to be coated, that was up to me and he would not bed it until it came back from coating.
    With my Tac Ops I got both, fit and finish as well as accuracy and function. These guy's build these rifles with function first, after all if it doesn't shoot what good is it. The rest is a bonus, a coating to help protect the rifle.

    I'll see you tomorrow Tim!
     
    damoncali said:
    That is a fantastic looking rifle, and the craftsmanship is obvious. But am I the only one who would rather spend money on function than appearance? The reason they cost so much is because they're so damn pretty. When I build a custom, I usually buy an action, send it to get barreled, get it back, send it to the stock guy and get it back. The rest I do myself, because it's just turning screws. It takes a fraction of the time that I hear about on here, and is done by some of the best in the business.

    No paint, and I don't care if the bedding is immaculate as long as it done right. I certainly don't care which way the action screws are pointing or if the finish is starting to come off the screws. Catching a fingernail on the bottom metal or butt plate is not a crime. It's going to get all scratched up anyhow.

    Now don't get me wrong, I would never kick one of those out of my safe. And there's nothing wrong with just having nice stuff for the sake of it. But given all the hoopla around really pristine rifles like this one vs all the TR.net threads (which I wouldn't wish on anyone), I just wanted to point out a third option - very high quality without all the aesthetics. It's cheaper, faster, and shoots just as well. Granted, my experience is with target rifles, not "tactical" rifles, so maybe it's not so easy in that realm. It does seem there is much less "one stop shopping" in the target world.
    Click to expand...
    damoncali, I totally get your discussion points as I have some rifles that I have not spent that much on but just flat out shoot. All my rifles from BlackOps came from deployment money. As soon I got orders for deployment I would call Mike for a build. As ICALLEM said, we have all kinds of rifles in the safes as I am a "collector" and as other collectors tend to do, we have various levels of tastes and quality. I happened on Mike by a fluke and I am glad I met him and call him a friend. That guy is one kind of "anal" engineer and builds the rifles the way he wants them. As such, I am glad that he does what he does as these rifles to me are pieces of art. Yes, I said art, and that can seem to be contrary to what these rifles do. Mike's rifles are both art and function. But, I have to admit, if they get a ding on them when using it hard, than so be it as in the end of the day it is a tool too. I do get what you are saying. ICALLEM and I always talk about the 1/4 MOA and 3/8 MOA guarantee...I can't consistently shoot 3/8 MOA and in fact when I do get one I save the target. I am a 1/2 MOA or better shooter at various ranges. I do love these rifles and the attention to detail is awesome to look at. I am not that anal and that is why I could never do it for a living. I am a tinker at best.
     
    Last edited:
    I get it, guys. I own a Curta calculator, if that says anything. It's a mechanical calculator (as in cogs and wheels and levers) made in the 60's (I think), that is a pure marvel of engineering. It does less than a freebie calculator you get at a trade show booth today, but it is pure art. The complexity and craftsmanship is simply amazing even though it has no practical function at all to me.

    The CURTA Calculator Page

    To be honest, there's a part of me that says, "Wow. That is how a rifle should look. It's a shame they aren't all like that." But then I think about the time it takes, and time is money as they say. Perhaps that's a commentary on society. Just pointing out that quality and artistry are two separate things (although I've never seen a rifle artist produce something that doesn't work well too - must be something about attention to detail).
     
    A super big fat ass +++ for the examples you'll see from BOP / UGSW floating around. Fit, finish AND function are what it's all about. There's rifles that are utilitarian & all about function and those that are just about being pretty pieces are art then there are the few builders that mix the two into one fine package. Luckily these guys can be found right here on the Hide, we have a small selection to choose from and you won't be disappointed............

    Consistent, from one build to the next.

    IMG_1759.jpg

    olivia_08202012i_zps14363b61.jpg

    DSC_0838_zps5606c4d3.jpg
     
    I could have easily chosen a Short Action Customs rifle as I just got this one in so it was just easier at the moment. The only reason I did this was I have seen some of our members get "short changed" on rifles from unscrupulous gunsmiths so it was a way to show them what they should get.

    I did some outside pics as was suggested:



    Bolt Area:


    Flush Cup:


    Bottom Metal:
     
    Last edited:
    I have had a couple of Mike's (BlackOps) rifles too = very nice!!

    I think you'll see Tim Cronin building some of his own rifles in the future....if so, he'll be building me a couple!!
     
    Last edited:
    JSTARSZ said:
    I could have easily chosen a Short Action Customs rifle as I just got this one in so it was just easier at the moment. The only reason i did this was I have seen some of our members get "short changed" on rifles from scrupulous gunsmiths so it was a way to show them what they should get.
    Click to expand...

    Exactly.

    Before buying my first rifle from Mike I was all set on a TacOps but after a lengthily conversation Mike at TacOps pointed me to Mike Bush at the time UGSW. That was beginning to realizing what money buys when trusting the the right builder. The Infidel was awesome, I reluctantly sold it but had a second rifle built by what turned into Black Ops Precision.

    It's not always true that you get what you pay for but in the tight community of such few builders that go the extra mile it is true with them.

    If the current owner of my old Infidel UGSW s/n 067 decides to sell it please let me know, I'll buy it back in a heartbeat!
     
    This is how things should be done, and this is how they are done by some. Thank you for posting this.
     
    buckey said:
    I have had a couple of Mike's (BlackOps) rifles too = very nice!!

    I think you'll see Tim Cronin building some of his own rifles in the future....if so, he'll be building me a couple!!
    Click to expand...
    I hope Tim does start building rifles. I have three UGSW/BlackOps rifles and they happen to be built by all three builders, Colton, Tim, and Mike...if someone doesn't know the BlackOps builder puts his name on the bottom of the lug.
     
    I know to a lot of you guys the fit and finish seems to be an aesthetic thing. To tell the truth, before the days of composites, bedding an ill fitting wood stock (especially the rear tang) is very prone to splitting. With composite stocks it's not as critical because they for the most part almost never crack. But, the process of super fine fitting a stock is a carry-over from the old days when we didn't use to use resin to fill in the gaps and make a solid fit (bedding). It's an attention to detail thing that enhances accuracy.
     
    Last edited:
    More BlackOps / Underground Skunkworks examples:

    My UGSW 280AI hunting rifle (yes, they also make amazing hunting rigs).
    F129B960-4482-430C-97BC-1AE54B714A74_zpspuyi6kv6.jpg

    7293AF48-4EB6-4B6A-A22E-3209A9099FD1_zpskjwyeupq.jpg


    Another couple UGSW rifles, notice how perfectly the bolt handle nestles into the stock. Like they were grown together.
    7CF202ED-F9B2-4B4F-8F7F-03B381FEF8C3_zpsf3kofvl0.jpg


    Same with the ejection port to stock, seamless.
    0A9B2D3C-490A-4FD1-A8C4-5DAF016159B8_zpsyyzpefov.jpg


    A47DDA02-44CF-447F-9628-909034FAC1B5_zpscvgkiwqo.jpg
     
    TireMan said:
    MTAR, beautiful rifle.
    What loads do you like for 280ai?
    Click to expand...

    Since it's my hunting rifle it only see about 10 rounds a year. So I just use Nosler Custom ammo with 140gr Accubonds.

    It shoots this ammo lights out and I don't need to load for it. So I just purchased 200 rounds and I'll worry about what's next in 20 years or so.
     
    Pictures (or at least mine) don't do the 1911 all that they should.

    2z4g13m.jpg


    16aobwz.jpg


    Fit / Finish is great on this 1911, just like on the rifles.
     
    I took the Recon out yesterday for its maiden voyage. After reading the catastrophic failure thread, I decided to use factory ammo just in case so I had some Federal 168 BTHP Match ammo to shoot. I got the Nightforce 3-15 NSX (MOAR) zeroed with the help of a friend from the hide, T2CH, and was off and running. I shot several groups at 100 yards to get it zeroed and then started shooting at the length of our range which is 460 yards at my steel targets.
    Here is one of the targets that I put in the Impact data book..it was one of several and they all looked pretty much the same:

    I had one off to the left by about a 1/2 MOA - I called it but it seems I always call it but it doesn't stop me from doing it. That Surefire brake was a pleasure to shoot as it gave it a soft touch. I don't know what people felt that were beside me but it was fine for me. I really like the rifle...I do wish it had a bolt on the left side but that is the way it is sometimes.

    Load development - What load development:
    I just love the rifles that it really doesn't matter what you put in the chamber they just flat out shoot. I had some of my 175 Sierra reloads with me that were developed for a 308 AR so I shot those too to see what it did. It shot the same way. I like not having to do any load development.
     
    Last edited:
    JSTARSZ, now just order up a Surefire can and in a short 2 years (the way current things are) you could be using it!
     
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