• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

Front stuffers and pumpkin slinger picture thread…

sirhrmechanic

Command Sgt. Major
Full Member
Minuteman
We lack a good thread here in Vintage for contemporary and period muzzleloaders. The pop up from time to time. But the “original sniper” rifles were technically-advanced and beautiful jaeger and Pennsylvania style rifled guns that went to work for an expanding colony and nascent republic!

I picked this stunning Contemporary long rifle up Friday on a whim. Never had one that shouldered so perfectly! .45 cal flintlock. Made c. 1960’s or ‘70 by C. KEMPER. I think it is his son Marvin Kemper who is the Master gunmaker who owns Liberty Longrifles.

Thanks to friend and Master Builder Ed Parry who had this waiting for me when I visited with a “thought you might like this” smile on his face.

IMG_2371.jpeg


IMG_2372.jpeg


IMG_2375.jpeg


IMG_2373.jpeg


IMG_2369.jpeg


Pictures don’t do justice to the light construction… 7/8” or slimmer barrel. Featherweight… simple, highly figured stock.

Post yours up! I know lots of you vintage guys have some stunning original and repro pieces!!

Cheers, Sirhr
 
Are we limiting the “front stuffing” to long guns

Hell no!!!!

Horse pistols and belt pistols… along with fowlers are all welcome.

Remember that almost all of Rogers’ Rangers original men carried smoothbore muskets. One of the “tests” was an ability to shoot thrown pine cones out of the air with a ball.

Also sharp things like hawks, clubs, cutlasses, cannons and cudgels welcome.

Why not!!!

Sirhr
 
I've been shooting N-SSA with my Confederate Grandson. I'm using a Parker Hale 2 band Enfield. It is truly one challenging competition. I shoot High Power and do kinda good off hand, usually high Expert low Master scores. Shooting a muzzle loader off hand is different. Still learning how to make bullets too. I like it even though I'm terrible at it.
 
I've been shooting N-SSA with my Confederate Grandson. I'm using a Parker Hale 2 band Enfield. It is truly one challenging competition. I shoot High Power and do kinda good off hand, usually high Expert low Master scores. Shooting a muzzle loader off hand is different. Still learning how to make bullets too. I like it even though I'm terrible at it.
I shot with the 69th NY for a few years. Problems at home put an end to my skirmishing, but I really enjoyed the time I had.
 
BTW, for those thinking about building one but worried about skill levels for inletting, shaping, etc, check out Kiblers.

Got my Windrunner kit in after waiting about 6 months and it is amazing. Beyond amazing. They have totally changed the kit game.

Their locks are pure art.

Anyone can finish one… so if you “always wanted to build a real tier 1 flintlock Or caplock, take a look.

Cheers, Sirhr

PS not associated with them or Shilling them. Just impressed as heck with them!!!
 
BTW, for those thinking about building one but worried about skill levels for inletting, shaping, etc, check out Kiblers.

Got my Windrunner kit in after waiting about 6 months and it is amazing. Beyond amazing. They have totally changed the kit game.

Their locks are pure art.

Anyone can finish one… so if you “always wanted to build a real tier 1 flintlock Or caplock, take a look.

Cheers, Sirhr

PS not associated with them or Shilling them. Just impressed as heck with them!!!
I was playing with their build a kit and the Mrs. whomped me upside the head. I guess that I went a “bit” overboard on the upgrades. 🤣🤣
 
  • Haha
  • Like
Reactions: FWoo45 and lash
I was playing with their build a kit and the Mrs. whomped me upside the head. I guess that I went a “bit” overboard on the upgrades. 🤣🤣

When she gave you the whomp, you should have said "Oh damn, dear... when you smacked me, my finger slipped and I hit the 'PAY' button. So, not my fault!"

Sirhr
 
Here's my unique military matchlock musket that was built by renowned gunsmith Peter Peck in the 1570's. It's the only known plain military matchlock to have come out of his Munich, Germany workshop. This is an extremely rare/early type of grasping trigger matchlock musket, which also features a fishtail style stock, unique metal carving, early front/rear peep sights and it's original match rope! Since this firearm was built in the late 1500's, it was probably pressed into service during the 30 Years' War in the 1600's. For more information on this unique piece of history, check out this link:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18212&highlight=peter+peck

TKzSmhN.jpeg

YFWUWn8.jpeg

Te1z2bY.jpeg

Xi2UvnD.jpeg

f2L2E9K.jpeg

UTxTEXn.jpeg
 
Last edited:
@sirhrmechanic
I was just looking at that kibler kit. My son saw the traditions flintlock Kentucky rifle build kit and wants to build one, but I saw the reviews weren’t great and wanted something higher quality. Can you post more about your Kibler? How far along are you with it? Thanks!
 
  • Like
Reactions: sirhrmechanic
Give me till this evening when I can type on a real keyboard. But the difference between a Kibler and a traditions is the difference between chicken salad and chicken. Shit!

That’s an LBJ quote by the way. Cheers.

Ok... so the kits. I've not built a Traditions, but have handled a lot of them. They are very functional. They will go boom. They are accurate. The Hawken kits are 'marginally Hawken-like' in their execution. I have a .32 Squirrel rifle (not a kit) that I love for Primative Biathlon as it's light and fun to shoot and always goes bang. But the reality is that they are chunky. Parts don't 'look' authentic. The 'Kentucky' rifle is totally not authentic as it's a two-piece stock with a spacer. The front of the stock just hangs off the front of the gun. And their lines are merely adequate. The locks are 'cast and stamped' parts with some color case hardening added for... What? Original locks weren't color case hardened. So... bling. Wood, last, is often birch or a very low grade of maple. Or ash. Not a quality curly maple. On the plus side... they are cheap! $400 or so for a kit. And if you are talented, you can make a really cool rifle out of one (a Hawken, at least) by really going to town reshaping, putting on a proper patch box, getting rid of cheap brass parts, etc. But you will be a LONG time getting it to be... a Traditions with a big Italian Logo stamped on it, etc. (I think they are Italian or Spanish.)

Don't get me wrong. Traditions is a great company. They make a fine utilitarian product that fills a huge need for a great inexpensive rifle for hunters and shooters who want to enjoy black powder without going 'whole hog' on a true contemporary Long Rifle.

Kibler's kits are totally the most incredible kits out there. They have brought CNC technology to kits as well as styling. The inletting is so good that parts are already fit when you open up the shipping crate. They offer wood options (the Windrunner I just got after waiting 6 months) is 4X fancy exhibition walnut. Go big or go home! The fit of the hardware is unreal! Barrel channel is perfect. And where they really shine is their locks. These are all CNC made of finest materials. The exterior is grey but will take a brown finish beautifully. The inside of the lock is like something from a fine English Double. Again, CNC made, perfectly hardened. And they have done things like put in roller bearings on the moving parts, so they are smooth and the lock time is incredibly fast. Frizzens are perfectly hardened and spark great. And the lines are traditional! The Southern Mountain RIfle is... just like a simple working man's rifle from the Western Carolina/TN/KY region. The patch box cover (wood) slides in perfectly right out of the box! There has never been a kit like that. But also if you want to add carving, wire work, inlays, fancy patchbox etc. it is an amazing canvas. Once finished, stained, browned, you will have a gun that LOOKS like it should. And has parts that look and feel like they were made by the finest gunsmiths of the 19th Century.

Last, the Kibler is almost infinitely customizable. You can spec. out your rifle the way you want it. Plain or fancy. Plain furniture and fancy wood. Skinny barrel or thick barrel. Swamped barrel... which no kit does! And when you get your kit, you will assemble and finish it. You don't have to do all the complex inletting, etc. It's done for you. You can concentrate on decoration and finish.

Kibler, IMHO, is revolutionizing kits. Well, has revolutionized kits. Downside... they cost a bit more. And they are worth every penny of the 'more' because of the work already done. Especially if you are a novice builder. Other downside.... 6+ month wait depending on the kit. BUT if you watch their site, they have kits come available almost all the time. People who back out. Over-Runs, Sales, etc. So you can watch for something with a 'Buy it Now' and do really well on it.

Last, there are 'kits' available from Track of the Wolf and others. These often have un-fettled parts, roughly finished stocks, etc. Nothing wrong with these. But they take patience, tools and expertise to assemble. Butt plate fitting alone can consume a day or more... and wood stocks require major rasp and file work.

There is also The Rifle Shoppe which makes casting sets and wood pieces (and locks) for some really interesting rifles. My Hall and Ferguson kit came from them. As did my 'grenade/Bombe' launcher and Wall gun from the Revolutionary war. The downsides are that the castings are crude as heck. They require a LOT of machining, fettling, fitting, etc. Unless you are a real expert, don't even think of ordering a lock parts set. Order an assembled lock. The other downside is that they take years to get your kit. Their communications are appalling. And even when you 'can' get ahold of them... it's rare that they follow through with what they promised. I am still waiting on a French Indian Wars kit I ordered and paid for 2 years ago. A simple kit that 'should' be on the shelf. They are nice people. But are sort of better at casting things than running a business. And doubt I'll order another kit from them after my F/I gun comes in.

I can say more about buying contemporary rifle from a master builder if you want... but best generally to buy on secondary market. Nice guns come up on Gunbroker and auctions all the time. But if you want something special from a specific builder (Herschel House, Marvin Kemper, Ed Parry, etc) stand in line and expect to pay seriouse money. But the investment will be totally worth it because you will get what YOU want. Just like ordering one from a master builder in 1750 - 1850... the golden age of the Pennsylvania Rifle. But before going this route, I'd suggest looking at a lot of guns to decide what appeals to you. Because you are buying a piece of functional art. You want something that you love to look at and hold... for your investment.

Hope this helps! Nothing wrong with Traditions kits and finished guns. They are what they are. But if you really want a kit that will be worth your time as well as your money, check out a Kibler. I am just blown away by them.

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
Thanks for the write up! I think we will definitely be getting the Kibler when the time comes. The ease of assembly and the quality of the lock was what already had me leaning that way and everything you’ve just said really helps.

Kiddo is almost 7, so not having to worry about hand fitting everything would and not taking months to finish would really help keep him from losing interest I think.

Please update with pics when you get it finished! Would love to see that extra fancy walnut.
 
One last thing... there are a couple of groups for associations that are valuable for the enthusiast. First is the NMLRA and their publication Muzzle Blasts is first rate.

The second is The Contemporary Longrifles Association, which is the modern builder group. They have an excellent and active 'private' Facebook group and are worth joining. Last, there is Facebook group called Herschel House Longrifles and Such. And is an excellent place/resource for info on kits, etc. I am sure there must be a Kibler group on FB, but I have not seen it.

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
  • Like
Reactions: crackerbrown
Thanks for the write up! I think we will definitely be getting the Kibler when the time comes. The ease of assembly and the quality of the lock was what already had me leaning that way and everything you’ve just said really helps.

Kiddo is almost 7, so not having to worry about hand fitting everything would and not taking months to finish would really help keep him from losing interest I think.

Please update with pics when you get it finished! Would love to see that extra fancy walnut.
Maple!

Walnut on a longrifle is like pineapple on a pizza. Sorry @SONIC SAAMI

You will not regret the kibler!

Sirhr
 
  • Like
Reactions: vortexyz and lash
I shot with the 69th NY for a few years. Problems at home put an end to my skirmishing, but I really enjoyed the time I had.
Battery C, 1st Mich. Lt. Arty

My Mississippi is my favorite! Sharps comes a close second.

The kibler kits tempt me. I see woods walks in my future.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ZG47A
Check out americanlongrifle.org for threads on rifle building - there are some amazing Kibler kits on there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: vortexyz
Battery C, 1st Mich. Lt. Arty

My Mississippi is my favorite! Sharps comes a close second.

The kibler kits tempt me. I see woods walks in my future.
I miss trips to nationals. We had a great bunch. I shot a Springfield musket and the most butt ugly and accurate Smith carbine.
The first time I drove to Nationals I thought I was lost, I got passed on the highway by a tractor trailer that had a camper mounted on it along with a Napolean cannon and caisson. Turns out I was headed in the right direction so, I just follwed them to Fort Shenandoah.
 
This is a rabbit hole that I didn’t expect to be going down this evening. Those Kibler kits look awesome.
 
I love the guns, but my eyes no longer do. Last year I overpaid for a Pedersoli Tyron because it already had a tang sight added and a fiber optic front blade. Because while it was a crime, it wasn't my crime. ;)

A .50, I was mostly unimpressed with how it shot. The one thing it shot the best was .45 cal pistol bullets with sabots. That was one thing too much for me. I'd bought it with the idea of possibly having it rebored to something larger. The sabot thing convinced me. Sent it to Bob Hoyt and had it made a .58 round ball shooter. Still haven't had a change to get it out since it came back.
 
  • Like
Reactions: roostercogburn98
So I learned something really interesting today... Facebook private discussion group called "Herschel House Long Rifles" for aficionados of contemporary long rifles.

The topic of 'deep crescent buttplates' came up... and the question was 'how to shoot them comfortably?' That led to a couple of the 'old timers' chiming in about the old 'Southern style' of shooting, especially small caliber rifles with rather 'heavy' barrels. .32, 40 and .45 barrels tend to be front heavy! The answer was a crescent butt plate.

My 'assumption' was that these rifles tended to be designed for stringy beanpole Scots-Irish Mountain folks, not 21st Century folks with huge shoulders/biceps/upper bodies (in comparison to our ancestors). Or that the deeply curved buttplates were for Scheutzen or 'strange positional' shooting used in those old matches. Nope... everything to do with the shooting stance, in large part to support a muzzle-heavy rifle. The Southern stance, which was not the classic 'weaver' style that we think of today... (Weaver is not just for handguns) is ideal for the type of rifles favored... long, small caliber front-heavy rifles.

The classic, flat buttplate shooting style we are all used to vs. the "Southern Style" is superbly illustrated in this video. With the rifle shot 'across your chest' making use of the curved buttplate.



The difference of putting the rifle in the crook of your arm and shooting 'across' your chest is really amazing... because with a lot of my old rifles I've been shooting them 'wrong' when it comes to using the ergonomics correctly. And this isn't just frontstuffers, but 'modern' rifles which offered rather deeply curved buttplates as an option well into the 20th Century. Why? Because customers used to shooting 'across the chest' wanted to order guns that fit the way they shot... not order guns that required them to re-learn shooting! So deep crescents were available well into the 20th century by special order... for shooters who shot 'across the chest.'

Here's some examples that I went off to play with during the "Fakebook" discussion. And damn if all of a sudden these rifles didn't 'come alive' in my hands. Feel better. Dry fire better. And I guarantee when fired, the crescent wouldn't be digging in to my shoulder... it would be riding on the bicep where it was perfectly comfortable.



crescent.jpg


Top to bottom... late 19th century Percussion 'target' rifle from Ct.; a C. Kemper Flintlock (classic Southern style .45); a Winchester 95 in .303 Brit; a Remington Model 25 in .32-20; and an early Model 94 in .32 Special. All these rifles, it turns out, shoot much better 'across' the chest. Meaning I'm going to have to learn a whole new shooting style for these types of guns. Which is fine. I love learning new things.

Just thought folks here would appreciate this! Fascinating rabbit hole I went down today and learned a lot... including why 'archaic' buttplates were still being put on rifles long after the Caplock era was over.

Any day you learn something is a good day!

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
So I learned something really interesting today... Facebook private discussion group called "Herschel House Long Rifles" for aficionados of contemporary long rifles.

The topic of 'deep crescent buttplates' came up... and the question was 'how to shoot them comfortably?' That led to a couple of the 'old timers' chiming in about the old 'Southern style' of shooting, especially small caliber rifles with rather 'heavy' barrels. .32, 40 and .45 barrels tend to be front heavy! The answer was a crescent butt plate.

My 'assumption' was that these rifles tended to be designed for stringy beanpole Scots-Irish Mountain folks, not 21st Century folks with huge shoulders/biceps/upper bodies (in comparison to our ancestors). Or that the deeply curved buttplates were for Scheutzen or 'strange positional' shooting used in those old matches. Nope... everything to do with the shooting stance, in large part to support a muzzle-heavy rifle. The Southern stance, which was not the classic 'weaver' style that we think of today... (Weaver is not just for handguns) is ideal for the type of rifles favored... long, small caliber front-heavy rifles.

The classic, flat buttplate shooting style we are all used to vs. the "Southern Style" is superbly illustrated in this video. With the rifle shot 'across your chest' making use of the curved buttplate.



The difference of putting the rifle in the crook of your arm and shooting 'across' your chest is really amazing... because with a lot of my old rifles I've been shooting them 'wrong' when it comes to using the ergonomics correctly. And this isn't just frontstuffers, but 'modern' rifles which offered rather deeply curved buttplates as an option well into the 20th Century. Why? Because customers used to shooting 'across the chest' wanted to order guns that fit the way they shot... not order guns that required them to re-learn shooting! So deep crescents were available well into the 20th century by special order... for shooters who shot 'across the chest.'

Here's some examples that I went off to play with during the "Fakebook" discussion. And damn if all of a sudden these rifles didn't 'come alive' in my hands. Feel better. Dry fire better. And I guarantee when fired, the crescent wouldn't be digging in to my shoulder... it would be riding on the bicep where it was perfectly comfortable.



View attachment 8151401

Top to bottom... late 19th century Percussion 'target' rifle from Ct.; a C. Kemper Flintlock (classic Southern style .45); a Winchester 95 in .303 Brit; a Remington Model 25 in .32-20; and an early Model 94 in .32 Special. All these rifles, it turns out, shoot much better 'across' the chest. Meaning I'm going to have to learn a whole new shooting style for these types of guns. Which is fine. I love learning new things.

Just thought folks here would appreciate this! Fascinating rabbit hole I went down today and learned a lot... including why 'archaic' buttplates were still being put on rifles long after the Caplock era was over.

Any day you learn something is a good day!

Cheers,

Sirhr


I bet that 1895 is a sexy monster. What caliber?
 
I bet that 1895 is a sexy monster. What caliber?

.303 brit. Kicks like a %$#@ing Mule. And hurts like hell.

Which is Why I posted it. Because it's one of the rifles that just leaves me black and blue. Now that I know how to shoulder it... I bet it's a pussycat!

Of note, it's a 'soon to go to Turnbull' to restore. It's been VERY badly re-blued and buffed. But mechanically excellent. Thinking I will get it engraved and matched to a Smith Schofeld that I am having done to match TR's Pistol. I think they would make an amazing pair.

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
“Front stuffer”

I believe late 70s production, 2nd generation View attachment 8151425View attachment 8151426View attachment 8151427
Actually Black Box, 1990's. And they are ABSOLUTELY superb guns and have gotten really, really valuable. I 'Almost' bought the whole set c. 1997. Would have cost me about $4K to buy one of each. Stupidly, I didn't. Today a 'whole set' is probably $30K as some of them are really spendy. They also shoot great. I only have a couple. I kick myself for not buying them all.

These are for all intents and purposes Colt Continuation guns. I think they even picked up at the end of the serial numbers.

That right there is a complete gem!!!!

Thanks for sharing!
 
.303 brit. Kicks like a %$#@ing Mule. And hurts like hell.

Which is Why I posted it. Because it's one of the rifles that just leaves me black and blue. Now that I know how to shoulder it... I bet it's a pussycat!

Of note, it's a 'soon to go to Turnbull' to restore. It's been VERY badly re-blued and buffed. But mechanically excellent. Thinking I will get it engraved and matched to a Smith Schofeld that I am having done to match TR's Pistol. I think they would make an amazing pair.

Cheers,

Sirhr
Stunning little rifles. Been on my list for a while along with tons of others. Maybe not in 303! Just picked up a 336 in 35 Remington last week, will get worked out this deer season I believe
 
I thought these were the 90s guns? Maybe I’m bassakward which happens to me a lot. View attachment 8151433
Those were also 1990's 'commemorative' or 'custom shop' pieces.

The "Black Box" were simply 'stock' guns that were done as continuation pieces. But the 1990's were sort of an era of Colt going crazy at the custom shop with SAA's, Black Powder and 1911's. They had to replace the sudden drop in sales after the AWB messed up their AR-15 line that was "Just" starting to take off when the AWB came in. So they went backwards.

The SAA's from that generation are gems as well. And they did a lot of custom shop stuff.

Is that cased set yours? Because... stunning!

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
Those were also 1990's 'commemorative' or 'custom shop' pieces.

The "Black Box" were simply 'stock' guns that were done as continuation pieces. But the 1990's were sort of an era of Colt going crazy at the custom shop with SAA's, Black Powder and 1911's. They had to replace the sudden drop in sales after the AWB messed up their AR-15 line that was "Just" starting to take off when the AWB came in. So they went backwards.

The SAA's from that generation are gems as well. And they did a lot of custom shop stuff.

Is that cased set yours? Because... stunning!

Cheers,

Sirhr
Yes, both are in my safe. Been there for a couple years and get taken out from time to time. Traded into both of them, did some research into them but apparently not enough. I’ll keep digging and learning slowly. Got a pair of K code 1962 Frontier blasters hiding in there somewhere, but don’t meet the criteria for this thread
 
Yes, both are in my safe. Been there for a couple years and get taken out from time to time. Traded into both of them, did some research into them but apparently not enough. I’ll keep digging and learning slowly. Got a pair of K code 1962 Frontier blasters hiding in there somewhere, but don’t meet the criteria for this thread
Colt Frontiers fit in here just fine, ameego!

Those were sort of a 'cut rate' SAA sold in the 1960's to appeal to the Gunsmoke, Ponderosa, Paladin Cowboy revival. A bunch of years ago, they went begging. $400 or so to 1-2K for ANY SAA. Yeah, well.... that's changed. Try and find a Frontier for less than a grand.

Even the little .22 Frontier Scout Colt's are spendy.

If it's old and says Colt... it's worthy.

The Frontier Scouts are almost indistinguishable from the SAA's. I never really knew the difference. Maybe some fit and finish? Roll stamps? They are literally the same gun.

Man, those are a couple of winning pieces!!! If they are consecutive, BTW, you can probably buy a car with the pair. Ok... a used car. Like a Kia. But still... amazing.

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
Not consecutive, but shipped to the same place in 1962. My guess is they were bought by the same dude, and kept in the dark until he found a box to put them in. The Buntline is 22wmr, and the other is LR. Both appear to be unfired minus what the factory did. No discoloration on the cylinder faces or breech cone.
57CE9259-E172-4111-AB8D-D8513CEE8464.jpeg
 
Crescent stock aren't bad because you almost have to shoot them the right way.

Remington Sporting stock, just awful all the time.

remington-hepburn-sporting-rifle-45-70-al3727.jpg



And if someone takes a Hepburn and basically makes it a .45-70 carbine, and then you think it's a good idea to make it a .45-90 and shoot 500grain bullets from it, it gets a little ouchy.

hep.jpg

4590.jpg
 
Last edited:
Actually Black Box, 1990's. And they are ABSOLUTELY superb guns and have gotten really, really valuable. I 'Almost' bought the whole set c. 1997. Would have cost me about $4K to buy one of each. Stupidly, I didn't. Today a 'whole set' is probably $30K as some of them are really spendy. They also shoot great. I only have a couple. I kick myself for not buying them all.

These are for all intents and purposes Colt Continuation guns. I think they even picked up at the end of the serial numbers.

That right there is a complete gem!!!!

Thanks for sharing!
Coming back to this. I was in the safe taking inventory today. The original price tag is still on this black box pistol I posted.
A48857D1-80AA-45AB-8C9B-243BD3767B16.jpeg