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For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

sakoshooter

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 21, 2009
38
1
I have been wanting to write this post for quite some time now. It's been nearly 2-1/2 years since I purchased my Cheytac M-200 Intervention sniper rifle system. Sadly, the rifle that I was hoping to be the centerpiece of my collection, fizzled out before it even began, so to speak.

When I first received my new rifle, I cleaned it according to the manufacturer's instructions to the letter. After firing nearly 12 rounds or so, I encountered several problems almost instantly. First, everytime that I would eject a spent casing, the magazine would fall out of the magazine well. On top of that, the bolt also locked up about mid-way through cycling a round and became severely stuck on top of the magazine itself. It took me several attempts to gently tap the stuck bolt back to the open position with a series of different rubber mattets. At this point, I was beyond upset and for good reason, considering what the whole package deal cost me (around $16,000.00). Also, I couldn't get the gun to pattern for nothing, even if it was only twelve shots.

As a result, I then contacted Cheyenne Tactical (Cheytac) and told them what had happened. I got several different answers, but nothing could really explain it. I finally got in contact with Cheytac's "Master Armorer", Dave Durham. He instructed me to send him back the rifle and he would try to repair it and send it back to me within a couple of days (Everyone was getting ready to leave for that year's Shot-Show. Anyway, a few days later, I was able to pick up my "repaired" rifle from my local FFL dealer and take it home and try it once again.

When I attempted to test the rifle again, this time instead of the magazine falling out of the magazine well with only one bullet in the gun, I could now cycle the gun almost three times when firing and then the magazine would fall out of the magazine well. It was like this when using either one of the two supplied magazines. The next problem, was that I couldn't get the M-200 to group any better than three to three and half inches at best at 100 yards for zero. At this point in time, I didn't feel like dealing anymore with Cheytac or their experts. Instead, I ended up purchasing a total of three cases of Cheytac ammo (198 rounds per case at around $1,300.00 per case), thinking that it had to be a problem with the ammo. It took me almost three years to find out that I was wrong about the ammo.

Recently, I sent an email to the ammunition department of Cheytac, inquiring as to what would be the best way to purchase a bulk supply of the 419 grain bullets, so that I could possibly try to work up a handload for my M-200. A day later, I received an email reply from the folks at Jamison International, who manufacture the ammo for the Cheytac instead. Little did I know, this would in fact, turn out to be the best thing that I ever did for my Cheytac rifle.

I was put in contact with the owner and president of Jamison International, Mr. Marc Jamison. He and I discussed on the phone the problems that I was having with my Cheytac M-200 system, and he told me that if I were to either bring it up to his place of business in Sturgis, South Dakota or send it to him through my local FFL dealer, that he would take care of the matter for me personally. You can only imagine the relief that I felt at this point. As it turns out, a week later, me and my best friend and long-time shooting partner, headed out for South Dakota with my M-200 in tow. It took us around 12 hours or so of driving, but the trip turned out to be well worth the effort. Let me say this; Marc and Chris at Jamison International are a wealth of information when dealing with anything in either the ammunition and or the firearms industry. I sat down with these gentlemen and explained the entire history of my problems with my Cheytac rifle and then that's when Marc and Chris went to work, doing what they do best!! Below, I am going to try to give a complete list of everything that Marc and Chris at Jamison found wrong with my rifle and what they did to rectify and repair the problems that were found:

__________________________________________________

ITEMIZED INSPECTION:

-Removed optics.
-Verified chamber, bore and rifling were free of obstruction or debris.
-Checked barrel for locking position, and ring tightness.
-Checked bolt for serial number. No serial number present. Wear marks on under-side of bolt. Customer verified wear caused by improperly fitted magazines.
-Checked receiver and chamber against Go gauge. Bolt closed smoothly on GO.
-Checked against No-Go gauge (+0.005). Bolt closed smoothly on No-Go.
-Checked against field gauge (+0.009). Bolt closed smoothly on field.
-Checked again JI plus headspace gauge set to (+0.015). Bolt closed smoothly on +0.015.
-Re-checked against JI plus headspace gauge set to (+0.017). Bolt locked at 2 o'clock position. No-Go = +0.017.
-Checked chamber against .408 Cheytac minimum chamber function gauge. Gauge will not close in chamber.
-Color coated .408 Cheytac minimum chamber function gauge. Markings on gauge indicated chamber neck undersized for minimum chamber. Minimum neck internal diameter - 0.442.
__________________________________________________________

ITEMIZED REPAIRS:

-Rifle disassembled. Barrel removed.
-Barrel placed in fixture and indicated (0.0003).
-Chamber cleaned and bore cleared .408 Cheytac minimum chamber function gauge. Dropped in Barrel. Ok.
-Barrel re-fit to receiver and locked down.
-Re-check headspace JI plus headspace gauge set to (+0.018). Bolt locked at 2 o'clock position. Re-cut chamber No-Go = +0.018.
-Barrel removed and re-fixtured for refitting.
-Barrel face cut (-0.017).
-Barrel step cut (-0.017).
-All sharp corners de-burred: Chamber lightly polished, wiped clean and bore cleared. Barrel re-attached to receiver.
-Checked receiver and chamber against Go-gauge. Bolt closed smoothly on Go.
-Checked against No-Go. Bolt locked at 2 o'clock position. Proper headspace established.
-Receiver and chamber checked against .408 Cheytac minimum chamber function gauge (color coated). Bolt closed on gauge with ease, gauge extracted with minimum disturbance to color coat. Minimum chamber established.
-Muzzle crown checked-Ok.
-Magazine #1 set up parallel. Magazine ears cut at (-0.025) an de-burred. Magazine locked in action and held under pressure in the up-most position. Drag still present on bottom of bolt.
-Magazine #1 returned to machine shop and re-cut additional (-0.020)and deburred. Magazine locked in action and held in up-most position under pressure. Magazine ears clear of bolt completely. No drag on bolt.
-Magazine #2 set up parellel. Magazine ears decked down (-0.045). Magazine ears clear of bolt. No drag on bolt.
-Bolt was now inscribed with matching serial number.
-Complete re-assembly of rifle.
-Rifle sent for live-fire testing. New factory match-grade .408 Cheytac ammo. Customer verified rifle accuracy. Witnessed by Marc Jamison, owner of Jamison International.

As you all can see by everything stated above, it's no wonder that my M-200 was never able to pattern descent groups at 100 yards. At this point, the only other thing that I need to do, as per instructed by Marc and Chris, is to replace the factory trigger with a Jewell trigger, pre-set to around 2 pounds for pull. The order is already in and I should be receiving my new trigger in about three weeks. Also, my rifle now cycles ammo flawlessly, without jamming and I am also now able to load a full magazine of shells, without the magazine falling out of the magazine well. I am really looking forward to getting my Cheytac M-200 back into the game!! It would never have been possible without the superior knowledge, experience and expertise of Marc, Chris and the whole crew at Jamison International.

So, boy and girls, let it be known, that if you already own a Cheytac M-200 Intervention and are experiencing problems, do yourselves a huge favor and call up the crew at Jamison International and set up an appointment with these guys. I was fortunate enough to not only get my gun repaired correctly, but I also made some really good friends and a friendship that I can enjoy for a long time to come.

In closing, a heart-felt thanks and apology goes out to Jamison International. As it turns out, the problem was the rifle itself, not the ammunition.

Until next time, KEEP YOUR POWDER DRY!!
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

I sure hate it when expensive things don't work right!

I'm glad you got it all figured out!

Steve
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

Glad you got it fixed. Did Cheytac pay for that or are you out of pocket for that.
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

The crew at Jamison International took real good care of me.
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

So what does "Master Armorer", Dave Durham, have a master in? Assembling pellet guns, LOL
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

I know they took good care of you but did you have to pay?
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

chey tac owns jamison international Why did cheytac not take care of you?
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

Wait, you spent $16,000 on a rifle and it came with a $hit factory trigger, you must be joking!

And you spent that kind of $$ and you had to go elsewhere to get your gun fixed?

After that kind of service I would not have Cheytac build me a bookshelf let alone a gun.
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

I didn't pay anything, but I did want to somehow pay for something, so I went ahead and bought some reloading supplies from them before I left.
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

You paid to drive there! Time and gas, for a 16K rifle! shameful. Glad you got the Kinks out
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

Actually, Cheytac and Jamison are business partners and I already knew this. Cheytac attempted to take care of the issue with my M-200, but I don't believe that they did it with any intention of caring about a bad problem. I felt that all that they cared about was getting their money.
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

Where was reciever machined? Is it a Briley reciever? Or one by EDM Arms?
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

Cheytac has had a few business partners (from what I hear) and they tend to fizzle out or not pay bills.. They had a hell of a builder for the original m200!
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

Trust me, I will never ever order another rifle system or parts or anything from them ever again.
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

Actually, from what I understand, Cheytac is the one that is not paying some of their bills right now. This kind of stuff makes it difficult to do business and the customer is usually the one who suffers, no matter whether buying a 50 cent stick of bubble gum or a $16,000 rifle.
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

I hate to see that you had all that trouble.But if I had to drive 12 hours to get my 16000 rifle fixed and they wanted me to put a new trigger in it at my cost. I would be more than po ! I wouldnt have felt any need to buy nothing from them? You are a patient man!!!I hope it works out for you now. Good shooting
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sakoshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually, from what I understand, Cheytac is the one that is not paying some of their bills right now. This kind of stuff makes it difficult to do business and the customer is usually the one who suffers, no matter whether buying a 50 cent stick of bubble gum or a $16,000 rifle. </div></div>

I meant Cheytac not paying bills (what I have heard). Sorry for the sloppy wording
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

Sakoshooter,

I was just busting your balls a bit, glad you got the problems fixed. It just irritates the shit out of me when you spend the money and time to get just exactly what you want and it turns out to be crap. I think we have all been there.
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

Great post..and I too am curious as to the receiver maker..
What is the manufacturer info and city & state on the receiver??
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

Hard to believe "Master Armorer", Dave Durham would not have done a simple go, no-go, check. Shameful. Time problems are one thing but shoddy workmanship at Cadillac prices is just unacceptable. Would think they would toss in a trigger for free also. It would be the honorable and good business sense.

Had an issue with my M96 Windrunner and took it to Bill Ritchie and he took care of it while I waited, showed me around the shop, and gave me his stock rod stiffeners a ten pack of ammo and a couple other little items. When you pay a lot for a firearm you expect more and usually get a little less but obviously these are two completely different fix situations on similar weapons.
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

Right on with the Mechanic. I got my Windrunner from a previous owner. Bill Ritchie still honor the 100% customer satisfaction policy. He ended up fixing it a couple times, but gave me a soft case free of charge and shipping the second trip on him. Now that's customer service.
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

Much like everything else in the world, there is always more to the story than what appears.
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

You paid that kind of money for their product, which turned out to be faulty and they didn't fix it immediatelly and let you go with problem unsolved? What kind of business policy is this? They should appologize to hell and back and give you loads of stuff for free just for the trouble.

Wouldn't buy a shovel from them.

I am really glad you have your rifle fixed. Hopefully you can enjoy it from now on. good shooting!
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

I haven't pulled the trigger on my EDM .408 yet, but it is good to know that If I have issues that Richie/EDM will back me up. I also bought it as new via a previous owner here on the hide, so event if I'm not the originl owner I'm still GTG.
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems

I also have a wonderful experience with Jamison Intl. due to the inferior product supplied by Chey-Tac. My neighbor and I each purchased an M-200. We also followed the break-in instructions and cleaning steps listed in the manuel.

From the start the weapons couldn't be zeroed at 100 yards. We contacted Chey-Tac and were told that our sight picture was not accurate or the scope was not secured. When asked about torque settings used when Nightforce Scope was installed by Chey-Tac, the answer was we don't use a torque wrench as per instructions in Nightforce and the Chey-Tac manuels. We just crank 'em down hand tight. Check scope and mountings...all tight and re-torqued correct. No change. Contacted Nightforce directly, no problems with scope.

Meanwhile, following the break-in steps we noticed that both rifles showed signs of a head-space/pressure problem. Again contacted Chey-Tac with nothing but BS and excuses about shooter error. They were also very quick to point at Jamison Intl. as the problem with splitting brass.

When we still couldn't get a zero at 100 yards we again contacted Chey-Tac and were told that the bullet was not stable until 400 to 500 yards.

We again contacted Chey-Tac with concerns about splitting brass and no zero. We checked our powder loads at one point with four different powder scales. We exhausted every avenue to make sure there was nothing wrong on our end.

We received word to bring weapons to Arco, company headquarters, and they would check weapons.

We drove to Arco and proceeded to be insulted and basically called liars. We supplied brass and not even a mention of possible head-space problems. We offered to leave weapons to be checked by their master armorers. They refused. We were asked if we were experienced with big bore shooting. Never wanting to show my hand, I answered no. We again were told that we didn't know about our sight picture and how it will change with time and if the weapons sat for the winter the sight picture will change. All they would do was claim shooter error and never checked the weapons. They never once looked at the weapons.

While at Chey-Tac, Terri from Jamison Intl. called. When told of brass problems she told them to check the weapons with the Go-No Go gauge. They put the go gage in both weapons, no problem camming over. No Go gauge, no problem camming over. The response from Terri at that point was do not shoot those weapons there is a problem. Response from Chey-Tac was every weapon checked with the No Go gauge all cammed over. The excuse offered by Chey-Tac was that we "build" them loose so that the military can use them in dirt and sand environments.

Driving back home I was fuming. Upon returning home we were contacted by Terri and asked if there was any way that Jamison Intl. could get a look at the weapons as they were frustrated with being blamed for poor brass.

I loaded the weapons up and drove to Sturgis to have Jamison Intl. check weapons. Marc, Chris, Terri and Kathy were fabulous. The weapons were checked and head-space was so far off, more than double the specs that were supposedly allowable for military shipment. Marc and Chris even checked the reloading dies only to find out these didn't meet spec. So everything that should have been checked when building the weapon and before shipping was never done. I came to the conclusion that Chey-Tac only assembles parts without any quality control or even worse, no knowledge of tolerances and specs. Jamison Intl. took care of all milling and gave us back functioning weapons.

Now the story gets even better. Upon submitting my costs to get Jamison Intl. to fix my overpriced piece of crap, Chey-Tac sent me a bounced check. I had nothing but terrible experiences with the entire Chey-Tac side all the way to the CFO of the company. Always nothing but excuses. I finally got reimbursed while being told that Chey-Tac took care of me and my issues. Wrong, at no time did anyone from Chey-Tac express an interest in our problems or that their product was sound. I had asked to be put in contact with the owner of Chey-Tac to no avail. Even the owner of Chey-Tac couldn't be bothered with the quality of his product. Of note, Jamison did not charge me anything for their time and work.

As with you, the best thing that happened was Marc Jamison and his wonderful staff. I can't say enough great things about Jamison Intl. and their product. They are the best.

This is only a brief synopsis of my experience with Chey-Tac.
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: krecon1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I haven't pulled the trigger on my EDM .408 yet, but it is good to know that If I have issues that Richie/EDM will back me up. I also bought it as new via a previous owner here on the hide, so event if I'm not the originl owner I'm still GTG. </div></div>
That was one cool original owner too. lol

Man, I can't express the great customer service and products EDM supplies. If there is to be an issue, Bill would jump all over it. This is not the first or last issues I have heard from the Cheytac crew. I am so sorry for the people getting screwed with 11k to 16k rifles..
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

I can't come anywhere NEAR affording something like that so I'm not going to "pump-up" and say: "I wouldn't buy anything from them!" I probably won't. But not for this post's reason... But I will say this... Any company that practices business that way will most likely not be around for long.

I'm sorry to hear you had this problem and sincerely hope the rest of your experience with your M-200 is enjoyable. That's a lot of freakin' money!
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems

Stand buy for CheyTac's response to these outrageous posts. As you all know there are two sides to a story and when we check dates facts and first hand accounts. CheyTac will respond to this as professionally as possible unlike Bill Olmer and Bill Mitchell
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

I for one would LOVE to hear Chey-Tac respond. Not so much as a shooting enthusiast but more as a business case study. How anyone could charge such prices and deliver so poorly is beyond comprehension. I almost find this hard to believe but if Chey-Tac is full of crap (or *ANY* mfg) lets hear it.
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SANDMAN 070</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Stand buy for CheyTac's response to these outrageous posts. As you all know there are two sides to a story and when we check dates facts and first hand accounts. CheyTac will respond to this as professionally as possible unlike Bill Olmer and Bill Mitchell </div></div>

If the headspace was that far out they are going to have a time explaining it. I am sure if Jamison fixed them they could offer a reply as well. I wouldn't be so quick to use the word "outrageous". So far it sounds as if the stories have a lot of substance to them. Waiting for more word...

Josh
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems

I agree MD. I would also like to know how 2 $16K rifles can get out of a shop without checking headspace and test firing. My guess is that we will hear nothing from them. It would be a real shame to think one of our snipers could have a REAL high value target in site and not be able to take the shot because it takes to much time to close the bolt on a no-go gauge.
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

If you have a .408 from EDM Arms, it will perform and it will do it very well. You're safe. No worries.
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems

Marc and Chris at Jamison told me your story when I was up there with them last week, getting my gun fixed. It sounds like you had as much luck as I did. Sure is a shame, isn't it? It's still hard for me to conceive the thought that we the consumers have had so many problems with something that has been so glorified on television on the military channel and all, along with the hefty price tag.

One of my major concerns that I've had since the first time that I experienced problems with my M-200 Intervention was that it's one thing for a weapon to malfuntion or lock up on one of us here in the states, but it is an entirely different situation when it happens on the battlefield, during a heated firefight, with enemy tango's popping out from every knook and cranny, so to speak. Yes, I am a military veteran. I know what it's like when something malfunctions in the field and you're sitting there, thousands of miles from home, asking yourself why the malfunction happened in the first place. Thank God though, I never had a weapon malfunction, even though it was like being in a giant sandbox 24/7.
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems

I'm glad that I stumbled upon this. I've been thinking about getting one of these, as I shoot with a couple of guys who have the Cheytac 300WM and 308 models and they are both happy with them, but it looks like I may have to wait a while or do something else.
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sakoshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

One of my major concerns that I've had since the first time that I experienced problems with my M-200 Intervention was that it's one thing for a weapon to malfuntion or lock up on one of us here in the states, but it is an entirely different situation when it happens on the battlefield, during a heated firefight, with enemy tango's popping out from every knook and cranny, so to speak. Yes, I am a military veteran. I know what it's like when something malfunctions in the field and you're sitting there, thousands of miles from home, asking yourself why the malfunction happened in the first place. Thank God though, I never had a weapon malfunction, even though it was like being in a giant sandbox 24/7. </div></div>


Haven't seen nor heard of M-200s in Iraq or Afghanistan (doesn't mean much, too many different organizations running around to keep track of them all)-- I've heard of great marketing campaigns associated with M-200s, however.
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems

Had no intention of posting anything until I saw that I was not the only one frustrated by Chey-Tac's lack of customer service and indifference to quality control. Because of Chey-Tac's pointing fingers at Jamison Intl. is how we first contacted Jamison. It was refreshing to deal Marc and Chris and Co. You are right, they are great and I plan on further dealings with Jamison Intl. They are wonderful and a wealth of knowledge.
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CubeWarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sakoshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

One of my major concerns that I've had since the first time that I experienced problems with my M-200 Intervention was that it's one thing for a weapon to malfuntion or lock up on one of us here in the states, but it is an entirely different situation when it happens on the battlefield, during a heated firefight, with enemy tango's popping out from every knook and cranny, so to speak. Yes, I am a military veteran. I know what it's like when something malfunctions in the field and you're sitting there, thousands of miles from home, asking yourself why the malfunction happened in the first place. Thank God though, I never had a weapon malfunction, even though it was like being in a giant sandbox 24/7. </div></div>


Haven't seen nor heard of M-200s in Iraq or Afghanistan (doesn't mean much, too many different organizations running around to keep track of them all)-- I've heard of great marketing campaigns associated with M-200s, however.</div></div>

Here is the link to just one of the EDM arms Windrunners that went to the sand box for sale. He did this at no charge. Bill is a good guy.
http://02bfe1c.netsolhost.com/news.htm

Les_Rayne check your mail P.M. sent
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

You, my fellow appreciator of quality weapons, were very fortunate indeed. I have known Mr. Jamison and his associates for many years. You could not have met a more knowledgeable person, when it comes to fire arms, unless you are old enough to have met Mr. Browning himself.

Marc has always dazzled me by pulling weapon and ammo stats out of his head and giving me the info.. when checked later they have always been correct. It doesn't matter if it is specs. or history, the guy is a wealth of information.

Marc and I drove to Arizona, a few years back, to meet with Bill Rugar, just a year or two before he died. I personally watched a trivia match between the two of them that lasted more than an hour. Mr. rugar was in his 80s and infirm due to arthritis but there was absolutely nothing wrong with his brainbox. He was sharp as a tack. Marc and Mr. Rugar disagreed on something concerning Savage, if my memory serves me right. When facts were checked Marc was correct.

Mr. Jamison and I were business partners when the M-200 prototype was brought to us for a look/see and discussion about manufacturing a proper case for the weapon. It has the potential for being a very nice rifle indeed. I know you have some trigger time with it post rework by Jamison so you know what a delight it is to shoot. It is to bad it they can't seem to get them out of Cheytac with the same consistant quality.
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

Still waiting for someone from CheyTac to explain why they can't use a go, no-go gauge. I think I will be waiting a long time. Seems to me Jamison should take over the company and return the quality back to what it should be
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

The drama continues :p
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

Good information to have. I have been deciding between a CheyTac M310 or just having my own custom action built. This defiantly made the choice for me on that and on who I will go to when it comes time to feed it as well.
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

Well it seems most everyone has had their say and opinion, so I will respond since I was specifically named and called out.



<span style="font-weight: bold">Headspace.</span> Cheytac did have a policy of headspace at .007" over GO, for whatever reason. I personally discussed this with Bill Ritchie when he made the barreled actions for the 408 and they all came in at "+7". That policy has been changed but that's another story, and more explanation will be following.



Bill/Bill's headspace was .015" over GO. I admit it. I missed it. It should have never been delivered without proper adjustment. I am the lone individual responsible. We have had a great, and trusted 9+ year relationship with the vendor of our barrels, who has always chambered them for the M200. The M200 barrels are designed to be interchanged between receivers so the tolerance must be exact. The Lot# of the barrels in question were beautifully exact to the thousandth inch, but were all long on headspace and it wasn't caught before these rifles were delivered. The reason for this was found, rectified and finalized. So for those still wanting to point fingers at a bad guy, dog pile, etc. you now know who. It's not a vendors fault, UPS, Obamas or anyone's but mine. I own it.



<span style="font-weight: bold">Versions of the story.</span> Many, many people here know me and have spent time, worked with me, etc. Many of you have written and called me asking me to respond. To those that know me, my question to all of you is... Does "The Bill's" version of this story sound like my SOP? As previously stated by someone, "There are two sides of every story" and this is mine and other trainers here of the incident. Maybe it's "He said/She said" at this point, but it's my version and exact as I can remember it.



<span style="font-weight: bold">First Contact.</span> Bill/Bill had previously made arrangements to pick the rifles up here, shoot them, zero scopes, etc. They arrived, and one of our trainers Kevin took them to the range with free ammo to shoot, until they were satisfied. I saw the targets on their return. Straight from the box one Bill had 5 rounds into about 1/2 MOA at 100 yds. with touching holes. The other Bill shot 1-1/4 MOA but admitted he needed more time behind the rifle.

They demanded "freebies". OK I would too, and always oblige. They were given t-shirts, 40 more rounds each of (free) loaded ammo, and were told they could have some of our once fired brass. Now, I keep all our R&D, rifle QC check-whatever, once fired stuff for customers who come here, train, or any other reason. Most people take 100 or so pieces, some take a couple hundred. These guys took about 100 pounds. 2 feed sacks they struggled with. They even backed their truck up to the bay door in order not to have to carry it very far. That was the initial meeting, and all left happy, and they giggled like little girls.



<span style="font-weight: bold">Second Contact.</span> Phone call only. I was called with the complaint of "groups are all over the place". On asking questions, I was told the rifle groups great but after one group is fired then another, the next whole group moves either left, right, up, down and never where the first one was. Keep in mind we all here had previously seen the results of the rifles shot.



In my experience the only shifting due to scope, is not the scope but the large Pic rail it attaches to. These screws will loosen and can cause the effect. So they were instructed to check all scope attaching hardware for proper torque.



<span style="font-weight: bold">Third Contact. </span> They arrived at the shop once more with attitude in tow. It was obvious they had established a relationship with some people at Jamison. Bill #1 was even on the cell phone with them most of the time here (which wasn't long). They never came inside. They refused to bring the rifles inside. We offered to go shoot with them, and again denied.



The original and only complaint was still there. Groups changing and never where the last group was. Bill #2 even bragged about hitting pop cans at 1000 yds.(Yes, he said that in front of 3 witnesses). But when he left the rifle, then got back on his groups would shift. Bill's version is right in that we did ask how much large bore experience he had. He replied "none". And he now publishes here "he didn't want to show his hand to us". How the hell are we to troubleshoot without having solid facts? Were we being lied to? Set up? They even had targets which showed excellent 5 shot groups, and right next to it was another nice 5 shot group that was 1-1/2" away from the first. So I'm thinking, and used the term to them, "vertical and horizontal dispersion based on the shooting position". It was explained how the wrong re-built prone position can lead to this once off and on the rifle. Again it was requested to bring it to the shop for checks and/or let one of our guys shoot the rifles. Again it was denied.



Now this is where it started hitting the fan. They took attempted constructive criticism, and interpreted it as "You can't shoot". No one likes to be told that and I understand. That is NOT what was stated or intended, but was the way it was taken. Later they said that "we insulted them". How did I know since he "was not showing his hand"? I'm trying to give solid advice based on what I'm being told to the best of my ability.



Standard GO gages were brought out to the parking lot and rifles were checked. Of course they both closed on the NOGO. It was requested they bring the rifles in the shop for an exact headspace measurement for at least a third time. That request was flatly denied. The Bill on the phone, had already made up his mind for his Sturgis trip, and nothing was going to change it. We were never allowed any closer to those two rifles than the truck bed in the parking lot that day. This could and should have been fixed and finalized right there.



The scope issue was also discussed. When they asked us "the torque" (like there is only one) they were given the value of 15"lbs. They then admitted they'd called Nightforce and was told the torque was 65"lb.s! "They were just seeing what we'd say! There, they had us". Now I knew this was going south fast because games were being played. I guess the many torque wrenches in my shop are for decorative purposes only. The Seekonk and FAT wrenches supplied as standard equipment to every Mil rifle sold, is for hammers and punches? I say that because some here have already questioned my ability to use them.



I stand guilty as charged of allowing these rifles out with long headspace. Putting my other personal ignorance's on display is not warranted within this thread. Start another if you will, but let's stick to the title of this thing.





<span style="font-weight: bold">What has been done with lesson learned.</span> To insure this headspace problem will never happen again, policies have changed, equipment, machines and personnel have been acquired to headspace all barrels here at one shop to insure tighter controls. And Bill/Bill, thank you for bringing a problem to my attention even though I was not allowed to fix it. My lessons learned on dealing with people are still on going. I am not a psychiatrist not mind reader, only a trigger puller with human deficiencies at that. Anyone is welcome to contact me at any time for further details.



Dave
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't come anywhere NEAR affording something like that so I'm not going to "pump-up" and say: "I wouldn't buy anything from them!" I probably won't. But not for this post's reason... But I will say this... Any company that practices business that way will most likely not be around for long.</div></div>

You're probably better off buying a 50 cal BMG rifle. Easier to get, plenty of projectile options, and probably more cost effective given the current issues with this vendor, and the ammo might be similar in price.

I looked into one of their 375 options... but... if I do that, I'll probably just get a 338 Lapua Mag from AI or Sako.

(I like that you can replace the AI barrels yourself, though I do have a TRG-42 in 300WM...)

Frankly, I'm amazed by the CheyTac issues... damn... the two gents above are WAY cooler than me.
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: djd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">Headspace.</span> Cheytac did have a policy of headspace at .007" over GO, for whatever reason. I personally discussed this with Bill Ritchie when he made the barreled actions for the 408 and they all came in at "+7". That policy has been changed but that's another story, and more explanation will be following.



Bill/Bill's headspace was .015" over GO. I admit it. I missed it. It should have never been delivered without proper adjustment. I am the lone individual responsible. We have had a great, and trusted 9+ year relationship with the vendor of our barrels, who has always chambered them for the M200. The M200 barrels are designed to be interchanged between receivers so the tolerance must be exact. The Lot# of the barrels in question were beautifully exact to the thousandth inch, but were all long on headspace and it wasn't caught before these rifles were delivered. The reason for this was found, rectified and finalized. So for those still wanting to point fingers at a bad guy, dog pile, etc. you now know who. It's not a vendors fault, UPS, Obamas or anyone's but mine. I own it.



In my experience the only shifting due to scope, is not the scope but the large Pic rail it attaches to. These screws will loosen and can cause the effect. So they were instructed to check all scope attaching hardware for proper torque.


Standard GO gages were brought out to the parking lot and rifles were checked. Of course they both closed on the NOGO. It was requested they bring the rifles in the shop for an exact headspace measurement for at least a third time. That request was flatly denied. The Bill on the phone, had already made up his mind for his Sturgis trip, and nothing was going to change it. We were never allowed any closer to those two rifles than the truck bed in the parking lot that day. This could and should have been fixed and finalized right there.



The scope issue was also discussed. When they asked us "the torque" (like there is only one) they were given the value of 15"lbs. They then admitted they'd called Nightforce and was told the torque was 65"lb.s! "They were just seeing what we'd say! There, they had us". Now I knew this was going south fast because games were being played. I guess the many torque wrenches in my shop are for decorative purposes only. The Seekonk and FAT wrenches supplied as standard equipment to every Mil rifle sold, is for hammers and punches? I say that because some here have already questioned my ability to use them.



I stand guilty as charged of allowing these rifles out with long headspace. Putting my other personal ignorance's on display is not warranted within this thread. Start another if you will, but let's stick to the title of this thing.


<span style="font-weight: bold">What has been done with lesson learned.</span> To insure this headspace problem will never happen again, policies have changed, equipment, machines and personnel have been acquired to headspace all barrels here at one shop to insure tighter controls. And Bill/Bill, thank you for bringing a problem to my attention even though I was not allowed to fix it. My lessons learned on dealing with people are still on going. I am not a psychiatrist not mind reader, only a trigger puller with human deficiencies at that. Anyone is welcome to contact me at any time for further details.

Dave

</div></div>

I actually have a few questions since I am guilty of throwing stones.

1. When was the last EDM Arms Bill Ritchie manufactured receiver and barreled action received and sold by CheyTac?

2. I have made mistakes in my life so I do not live in glass houses but I have left oil out of a truck seizing a motor. It was the last time it will EVER happen again. Are you going to let anyone that could possibly have one of these head space issues know about it and subsequently issue a free repair? Similar to some of the .50BMG manufactured problems that resulted in severe injury.

I think something in the middle of the two conversations may be close but after spending that kind of coin on a rifle I can understand wanting to get someone else to fix it. Being in the automotive biz I live it daily.

The scope torque is 15 inch pounds and 65 inch pounds so I guess you are both right.
http://www.badgerordnance.com/folders/downloads/3/Mounting%20rings%20and%20bases.pdf

I do appreciate that you did come on and answer the thread. Like it was said elsewhere "The trouble with using experience as a guide is that the final exam often comes first and then the lesson."
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems

Dave,

You may want to rethink a couple of your statements. In your defense, you weren't even there when we went to Arco. If you recall, you were recovering from your back surgery. We never spoke to you at that event. The only conversation with you that day was by phone with your staff when we were there. If memory serves me correctly, Kevin called you after the no-go stage of the time line. That is when your explanation via phone with Kevin was relayed to us. Your explanation according to Kevin when he told you that the M-200's he had checked in the past closed on no-go was they didn't pass no-go because they were built loose for the military use in sand and dirt environments. You are in no position to list the events of that day other than that phone call. Nor do I believe that you were present with my conversations with Mr. Mewbourne or Mr. Randall. I will admit that my partner can get, shall we say, colorful. Give the guy a break, $15,000.00 worth of frustration has to have some leeway. Remember, you guys are in the Customer Service business if you want to survive.

As far as the infamous Arco trip, we were contacted to take our rifles and ammunition down there that day. We didn't just show up. Your company asked us to drive down there. Now why would I drive all that way to Arco with weapons in tow if not to have them checked. I brought all the ammo I had. Mr. Randall told me that we were supposed to go to the range and have the weapons checked (as told to me at a later date from Mr. Randall). Apparently the word never got to Arco. We did try to leave the rifles with your staff but were rebuffed. To say we never came inside was not true. We talked with Jason and Kevin while they cleaned some weapons in the back room. The phone conversation with Terri and the go-no go gauges took place on the company phone with Kevin and my partner. Terri had happened to call concerning something else as well as our brass problems. When Terri asked Kevin to check the weapons with the gauges is when he went outside. The conversation with Jason and the brass problem took place in the back. As I tried to tell him, the brass problem was not unique to the used brass but new hand loaded brass as well as factory loads. Jason's response to me was, "We only have your word on that. That's why we don't give away used brass". I had color marked the primer pockets of the brass. Red was used brass, green was new brass hand loaded (load supplied by Chey-Tac), unmarked was factory. All three versions of the brass were wasted from pressure problems. He then suggested shooting up all the new brass to send back to Jamison for replacement. When Terri said not to shoot those weapons there is something wrong with them, Jason was busy at the desk eating a burrito and stated, "Bullshit, there is nothing wrong with those rifles, just start shooting them further out". Pretty bold statement from someone that had not checked the weapon for a possible problem. Again, at no time were we asked to bring in the weapons and never were they checked other than the go-no go gauge event. When it became evident that nothing was going to happen is when we left. We were sent on our way with one box of Winchester primers and 20 rounds each. Word was relayed that we left happy. We didn't show up for a couple of bullets, rather we wanted what we paid a boatload of money for. A functioning weapon as advertised.

I never demanded any "freebees" at any time. I tried to buy the old brass from you and you politely refused. You told me that you couldn't sell the old brass because of your license. When we picked up the used brass we left $100.00 worth of beer and booze for you and your guys as a thank you, or has that been forgotten. I never once tried to work you or your staff for anything. But I think a $3.00 hat and a $7.00 shirt as a thanks for $30,000.00+ worth of business wouldn't be out of line even if I were to ask. By the way, we didn't take two gunny sacks of brass nor did we back up the truck to the bay to load it. We took a little over 300 brass and had to dispose of quite a bit of it as warned by yourself. You were the one that said it was going to the dump.

This was never about you Dave, heck I like you as a regular Joe, this was about a very high ticket item that is highly promoted for it's performance and the problems I encountered with Chey-Tac. Your acceptance that the rifles shouldn't have left in that condition is enough for me. That does not excuse the treatment received by the company in general. Through all of the mess, you nor Chey-Tac never asked for the weapons. I have documentation from your company apologizing for correspondence that was supposed to be sent to me that never left the office. If you would like, I would be delighted to give you a copy.

My beef became after trying to zero a weapon and going through your break in period. I was out a pretty penny in ammunition. The stuff isn't cheap at $7+ a pop. As you know, your break-in period involves approximately 90 rounds. That is 90 rounds fired and still trying to get a zero at 100 yards. Rough count.......that's about $630+ each. That has since been rectified. The other beef was that your guys were very quick to blame Jamison Intl. as the problem. We got tangled up in the phone that is true. Jamison claimed and rightly so that the problem was not with the brass. Because Jamison was pointed to as the problem, we developed a relationship to find and fix the problem.

I am not going to get into a pissing match about this. The damage is done and you can keep trying to patch a sucking chest wound with cheesecloth. I have learned a very valuable lesson as a consumer. Dave, this was not about you but what happened in your absence. Because of that day things went south very quickly. Again, YOU weren't there. You were given false information about events that day, including my being on the phone. I don't even own a cell phone.

 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems

Agree on the no pissing match. It's gets like any other game with both sides playing to win, trying to get the last word in. People choosing sides. Hurting each other, etc.

OK, I will make this statement and be done with it. It has always been my personal policy to repair to new condition any CheyTac rifle, from any owner, no matter how often it may change hands or whose hands it's in. This at no expense to the current owner. They come back to me after deployments, before deployments, and from guys just wanting a simple checkup. Return shipping is also covered if required. Your rifle is no exception. You and your rifle are welcome at all times, and to voice any concerns or questions. My email address is out there, so feel free to contact me at any time.

Dave
 
Re: For Cheytac 408 owners who are having problems....

Holy shit, 16,000 dollars! Ive never spent anywhere close to that on a car!

If I spent 16,000 dollars on a gun it better come with a shit ton of ammo, and reloading supplies. Hell with all the problems you mentioned it better come with a gunsmith to fix all of its problems, make that a female gunsmith.
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