Follow orders and kill fellow Americans

rady

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Saw this last night with Stinchfield on Newsmax (one of the few news broadcasts that I can stomach anymore):

https://justthenews.com/government/...aming-outside-gates-kabul-airport-turned-away

There seem to be quite a few that say you follow orders no matter what. I wonder how many of these "officers" in our military have a conscious, especially those that watched at the airport as Americans were at the gate wanting to board waiting planes. I wish that the roles were reversed. How do you live with yourself?

According to reports, at least three planes were waiting and left empty on orders from the state dept,as Americans stood outside the gate. Now we are getting reports that those genius' were actively calling other countries and telling them to refuse private contractor landings of rescued Americans. This per David Barton of the Nazarene Fund that actively funded flights and logistics to get Americans out.

The least these gutless officers could have done is arm these Americans so they would have some kind of chance. Now they are in the hands of terrorists.
 
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diggler1833

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    Who the hell am I? However I've always said that "I was just following orders" does not get you out of what's coming if you violate Constitutional rights while threatening the life, safety, or freedom of citizens.

    Secondly, I used to hammer knowledge and understanding of the Constitution when I was in a position that allowed it during my career. Unfortunately, I'll bet a disability check that 95% of servicemembers can't even tell you how many articles are in the Constitution or how many Amendments we have...let alone give you a remotely accurate account of the freedoms they cover.

    There are still good people in the ranks of the military and police.

    But make no mistake, you are on your own. Think and act accordingly, because only a fool would put their safety and well-being in the hands of a .gov these days.
     

    Bolt_Overide

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    I am of the opinion, and so is EVERY single vet I've spoken to about this mess, that the entirety of the joint cheifs, and every one of their staff that did not register a formal written objection to this crap needs to be court marshalled. Sadly, it's never going to happen.

    So sad to see my former unit forced into such a disgraceful action.
     

    lonegunman762x51

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    While there are many, many service members who would pour their hearts and souls into saving Americans, the top tiers of scum would gladly leave Americans to die. People like General Millie and that turd running the DOD could not give a crap for the lives of Americans. Biden does not give a shit about anyone serving and cares even less about vets. Nearly the entire Democratic party clapped and laughed as 13 of our guys got killed doing their best to sort the Biden shit show out.

    When you ask yourself how could a senior German officer in 1940 follow the orders of his leadership and start rounding up his countrymen for deportation all you have to do is look at General Millie Vanilli. As long as he is in charge, he cares about nothing else. Even now he is back waging war on white supremists.
     

    The D

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    They can do it because 1) they are just following orders 2) they trust their superiors 3) their superiors start small with small, innocent sounding orders. But after a few orders that escalate each time they end up shooting pregnant Jewish women in the back of the head in Siberia and leaving them for the scavengers


    Read it a few times. Give copies to your leo and mil friends and family members. Vet them as uncompassionately as possible. If they are still convinced by their “superiors” that a list of people thrown in front of them are domestic terrorists, there is no hope for them
     

    BCP

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    When you ask yourself how could a senior German officer in 1940 follow the orders of his leadership and start rounding up his countrymen for deportation all you have to do is look at General Millie Vanilli. As long as he is in charge, he cares about nothing else. Even now he is back waging war on white supremists.

    That kinda talk really scares me because those fuckers believe what they are saying.
     

    Oldloser

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    In the 80s, we had General Orders for WWIII about "Duty to Protect." They were constraints around operational planning and types of operations to be performed.

    Raids and Recons By Force are different than Retrogrades, Assaults and Defend in Place. The latter three implied taking and holding ground and then put us under the "duty to protect." This meant we had to exert reasonable efforts to protect the civilian population and not also endanger them. But the mission always came first.

    So, leaving people behind is not a huge no-no. Blocking evac is not a huge no-no. Especially when intact line units are under orders.

    What about contested retrogrades?

    We always expected that the outgoing planes on the air bridge would take US family members first, then US citizens, then high priority non US staff needed back in the US. But at some point the airport would be closed. Runways trenched or pancaked. Equipment destroyed. There were standing checklists.

    And people would be stranded. Gates would be locked and blocked. Last planes would leave with the recon and cav teams the last pull (if they can) to board.

    All this was practiced at multiple levels then practiced all the way down to company/platoon level. We hated it but knew at some point someones' families would be sitting at the gate watching us leave.

    The 82d Airborne did what it was ordered to do per the approved oplan for its mission. They locked down, did its final accountability check, then left.

    When the last planes are inbound, it does not matter who is at the gate. Taking any other steps will endanger the mission and everyone on the last planes out. Every man on the last planes out knows that. It sucks. But thats what it is.

    The fault in this case lies with the civilian leadership at the Pentagon - they set the operational gates and parameters. Not the military. The military followed orders perfectly. As they should.

    As for lawful orders. There is a big difference between leaving people behind and conducting operations on US soil against US civilians.
     
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    Oldloser

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    I am of the opinion, and so is EVERY single vet I've spoken to about this mess, that the entirety of the joint cheifs, and every one of their staff that did not register a formal written objection to this crap needs to be court marshalled. Sadly, it's never going to happen.

    So sad to see my former unit forced into such a disgraceful action.

    Which unit is that?

    We (meaning my former team mates) agree that the last 48 hours went down as it should.

    As for the time before that, it is disgraceful. But someone gave to order to stay on KBL. It was not CENTCOM. It goes all the way to the Whitehouse.

    Most of the active duty and former military are all angry about this.

    We need to focus on Biden and his idiots.

    And avoid friendly fire.
     
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    HeavyAssault

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    I'm sure there's plenty of active duty people that have followed orders to allow their leaders to "fall on their sword". I know I sure did.....it works. The problem is at what level does that stop working.
    As the CIC is giving orders....all below him "are just following orders".....last I heard the music hasn't stopped playing yet.

    It's going to drag out....then .......ASGH as they say here. Enjoy the show.
     
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    Fret

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    The ones waving their passports and screaming "I'm American" at the gate must be the ones that don't want to leave and are not stranded according to Joe Dementia and the lying orange woman.
     
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    BCP

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    The ones waving their passports and screaming "I'm American" at the gate must be the ones that don't want to leave and are not stranded according to Joe Dementia and the lying orange woman.

    The Americans will get out of there eventually, probably riding in some old Tupolev shitbox that will land in Turkey (Taliban wants to get the airbase operational with Turkish help iirc). Afghans who worked for US contractors etc are the ones who might be royally fucked since the Taliban will be looking for them.
     
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    rady

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    In the 80s, we had General Orders for WWIII about "Duty to Protect." They were constraints around operational planning and types of operations to be performed.

    Raids and Recons By Force are different than Retrogrades, Assaults and Defend in Place. The latter three implied taking and holding ground and then put us under the "duty to protect." This meant we had to exert reasonable efforts to protect the civilian population and not also endanger them. But the mission always came first.

    So, leaving people behind is not a huge no-no. Blocking evac is not a huge no-no. Especially when intact line units are under orders.

    What about contested retrogrades?

    We always expected that the outgoing planes on the air bridge would take US family members first, then US citizens, then high priority non US staff needed back in the US. But at some point the airport would be closed. Runways trenched or pancaked. Equipment destroyed. There were standing checklists.

    And people would be stranded. Gates would be locked and blocked. Last planes would leave with the recon and cav teams the last pull (if they can) to board.

    All this was practiced at multiple levels then practiced all the way down to company/platoon level. We hated it but knew at some point someones' families would be sitting at the gate watching us leave.

    The 82d Airborne did what it was ordered to do per the approved oplan for its mission. They locked down, did its final accountability check, then left.

    When the last planes are inbound, it does not matter who is at the gate. Taking any other steps will endanger the mission and everyone on the last planes out. Every man on the last planes out knows that. It sucks. But thats what it is.

    The fault in this case lies with the civilian leadership at the Pentagon - they set the operational gates and parameters. Not the military. The military followed orders perfectly. As they should.

    As for lawful orders. There is a big difference between leaving people behind and conducting operations on US soil against US civilians.

    Which unit is that?

    We (meaning my former team mates) agree that the last 48 hours went down as it should.

    As for the time before that, it is disgraceful. But someone gave to order to stay on KBL. It was not CENTCOM. It goes all the way to the Whitehouse.

    Most of the active duty and former military are all angry about this.

    We need to focus on Biden and his idiots.

    And avoid friendly fire.
    If you're an example of what the military has now degenerated into, no wonder we are fucked. Blame the civilian element of the pentagon and not the military? WTF. Milley and his crew have no culpability in any of this mess, who think that CRT is the most important thing on the plate?

    This, after the intel community told them it was a bad idea to not use Bagram AFB and not wait until August to leave? May was the original planned departure time, Per Trump's plan. Reports of how all of the joint chief assholes were afraid to tell a demented president that his plan was bad, and left at least $85B of military hardware for the enemy?

    For you to say that there is no blood on the hands of the woke military and that they followed the orders perfectly, shows that your brains were sucked out and shit put in. Welcome to the ranks of Hitler's SS, as you have passed the course with flying colors and are willing to follow orders no matter how morally and ethically vacuous they may be.

    I look forward to the day that you are kicking in my door and shooting me in the head because I have a garden in my backyard..............I'm just following orders, Sir. Oh, and don't forget the trophy photo of you and your team showing your handy work. I'm sure mom would be so proud of her little junior.
     
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    Bryan W M

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    Oldloser

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    If you're an example of what the military has now degenerated into, no wonder we are fucked. Blame the civilian element of the pentagon and not the military? WTF. Milley and his crew have no culpability in any of this mess, who think that CRT is the most important thing on the plate?

    This, after the intel community told them it was a bad idea to not use Bagram AFB and not wait until August to leave? May was the original planned departure time, Per Trump's plan. Reports of how all of the joint chief assholes were afraid to tell a demented president that his plan was bad, and left at least $85B of military hardware for the enemy?

    For you to say that there is no blood on the hands of the woke military and that they followed the orders perfectly, shows that your brains were sucked out and shit put in. Welcome to the ranks of Hitler's SS, as you have passed the course with flying colors and are willing to follow orders no matter how morally and ethically vacuous they may be.

    I look forward to the day that you are kicking in my door and shooting me in the head because I have a garden in my backyard..............I'm just following orders, Sir. Oh, and don't forget the trophy photo of you and your team showing your handy work. I'm sure mom would be so proud of her little junior.

    I 100% agree with the spirit of your post.

    The decision to handle this operation they way it was by Biden has been a disaster with serious and perhaps irreparable damage to US prestige and the lives of many involved. But is still his decision. I think Biden and his minions lied to many people in many directions to get their way into this disaster. But that's not my point.

    Civilian control of the military is a critical component of our political system and culture going all the way back to George Washington and then all the way back to Greece.

    The Biden Whitehouse and its NSC Staff set policy and make decisions. Not the Pentagon. The JCS (Milley and other Chiefs) assists the NSC with options and planning, working with the CCs, but they do not make the decisions. They also do not execute. That is up to the Combatant Commanders, ie Centom, Pacom, Southcom, etc.

    The President and NSC ultimately give commands to the CCs not to Milley or others. Milley is a figurehead at best. He does control training, long term planning, and can provide advice, but he is not in charge.

    Lloyd Austin as SecDef runs the military. Its his show.

    At the end of the day its President -> Secretary of Defense (+NSC) -> Combatant Commands -> Operational Commander (Joint) -> Manuever Units/Joint Forces. Usually there is an interlock with state department, Marines, CIA, and other governments.

    For each operation, the commander on the ground will be given a set of instructions and intent and then the operation will be initiated with all the support and contingencies around it. Those instructions are called orders. And cannot be changed without approval from high command.

    This is not a civilian thing where you go to Burger King instead of Starbucks. They are called orders. They are followed. And there are very good and practical reasons why.

    For something this big to happen, all the forces and the logistics commands must be synchronized days in advance. And then managed with fuel, supplies, pare parts, maintenance staff, controllers, etc all flowed forward. And Afghanistan is the hardest place in the world to conduct Corps Level operations and and a major air bridge. All is set in motion and controlled around the parameters of the decisions made by the NSC and the CCs.

    The ground commander cannot make decisions on his own without seriously endangering his command and all the forces in support.

    For example, there is an air tanker synchronization that has to occur to fly heavy transport and air support. Not taking off on the agreed time table and meeting that tanker will place all the tankers and all other systems in the air at risk. That will also then have ramifications for the air support overhead and all the recon. And then inflowing supplies like food and water and spares. Something heading south can lead to a chain reaction.

    That scene where the C17 took off in the crowd was almost certainly to meet a refueling window. Or be stranded. A fully loaded C17 needs a lot of fuel and its not going to take off full of fuel. It will take off 1/4 or even 1/8 full and need two tankers to make it 4K miles. Those tankers cannot wait around. They run in racetracks and then have to head back.

    This is just one example of the mechanics why orders are followed. There are lots of others.

    I can tell you that in the last 24 hours of this operation, everyone's hands are tied. Even if they wanted to, and could, they cannot. There is a hard timetable to get out securely.

    So, it is a long way from Centcom dealing with a difficult situation to someone in the 82nd kicking in your door.

    Yeah, Biden is a drooling psychopath. And he has found a lot of submissive losers with which to surround himself.

    But he has also revealed who he is to everyone that matters. And the next few months will also sort out the rest of the true colors.

    The way forward is not to go back in the bunker and mutter about door kickers, but to see the mistakes made and the lessons to be learned. And what opportunities there are to fix it. And to support those who want to fix it.

    Flagging me and the majority of the rest of the military with your keyboard is not constructive. Have some faith.

    Sen Cotton and Glenn Beck and the downstream ex-mil doing the work today are the ones to support and praise. And the CIA which was able to run its own show under the covers. Go over to their sites and donate some money. These men and women represent the best in America and the best in the military.
     

    rady

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    I 100% agree with the spirit of your post.

    The decision to handle this operation they way it was by Biden has been a disaster with serious and perhaps irreparable damage to US prestige and the lives of many involved. But is still his decision. I think Biden and his minions lied to many people in many directions to get their way into this disaster. But that's not my point.

    Civilian control of the military is a critical component of our political system and culture going all the way back to George Washington and then all the way back to Greece.

    The Biden Whitehouse and its NSC Staff set policy and make decisions. Not the Pentagon. The JCS (Milley and other Chiefs) assists the NSC with options and planning, working with the CCs, but they do not make the decisions. They also do not execute. That is up to the Combatant Commanders, ie Centom, Pacom, Southcom, etc.

    The President and NSC ultimately give commands to the CCs not to Milley or others. Milley is a figurehead at best. He does control training, long term planning, and can provide advice, but he is not in charge.

    Lloyd Austin as SecDef runs the military. Its his show.

    At the end of the day its President -> Secretary of Defense (+NSC) -> Combatant Commands -> Operational Commander (Joint) -> Manuever Units/Joint Forces. Usually there is an interlock with state department, Marines, CIA, and other governments.

    For each operation, the commander on the ground will be given a set of instructions and intent and then the operation will be initiated with all the support and contingencies around it. Those instructions are called orders. And cannot be changed without approval from high command.

    This is not a civilian thing where you go to Burger King instead of Starbucks. They are called orders. They are followed. And there are very good and practical reasons why.

    For something this big to happen, all the forces and the logistics commands must be synchronized days in advance. And then managed with fuel, supplies, pare parts, maintenance staff, controllers, etc all flowed forward. And Afghanistan is the hardest place in the world to conduct Corps Level operations and and a major air bridge. All is set in motion and controlled around the parameters of the decisions made by the NSC and the CCs.

    The ground commander cannot make decisions on his own without seriously endangering his command and all the forces in support.

    For example, there is an air tanker synchronization that has to occur to fly heavy transport and air support. Not taking off on the agreed time table and meeting that tanker will place all the tankers and all other systems in the air at risk. That will also then have ramifications for the air support overhead and all the recon. And then inflowing supplies like food and water and spares. Something heading south can lead to a chain reaction.

    That scene where the C17 took off in the crowd was almost certainly to meet a refueling window. Or be stranded. A fully loaded C17 needs a lot of fuel and its not going to take off full of fuel. It will take off 1/4 or even 1/8 full and need two tankers to make it 4K miles. Those tankers cannot wait around. They run in racetracks and then have to head back.

    This is just one example of the mechanics why orders are followed. There are lots of others.

    I can tell you that in the last 24 hours of this operation, everyone's hands are tied. Even if they wanted to, and could, they cannot. There is a hard timetable to get out securely.

    So, it is a long way from Centcom dealing with a difficult situation to someone in the 82nd kicking in your door.

    Yeah, Biden is a drooling psychopath. And he has found a lot of submissive losers with which to surround himself.

    But he has also revealed who he is to everyone that matters. And the next few months will also sort out the rest of the true colors.

    The way forward is not to go back in the bunker and mutter about door kickers, but to see the mistakes made and the lessons to be learned. And what opportunities there are to fix it. And to support those who want to fix it.

    Flagging me and the majority of the rest of the military with your keyboard is not constructive. Have some faith.

    Sen Cotton and Glenn Beck and the downstream ex-mil doing the work today are the ones to support and praise. And the CIA which was able to run its own show under the covers. Go over to their sites and donate some money. These men and women represent the best in America and the best in the military.
    You have a well reasoned response to a guy that is just sickened/angry to see what has happened to our military and how Americans were left behind, not to mention the reports of MWD's and contract service dogs.

    We have a flag pole and flag in the front yard that was erected to honor a medic from the 82nd Airborne, 504th PIR. SPC Christopher Katzenberger (http://www.emtt.org/katzpics.htm). We never knew him or met with the family, but he was part of several platoons of Marines and Army that the wife and I were supporting thru Soldier's Angels. That Topeka Church group showed up to protest at his funeral.

    As I'm looking at the flag now, I'm ashamed and upset with how the military has been shackled with "winning the hearts and minds," Minimal Collateral Damage, and all of the rest of the P.C. bullshit in this cluster fuck of a so called "War on Terror." Bush has this mess on his doorstep also. Fuck the nation building shit. Get in, get it done, and get out.

    These elites and their wars have drained the life from this country and others, and in their wake are the lost lives, broken bodies, and misery that marks their legacy going back centuries.

    You and I will not agree on the point of following orders. We will have to agree to disagree on that point. My father (awarded bronze star, WWII, that I wasn't aware of until after his death), faced disciplinary action because he disobeyed orders to not attend his mother's funeral. He left training camp and went anyhow. He was always a hero to me.

    The one thing I am grateful for is the Nazarene Fund and the outside contractors/retired military that have stepped up to the plate to rescue those that are trapped. You and I can agree on this, but their efforts are being stymied by the state department as they are actively telling other countries not to allow the flights into their country per David Barton.

    All of this has the stink of obama pulling the strings.
     
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    Oldloser

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    Good summary at the drive of the last 24 hours at KBL.

    Apparently MG Donahue held open the doors of the last C17s up to last minute during the Exfil. So he used his authority to drive this. Hard call.


    One other point is that China and Russia probably had a belly laugh over this, but then they shat in their pants.

    If we can pull 100K plus out in days then we can certainly air bridge in 100K in 2 days. With just a few days notice.

    Anyone who thinks that the operational US Military sucks is in for a hard and rude awakening. This was a shit sandwich. The 82nd and the US Air Force ate it and asked for more.
     

    pmclaine

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    Good summary at the drive of the last 24 hours at KBL.

    Apparently MG Donahue held open the doors of the last C17s up to last minute during the Exfil. So he used his authority to drive this. Hard call.


    One other point is that China and Russia probably had a belly laugh over this, but then they shat in their pants.

    If we can pull 100K plus out in days then we can certainly air bridge in 100K in 2 days. With just a few days notice.

    Anyone who thinks that the operational US Military sucks is in for a hard and rude awakening. This was a shit sandwich. The 82nd and the US Air Force ate it and asked for more.


    The exfil was uncontested.

    The Taliban in a Sun Tzu like way decided "Do not interfere when your enemy is in full retreat."

    I think the bombing was allowed to occur just to throw salt in the wound and knowing that at that point the US was totally committed to retreat and there would be no response.

    Stalingrad was lost because the Luftwaffe completely failed in air bridging supplies to 6th Army.

    What was shocking and impressive to the Russians was the US air bridging the supply of Allied Berlin when they blockaded it.

    What shocked the Chicoms was the US Army/1st Mar Div taking out their supplies/dead and wounded while chewing up ChiCom Regiments in the fight from Chosin to Hungnam.

    Desperation and the "Flight" adrenaline (there was no Fight) explain how so many were transported out of Astan.

    No one was impressed by this operation though the administration is desperately trying to frame it as "heroic".

    In the coming months we will learn if that "panic" allowed those willing to do us harm into the country.
     
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    Gommer

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    Remember Katrina?

    The NG went out kicking in doors seizing firearms, as I recall -- with orders to shoot to kill basically any resistance. They complied, probably more than we'll ever know.

    If you don't think the masses will follow orders, you are sadly mistaken. History tells a far different story, laden with the most grotesque actions.

    The Founding Fathers were not ignorant of this fact -- there's a reason the Constitution explicitly forbids a standing army outside a time of war. Why do you think we are always in a legal state of war and with troops stationed all around the world? It's all about circumventing the founding documents to establish a power structure that can't be challenged.

    Same thing with these people who continue to work for alphabet agencies but claim to support the constitution. It's like a wheel on a car saying they're not the car...
     
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    BLEE

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    Tyrants will gladly sacrifice their own mothers to achieve their goals of power. Look at history. They've all executed or otherwise sacrificed whoever, or whatever was in the way of achieving their goals. The only good tyrant is a dead tyrant.
     

    Oldloser

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    Remember Katrina?

    The NG went out kicking in doors seizing firearms, as I recall -- with orders to shoot to kill basically any resistance. They complied, probably more than we'll ever know.

    Sure they did. A company commander of the TXNG that moved into the Super Dome lived across from me. A Collin County Deputy who was a PLT SGT in the same unit is a shooting buddy. They flew in just north of NO and then drove in after the Hurricane. And nothing like this occurred. The most boring thing they did.
     

    Oldloser

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    The exfil was uncontested.

    The Taliban in a Sun Tzu like way decided "Do not interfere when your enemy is in full retreat."

    I think Biden blew KBL and made some horrible decisions. We can agree.

    The exfil was uncontested at KBL due to US air superiority and the presence of lots of US eyes. The B1/B52 and F16/F15 transponders were left on until they hit the AO just to make the point. The entire air bridge was very publicly displayed - and the ELINT systems left their transponders on the whole time. We had drones flying low to make the point. The Taliban knew they'd get their *SS kicked if they did anything.

    Its ironic that you mention Chosin. The decisive point for Chosin was the maintaining of a contested air bridge.

    Chosin was won due to the air port at Hagaru-ri that General Smith had built in November prior to the battle. Despite the PLA having almost complete control of the AO and the approaches, including effective fire across the air strip, Smith was able to fly in/air drop the bridging equipment and staff that the Marines used to pass through Funchillin Pass. Smith was also able to evac all the wounded and bring in much needed replacements, food, ammo and fuel prior to moving out. Without that airbridge, all the Marines and the Army units would have been lost.
     

    Gommer

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    Sure they did. A company commander of the TXNG that moved into the Super Dome lived across from me. A Collin County Deputy who was a PLT SGT in the same unit is a shooting buddy. They flew in just north of NO and then drove in after the Hurricane. And nothing like this occurred. The most boring thing they did.
    There's ignorance, then there's willful ignorance.

    It's not like what happened is a secret, nor is it difficult to find articles and videos of it.
     

    NoDopes

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    Dec 6, 2020
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    Sure they did. A company commander of the TXNG that moved into the Super Dome lived across from me. A Collin County Deputy who was a PLT SGT in the same unit is a shooting buddy. They flew in just north of NO and then drove in after the Hurricane. And nothing like this occurred. The most boring thing they did.

    There's ignorance, then there's willful ignorance.

    It's not like what happened is a secret, nor is it difficult to find articles and videos of it.
    Exactly, there are fucking videos of them doing this, including old ladies.
     
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    pmclaine

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  • Nov 6, 2011
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    I think Biden blew KBL and made some horrible decisions. We can agree.

    The exfil was uncontested at KBL due to US air superiority and the presence of lots of US eyes. The B1/B52 and F16/F15 transponders were left on until they hit the AO just to make the point. The entire air bridge was very publicly displayed - and the ELINT systems left their transponders on the whole time. We had drones flying low to make the point. The Taliban knew they'd get their *SS kicked if they did anything.

    Its ironic that you mention Chosin. The decisive point for Chosin was the maintaining of a contested air bridge.

    Chosin was won due to the air port at Hagaru-ri that General Smith had built in November prior to the battle. Despite the PLA having almost complete control of the AO and the approaches, including effective fire across the air strip, Smith was able to fly in/air drop the bridging equipment and staff that the Marines used to pass through Funchillin Pass. Smith was also able to evac all the wounded and bring in much needed replacements, food, ammo and fuel prior to moving out. Without that airbridge, all the Marines and the Army units would have been lost.


    Wasnt much air was going to do in that congested shit hole without creating a propaganda nightmare for the US. The Taliban was so tight to the US perimeter you would have risked our own guys along with the hordes of civilians. Sun Tzu said something about keeping your enemy close.

    The Taliban on the ground had little to any ability to read our air transponders. They are not the cave men we like to consider them...I am sure they have the Oxford guys to run technology and lord knows we left plenty of technology behind for them to use. Haqqani wasnt going to get rid of the "invaders" any faster than we were doing it on our own. He had no reason to attack when we were running, it would have been stupid on his part. The "Isis-K" (quote, un quote) attack was to add shame to what was happening. For all we know the Taliban did it but we are bending over backwards to get people to believe the Taliban is "working" with us that we had to scapegoat the Koursan.

    At Chosin the Marine Corsairs dominated the skies because at that time in the war the skies were uncontested. Mig Alley had yet to become a thing. The Professor caught shit from the army for his "plodding" advance but while the Army had packed away their concerns about captured Chinese in October a month prior to the battles near Chosin, Smith realized they would put the advance in great trouble if they joined the fight in force and he planned accordingly.

    Guts, artillery and air power made Chosin the victory clutched from the grasp of defeat that Bidens Kabul exit wishes it was.