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Found a Good Load But Have Ejector Marks on Brass

Vect0rstar

Private
Minuteman
Feb 5, 2018
47
9
I found a good load for my rifle (.5-.75 Moa) but I’m getting some ejector marks on my brass. The bolt is not sticky or hard to open.

Shooting RAP 6.5 creedmoor
147 gr eldm
41.5 gr of H4350
Hornady brass
CCI 200 Primers

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Virgin brass? If so it could have extra headspace clearance so they are slamming back into the bolt face harder than they otherwise would. It could also be that they have a smaller volume in their unfired state and thats leading to pressure as well.

My biggest question: your primer pockets look like they have a massive chamfer around the edge? Is that just camera tricks or did you do that intentionally? If intentionally... why? I was trying to look at the primers for signs but they looked all screwy.
 
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Virgin brass? If so it could have extra headspace clearance so they are slamming back into the bolt face harder than they otherwise would. It could also be that they have a smaller volume in their unfired state and thats leading to pressure as well.

My question, your primer pockets look like they have a massive chamfer around the edge? Is that just camera tricks or did you do that intentionally? If intentionally... why?

It’s once fired brass. Got it from the bulk American gunner stuff Hornady offers. I haven’t chamfered and primer pockets. So probably just camera tricks.

BTW, I love your Nacho Libre profile picture!
 
My opinion, worth exactly what you paid for it: Damn sure don't go any higher, and be very vigilant if (when) temperature rises. Primers look a little cratered to me, might just be camera angle. Can you feel a ridge on the primer where the firing pin hit? Be aware that you are close to the edge. If you can drop 1 or 2 tenths and still be happy, you'll have a safer load.
 
In that case Illl just leave this here https://www.primalrights.com/library/articles/understanding-pressure
Ejector marks are signs of over pressure, tread carefully.


Are you jamming the bullet into the lands? Color a bullet with sharpie, chamber it, extract it, do you see the imprints of the rifling in the sharpie? If so then you might try to seat the bullets deeper into the case.
 
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My opinion, worth exactly what you paid for it: Damn sure don't go any higher, and be very vigilant if (when) temperature rises. Primers look a little cratered to me, might just be camera angle. Can you feel a ridge on the primer where the firing pin hit? Be aware that you are close to the edge. If you can drop 1 or 2 tenths and still be happy, you'll have a safer load.


Primers are cratered. That one’s not just a camera angle. In my limited experience with CCI primers it seems like they are soft. This is my first time using any large rifle primers. CCI 400 primers cratered very easily for me. I’ve moved to CCI 450 for most of my small rifle primer stuff and they definitely seem harder. I’m not sure if CCI large primers are soft just like the small ones.

I was shooting in 20*F weather. I may drop down .1 or so to be safer in warmer weather.
 
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In that case Illl just leave this here https://www.primalrights.com/library/articles/understanding-pressure
Ejector marks are signs of over pressure, tread carefully.


Are you jamming the bullet into the lands? Color a bullet with sharpie, chamber it, extract it, do you see the imprints of the rifling in the sharpie? If so then you might try to seat the bullets deeper into the case.

I highly doubt I’m jamming into the lands. I’m using a Pmag and seating with room to spare in the mag. I might try to check that out.
 
20 deg F and looking like that - I suspect at 90-100F someone would be picking up pieces of the rifle AND you and putting them in a trash bag.

.1 of a grain is down in the noise and will make no difference.
 
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That load looks good to me I wouldn't change a thing.
The primers cratering is most likely the firing pin fit in the bolt.
The edges are rounded and not flattened.
 
On second look, it seems like the primer flattening is inconsistent; most do show some rounding on the edges, even though they look flat at first.

Cratering can be from the gap around the FP vs the hole in the bolt face; I've had ejector marks too when brass had .006-.008" gap from the shoulder to the chamber and was jumping backwards upon firing. That brings up another issue - if this is the case, cases are short vs chamber, then head separation could be in your near future. Bend a paper clip and start checking for it now.

Comments about a .1 drop as well as testing in cold weather still apply.
 
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If you doubt you’re jamming, that tells me you haven’t actually measured the chamber yet, yes? Do that or buy the tool to do that. It’s important. If you’re on or very close to the lands, id add some jump.

Any chrono data with these?

While primers are shitty for determining pressure, some stuff sticks out in yours. That middle case on the left in the row of three. That primer looks like the load never reached any pressure, there are one or two others in there. That’s a trend in your cases, they run from total creampuff, to pretty good swipes. You could have some spiking pressures. Take some of the cases which show the heaviest pressures, and seat some new primers in them. Primer pockets are the first thing to go in Hornady cases. No need to size the cases, just sacrifice a few new primers in those cases alone.

I agree with the other poster, .1 gr will do nothing as an adjustment, I’d start at .5 at least. You only mentioned accuracy, and nothing about nodes, so you may have not established that yet. If not, I’d sort out the bullet jump question and run a narrow OCW.
 
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I was shooting in 20*F weather. I may drop down .1 or so to be safer in warmer weather.

I'm using a small cooler with hot water bottle in load development to keep my ammo warm in cold weather. I have a bluetooth Ketrel Drop and an infrared temp gun to monitor temps. This way my ammo is 75 to 85 degs, which I feel is a good mean ambient temperature. On this day I was inside with a woodstove too but this would work outside as well.

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Actually I think these look okay. I don't see any ejector Mark's and the primers have a round transition on the edge. There is a slight shiney spot on some pieces where the bolt scuffed it.
 
If you doubt you’re jamming, that tells me you haven’t actually measured the chamber yet, yes? Do that or buy the tool to do that. It’s important. If you’re on or very close to the lands, id add some jump.

Any chrono data with these?

While primers are shitty for determining pressure, some stuff sticks out in yours. That middle case on the left in the row of three. That primer looks like the load never reached any pressure, there are one or two others in there. That’s a trend in your cases, they run from total creampuff, to pretty good swipes. You could have some spiking pressures. Take some of the cases which show the heaviest pressures, and seat some new primers in them. Primer pockets are the first thing to go in Hornady cases. No need to size the cases, just sacrifice a few new primers in those cases alone.

I agree with the other poster, .1 gr will do nothing as an adjustment, I’d start at .5 at least. You only mentioned accuracy, and nothing about nodes, so you may have not established that yet. If not, I’d sort out the bullet jump question and run a narrow OCW.


I've only shot 2 through my chrono. One was 2,600 and the other was 2,593

I haven't measured the chamber and I don't have the tool. I did do the trick with the sharpie and it came out with no marks from the lands.

I did notice how some of the primers look like they never reached pressure. I'm not quite sure what could be causing such inconsistencies. All charges were weighed on an RCBS chargemaster Lite so I'd think they'd all be close enough in charge weight to cause the discrepancy. I took a couple cases that had the biggest pressure signs and put new primers in. They seated just like any normal case.

I haven't sorted out any nodes yet.

I wanted to try some reloader 26 because it seems like guys are getting good velocities with the 147s, but I couldn't find it in stock anywhere locally. What do you think about trying a slower burning powder? 2,600 fps doesn't seem all that good to me. I'm shooting with a 22'' barrel.
 
On second look, it seems like the primer flattening is inconsistent; most do show some rounding on the edges, even though they look flat at first.

Cratering can be from the gap around the FP vs the hole in the bolt face; I've had ejector marks too when brass had .006-.008" gap from the shoulder to the chamber and was jumping backwards upon firing. That brings up another issue - if this is the case, cases are short vs chamber, then head separation could be in your near future. Bend a paper clip and start checking for it now.

Comments about a .1 drop as well as testing in cold weather still apply.

I busted out a paper clip and haven't found any sign of it yet. I am full length sizing with a hornady die screwed in till it touches the shell plate.
 
The entire seating depth pressure issue can be fixed easily.
When you start your load development you always start at the longest length possible.
In the case of a rifle with a magazine that will be your limitation.
On a single shot target gun fully jammed into the lands is were you would start.
From there you only go in one direction which is shorter.
You only need a caliper and a comparator and you don't need any special tools.
Your gun is your tool.
 
I don't get it. All you guys are saying that there are pressure signs and I don't see them.

In the first picture, I see a little scrape on the cases in row 2, cases 1, 3, and 4. There might be a little scrape on row 1, case 3 - you can see it picture 3, the box was rotated so see the left column, second case from the bottom. Maybe. There are no distinct circles from the ejector. No hard lift.

Now go back and look at the primers in picture 3. The shoulders are still rounded, not flattened. There is no cratering. If he is having pressure I don't see it in the cases or the primers.

Smokeless powder in a firearm is a bunch of energy so we should be careful but where is the problem here? I do not have a 6.5 Creed so I have no personal experience with it. A quick google suggests that this powder charge is not out of the normal range. What are you guys seeing and reacting to?
 
I don't get it. All you guys are saying that there are pressure signs and I don't see them.

In the first picture, I see a little scrape on the cases in row 2, cases 1, 3, and 4. There might be a little scrape on row 1, case 3 - you can see it picture 3, the box was rotated so see the left column, second case from the bottom. Maybe. There are no distinct circles from the ejector. No hard lift.

Now go back and look at the primers in picture 3. The shoulders are still rounded, not flattened. There is no cratering. If he is having pressure I don't see it in the cases or the primers.

Smokeless powder in a firearm is a bunch of energy so we should be careful but where is the problem here? I do not have a 6.5 Creed so I have no personal experience with it. A quick google suggests that this powder charge is not out of the normal range. What are you guys seeing and reacting to?


These are all different cases in the box. Quite clear that they have ejector swipes. Primers are a crappy indicator of pressure, especially when headspace is near zero
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The entire seating depth pressure issue can be fixed easily.
When you start your load development you always start at the longest length possible.
In the case of a rifle with a magazine that will be your limitation.
On a single shot target gun fully jammed into the lands is were you would start.
From there you only go in one direction which is shorter.
You only need a caliper and a comparator and you don't need any special tools.
Your gun is your tool.


That’s not a fix for pressure. I never start jammed, as I almost never shoot anything jammed. It abnormally elevates pressure, causes spikes, and is much harder to get small velocity spreads.
 
Yeah I totally disagree with that.
The world's most accurate guns routinely shoot with jammed bullets and have extreme spreads lower than most posting here have standard deviation.
If your using a magazine you start at magazine length as I posted.
If your shooting single shot and work up your powder charge fully jammed you won't have any pressure issue at all.
If you get a chance Berger Bullets has posted the numbers of there website.
 
I’ve read the berger articles. There are many things we do differently than the bench rest crowd. Of course you can jam and charge accordingly, without overpressuring. Pressures build in a non-linear way the closer you get to the lands. I choose not to load there. Having shot thousands of 147’s now, I know for certain that they shoot very well from 20 to 50 thou off, and velocity spreads are tiny in those ranges.


Here’s an excerpt. Nowhere do they say you must jam. They do say “many do”, and they also note several times the way pressure increases.





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Why would they say you must jam?
When your working up a load for best accuracy it is easier to start at the maximum length you will ever see and only work in one direction.
KISS keep it simple stupid assures you will NEVER have any pressure issues.
If you start out at any other length and then change the length you are left unaware of the pressure which by the way is roughly 3000 psi.
 

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You’re the one who said the OP must start at jam. I believe where the lands are is of primary importance, which is why I recommended the OP get a tool to measure it. It’s one of the main unknowns with his/her situation. OP never said anything about seating depth, or depth changes.

I’m not a ragged edge loader, so I don’t have any issues with over pressure, in any cartridge I load for. I can leave my ammo in the sun, in a hot car, dirty gun, clean gun, it doesn’t matter. Your excerpt is talking only about comparing long to short, with no regard to where the lands are. That isn’t what we were talking about. Since you brought it up, I still contend that close proximity to the lands has a greater affect on increasing pressures, than pushing a bullet .050 down into a case will, generally speaking.
 
If you start your load workup as I suggested which was EITHER at Full Jam OR at Max Magazine Length you never have a pressure issue with changing your seating depth down the road is what I actually said.
People like Bryan Lutz at Berger Bullets also recommend you start longer than SAAMI OR Jammed. They never said you must do it they recommend it only for those without magazines.
There is no pressure signs in his loads is also actually what I said in post #11 with his load.
If you start out fully jammed and only work in one direction the pressure will drop about 3000 psi and as you keep going shorter and shorter in length it will slowly start to rise again as case volume gets smaller and smaller.
For the shooters who start off there load development at the lands or just off the lands they can see more pressure by jamming the bullet that they wouldn't have seen had they started there in the first place.
In short you start at your maximum length and find your powder charge.
You then change your seating depth in only one direction looking for smallest group.
If you need to go longer in length it will never be a problem only if you started out correctly in the first place.
 
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It’s once fired brass. Got it from the bulk American gunner stuff Hornady offers. I haven’t chamfered and primer pockets. So probably just camera tricks.

BTW, I love your Nacho Libre profile picture!
Who sized the brass, Hornady or you? How much is this brass growing upon firing? Do you any of this brass that has not been fired in your rifle, if so, are there ejector marks present from the original firing?
How much brass buildup is on your bolt face right now after firing these? Let's see a pic of it< not 100% related to all this.
 
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If you start your load workup as I suggested which was EITHER at Full Jam OR at Max Magazine Length you never have a pressure issue with changing your seating depth down the road is what I actually said.
People like Bryan Lutz at Berger Bullets also recommend you start longer than SAAMI OR Jammed. They never said you must do it they recommend it only for those without magazines.
There is no pressure signs in his loads is also actually what I said in post #11 with his load.
If you start out fully jammed and only work in one direction the pressure will drop about 3000 psi and as you keep going shorter and shorter in length it will slowly start to rise again as case volume gets smaller and smaller.
For the shooters who start off there load development at the lands or just off the lands they can see more pressure by jamming the bullet that they wouldn't have seen had they started there in the first place.
In short you start at your maximum length and find your powder charge.
You then change your seating depth in only one direction looking for smallest group.
If you need to go longer in length it will never be a problem only if you started out correctly in the first place.


I understand your method completely. Actually jamming (engraving of the bullet) is something that has no place in this game, period. Our only disagreement is how close we get to the lands. I’m working in one direction just like you are, I’m just not going to start in a place that will guarantee a finicky load.
 
I’m working in one direction just like you are, I’m just not going to start in a place that will guarantee a finicky load.
Some of the tightest groups ever from 100-1000 yards are shot with jammed bullets. The only thing finicky is the land chasing program associated with maintaining the same jam, we have tools or methods to work around it.
 
I dont doubt that that’s possible. Doting over where the throat is, varying lots of bullets, etc., is a pain in the ass. Ask Lowlight what he thinks about students who jam bullets in his classes, then have a stoppage because of a bullet stuck in the throat and powder all over the inside of the action. No place in a field gun for jamming.
 
I dont doubt that that’s possible. Doting over where the throat is, varying lots of bullets, etc., is a pain in the ass. Ask Lowlight what he thinks about students who jam bullets in his classes, then have a stoppage because of a bullet stuck in the throat and powder all over the inside of the action. No place in a field gun for jamming.
Lol, I don't disagree with that logic, I refuse to shoot jammed too. I just sold my bullet sorting tool last week, I paid 125+for it to help sort a shit box of 110 sierra's. I had 8 or 9 piles, then cut it to over-under this number, then threw the whole box of bullets in the trash can and opened a new box that was consistent.
 
Who sized the brass, Hornady or you? How much is this brass growing upon firing? Do you any of this brass that has not been fired in your rifle, if so, are there ejector marks present from the original firing?
How much brass buildup is on your bolt face right now after firing these? Let's see a pic of it< not 100% related to all this.

I sized the brass. Every piece of brass I have was fired in my rifle. The original firing does not have ejector marks. I measured the difference between once fired and resized brass to twice fired and resized brass. It's about .01 in difference. A couple are .02 in longer.
 

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I am curious if you find anything. I was shooting Sunday with my Howa 1500 in 6.5cm and I was just playing around with loads and it was 10 degrees f out and I had once fired Hornady brass that I sized and I seated Hornady 129 sst bullets 25 thousandths off lands cCI 200 and I had the same signs you are showing at 42 gas of h4350. I haven’t had time to sit down and check my data or gun over to try and find a reason. I had hard bolt lift on the one 42.5 gr h4350 I fired and I shot 10 Hornady 147 eld match factory loaded rounds right after that and the I quit so I could review everything before I loaded any more. I need to order some 147 elds, my rifle liked the factory rounds.
 
Is that 2.855 the measurement from the tip of the bullet I assume?

That's correct. I don't have comparatoror anything to find the lands yet. I'm still in high school and definitely on a budget. I'm not sure that I got the right bullet for optimal long range performance out of my 22'' barrel. At only 2600 fps I'm thinking of trying different bullets or powder.
 
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I sized the brass. Every piece of brass I have was fired in my rifle. The original firing does not have ejector marks. I measured the difference between once fired and resized brass to twice fired and resized brass. It's about .01 in difference. A couple are .02 in longer.
Thanks, bolt face clean enough, I hate coated bolt faces, IMO brass just adheres to them. I think that is why I like Impact actions so much, bolt face looks to be machined after nitriding.
Brass is flowing into your ejector hole if your numbers are correct. You can either keep shooting it and ultimately ruin your brass, as your case head is probably expanding too, or lower the charge or find a different powder(slower) to try. Even though your velocities are low, something is not adding up.
 
Seating depth is 2.8550


To answer your earlier question, you certainly could go with a slower powder. I’m one of the guys having great luck with rl26. Rl16 is another powder that works really well with 147’s.

You really should get a tool for measuring where the lands are. I use the Sinclair tool.
 
That's correct. I don't have comparatoror anything to find the lands yet. I'm still in high school and definitely on a budget. I'm not sure that I got the right bullet for optimal long range performance out of my 22'' barrel. At only 2600 fps I'm thinking of trying different bullets or powder.
You are pretty well rounded and on top of shit for a HS kid. Pm me your address, I have an extra Hornady OAL tool, modified case and Sinclair comparator setup you can have. The Sinclair will give you a number diff than what most will post because it measures father down the ogive than a Hornady one, but it is your number, all you need.
 
You really should get a tool for measuring where the lands are. I use the Sinclair tool.

I concur. I’m using the Hornady tool. Doing a new load now on a new barrel and it was one of the first things I did. In my case I started at .020 off the lands.....
 
That's correct. I don't have comparatoror anything to find the lands yet. I'm still in high school and definitely on a budget. I'm not sure that I got the right bullet for optimal long range performance out of my 22'' barrel. At only 2600 fps I'm thinking of trying different bullets or powder.


My 147/h4350 load out of my 23” barrel is 2650, not too far from where you’re at now. If you run the numbers between the 140 and 147 eld’s, they’re pretty much identical downrange. The 147’s go on sale a lot, and i’ve invested heavy in them.

Let Milo sort you out with the tools, fix the pressure issue, and just shoot it.

Do update us with your measurements. I’m curious to see where 2.855 puts you in relation to the lands.
 
You are pretty well rounded and on top of shit for a HS kid. Pm me your address, I have an extra Hornady OAL tool, modified case and Sinclair comparator setup you can have. The Sinclair will give you a number diff than what most will post because it measures father down the ogive than a Hornady one, but it is your number, all you need.


Thank you so much Milo. I greatly appreciate it. It really does mean a lot to me. I’ll send you a pm right away.
 
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Thanks, bolt face clean enough, I hate coated bolt faces, IMO brass just adheres to them. I think that is why I like Impact actions so much, bolt face looks to be machined after nitriding.
Brass is flowing into your ejector hole if your numbers are correct. You can either keep shooting it and ultimately ruin your brass, as your case head is probably expanding too, or lower the charge or find a different powder(slower) to try. Even though your velocities are low, something is not adding up.

Thanks for that insight. I want to make my brass last as long as possible. Since I can’t find any RL26 are there any other powders you’d recommend? I can’t get pretty much anything else locally. Including RL16
 
Thanks for that insight. I want to make my brass last as long as possible. Since I can’t find any RL26 are there any other powders you’d recommend? I can’t get pretty much anything else locally. Including RL16
Not sure, I guess it now depends on if you absolutely need a stable powder. H100V, VV N 150, I do not think you can go as slow as H4831. maybe IMR 4955, if you are tight on coin, experimenting with powders not wise, open jugs of powder do not sell well.
I think stepping down to a 140gr bullet, same powder, you will be fine. A lot of bearing surface on that 147X
 
I sized the brass. Every piece of brass I have was fired in my rifle. The original firing does not have ejector marks. I measured the difference between once fired and resized brass to twice fired and resized brass. It's about .01 in difference. A couple are .02 in longer.

If your shoulders are moving that much, your ejector marks could be excessive headspace caused by oversized brass. Oversized, as in the shoulders are bumped too far back. How are you measuring should bump?
 
If your shoulders are moving that much, your ejector marks could be excessive headspace caused by oversized brass. Oversized, as in the shoulders are bumped too far back. How are you measuring should bump?

Is he measuring the shoulders, or the case length?
 
Is he measuring the shoulders, or the case length?

I suspect case length. If he doesn't have a bullet compactor, he may not have a shoulder comparator, but if his cases are growing that much at the end of the neck, I would suspect he is bumping his shoulders way too much. .01-.02 is a mile in reloading. Only he can tell us though. My thoughts are also he is unlikely to jam a 147 ELD at 2.855, unless he has a short throat.

O.P A piece of 40S&W brass makes a fine shoulder comparator for 6.5 Creedmoor.
 
I suspect case length. If he doesn't have a bullet compactor, he may not have a shoulder comparator, but if his cases are growing that much at the end of the neck, I would suspect he is bumping his shoulders way too much. .01-.02 is a mile in reloading. Only he can tell us though. My thoughts are also he is unlikely to jam a 147 ELD at 2.855, unless he has a short throat.

O.P A piece of 40S&W brass makes a fine shoulder comparator for 6.5 Creedmoor.


I don’t have anything to measure shoulder bump. I thought they were growing a bit much too. When I shoot 223 it doesn’t move that much, but I wasn’t sure if 6.5 grows more like that. I guess the answer is no. Thanks for the idea of using a piece of .40 brass. I should be able to find a pice laying around. If not I can always make one ;)