For LE work - 11 or 8 in upper?

[taseal]

We're getting some M16s through the DRMO program and going to be putting SBR uppers on them. (for patrol)

If you had the option, which length would you go for? If you want to spend the money, you could also get your own suppressor and put it on there as well. (which in my opinion, I wouldn't do)

My personal opinion would be unsuppressed 11 barrel.

or would you just stick with a regular 14.5 inch upper?

 

[tip2oo3]

14.5 for patrol work is my vote.

 

[buggsb]

For most LE applicatons absolutely the 11". Very handy inside buildings and easily deployable from the front seat if necessary. Unless you are relying on them to take really long shots (which the 5.56 doesn't excell at anyway) there is no need for the longer barrel.

 

[BCP]

I'm not LE but I have chrono'd the 7.5" -10.5" and 14.5" and the velocity really seems to drop off from the 10.5. Don't remember the exact numbers from memory but I think that typical 62 grain stuff was around 1800 from the 7.5, 2600 from the 10.5 and 3000 from the 14.5. The 10.5 was also surprisingly accurate out to 200-300 yards.

 

[akrapovic]

14.5, unless you are running cans, then 11.

 

[sierracharlie338]

I went from a 14.5 to a 10.5 and couldnt be happier. I keep it in the front passenger seat behind my patrol bag.

 

[taseal]

Surprised couple people say 14.5...

what can an officer possibly utilize a 14.5 inch barrel for? most shots are within 100 yards. with nothing exceeding 300 (in an very very unlikely situation)

Officers don't even train past 100 yards with a patrol rifle lol.

I actually put that option up there because I was curious how many people would say the regular 14.5

 

[taseal]

I went from a 14.5 to a 10.5 and couldnt be happier. I keep it in the front passenger seat behind my patrol bag.

That's where mine will go. We got a shotgun rack, so that area is taken (and they won't buy dual racks or any other racks) for them. the trunk is nice and secure, but is very hard to reach.

hidden behind the patrol bag is going to be where I will put mine.

 

[Crosshair]

IMO, 10.5" is the minimum realistic use for the 5.56 round. Any shorter and I'd go with 300 blk supersonics. I have an 11.5" bcm and its about as short as I'd like to go just for the sake of hand grip real estate, though I could adapt to a 10.5, but with a hand stop for sure.

 

[Redleg84]

I would go with 10.5 or 11.5 for patrol, with or without a can

 

[tip2oo3]

Surprised couple people say 14.5...

what can an officer possibly utilize a 14.5 inch barrel for? most shots are within 100 yards. with nothing exceeding 300 (in an very very unlikely situation)

Officers don't even train past 100 yards with a patrol rifle lol.

I actually put that option up there because I was curious how many people would say the regular 14.5

Engagement distance isn't a factor for my opinion. Has to do more with weapon reliability. Sure you can get a short barrel to run well when you do proper maintenance but around here I know some guys on patrol that don't give a shit about taking care of their gear. Reliability is #1 factor for me, can't do anything if your rig doesn't run right.

Also for me I've never needed anything shorter than my 16" on patrol. Works for me.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

what reliability issues do you think you'll have with a 10.5" upper? i know a few .gov agencies running em with no issues, i have a little experience with em myself. I have 16" guns, 14.5" guns, 10.5" guns, 12.5" guns. i think the best "middle ground" is the 12.5 personally but the 10.5 is pretty damn accurate and i've shot them out to 400-500 don't count that little guy out.

 

[346ci]

A short 5.56 is a noise maker. Depending on how many your dept. needs, call up LWRC and see if they will sell ya'll some of the new Six8 SBR rifles, chambered in 6.8X43. Those offer a hell of a lot more power than 5.56, use a Pmag and are very accurate. 90gr of Gold Dot going 2450 FPS from a 8.5" bbl.

LWRCI UCIW SIX8 Review - Shotgun News

 

[tip2oo3]

Bigjoe: not saying the short barrels can't be reliable, just pointing out one of the tradeoffs for a shorter barrel is reliability(rifle shooting dirtier quicker as the main example) : most cases it's marginal. But stick a short barrel rifle in the hands of a patrol guy who doesn't clean it, doesn't lube it, etc. and problems may show quicker than the longer barrels. It's more of an argument against reducing operator incompetence than a comparison of reliability between the weapons themselves. Only the op knows the needs of his dept. and the ability of his guys to keep their weapons maintained and operational.

I agree on the 12.5's I think they are a pretty good compromise: and I wouldn't even consider the 8in. For anything patrol related.

 

[taseal]

Another caliber isn't an option. There is already a bunch of 5.56 rifles, and they don't want to add more calibers to the mix.

I tried to fight the 300 BLK battle, but they wouldn't have it.

There is 25 coming. not enough to get a decent discount from anywhere.

They do get very loud, but if regular patrol is shooting his AR15, I don't think tactical noise is going to be a problem. and the officers can get their own can if they want. dept is not going to spend money on a can. lol

I've handled the diablo from PWS and I would need a hand stop for sure. the MK110 was perfect though.

 

[taseal]

Bigjoe: not saying the short barrels can't be reliable, just pointing out one of the tradeoffs for a shorter barrel is reliability(rifle shooting dirtier quicker as the main example) : most cases it's marginal. But stick a short barrel rifle in the hands of a patrol guy who doesn't clean it, doesn't lube it, etc. and problems may show quicker than the longer barrels. It's more of an argument against reducing operator incompetence than a comparison of reliability between the weapons themselves. Only the op knows the needs of his dept. and the ability of his guys to keep their weapons maintained and operational.

I agree on the 12.5's I think they are a pretty good compromise: and I wouldn't even consider the 8in. For anything patrol related.

I hear ya. but with the very little shooting, and combination of a reliable manufacturer, I don't think this will be an issue.

I've been trying to get the PWS uppers.... I don't think a SBR made from them will have any issues. Even if they go with something else, I might just spend the money and get one.

No complaints if they are getting me the full auto lower. lol

 

[kimberseries1]

I would go with 10.5 or 11.5 for patrol, with or without a can

I would stick with 11.5". From all the research I did before buying, 11.5" was the most reliable, consistantly. But if your clearing rooms, mbe sure everyone else has earpro......good excuse for a can right there, that puppy will bark.

 

[Capt Academy]

I would go 14.5 to 16 for patrol and 12" for UC work.

 

[taseal]

I would stick with 11.5". From all the research I did before buying, 11.5" was the most reliable, consistantly. But if your clearing rooms, mbe sure everyone else has earpro......good excuse for a can right there, that puppy will bark.

I have no problem putting a can on mine, but I don't know about having to give up the rifle with the can to evidence when I use it in a shooting. I won't see her for a while. and I doubt they're going to let me remove the can lol

 

[Delta4-3]

10.5" is no less reliable. Do you think socom would use them if they were? I have had a 10.5" for several years and a lot of rounds with no issues. My personal favorite is 12" with a mini can.

 

[BCP]

only thing I've heard with a 10.5 is that the gas port may need to be opened up to get them running right. that is my next project too bad I'm in Cali so it has to be a neutered pistol build instead of an SBR.

 

[LtDan]

11.5
Even with a full size patrol vehicle with an overhead mount, the longer barrels are a PITA. I drive a marked Tahoe with a dual vertical shotgun/ar mount between the seats and a shorter barrel makes deployment faster and easier.

 

[Zebra644]

We have a universal mount that we can remove the shotguns and replace with a AR. It is an absolute PITA as LtDan stated to take a 16"carbine in and out of a mount inside a cruiser even with the stock totally collapsed. If your in a shoot house your gonna feel the blast regardless and its obviously going to be louder, but if you are putting a can on it that will help a lot. I dont know what your departments policy is, on the deployment of an AR? We responded to a call in a subdivision not to long ago where a person was discharging a shot gun at his adult son over a domestic dispute. The rounds were Being shot in the ground if I remember correctly. the The new guys pulled out shotguns with buck shot, I went to the AR. Think about that shot gun vs shotgun? anyway engagement would have been 75-100 yds. I am sure that a 11.5 inch with proper shot placement and ammo type would do fine.

 

[thrusty]

14.5" for patrol. 10-11in, preferably suppressed, for CQ work.

 

[Strykervet]

14.5 for 5.56 definitely: more velocity and you can get small suppressors for 'em to keep length down. Any shorter and they just lose too much velocity to do what they were intended to do.

If I could have SBR's here, I'd go with one in .300BLK. I have one in 16", and it is the tits compared to 5.56 300m and under. More versatile too, and super quiet with subs.

 

[AvsFan]

I voted for a 14.5" especially for patrol work. If you were on a swat team or, tactical unit then a 10"-11" would serve you better for CQB room breaching & clearing work. My friend is on a tactical unit and they utilize the short barrel rifles. When he was working patrol they had anywhere from 14.5" to full 20" AR's in the units. I believe the 14.5" is the best tool option for the job of patrol.

my $0.02

AvsFan

 

[taseal]

Keep'em coming guys.

There is no policy on this stuff yet, the new chief is changing all the patrol rifle stuff, and I'm working with the firearms inst on this matter... They know my expertise and taking that into consideration.

In all honesty, most guys will probably be stuck with the M16 uppers when they come in (as a whole rifle) and few people will get blessed with SBRs, or if you slap your own SBR on it.

 

[cop1211]

11.5 short, handy, just as reliable as the 14.5, or 16 inch.

 

[Ghillie Zen]

10.5 for this purpose. Why go longer for under 300yds? It's reliable and accurate for the required range. This length barrel has been extensively proven in combat, plus it meets the minimum requirements for most suppressor warranties. IMHO, no need to go longer for LE.

 

[Unknown]

I used to own an 11 inch barreled M16, and the muzzle blast was simply horrendous! Suppressed, it wasn't too bad, but without a suppressor, the fireball out of the muzzle with a standard birdcage flash suppressor was truly impressive. I would go along with the 14.5-16 inch barrel recommendation.

At night, the fireball from the short barrel would ruin your night vision if you use a short barrel. At night, I would get a fireball about 2 feet long by 10-12 inches in diameter with the 11 inch barrel...not good if you value night vision.

 

[marduk185]

sorry but for the intended purpose yall are being tards. the op and his department should be looking at 7.5" supressed. my reasons are numerous but heres the hipoints...1) supressed a 7.7 is gonna put you around m4 length anyway but now you arent def and blinded by fireball. 2) at typical police contact distances these are very accurate. c) remove the supressor and keep it in a gymbag, cuz hey, if ya didnt want them short why sbr at all? and finally, IV) if i ever sbr a pistol itll be how i roll.

 

[Unknown]

A suppressor sure solved my issues. I was going to get rid of my rifle because of the blast, then a buddy suggested a suppressor. With my suppressor mounted on a rifle with an A2 stock, my overall length was about 2 inches shorter. I used an older model Optima suppressor that is about 8-10 inches long.

 

[Delta4-3]

sorry but for the intended purpose yall are being tards. the op and his department should be looking at 7.5" supressed. my reasons are numerous but heres the hipoints...1) supressed a 7.7 is gonna put you around m4 length anyway but now you arent def and blinded by fireball. 2) at typical police contact distances these are very accurate. c) remove the supressor and keep it in a gymbag, cuz hey, if ya didnt want them short why sbr at all? and finally, IV) if i ever sbr a pistol itll be how i roll.

We are being tards? Have you ever used any weapon in a no-shit scenario? A lot of people in this thread have. 7.7"ers have reliability issues, and no manufacturer recommends putting a can on a barrel that short.the training curve is a lot higher on a setup that short, and most departments rarely train at all, let alone enough to be adequate with a barrel that short.

 

[muggs13]

You must check the new sig 7' piston uppers. They run like a top suppressed and on burst/auto connected to a standard AR lower. But the only sell them to the agency at this time.

 

[taseal]

Keep them coming guys! Might even use this statistic for my proposal

 

[taseal]

Trying to decide between LMT 10.5 mk18 uppers or the BCM 11.5 uppers....

I just realized we can use the BCGs and CHs from the M16 uppers.

 

[Turk]

Never understood the logic of using a shorter barrel w/ less mv and having to put a suppressor on it to overcome the flash and sound. Shorter one's can be made to work and definitely have the kool factor, but are harder on the gun and are generally less reliable unless they are "worked"! If you want to pretend you were in on the bin laden raid go for it!

 

[TexasGunTrustLawyer]

I am amazed at all the people making recommendations without asking the most important question.

What ammo will you use?

Are you limited to issue ammo?

What is the typical engagement distance! Most likely 50 yes or less, max to 100 for LE

Barrel length/velocity/target engagement Distance is what drives the answer. Remember, mission dictates the gear.

If the ammo doesn't generate enough velocity to get the bullet up to the velocity at which it provides the designed terminal performance then you may as well use a .22.

The answer to your question depends on the type of ammunition you will be using.

The normally issued fragmenting rounds do not fragment from a 8" barrel.

The Best option currently available for reliable terminal ballistics out of a 8", 5.56 x 45mm barrel is the black hills 50gr. Barnes TSX.