I had my 7wsm put together on a Defiance action yesterday. The Bolt nose was .675 and .680 taken 90* apart. The smith cut the counterbore at .690. The bolt will not close on the brass because the extractor sticks out of the bore diameter too far when going over the case head and there isn't room inside the counterbore for this to happen. We called Glen at Defiance(he and Lisa are great) and he suggested an extractor with a smaller taper might fix the issue. Is this going to make the extractor weak? Is there any downside to making the counterbore larger? Any other suggestions to get this up and running?
Gunsmithing Fixing this action issue
- Thread starter hill billy
- Start date
Re: Fixing this Defiance Action issue
The counter bore for a Surgeon XL takes a large ID for the extractor to clear. It's just that, clearance. Your receiver is no different. My counter bores have a .705" ID and average .150" deep depending on the bolt nose. I've never had a problem with the Defiance Machine Receivers using the Mini M-16 extractor. This is what comes in my signature receiver; it's made by Defiance Machine.
FWIW, being a Defiance Machine Receiver, has nothing to do with it, they're rock solid and dead nuts on.
The counter bore for a Surgeon XL takes a large ID for the extractor to clear. It's just that, clearance. Your receiver is no different. My counter bores have a .705" ID and average .150" deep depending on the bolt nose. I've never had a problem with the Defiance Machine Receivers using the Mini M-16 extractor. This is what comes in my signature receiver; it's made by Defiance Machine.
FWIW, being a Defiance Machine Receiver, has nothing to do with it, they're rock solid and dead nuts on.
Re: Fixing this Defiance Action issue
are your counterbores still .705" on your magnum builds william? and another question i have is about the diameter of the defiance bolt nose the op has. are they really smaller than a remington bolt or is something going on with his? if the bolt nose is smaller diameter than it is supposed to be and the counterbore was made .010" over that, i can see an extractor that normally wouldn't extend past the bolt nose doing so in this case. i have not worked with a defiance action yet but the smaller bolt nose didn't sound right to me.
are your counterbores still .705" on your magnum builds william? and another question i have is about the diameter of the defiance bolt nose the op has. are they really smaller than a remington bolt or is something going on with his? if the bolt nose is smaller diameter than it is supposed to be and the counterbore was made .010" over that, i can see an extractor that normally wouldn't extend past the bolt nose doing so in this case. i have not worked with a defiance action yet but the smaller bolt nose didn't sound right to me.
Re: Fixing this Defiance Action issue
For clarity, this is in no way a comment on Defiance. Their action is very nice and they are top notch to deal with. I just mention that it is a Defiance to help with any response.
For clarity, this is in no way a comment on Defiance. Their action is very nice and they are top notch to deal with. I just mention that it is a Defiance to help with any response.
Re: Fixing this Defiance Action issue
Yes, .705" on all. Bolt noses are .683", standard & magnum. Mini M-16 extractor on all. Even when I've used the Sako I've done so with out issue. The counter bore on the OPs rifle is too small. Open it to .705" and re-check it.
Yes, .705" on all. Bolt noses are .683", standard & magnum. Mini M-16 extractor on all. Even when I've used the Sako I've done so with out issue. The counter bore on the OPs rifle is too small. Open it to .705" and re-check it.
Re: Fixing this Defiance Action issue
Yes this deffinatly sounds like an issue with the smith not properly fitting the barrel
not an issue with the Defiance action
Yes this deffinatly sounds like an issue with the smith not properly fitting the barrel
not an issue with the Defiance action
Re: Fixing this Defiance Action issue
On magnums using an M16 type extractor or the Badger extractor the counter bore for the bolt nose should be .785 for optimum clearance and function. If not the extractor may contact the barrel when the extractor tries to snap over the case rim. Can it be less? Yes but you want 100% function there is no need for this to be a close fit.
Actually the Remington counter bore is nothing other then a Remington "safety" feature and doesn’t need to even be there to begin with. I've seen Remington builds with the counter bore removed altogether.
On magnums using an M16 type extractor or the Badger extractor the counter bore for the bolt nose should be .785 for optimum clearance and function. If not the extractor may contact the barrel when the extractor tries to snap over the case rim. Can it be less? Yes but you want 100% function there is no need for this to be a close fit.
Actually the Remington counter bore is nothing other then a Remington "safety" feature and doesn’t need to even be there to begin with. I've seen Remington builds with the counter bore removed altogether.
Re: Fixing this Defiance Action issue
Hmmmm... I seem to be fighting this exact same issue with a Surgeon XL action. Would it be safe to say that it would be absolutely impossible for the smith to have test fired the rifle with this problem?
Hmmmm... I seem to be fighting this exact same issue with a Surgeon XL action. Would it be safe to say that it would be absolutely impossible for the smith to have test fired the rifle with this problem?
Re: Fixing this Defiance Action issue
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cinch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmmmm... I seem to be fighting this exact same issue with a Surgeon XL action. Would it be safe to say that it would be absolutely impossible for the smith to have test fired the rifle with this problem? </div></div>
Well if your bolt won't close with a shell in it then i highlu doubyt that the smith fired the weapon.
I have put together two rifels for myself that instead of having the bolt nose counterbore I made the barrel fit with a taper , i did this to see if it would help with feeding short sharp shouldered cases
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cinch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmmmm... I seem to be fighting this exact same issue with a Surgeon XL action. Would it be safe to say that it would be absolutely impossible for the smith to have test fired the rifle with this problem? </div></div>
Well if your bolt won't close with a shell in it then i highlu doubyt that the smith fired the weapon.
I have put together two rifels for myself that instead of having the bolt nose counterbore I made the barrel fit with a taper , i did this to see if it would help with feeding short sharp shouldered cases
Re: Fixing this Defiance Action issue
That's what I thought, just wanted to be sure as I was told it had been test fired. I'm sure that is the issue. If I remove the bolt, stick a case in the bolt head, shove the whole mess back into the rifle, the bolt closes fine. The bolt will not close on a case otherwise.
That's what I thought, just wanted to be sure as I was told it had been test fired. I'm sure that is the issue. If I remove the bolt, stick a case in the bolt head, shove the whole mess back into the rifle, the bolt closes fine. The bolt will not close on a case otherwise.
Re: Fixing this Defiance Action issue
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, .705" on all. Bolt noses are .683", standard & magnum. Mini M-16 extractor on all. Even when I've used the Sako I've done so with out issue. The counter bore on the OPs rifle is too small. Open it to .705" and re-check it. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJones75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes this deffinatly sounds like an issue with the smith not properly fitting the barrel
not an issue with the Defiance action </div></div>
My words here are obviously going to be redundant as these two capable guys have answered the question. My actions are also manufactured by Defiance and there is certainly no issue. Recognizing this, I'll humbly ask that you re-title the post to avoid further confusion and as you stated, Glen and Lisa are responsive and great to deal with. Thanks HB....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, .705" on all. Bolt noses are .683", standard & magnum. Mini M-16 extractor on all. Even when I've used the Sako I've done so with out issue. The counter bore on the OPs rifle is too small. Open it to .705" and re-check it. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJones75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes this deffinatly sounds like an issue with the smith not properly fitting the barrel
not an issue with the Defiance action </div></div>
My words here are obviously going to be redundant as these two capable guys have answered the question. My actions are also manufactured by Defiance and there is certainly no issue. Recognizing this, I'll humbly ask that you re-title the post to avoid further confusion and as you stated, Glen and Lisa are responsive and great to deal with. Thanks HB....
Re: Fixing this Defiance Action issue
Done.
Assuming the new extractor fixes the issue, is there any problem to be created by leaving the counter bore at .690?
Done.
Assuming the new extractor fixes the issue, is there any problem to be created by leaving the counter bore at .690?
Re: Fixing this Defiance Action issue
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hill billy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Done.
Assuming the new extractor fixes the issue, is there any problem to be created by leaving the counter bore at .690? </div></div>
Thanks HB and there won't be any problem at all. I generally don't run my counterbore diameters that large, but I make other accomodations during the machining process that allows for dirt, grit, grime, etc., etc. If you need any help, give me a call....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hill billy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Done.
Assuming the new extractor fixes the issue, is there any problem to be created by leaving the counter bore at .690? </div></div>
Thanks HB and there won't be any problem at all. I generally don't run my counterbore diameters that large, but I make other accomodations during the machining process that allows for dirt, grit, grime, etc., etc. If you need any help, give me a call....
Re: Fixing this Defiance Action issue
Got my new extractor today, works great but have a new issue. The extractor won't release the brass about half the time. If I pull the bolt back slowly, the brass will pop out most of the time but if I pull it back with a little oomph like you would normally in quick cycling, it just holds on to it. Any ideas? I spoke with Glen and he's not sure, I know there are guys in this thread who build on this action regularly.
Got my new extractor today, works great but have a new issue. The extractor won't release the brass about half the time. If I pull the bolt back slowly, the brass will pop out most of the time but if I pull it back with a little oomph like you would normally in quick cycling, it just holds on to it. Any ideas? I spoke with Glen and he's not sure, I know there are guys in this thread who build on this action regularly.
Re: Fixing this Defiance Action issue
You now know why WSM cartridges are a PITA in a Remington type bolt no matter what extractor is used.
The base of the cartridge is smaller then the web or base of the cartridge. When the brass wants to rotate out of the bolt nose the brass will get hung up on the lip of the bolt nose and or the extractor itself. You will need to watch and see what is causing the hang up an a little work with a diamond file should fix the issue.
Or put the old extractor back in and have the bolt nose opened up like it should be.
You now know why WSM cartridges are a PITA in a Remington type bolt no matter what extractor is used.
The base of the cartridge is smaller then the web or base of the cartridge. When the brass wants to rotate out of the bolt nose the brass will get hung up on the lip of the bolt nose and or the extractor itself. You will need to watch and see what is causing the hang up an a little work with a diamond file should fix the issue.
Or put the old extractor back in and have the bolt nose opened up like it should be.
Re: Fixing this Defiance Action issue
In reality, it looks like it's holding up on the top of the ejection port. I'm going to shoot this thing tomorrow and see if it doesn't loosen up and go from there. I broke the edge of the extractor by a good bit and it's better now, but now I am seeing a lot of marks from the chamber on the brass. I had to give up tonight because I am just too frustrated.
In reality, it looks like it's holding up on the top of the ejection port. I'm going to shoot this thing tomorrow and see if it doesn't loosen up and go from there. I broke the edge of the extractor by a good bit and it's better now, but now I am seeing a lot of marks from the chamber on the brass. I had to give up tonight because I am just too frustrated.
Re: Fixing this Defiance Action issue
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hill billy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In reality, it looks like it's holding up on the top of the ejection port. I'm going to shoot this thing tomorrow and see if it doesn't loosen up and go from there. I broke the edge of the extractor by a good bit and it's better now, but now I am seeing a lot of marks from the chamber on the brass. I had to give up tonight because I am just too frustrated. </div></div>
Would the new extractor and mods have changed the angle of ejection?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hill billy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In reality, it looks like it's holding up on the top of the ejection port. I'm going to shoot this thing tomorrow and see if it doesn't loosen up and go from there. I broke the edge of the extractor by a good bit and it's better now, but now I am seeing a lot of marks from the chamber on the brass. I had to give up tonight because I am just too frustrated.
Would the new extractor and mods have changed the angle of ejection?
Re: Fixing this Defiance Action issue
No. It wouldn't pop the brass out with the first extractor either, it just wasn't as apparent because I couldn't chamber anything. I ground the crap out of the lip of the extractor and I'm going to go shoot it in about an hour.
No. It wouldn't pop the brass out with the first extractor either, it just wasn't as apparent because I couldn't chamber anything. I ground the crap out of the lip of the extractor and I'm going to go shoot it in about an hour.
Re: Fixing this action issue
I don't see how making the counterbore larger at this point would help. I'm going to run it today and go from there.
I don't see how making the counterbore larger at this point would help. I'm going to run it today and go from there.
Re: Fixing this Defiance Action issue
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HateCA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On magnums using an M16 type extractor or the Badger extractor the counter bore for the bolt nose should be .785 for optimum clearance and function. If not the extractor may contact the barrel when the extractor tries to snap over the case rim. Can it be less? Yes but you want 100% function there is no need for this to be a close fit.
Actually the Remington counter bore is nothing other then a Remington "safety" feature and doesn’t need to even be there to begin with. I've seen Remington builds with the counter bore removed altogether.
</div></div>
Randy is correct, for a magnum we use .760 with the M-16 Type
we use .785 for the Lapua.
there has to be clearance for the extractor to hinge over the larger rim of the magnums.
308's and Standards dont need the extra room.
Relieve the top hook of the extractor till it edjects. M-16's and Sakos try to throw the brass at a high angle and its probably not clearing the hood. Relieving that top hook will change the angle of edjection.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HateCA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On magnums using an M16 type extractor or the Badger extractor the counter bore for the bolt nose should be .785 for optimum clearance and function. If not the extractor may contact the barrel when the extractor tries to snap over the case rim. Can it be less? Yes but you want 100% function there is no need for this to be a close fit.
Actually the Remington counter bore is nothing other then a Remington "safety" feature and doesn’t need to even be there to begin with. I've seen Remington builds with the counter bore removed altogether.
</div></div>
Randy is correct, for a magnum we use .760 with the M-16 Type
we use .785 for the Lapua.
there has to be clearance for the extractor to hinge over the larger rim of the magnums.
308's and Standards dont need the extra room.
Relieve the top hook of the extractor till it edjects. M-16's and Sakos try to throw the brass at a high angle and its probably not clearing the hood. Relieving that top hook will change the angle of edjection.
