Flyers at distance.

[Ziatriguy]

Last night I shot a 5 round group at 100yd and verified my zero was on. Group was about .75", maybe a touch smaller. I then shot groups at 225, 333, 433, and 545. The groups were all very similar at 2-3'. But each had one flyer that was low right of the group by almost 2 moa. The 545 group was 3 rounds in about 1.5" with two rounds as flyers. The barrel (Savage 7mm-08) has quite a few rounds through it.....but I have no clue how many. 1500+ would be a good guess. I know I am the weak link in my system....but I feel like I was breaking good clean shots. What are symptoms of the barrel being shot out.

 

[Kopfjager1]

Theres so many factors that would be hard to blame a flyer on just one, most likely its going to be a few minor errors that just compounded on top of eachother. Axial error, SD has a pretty big play in your vertical spread, powder temperature stability (are some rounds sitting in the sun and some in the shade), wind can also have an effect on vertical spread beside the obvious horizontal deviation, minor variances in POA (for example: holding center on an Echo silhouette versus 10" plate), and then the thing everyone likes to not assume: errors in fundamentals; which a few can go undiagnosed without someone observing you.

As for the bore condition, a bore scope is going to be your best bet at determining how much life it has left, in theory. Strap it in a vise and send a few rounds down range. Does it still headspace? And what amount of accuracy are you happy with? If you are capable of shooting what the gun is actually holding, and youre not happy with the current groups, time for a new barrel.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Dispersion naturally increases the further you go out. A 1 MOA gun, load, shooter combo at 100 yds is not a 1 MOA Combo further out. At distance, all variables start to compound exponentially. To shoot a 1 MOA group at 1000yds, you need about a 1/4 MOA gun and load and a 1/2 MOA shooter calling wind.

Shooting groups at distance in the wind futile at best when trying to determine the accuracy of your platform. Why throw that variable into the equation. You want to group at distance, you need a solid aiming point, a bullet splash or painted circle is your friend.
Here is 10 shots at 1K, top splash was first hit, dialed away from it, 8 shots in the cluster, one lower left barely on target, no clue what happened. Target size 24"x24", with 8" being the head. No wind.

 

[SubOptimal]

This is why I don't shoot groups. At 100 yards, it is easy with even a crap gun to hold 1 MOA. (I really don't like that term either).
I much prefer to put a bunch of 1/2" dots at 100 yards and shoot one shot per dot at a relatively slow pace. 5 shots in 2 minutes is plenty and I will load 4 mags that way. If I hit all 20 dots, I know the gun and myself are shooting pretty well that day. I will try to judge misses to see if there are any trends in my shooting.
I will then move the same target pattern to 200 and try again. I don't always succeed at 200, as wind starts to have an effect, depending on the bullets I happen to be using. I shoot factory match ammo for the most part.
Why dots instead of groups? Simple, it reduces the amount of aiming errors. It is, for me, a PITA to try to hold dead center on a circle, square or triangle. Much easier to concentrate on an edge. For me, with my guns, I tend to miss to the right more often than to the left so I hold at 9 o'clock on the dot with 0.1 mil of right windage cranked in at 100 yards.
You don't need a 1/4 moa gun at 1000. You need a 1/4 moa shooter who can hold consistent POA. Not easy at 1000.

 

[Milo 2.5]

What are symptoms of the barrel being shot out.

At 1500 rds with a 7mm-08, it should not be done, but I'm not familiar with factory barrels. When a scope goes south, or a barrel dies, it's quite apparent, at 545 yards, you'd be lucky to get on the plate, and chasing your misses will be quite an exercise, and it will come to you to maintain same POA, it will not be group shooting, but a pattern, like a 5 yard circle, and getting worse as you fire.

 

[Milo 2.5]

This is why I don't shoot groups. At 100 yards, it is easy with even a crap gun to hold 1 MOA. (I really don't like that term either).
I much prefer to put a bunch of 1/2" dots at 100 yards and shoot one shot per dot at a relatively slow pace. 5 shots in 2 minutes is plenty and I will load 4 mags that way. If I hit all 20 dots, I know the gun and myself are shooting pretty well that day. I will try to judge misses to see if there are any trends in my shooting.
I will then move the same target pattern to 200 and try again. I don't always succeed at 200, as wind starts to have an effect, depending on the bullets I happen to be using. I shoot factory match ammo for the most part.
Why dots instead of groups? Simple, it reduces the amount of aiming errors. It is, for me, a PITA to try to hold dead center on a circle, square or triangle. Much easier to concentrate on an edge. For me, with my guns, I tend to miss to the right more often than to the left so I hold at 9 o'clock on the dot with 0.1 mil of right windage cranked in at 100 yards.
You don't need a 1/4 moa gun at 1000. You need a 1/4 moa shooter who can hold consistent POA. Not easy at 1000.

Not trying to be a douche, but why would anyone care what their gun does at 100 yards? I hear it all the time, other than zeroing a rifle, I see no point.

 

[Ziatriguy]

Thanks for the info. I went out last night...after watching Lowlights prone position videos.....and shot 7" at 600yd. No flyers. No solid indicator of the flyers...but when I tightened up...so did my group. The vertical spread was about 5".

I'll try 800 and 1000 tomorrow if the wind cooperates. I'll practice wind calls mid range if it doesn't.

 

[SubOptimal]

Not trying to be a douche, but why would anyone care what their gun does at 100 yards? I hear it all the time, other than zeroing a rifle, I see no point.

Maybe cause I already have to drive 160 miles round trip to go shoot and 100/200 is all that is available to me? Not to be a douche either, I'm 75 years old, why would I hope to live this long?

 

[Milo 2.5]

Not trying to be a douche, but why would anyone care what their gun does at 100 yards? I hear it all the time, other than zeroing a rifle, I see no point.

Maybe cause I already have to drive 160 miles round trip to go shoot and 100/200 is all that is available to me? Not to be a douche either, I'm 75 years old, why would I hope to live this long?

I do apologize sir, carry on.

 

[SubOptimal]

Milo, no apology needed. As is my prerogative, I do get grumpy sometimes.
I don't get to travel all that much anymore. I shoot when I can and when my health permits it. Somebody is going to get quite a number of fine guns when I finally kick the bucket.

 

[Cdiver0109]

Milo, no apology needed. As is my prerogative, I do get grumpy sometimes.
I don't get to travel all that much anymore. I shoot when I can and when my health permits it. Somebody is going to get quite a number of fine guns when I finally kick the bucket.

I know a prime location for them when that day comes... till then I hope you get the opportunity to burn every last barrel out my man... cheers!

 

[Matches Malone]

Not trying to be a douche, but why would anyone care what their gun does at 100 yards? I hear it all the time, other than zeroing a rifle, I see no point.

Maybe cause I already have to drive 160 miles round trip to go shoot and 100/200 is all that is available to me? Not to be a douche either, I'm 75 years old, why would I hope to live this long?

good way to verify zero. About all I can think of. I've done OCW test at 100y too. But I do my ladder at 300y.

 

[Quickshot]

Theres so many factors that would be hard to blame a flyer on just one, most likely its going to be a few minor errors that just compounded on top of eachother. Axial error, SD has a pretty big play

A different bullet might eliminate flyers. I found one bullet that I believe was sensitive to axial error. The plot below show three shots out of a 10 round string. The Es was 10 and SD was 4.2. But shot 6 was a no see at 2200y. After plotting the down range trajectory from the LabRadar it seems shot 6 was a duck. I went out the next week with three different bullets and repeated the exercise. Again the same bullet had 1 out of 10 disappear when it's down range velocity degraded faster than the others. I shot the suspect bullet in the first and fourth strings and both times one out of ten took a dump.

Cheers,

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I say this on occasion. There are myriad factors governing shooting to a consistent POI, and while they are all significant, most of them aren't especially so.

Except once in awhile.

If you are looking for absolute consistency at extended distances, I tell you "Greetings, Pilgrim, your search is ended. Be happy with what you can get, there is no perfection".

It's like playing Whack-a-Mole because we shoot distances over large intervening air masses, which are in constant motion. In essence, each shot is completed under different conditions. If you can consistently shoot one minute of angle at anything beyond 500yd, you are achieving a minor miracle. At 1000yd, the miracle is not minor.

Greg