FL Die Bushing vs No-Bushing

[GunnyUSMC]

I started out sizing my cases using a non-bushing FL die. I later learned that a Bushing FL die was better because you could set your neck to the desired tension.

As life rolled on, I moved into the next phase of turning my necks. What I learned next was the a small amount of area near the mouth of the neck would not get turned unless i trimmed off a whole lot more of the case neck than what i am comfortable with (neck thickness is now down to appx .013 on a 6.5 Creedmoor. The reason for this is that the bushing does not size the whole neck like a non-bushing FL die does. Instead, it just sizes appx the last .25" of the neck and the mandrel doesnt really push it back out level with the rest of the neck.

I know there are those who like turning necks and those who think it is a waste of time. I started turning necks because, while my loads are quite accurate (consisently at around .75 MOA), i get the odd flyer that i attribute to inconsistent neck tension. My goal with turning is to even out neck tension so the bullets release in a more consistent manner. Earlier, I took this process one step further by taking 20 Lapua brass that has been fired 6 times and put them through the following steps ... anneal, reamed (using LE Wilson neck reamer), sized them (using a bushing die), ran a mandrel through them and then turned them before finally loading powder and bullets. I was impressed with the result. I shot all 20 at 600yds and the result was a appx .6MOA group, an ES of 22, SD of 6.6 and most importantly NO fliers. For a single group of 20 shots, i was happy with these results.

In talking with some others who are more experienced than myself, they told me that if I want to turn the full neck, i need to go back to a FL sizing die without bushings hence the question.

Just interested in others experiences and what made them decide to user a FL sizing die with bushings or without bushings.

 

[Xcount]

The guys I knew that were crazy enough to turn necks always said to run a non-bushing die the first time, then turn the neck, then use the bushing die after to set the neck tension.
After you turn the neck the portion at the bottom, near the shoulder, doesn't really matter. It will be fireformed to your chamber so it won't move much. There is enough neck surface area above that to grab the bullet.

 

[simonp]

The guys I knew that were crazy enough to turn necks always said to run a non-bushing die the first time, then turn the neck, then use the bushing die after to set the neck tension.
After you turn the neck the portion at the bottom, near the shoulder, doesn't really matter. It will be fireformed to your chamber so it won't move much. There is enough neck surface area above that to grab the bullet.

Crazy enough??? yeah its definitely more of a PITA so I guess some might consider it crazy but unfortunately it works! My mentor suggested it and I was really hoping when he did that there would be little to no difference on the target but there is a noticeable difference so turning continues.

 

[Xcount]

I'm just an old knuckle dragging service rifle shooter. When guys started talking about that stuff for service rifle. I just walked away. I didn't want the crazy to jump onto me.

I made Distinguished without it and I used LC brass right out of the bags of 1000. Made Long Range HM with a Palma rifle taking the brass straight out of the Lapua box. I know nobody cares about that stuff here, I guess it's too easy for everyone nowadays.

 

[RegionRat]

I started out sizing my cases using a non-bushing FL die. I later learned that a Bushing FL die was better because you could set your neck to the desired tension.

As life rolled on, I moved into the next phase of turning my necks. What I learned next was the a small amount of area near the mouth of the neck would not get turned unless i trimmed off a whole lot more of the case neck than what i am comfortable with (neck thickness is now down to appx .013 on a 6.5 Creedmoor. The reason for this is that the bushing does not size the whole neck like a non-bushing FL die does. Instead, it just sizes appx the last .25" of the neck and the mandrel doesnt really push it back out level with the rest of the neck.

I know there are those who like turning necks and those who think it is a waste of time. I started turning necks because, while my loads are quite accurate (consisently at around .75 MOA), i get the odd flyer that i attribute to inconsistent neck tension. My goal with turning is to even out neck tension so the bullets release in a more consistent manner. Earlier, I took this process one step further by taking 20 Lapua brass that has been fired 6 times and put them through the following steps ... anneal, reamed (using LE Wilson neck reamer), sized them (using a bushing die), ran a mandrel through them and then turned them before finally loading powder and bullets. I was impressed with the result. I shot all 20 at 600yds and the result was a appx .6MOA group, an ES of 22, SD of 6.6 and most importantly NO fliers. For a single group of 20 shots, i was happy with these results.

In talking with some others who are more experienced than myself, they told me that if I want to turn the full neck, i need to go back to a FL sizing die without bushings hence the question.

Just interested in others experiences and what made them decide to user a FL sizing die with bushings or without bushings.

A one piece FL size die goes all the way to the neck-shoulder junction and tends to make that junction a little crisper than a Type S bushing die.

You will still need to inspect the results to make sure the neck is all one diameter so that you avoid having that neck-shoulder junction over cut.

You tend to need a full set of mandrels to be able to size the necks up and down in order to have the necks not only straight, but to match your neck turning pilot diameter to avoid having that too tight or too loose. That is, if you use a turning pilot since there are methods like the AUTODOD which do not require a pilot. You will learn to play the game of over sizing and then using the mandrel to open the neck in order to straighten that junction area, but sometimes your FL die and chamber work out so that the brass is straight and the correct diameter without drama.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

I just completed the process of taking the brass for my .223 (use in a bolt gun, not an AR) that i previously turned after resizing using a FL bushing sizing die and first resized it using a non-bushing FL sizing die then pushed the neck back out with a mandrel just enough to rotate freely on the neck turning lathe. As expected, the only area where some brass was removed was at the mouth end of the neck. I then checked wall thickness and also checked for concentricity. The end result was a very consistent neck thickness and virtually no runout. The neck thickness for the .223 brass is now .012. So far, I really like the result. I will be using these in an upcoming F-Class match to see if this effort translates into better groups and scores.

An interesting observation I had was that, as expected, the non-bushing full length sizing die did size the whole neck while the LE Wilson FL sizing die with LE Wilson bushings sizes just the end of the neck and the same die with the SAC bushing also just sized the end of the neck but not as much as the LE Wilson bushing. Here is where it got interesting... the Redding Match FL sizing die with a bushing sized almost the entire length of the neck, not as much as a sizing die without a bushing but a lot more that the LE Wilson and SAC bushings.