Form 1, Form 4, SBR's

[Ape_Factory]

Let's just bypass the whole clusterfuck concerning pistol braces and the new ATF position on them. This isn't about that.

It's my undestanding...
-If I purchase a complete SBR from an FFL, it's a Form 4 and the long wait that comes with it. I guess people choose this route when they can't get what they want by building it themselves or it's not available in a pistol version.

-If I purchase a complete pistol from an FFL, I can use a Form 1 to convert it to an SBR and then use a stock, correct? I've done two Form 1 lowers, waiting on approval for the second but the first was GTG in less than two months. Just seems sort of strange. Not sure why any manufacturer would even offer an SBR when it's easier to convert a pistol (for now anyways).

Looking at a new complete "rifle" I can't build myself as the parts are unobtanium and they do offer it in both SBR and pistol form. Want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding something. I'd much prefer a two month over an 7-8 month wait.

 

[_Windrider_]

Yes. The form 4 is usually used when transferring from one owner to another, like me to you. Most dealers go the pistol route and avoid the NFA stuff. Then you file the form 1 if you so choose. But, last I heard even form 1’s are taking months now but at least you have the pistol to use in the meantime unlike the form 4.

 

[Ape_Factory]

That was sort of my thinking. I'd at least be able to use it while I wait but also felt a bit too good to be true at the same time. My local range lets you shoot a suppressor you've bought through them but isn't out of jail yet. Not sure I'd want to do that with a rifle.

To bring the new ruling back in, it sounds like I won't be able to register a pistol to my trust once the new rule is published, assuming any of it actually holds up.

 

[buffalowinter]

Year for form 4, months for form 1. I'm waiting on both.

 

[hafejd30]

You have it correct

I’m not sure if it’s just the form 4’s going into a pile with all the can purchases or what. But my form 1’s both took about 25 days. My 4’s were 6, 9 and 13 months

 

[mountaineer178]

i just received my stamp for an eform 1. less than 30 days. mailed fingerprint cards on 12/29 and received said stamp today.

 

[roostercogburn98]

A factory made sbr will be engraved and finished when you get it, a form one will require you to have it engraved and refinished if required.

A lot of people think going the form 1 route takes away from any value since it is permanently engraved with the original owner/trust name.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Form 1 - Tax paid manufacture
Form 2 - Tax exempt manufacture
Form 3 - Tax exempt transfer
From 4 - Tax paid transfer

 

[LSUbeatUby40]

i just received my stamp for an eform 1. less than 30 days. mailed fingerprint cards on 12/29 and received said stamp today.

This is my sheer ignorance, but why did you mail fingerprint cards while doing eForms? Did you do your own eForm or through silencershop full auto?

 

[mountaineer178]

i filed my own eForm 1 and i previously purchased fingerprint cards from silencershop (i had fingerprints enrolled with them from their kiosk). i wasn't sure how to do the digital upload and figured it was easier to just ship the prints via FedEx...

 

[strikeeagle1]

form 1 route takes away from any value since it is permanently engraved with the original owner/trust name.

Please cite where there exists a requirement for Form 1 to have the receiver engraved with owner / trust name ? Thanks.
When the eForm 1 is submitted a photo of the receiver markings / model # / serial # etc. is reviewed and the application approved by the BATFE. Done.

The OP is not indicating he is manufacturing the receiver himself, rather just cobbling together a receiver with a short barrel.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Please cite where there exists a requirement for Form 1 to have the receiver engraved with owner / trust name ? Thanks.
When the eForm 1 is submitted a photo of the receiver markings / model # / serial # etc. is reviewed and the application approved by the BATFE. Done.

The OP is not indicating he is manufacturing the receiver himself, rather just cobbling together a receiver with a short barrel.


View attachment 8058662

A Form 1 is an application to make a firearm. In this case an SBR. If you read block H of a form 1, it states what iou are required to place on said item when you convert it. It doesn’t matter if you buy a brand new lower receiver, the minute you decide to sbr it, you become the “new manufacturer”.

 

[houndog]

I'm still trying to figure this all out, but I thought I read something that if you are registering an AR with a pistol brace, you were not required to engrave your receiver.

Have also been trying to do an electronic filing and keep getting a message that I cannot connect to ATF sight. Really don't want to do a paper one and wait 1 year for an approval.

 

[Spooky68]

I'm still trying to figure this all out, but I thought I read something that if you are registering an AR with a pistol brace, you were not required to engrave your receiver.

Have also been trying to do an electronic filing and keep getting a message that I cannot connect to ATF sight. Really don't want to do a paper one and wait 1 year for an approval.

I was having the same problems today. I cleared out the browser history and deleted all cookies and then it connected just fine.

 

[mountaineer178]

MARKINGS 27.

Once the firearm is registered, am I required to mark the firearm since I manufactured a short-barreled rifle (SBR)?

• If the SBR equipped with a “stabilizing brace” is registered within the 120-day tax forbearance period, the possessor is allowed to adopt the markings on the firearm. The maker’s marking exception is only applicable to firearms that are registered pursuant to the final rule. If the firearm is a personally made firearm, the possessor must mark in accordance with 27 CFR 478.92 & 479.102 prior to submitting the E-Form 1.

source: https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regul...aqfinalrule2021r-08f-updated12523pdf/download

 

[ZY100]

Just a few key points that may be helpful. Love, hate or ignore the new rule....there is a lot of new, confusing and changing data. (Case in point, see #1, they use effective and published interchangeably, they are not the same thing.)

Just FYI.

1. (From q and a from BATF FAQ)IF MY SBR IS MADE AFTER THE DATE OF PUBLICATION OF THE FINAL RULE, CAN I STILL REGISTER IT
AS AN SBR FOR FREE DURING THE TAX FORBEARANCE PERIOD?
• No. The registration options available to a possessor of such firearm applies to those possessed
on the effective date of the final rule.

2. Eforms Form 1 does not require a photo of the firearms...not sure where this keeps coming from. You do need a photo of the "manufactures markings". As discussed, in the past, this was additional marking by the person making the SBR (i.e you or your trust, city and state) in addition to the original manufacture (could be on receiver, barrel, mag well, etc). For the "Pistol to SBR" Eform, the manufactures marks ALONE is acceptable. This is a change.

3. Effective date is EDIT (is the published date). The published date is still TBD as it has not been published to the federal register. Admin process, takes weeks....maybe more?

4. If you want to register the "pistol to SBR" in your trust (as opposed to an individual) they need to be in your trust (typically your Sched A) and notarized prior to the published date.

CAN I REGISTER MY FIREARM WITH A “STABILIZING BRACE” TO MY TRUST?
• Yes, however, the firearm would have needed to be owned by the trust prior to the date the
final rule is published in the Federal Register. Evidence that the firearms was in trust should be
provided with the registration document.

Decent related resources section a page down: https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/factoring-criteria-firearms-attached-stabilizing-braces

To see if it is actually published: https://www.nationalguntrusts.com/b...og/update-tax-stamp-applications-with-a-trust

ZY

 

[1911hombre]

Just a few key points that may be helpful. Love, hate or ignore the new rule....there is a lot of new, confusing and changing data. (Case in point, see #1, they use effective and published interchangeably, they are not the same thing.)

Just FYI.

1. IF MY SBR IS MADE AFTER THE DATE OF PUBLICATION OF THE FINAL RULE, CAN I STILL REGISTER IT
AS AN SBR FOR FREE DURING THE TAX FORBEARANCE PERIOD?
• No. The registration options available to a possessor of such firearm applies to those possessed
on the effective date of the final rule.

2. Eforms Form 1 does not require a photo of the firearms...not sure where this keeps coming from. You do need a photo of the "manufactures markings". As discussed, in the past, this was additional marking by the person making the SBR (i.e you or your trust, city and state) in addition to the original manufacture (could be on receiver, barrel, mag well, etc). For the "Pistol to SBR" Eform, the manufactures marks ALONE is acceptable. This is a change.

3. Effective date is 13 Jan 23. The published date is still TBD as it has not been published to the federal register. Admin process, takes weeks....maybe more?

4. If you want to register the "pistol to SBR" in your trust (as opposed to an individual) they need to be in your trust (typically your Sched A) and notarized prior to the published date.

CAN I REGISTER MY FIREARM WITH A “STABILIZING BRACE” TO MY TRUST?
• Yes, however, the firearm would have needed to be owned by the trust prior to the date the
final rule is published in the Federal Register. Evidence that the firearms was in trust should be
provided with the registration document.

Decent related resources section a page down: https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/factoring-criteria-firearms-attached-stabilizing-braces

To see if it is actually published: https://www.nationalguntrusts.com/b...og/update-tax-stamp-applications-with-a-trust

ZY

1: Effective date IS date of publication in the Federal Register.
2: Form 1 has never required a photo of your engraving; you don't engrave until approved.
3: NOPE
4: Schedule A is only for Title II firearms. Title I can be listed on a seperate schedule; you could call it "Schedule B" . At least that's how my trust is set up.

 

[ZY100]

Guys,

Not trying to get into a back and forth on this…should probably just delete the post. But…

1. It appears effective and published date are the same date…was told and understood differently. And for clarity the question and answers is from the BATF FAQ.

2. I never said an “standard” form 1 required a photo. A few threads on SH and other places have stated you had to send a photo of the firearm in—and it was a potential for self incrimination of an “illegal SBR”. Clarifying a photo of the firearm for the “pistol to SBR” eform 1 is only of the engraving. Once this “pistol to SBR” eform 1 is approved you DO NOT need to get additional engraving. Yes this is almost opposite of a “normal” SBR Form 1.

3. See my #1.

4. That is your trust. Mine is not like that. Nor does it need to be.

ZY out.

 

[strikeeagle1]

An individual that "creates" a firearm is the "Maker" in BATFE speak. Such a Maker has to engrave the receiver as specified in the Rulings. When the common citizen "individual" is only "modifying" and existing firearm (e.g. swapping out to less than 16" rifle barrel or converting a mfg. pistol by fitment with a shoulder stock to an SBR) one does not need to engrave anything.

 

[OLD TANTO]

Did a few form 1 sbr's last year and was sot back in the 80-90's, although i may be rusty. My understanding on the engraving thing was that you do not HAVE to engrave, but when you croak the firearm is INSTANTLY illegal (without a trust anyway). Not a good thing for your inheriter. Not having the engraving likely increases your odds of potential inspection issues. Not to seem paranoid, but say you have a car accident on the way to the range and did or did not forget your Paperwork and ATF gets their hands on your best loaded sbr? Engraving now is local, cheap and way better than the old letter punches - Argh! Corrections welcome.

 

[30calDeath]

A Form 1 is an application to make a firearm. In this case an SBR. If you read block H of a form 1, it states what iou are required to place on said item when you convert it. It doesn’t matter if you buy a brand new lower receiver, the minute you decide to sbr it, you become the “new manufacturer”.

Correct, who ever was the previous manufacturer, it doesn't matter anymore. The person now doing the form1 is now considered the manufacturer per gAyTF

 

[Digetydog]

Let's just bypass the whole clusterfuck concerning pistol braces and the new ATF position on them. This isn't about that.

It's my undestanding...
-If I purchase a complete SBR from an FFL, it's a Form 4 and the long wait that comes with it. I guess people choose this route when they can't get what they want by building it themselves or it's not available in a pistol version.

-If I purchase a complete pistol from an FFL, I can use a Form 1 to convert it to an SBR and then use a stock, correct? I've done two Form 1 lowers, waiting on approval for the second but the first was GTG in less than two months. Just seems sort of strange. Not sure why any manufacturer would even offer an SBR when it's easier to convert a pistol (for now anyways).

Looking at a new complete "rifle" I can't build myself as the parts are unobtanium and they do offer it in both SBR and pistol form. Want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding something. I'd much prefer a two month over an 7-8 month wait.

NO! To the bold part. The amnesty program is limited to pistols which were made PRIOR TO the new "ruling."

I just completed my Form 1 this morning. As part of the process, I had to certify that I had the pistol prior to ... which was convenient for me because it was true. (I hated my brace and look forward to having a real stock on it)

If you buy a complete pistol now, the FFL will have to send in a form to the ATF as part of the gun purchase which will prove your later certification for the SBR stamp to be false. I am not sure the penalty for lying on the form, but a felony conviction means - no more guns.

If I was an anti gunner ATF Director looking to reduce gun ownership, I would have my IT team run a check of SBR amnesty applications vs recent gun purchase. Then, I would send the cases to an anti #2A prosecutor who would prosecute every person who lied on the form. The prosecutor has a slam dunk case.

If I had not previously had a braced AR pistol, I would wait to see how the court challenges turn out. I think the brace "ruling" will be tossed out by the courts.

 

[Digetydog]

Did a few form 1 sbr's last year and was sot back in the 80-90's, although i may be rusty. My understanding on the engraving thing was that you do not HAVE to engrave, but when you croak the firearm is INSTANTLY illegal (without a trust anyway). Not a good thing for your inheriter. Not having the engraving likely increases your odds of potential inspection issues. Not to seem paranoid, but say you have a car accident on the way to the range and did or did not forget your Paperwork and ATF gets their hands on your best loaded sbr? Engraving now is local, cheap and way better than the old letter punches - Argh! Corrections welcome.

Thankfully, I built my pistol on an inexpensive PSA lower. If it doesn't get handed down, I am fine with that.

I am kicking myself for not having had a trust setup previously. I had been using Silence Shop 1 shot trusts for my purchases.

 

[Ape_Factory]

NO! To the bold part. The amnesty program is limited to pistols which were made PRIOR TO the new "ruling."

I just completed my Form 1 this morning. As part of the process, I had to certify that I had the pistol prior to ... which was convenient for me because it was true. (I hated my brace and look forward to having a real stock on it)

If you buy a complete pistol now, the FFL will have to send in a form to the ATF as part of the gun purchase which will prove your later certification for the SBR stamp to be false. I am not sure the penalty for lying on the form, but a felony conviction means - no more guns.

If I was an anti gunner ATF Director looking to reduce gun ownership, I would have my IT team run a check of SBR amnesty applications vs recent gun purchase. Then, I would send the cases to an anti #2A prosecutor who would prosecute every person who lied on the form. The prosecutor has a slam dunk case.

If I had not previously had a braced AR pistol, I would wait to see how the court challenges turn out. I think the brace "ruling" will be tossed out by the courts.

That's only if your pistol originally had a brace. My gun never had a brace and isn't supplied with one from the factory. So I never get asked that question because I'm using a standard Form 1 and paying the $200 tax stamp, not getting the freebie. And I believe FFL's can't even send guns with pistol braces to another FFL at this point. I think they're supposed to notify the ATF and then turn the gun over or something like that.

I know my local range/gun store has removed braces from all their in-store pistols as well.

 

[OLD TANTO]

"If I was an anti gunner ATF Director looking to reduce gun ownership, I would have my IT team run a check of SBR amnesty applications vs recent gun purchase. Then, I would send the cases to an anti #2A prosecutor who would prosecute every person who lied on the form. The prosecutor has a slam dunk case."

The Fed ATF who i assume will be doing this amnesty paperwork should not have any way to access local pistol sales. The background checks are not SUPPOSED to go to the feds. Perhaps i'm nieve now, but thats the way it used to be. The feds can follow the pistols thru the distributors to the retailer, but they cannot see the dealers books to see where the pistol was sold (unless it shows up in a crime of course). However when the dealer goes out of business and he turns his books in, those records used to be kept in a warehouse, not a database. I do believe that they are now putting those records in a database which is against the written law. So think about buying from a large dealer that is not likely to go out of business. Bottom line the ATF doesn't know who's got what, unless of course we are forced to go the NFA route which is the current state. Now if all the background checks were 'leaked"to the ATF, they would have a defacto list of all gun owners since the checks came about. Thats been THE big worry IMO. So all is not lost, yet. Please correct if desired. Happy shooting!

 

[FuhQ]

After talking with Silencer Shop yesterday about the amnesty eForm 1's (free stamp) I don't see where it's a bad thing...For those of us who were already wanting to SBR a lower, and are already heavily invested in the NFA game. The reason being, you don't have to send in any pictures of the gun itself...Just of the markings and serial number on the receiver. These amnesty stamps DO NOT require any extra engraving on the gun after your approved Form 1 (according to Chase @ Silencer Shop).

Also, once you get it approved, bye bye brace, and you can put a REAL stock on it.

So, basically, you don't have to incriminate yourself by sending them a picture of your braced gun, just a picture of the receiver markings showing the caliber, make, model, and original S/N. And you can get a free stamp on a gun you planned on SBR'ing to begin with. So, basically, you can get a bunch of free Form 1 SBR stamps, and you don't have to engrave anything on them afterwards. From my understanding, as verified by Chase @ Silencer Shop.

Someone might want to find out 100%, but this was what I was guaranteed.

If this is the case, I might end up registering a few lowers I was planning on SBR'ing anyway... But now I won't have to pay $200 as I pass GO.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

So, basically, you don't have to incriminate yourself by sending them a picture of your braced gun, just a picture of the receiver markings showing the caliber, make, model, and original S/N.

The amnesty paperwork is self incrimination. The ATF literally said braced pistols have always been unregistered SBR/SBS and by signing the forms you're personally swearing to the fact you have one. Just wait until state DA's ask the ATF for the corresponding lists for their state and then start rolling up people that wanted to save $200. The ATF may be saying they won't charge people for unregistered SBR's but states sure as hell aren't.

I wouldn't go taking legal advice from some person at Silencer Shop.

 

[FuhQ]

The amnesty paperwork is self incrimination. The ATF literally said braced pistols have always been unregistered SBR/SBS and by signing the forms you're personally swearing to the fact you have one. Just wait until state DA's ask the ATF for the corresponding lists for their state and then start rolling up people that wanted to save $200. The ATF may be saying they won't charge people for unregistered SBR's but states sure as hell aren't.

I wouldn't go taking legal advice from some person at Silencer Shop.

From the way it’s made to sound, it’s the same exact Form 1 as normal, the only thing they’re making you do different is just selecting whether or not you think it qualifies for a free stamp or not. Other than that, it appears to be the same regular SBR Form 1 paperwork…

They posted a video about it the other day on YouTube.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

From the way it’s made to sound, it’s the same exact Form 1 as normal, the only thing they’re making you do different is just selecting whether or not you think it qualifies for a free stamp or not. Other than that, it appears to be the same regular SBR Form 1 paperwork…

They posted a video about it the other day on YouTube.

You have to include a picture of the receiver and you don't have to engrave it, that isn't the same exact F1. There is, again, literally a special application for the amnesty F1. I don't care what Silencer Shop has to say, they are guessing.

 

[FuhQ]

You have to include a picture of the receiver and you don't have to engrave it, that isn't the same exact F1. There is, again, literally a special application for the amnesty F1. I don't care what Silencer Shop has to say, they are guessing.

Alrighty then, I don’t know who’s right or who’s wrong, but I’d sure like to see it proven one way or the other. Maybe because of the eForms software though Silencer Shop, things can be done differently, kind of like how they were allowed to do digital fingerprints before anyone else? @Silencer Shop can y’all give us some answers…

And the picture of the receiver, is ONLY of the factory engravings, not of the whole receiver, or of any other parts of the weapon.

 

[AMGtuned]

Alrighty then, I don’t know who’s right or who’s wrong, but I’d sure like to see it proven one way or the other. Maybe because of the eForms software though Silencer Shop, things can be done differently, kind of like how they were allowed to do digital fingerprints before anyone else? @Silencer Shop can y’all give us some answers…

And the picture of the receiver, is ONLY of the factory engravings, not of the whole receiver, or of any other parts of the weapon.

When this rule gets tossed, and it will; the government will have a list of folks admitting to building/buying an illegal SBR.

The amnesty stamps are coming back listed as "conditional" or something of that nature, and there is no stamp present on the form upon approval. As there is with any other F1 procedure.

Personally I think this is a fucking mess. And if it sticks, it could essentially put a stop to NFA transfers without banning anything. The idiots that process these applications can barely handle the 50k a year that they manage to squeak out. Imagine when that application number is in the millions, for MuH fWee StaMp...... you'll be YEARS waiting for a transfer

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Ultimately everyone has to decide what's best for themselves. I don't think admitting to a felony is worth saving $200. This may be the avenue to attack the entire NFA. It's probably best to wait and see how it all shakes out.

Also, I've heard it said (I don't know if it is true) that amnesty SBR/SBS F1's will have their own process and won't go through the normal NFA queue.

 

[Namekagon]

Ultimately everyone has to decide what's best for themselves. I don't think admitting to a felony is worth saving $200. This may be the avenue to attack the entire NFA. It's probably best to wait and see how it all shakes out.

Also, I've heard it said (I don't know if it is true) that amnesty SBR/SBS F1's will have their own process and won't go through the normal NFA queue.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't understand how going for the free SBR stamp is necessarily an admission of committing a crime.

On the day the rule was published, it declared that any AR-pistols with braces on them were now SBR's, meaning they were illegal. ATF in the same rule gave people 120 days to come into compliance by registering those guns. However, those guns are only illegal and need registration if they continue to wear the brace, right? And are no more illegal with a stock on one right now than it is with the brace on it, from my understanding. They are now SBR's, period.

But I took my brace off before the rule took effect. So my pistol was never illegal, right? Therefore, I should be able to go through the process and register it without reassembling it until I get approved, and never be in possession of something illegal. Now if someone took a picture of the whole pistol, with a brace on it and sent that for the marking photo for the application, that I agree could create some problems if the states decide to be assholes.

Am I wrong about any of this?

 

[FuhQ]

When this rule gets tossed, and it will; the government will have a list of folks admitting to building/buying an illegal SBR.

The amnesty stamps are coming back listed as "conditional" or something of that nature, and there is no stamp present on the form upon approval. As there is with any other F1 procedure.

Personally I think this is a fucking mess. And if it sticks, it could essentially put a stop to NFA transfers without banning anything. The idiots that process these applications can barely handle the 50k a year that they manage to squeak out. Imagine when that application number is in the millions, for MuH fWee StaMp...... you'll be YEARS waiting for a transfer

See, none of that info has been put out there, about the no stamp on the approved Forms, and all that stuff. Makes sense that they would pull some shit like that, they are the most corrupt branch of government next to the current administration... I don't think it will stick, and I do hope that this triggers the entire abolishment of the NFA. But I'm not holding my breath. The Supreme Court has let us down plenty of times before, when they had the chance to reign in the ATF over the years...

 

[mrtoyz]

When this rule gets tossed, and it will; the government will have a list of folks admitting to building/buying an illegal SBR.

The amnesty stamps are coming back listed as "conditional" or something of that nature, and there is no stamp present on the form upon approval. As there is with any other F1 procedure.

Personally I think this is a fucking mess. And if it sticks, it could essentially put a stop to NFA transfers without banning anything. The idiots that process these applications can barely handle the 50k a year that they manage to squeak out. Imagine when that application number is in the millions, for MuH fWee StaMp...... you'll be YEARS waiting for a transfer

I’m not going to do any paperwork until I see how this shakes out. While completely agree this is a fucking mess, I’m confused about a few things I keep hearing.
How are are we all felons over night with this BS rule? To come into compliance simply remove the brace. Not a felon.
If you choose to do the F1 free stamp they have said they consider the paperwork from the filing enough to be in compliance. If that’s the case, who cares how long it takes to get a stamp or how long a F1 to F4(to trust) takes, you’re already in compliance. Now they do make you pay the $200 for the F1 to F4 though. Lol
I would like to know why the hell the made the clause that you had to have pistols listed on your trust ,non NFA, items prior to 1/31/23. IMO its because they will make all of the individual filing guns illegal the moment you die. Total BS. No reason I can see not to allow us to out these in trusts as we want other than a plan to eliminate these guns after a couple generations.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't understand how going for the free SBR stamp is necessarily an admission of committing a crime.

On the day the rule was published, it declared that any AR-pistols with braces on them were now SBR's, meaning they were illegal. ATF in the same rule gave people 120 days to come into compliance by registering those guns. However, those guns are only illegal and need registration if they continue to wear the brace, right? And are no more illegal with a stock on one right now than it is with the brace on it, from my understanding. They are now SBR's, period.

But I took my brace off before the rule took effect. So my pistol was never illegal, right? Therefore, I should be able to go through the process and register it without reassembling it until I get approved, and never be in possession of something illegal. Now if someone took a picture of the whole pistol, with a brace on it and sent that for the marking photo for the application, that I agree could create some problems if the states decide to be assholes.

Am I wrong about any of this?

You answered your own question, if you take the brace off you don't have an unregistered SBR and it doesn't qualify for the amnesty tax exempt registration.

 

[Namekagon]

I’m not going to do any paperwork until I see how this shakes out. While completely agree this is a fucking mess, I’m confused about a few things I keep hearing.
How are are we all felons over night with this BS rule? To come into compliance simply remove the brace. Not a felon.
If you choose to do the F1 free stamp they have said they consider the paperwork from the filing enough to be in compliance. If that’s the case, who cares how long it takes to get a stamp or how long a F1 to F4(to trust) takes, you’re already in compliance. Now they do make you pay the $200 for the F1 to F4 though. Lol
I would like to know why the hell the made the clause that you had to have pistols listed on your trust ,non NFA, items prior to 1/31/23. IMO its because they will make all of the individual filing guns illegal the moment you die. Total BS. No reason I can see not to allow us to out these in trusts as we want other than a plan to eliminate these guns after a couple generations.

It’s not that they won’t allow them in trusts, it’s that they had to be owned by the owner before the rule took effect. For a trust, that means being owned by the trust before the rule. Same for individuals…had to own it before the rule took effect. That was simply to limit the availability of the grace period stamps to already owned guns. Otherwise guys would run out and buy 5 lowers tomorrow and SBR them without paying $200 each.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I’m not going to do any paperwork until I see how this shakes out. While completely agree this is a fucking mess, I’m confused about a few things I keep hearing.
How are are we all felons over night with this BS rule? To come into compliance simply remove the brace. Not a felon.
If you choose to do the F1 free stamp they have said they consider the paperwork from the filing enough to be in compliance. If that’s the case, who cares how long it takes to get a stamp or how long a F1 to F4(to trust) takes, you’re already in compliance. Now they do make you pay the $200 for the F1 to F4 though. Lol
I would like to know why the hell the made the clause that you had to have pistols listed on your trust ,non NFA, items prior to 1/31/23. IMO its because they will make all of the individual filing guns illegal the moment you die. Total BS. No reason I can see not to allow us to out these in trusts as we want other than a plan to eliminate these guns after a couple generations.

Who would you be in compliance with? In Texas, all NFA items are illegal and the only defense is an approved registration. There's a bunch of states with the same NFA verbage

 

[Namekagon]

You answered your own question, if you take the brace off you don't have an unregistered SBR and it doesn't qualify for the amnesty tax exempt registration.

Do they require you to prove it’s a braced gun in the form 1 process? If that’s the case no one can do this on a bare lower they already owned?

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Do they require you to prove it’s a braced gun in the form 1 process? If that’s the case no one can do this on a bare lower they already owned?

They require you to sign the form which swears you are telling the truth. I attached the amnesty F1, go read it. If it's a bare receiver it doesn't qualify and you're perjuring yourself.

 

[AMGtuned]

My guess is getting their hands on all the 4473 forms that were filed. Somehow . Then they'll just compare lists and see who's dog to go knock off.

If there is a compiled list of 4473, then I'm sure removing the brace would be no different than all these other cease and desist type things. Constructive intent. All that.

Obligatory IANAL; I just try and do my part, and follow the F1 world quite a bit.

 

[mrtoyz]

They require you to sign the form which swears you are telling the truth. I attached the amnesty F1, go read it. If it's a bare receiver it doesn't qualify and you're perjuring yourself.

Ah. That makes sense

 

[Digetydog]

After talking with Silencer Shop yesterday about the amnesty eForm 1's (free stamp) I don't see where it's a bad thing...For those of us who were already wanting to SBR a lower, and are already heavily invested in the NFA game. The reason being, you don't have to send in any pictures of the gun itself...Just of the markings and serial number on the receiver. These amnesty stamps DO NOT require any extra engraving on the gun after your approved Form 1 (according to Chase @ Silencer Shop).

Also, once you get it approved, bye bye brace, and you can put a REAL stock on it.

So, basically, you don't have to incriminate yourself by sending them a picture of your braced gun, just a picture of the receiver markings showing the caliber, make, model, and original S/N. And you can get a free stamp on a gun you planned on SBR'ing to begin with. So, basically, you can get a bunch of free Form 1 SBR stamps, and you don't have to engrave anything on them afterwards. From my understanding, as verified by Chase @ Silencer Shop.

Someone might want to find out 100%, but this was what I was guaranteed.

If this is the case, I might end up registering a few lowers I was planning on SBR'ing anyway... But now I won't have to pay $200 as I pass GO.

Since they have all my information for my 4 cans, they definitely know who I am. Why worry about another item?

After I pass, my SBR is going to the bottom of Corpus Christi Bay. Basically, the only "SBR" parts are the barrel and the lower. Neither of which are high dollar parts.

 

[Digetydog]

They require you to sign the form which swears you are telling the truth. I attached the amnesty F1, go read it. If it's a bare receiver it doesn't qualify and you're perjuring yourself.

You are also guilty of wire fraud if you lie on the form.

 

[Silencer Shop]

Alrighty then, I don’t know who’s right or who’s wrong, but I’d sure like to see it proven one way or the other. Maybe because of the eForms software though Silencer Shop, things can be done differently, kind of like how they were allowed to do digital fingerprints before anyone else? @Silencer Shop can y’all give us some answers…

And the picture of the receiver, is ONLY of the factory engravings, not of the whole receiver, or of any other parts of the weapon.

We only ask for a photo of the engravings, not of the firearm or its configuration. And the photo is not required, we will submit the form without any photos if you wish, but there have been reports of forms being denied as there is no way to verify the model and serial numbers.
No additional engravings are required because you submit the factory engravings, and as the rule is written they're treating the existing firearm as an SBR, so the engravings are already indicative of an SBR (Similarly, if you purchased a Form 4 SBR you would not need to engrave it, this is essentially the same). - Chase

 

[btuse]

No expert here, but it is my understanding you cannot just remove the brace and legally possess it, unless you remove the adjustable stock buffer tube as well; and replace it with a non adjustable type. Also advised not to shoulder it.

 

[OLD TANTO]

No expert here, but it is my understanding you cannot just remove the brace and legally possess it, unless you remove the adjustable stock buffer tube as well; and replace it with a non adjustable type. Also advised not to shoulder it.

Unless you got this from the atf yourself, i say baloney. I simply put my brace in the garbage and i'm good. We all knew, or should have known that this brace thing was wrong from the very start anyway. The atf screwed up when they let braces be sold in the first place. Ditto bump stocks and double triggers. You skirt the laws, you get burned. Now about all my 30 round mags that are now illegal and NOT in my trash.

 

[E. Bryant]

No expert here, but it is my understanding you cannot just remove the brace and legally possess it, unless you remove the adjustable stock buffer tube as well; and replace it with a non adjustable type. Also advised not to shoulder it.

This is incorrect per the ATF presentation that I attended shortly after publication of the new rule (I believe this would have been the 10AM EST call on 1Feb2023). It was stated by an unnamed agent that removal of a carbine-style receiver extension ("notched buffer tube" was the language used) is not a requirement.

It was stated on the same call that pistol owners should avoid "constructive possession" of a brace or stock, but this was not defined.

 

[btuse]

This is incorrect per the ATF presentation that I attended shortly after publication of the new rule (I believe this would have been the 10AM EST call on 1Feb2023). It was stated by an unnamed agent that removal of a carbine-style receiver extension ("notched buffer tube" was the language used) is not a requirement.

It was stated on the same call that pistol owners should avoid "constructive possession" of a brace or stock, but this was not defined.

Thank you. That is very interesting, and sounds like your dialed in more than most. I was referring to a convo I had with a custom gas gun builder with SOT.
I took advantage of the forbearance tax free offer, as I'm hardly unknown with 6 cans and 12+ form 4's. Tried the DIY method to no avail; then popped for the Silencer Shop $50 filing program, super easy.

Constructive Possession? Hmmm. This is what I found and don't entirely comprehend:
is a legal fiction to describe a situation in which an individual has 'Actual' control over chattels or real property without actually(?) having 'Physical' control of the same assets.

Any legal eagles who can define this, and how it relates to the brace? just curious.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

One of the problems with the rule is it doesn't define how much area is considered a shoulder'able stock. While the ATF has said taking off the pistol brace brings you into compliance, the rule doesn't actually say holding the buffer tube to your shoulder isn't a "shoulder'able stock. One of the lawsuits, I can't remember which, is based on the vagueness of determining what, and what isn't, a short barreled rifle. This is pretty important because the ATF has been saying for years (in writing) certain braces weren't stocks but then they revoked those written opinions. Now there isn't even a written opinion on how much area is considered a stock, just some random agent's word during a training seminar.

In six months will the buffer tube still be considered not a stock? Can you trust anything at all from the ATF at this point? How bad do you want to find out?