I used to shoot a local benchrest and reload for it. Back then the thing to do was neck size only. I am going to start relaoding for accuracy again and hear that people now think full length resize is more accurate. I know fads come and go, and that with time comes more knowledge, but just wondering what people here have found to work better. Yes the cases will all be used in a bolt action and the same rifle. I also know every rifle is diffrent. Thanks for the info.
- Thread starter ekaphoto
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Re: full length resize vs neck size only
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ekaphoto</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I used to shoot a local benchrest and reload for it. Back then the thing to do was neck size only. I am going to start relaoding for accuracy again and hear that people now think full length resize is more accurate. I know fads come and go, and that with time comes more knowledge, but just wondering what people here have found to work better. Yes the cases will all be used in a bolt action and the same rifle. I also know every rifle is diffrent. Thanks for the info. </div></div>
Opinions are all over the map on this. I don't see how shrinking a case back down makes it fit more snuggly in a chamber vs. neck sizing, as long as the bolt can be closed.
I shoulder bump as needed and use bushing dies, but I'm a hack.
Chris
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ekaphoto</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I used to shoot a local benchrest and reload for it. Back then the thing to do was neck size only. I am going to start relaoding for accuracy again and hear that people now think full length resize is more accurate. I know fads come and go, and that with time comes more knowledge, but just wondering what people here have found to work better. Yes the cases will all be used in a bolt action and the same rifle. I also know every rifle is diffrent. Thanks for the info. </div></div>
Opinions are all over the map on this. I don't see how shrinking a case back down makes it fit more snuggly in a chamber vs. neck sizing, as long as the bolt can be closed.
I shoulder bump as needed and use bushing dies, but I'm a hack.
Chris
Re: full length resize vs neck size only
If it's used for hunting or tactical match shooting, I FL size. I'll neck size my match belted cases to prolong case life, but will need a slight FL size after 2 firings. I like knowing the round will chamber over having neck-sized cases that are very firm or won't chamber.
If it's used for hunting or tactical match shooting, I FL size. I'll neck size my match belted cases to prolong case life, but will need a slight FL size after 2 firings. I like knowing the round will chamber over having neck-sized cases that are very firm or won't chamber.
Re: full length resize vs neck size only
The reason opinions are all over the shop is because people are all talking about different types of dies used for different types of actions etc .
You do what suits your situation and your dies and your gun and that may be different to what the the next guy needs .
The reason opinions are all over the shop is because people are all talking about different types of dies used for different types of actions etc .
You do what suits your situation and your dies and your gun and that may be different to what the the next guy needs .
Re: full length resize vs neck size only
My 2-cents on this one:
I have a couple of rifles - one a mil-surp .303 Brit, the other a 30-06 hunting rifle - for which I have, say, 500-pcs of brass each. This "dedicated" brass gets fired <span style="font-style: italic">only in those rifles</span> - no others of the same caliber.
Initially I full-length resized this brass, but now only neck-size it. N-sizing prolongs the brass life (especially w/ the .303), and I haven't encountered chambering issues yet. Again, this brass is not loaded up for rifles other than those two.
My 2-cents on this one:
I have a couple of rifles - one a mil-surp .303 Brit, the other a 30-06 hunting rifle - for which I have, say, 500-pcs of brass each. This "dedicated" brass gets fired <span style="font-style: italic">only in those rifles</span> - no others of the same caliber.
Initially I full-length resized this brass, but now only neck-size it. N-sizing prolongs the brass life (especially w/ the .303), and I haven't encountered chambering issues yet. Again, this brass is not loaded up for rifles other than those two.
Re: full length resize vs neck size only
even with dedicated brass as the cases get several firings on them they expand differently causing some to fit tighter than others. By a "limited" FL sizing to .002 under fired size you will get better consistency from round to round and this makes for better overall accuracy IMHO
even with dedicated brass as the cases get several firings on them they expand differently causing some to fit tighter than others. By a "limited" FL sizing to .002 under fired size you will get better consistency from round to round and this makes for better overall accuracy IMHO
Re: full length resize vs neck size only
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vinconco</div><div class="ubbcode-body">even with dedicated brass as the cases get several firings on them they expand differently causing some to fit tighter than others. By a "limited" FL sizing to .002 under fired size you will get better consistency from round to round and this makes for better overall accuracy IMHO </div></div>
+1... The first year I shot benchrest I figured out pretty quick the if you forgot what cycle the brass is on you can end up fighting with the bolt. That pretty much throws your bag set out the window. I went to full length sizing to move the shoulder back .002" and left it at that. I have carried that to everything I load for now.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vinconco</div><div class="ubbcode-body">even with dedicated brass as the cases get several firings on them they expand differently causing some to fit tighter than others. By a "limited" FL sizing to .002 under fired size you will get better consistency from round to round and this makes for better overall accuracy IMHO </div></div>
+1... The first year I shot benchrest I figured out pretty quick the if you forgot what cycle the brass is on you can end up fighting with the bolt. That pretty much throws your bag set out the window. I went to full length sizing to move the shoulder back .002" and left it at that. I have carried that to everything I load for now.
Re: full length resize vs neck size only
" I also know every rifle is diffrent. "
That observation is the core of the only usable answer. Doesn't really matter what my rife likes, your's ain't mine so YOU will have to find the answer to your question for yourself and you already recognise it. ??
" I also know every rifle is diffrent. "
That observation is the core of the only usable answer. Doesn't really matter what my rife likes, your's ain't mine so YOU will have to find the answer to your question for yourself and you already recognise it. ??
Re: full length resize vs neck size only
I neck only size with bushings most of the time. This preserves brass life at a very small penalty in overall accuracy. How small? Well my standard long range load typically shoots one 5-shot group in the 0.3s two 5-shot groups in the 4s or 5s and one 5-shot group in the 0.6s per box of 20.
If I were to FL size I might be able to shave off 0.05" from the average group size. This kind of gain would be well worth while if I were benchrest shooting, but for tactical purposes holds no advantage.
I neck only size with bushings most of the time. This preserves brass life at a very small penalty in overall accuracy. How small? Well my standard long range load typically shoots one 5-shot group in the 0.3s two 5-shot groups in the 4s or 5s and one 5-shot group in the 0.6s per box of 20.
If I were to FL size I might be able to shave off 0.05" from the average group size. This kind of gain would be well worth while if I were benchrest shooting, but for tactical purposes holds no advantage.
Re: full length resize vs neck size only
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This kind of gain would be well worth while if I were benchrest shooting, but for tactical purposes holds no advantage. </div></div>
I would think for "Tactical" purposes you would want ammo that chambered easily and without doubt.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This kind of gain would be well worth while if I were benchrest shooting, but for tactical purposes holds no advantage. </div></div>
I would think for "Tactical" purposes you would want ammo that chambered easily and without doubt.
Re: full length resize vs neck size only
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vinconco</div><div class="ubbcode-body">even with dedicated brass as the cases get several firings on them they expand differently causing some to fit tighter than others. By a "limited" FL sizing to .002 under fired size you will get better consistency from round to round and this makes for better overall accuracy IMHO </div></div>
+1... The first year I shot benchrest I figured out pretty quick the if you forgot what cycle the brass is on you can end up fighting with the bolt. That pretty much throws your bag set out the window. I went to full length sizing to move the shoulder back .002" and left it at that. I have carried that to everything I load for now. </div></div>
More confusion , unless you describe exactly what kind of die you are using and consider to be a full length sizing die then more confusion is created.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vinconco</div><div class="ubbcode-body">even with dedicated brass as the cases get several firings on them they expand differently causing some to fit tighter than others. By a "limited" FL sizing to .002 under fired size you will get better consistency from round to round and this makes for better overall accuracy IMHO </div></div>
+1... The first year I shot benchrest I figured out pretty quick the if you forgot what cycle the brass is on you can end up fighting with the bolt. That pretty much throws your bag set out the window. I went to full length sizing to move the shoulder back .002" and left it at that. I have carried that to everything I load for now. </div></div>
More confusion , unless you describe exactly what kind of die you are using and consider to be a full length sizing die then more confusion is created.
Re: full length resize vs neck size only
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vinconco</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This kind of gain would be well worth while if I were benchrest shooting, but for tactical purposes holds no advantage. </div></div>
I would think for "Tactical" purposes you would want ammo that chambered easily and without doubt.
</div></div>
That is exactly correct , you can't risk tight chambering rounds it could cause a failure in an emergency situation .
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vinconco</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This kind of gain would be well worth while if I were benchrest shooting, but for tactical purposes holds no advantage. </div></div>
I would think for "Tactical" purposes you would want ammo that chambered easily and without doubt.
</div></div>
That is exactly correct , you can't risk tight chambering rounds it could cause a failure in an emergency situation .
Re: full length resize vs neck size only
Country More confusion said:
Re: full length resize vs neck size only
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Redding "S" bushing FL die
I had been using a Forster bushing "bump" die but found that with my chamber the Redding S FL bushing die worked better. I guess that in some chambers just setting back the shoulder isnt enough. I want the bolt to "just" close on the round without resistance. </div></div>
The Redding S die is a vast improvement on the old standard Full length dies and as the neck is sized by an removable bushing and not a fixed part of the die as in the old type dies it does a superior job in all areas. Compared to older dies.
You may have needed a small base bump die or something was not quite right for your chamber that the S die fixed so it worked the best for you . That's what it is all about finding what works for you. No one has all the definative answers in every case.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Redding "S" bushing FL die
I had been using a Forster bushing "bump" die but found that with my chamber the Redding S FL bushing die worked better. I guess that in some chambers just setting back the shoulder isnt enough. I want the bolt to "just" close on the round without resistance. </div></div>
The Redding S die is a vast improvement on the old standard Full length dies and as the neck is sized by an removable bushing and not a fixed part of the die as in the old type dies it does a superior job in all areas. Compared to older dies.
You may have needed a small base bump die or something was not quite right for your chamber that the S die fixed so it worked the best for you . That's what it is all about finding what works for you. No one has all the definative answers in every case.
Re: full length resize vs neck size only
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Country</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vinconco</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This kind of gain would be well worth while if I were benchrest shooting, but for tactical purposes holds no advantage. </div></div>
I would think for "Tactical" purposes you would want ammo that chambered easily and without doubt.
</div></div>
That is exactly correct , you can't risk tight chambering rounds it could cause a failure in an emergency situation . </div></div>
I agree, in my reload cycle, eachcase goes through the RCBS cas micrometer at least twice, so that the sholder position is known to be such that the cartrige will chamber easily. So, even though I neck only size, I still measure the sholder position before and after the (NO) sizing die.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Country</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vinconco</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This kind of gain would be well worth while if I were benchrest shooting, but for tactical purposes holds no advantage. </div></div>
I would think for "Tactical" purposes you would want ammo that chambered easily and without doubt.
</div></div>
That is exactly correct , you can't risk tight chambering rounds it could cause a failure in an emergency situation . </div></div>
I agree, in my reload cycle, eachcase goes through the RCBS cas micrometer at least twice, so that the sholder position is known to be such that the cartrige will chamber easily. So, even though I neck only size, I still measure the sholder position before and after the (NO) sizing die.
Re: full length resize vs neck size only
I had a similar question a while back. trawling the net you get lots of repeated percieved wisdom but i found it hard to work out what the good guys are really doing now.
Eventually i thought the equipment companies would be working with some of the key competitors and would understand the emerging trends so i spoke with redding's technical guys.
They told me that the top guys partially full length resize the case (not touching the neck) then neck resize. They may be bumping the shoulder by only a couple of thou.
I went down that route with a redding body die a lee collet die and (eventually) a redding competition seating die. I applied a bit of production eng to the process and measured what the result were. I do find that I get much less runout when the case has been partially resized rather than neck sizing only.
Does this translate to much better accuracy? My sako 75 varmint in 308 (in a rest) will shoot 3/4 moa with decent factory hunting rounds (whatever they are) and 0.4moa with low runout reloads.
I am not convinced that I get the best results out the lee die, the competition seater did make the process much more consistent as did a bit of a squeeze on the case.
I had a similar question a while back. trawling the net you get lots of repeated percieved wisdom but i found it hard to work out what the good guys are really doing now.
Eventually i thought the equipment companies would be working with some of the key competitors and would understand the emerging trends so i spoke with redding's technical guys.
They told me that the top guys partially full length resize the case (not touching the neck) then neck resize. They may be bumping the shoulder by only a couple of thou.
I went down that route with a redding body die a lee collet die and (eventually) a redding competition seating die. I applied a bit of production eng to the process and measured what the result were. I do find that I get much less runout when the case has been partially resized rather than neck sizing only.
Does this translate to much better accuracy? My sako 75 varmint in 308 (in a rest) will shoot 3/4 moa with decent factory hunting rounds (whatever they are) and 0.4moa with low runout reloads.
I am not convinced that I get the best results out the lee die, the competition seater did make the process much more consistent as did a bit of a squeeze on the case.
Re: full length resize vs neck size only
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chanonry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had a similar question a while back. trawling the net you get lots of repeated percieved wisdom but i found it hard to work out what the good guys are really doing now.
Eventually i thought the equipment companies would be working with some of the key competitors and would understand the emerging trends so i spoke with redding's technical guys.
They told me that the top guys partially full length resize the case (not touching the neck) then neck resize. They may be bumping the shoulder by only a couple of thou.
I went down that route with a redding body die a lee collet die and (eventually) a redding competition seating die. I applied a bit of production eng to the process and measured what the result were. I do find that I get much less runout when the case has been partially resized rather than neck sizing only.
Does this translate to much better accuracy? My sako 75 varmint in 308 (in a rest) will shoot 3/4 moa with decent factory hunting rounds (whatever they are) and 0.4moa with low runout reloads.
I am not convinced that I get the best results out the lee die, the competition seater did make the process much more consistent as did a bit of a squeeze on the case.
</div></div>
Basicly what I have been trying to convey since I started on this forum .
Only difference is for civilian use I feel you neck size only until your cases get a bit tight then use the body die.
However slight chamber differences such as straightness can alter the sizing regime . That may make a slightly more body sized case shoot better than the tighter fitting case.
You have to experiment with your gun and chamber . However seperating the two sizing operations into neck size and body size is a good thing for most bolt guns.
However there is a fair bit of difference between different disciplines on what dies they use , load techniques and presses etc.
As far as civilian tactical goes , the authorities frown on handloads from individuals but may practise with handloads from their own shops that duplicate the ballistics of what ever commercial load they usually issue for operations.
Military usually use what ever ammo is allocated by the service involved for that purpose . Which may be a special match quality load . However where competitions are involved anything could happen.
Also who knows what they carry in them little black bags to the layup , sniper position.
We are still getting confusion when the term " full length " is used in conjunction with a body die size operation.
If it don't touch the neck area then its not a full length operation .
The term full length should only be used to describe a die that sizes body and neck at the same time.
Have you tried partial neck sizing with the Lee collet die . Machine up a washer that you place over the case onto the shell holder . This reduces the length of the neck sized. What this does in combination with the Body die is creat a small second shoulder that is never sized . This helps center the case at all times even if you have oversized the case body a bit.
It works well for me with neck turned cases in a factory chamber. Helping to reduce the extra neck clearance caused by turning down the neck to a smaller diameter and putting it in a factory chamber.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chanonry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had a similar question a while back. trawling the net you get lots of repeated percieved wisdom but i found it hard to work out what the good guys are really doing now.
Eventually i thought the equipment companies would be working with some of the key competitors and would understand the emerging trends so i spoke with redding's technical guys.
They told me that the top guys partially full length resize the case (not touching the neck) then neck resize. They may be bumping the shoulder by only a couple of thou.
I went down that route with a redding body die a lee collet die and (eventually) a redding competition seating die. I applied a bit of production eng to the process and measured what the result were. I do find that I get much less runout when the case has been partially resized rather than neck sizing only.
Does this translate to much better accuracy? My sako 75 varmint in 308 (in a rest) will shoot 3/4 moa with decent factory hunting rounds (whatever they are) and 0.4moa with low runout reloads.
I am not convinced that I get the best results out the lee die, the competition seater did make the process much more consistent as did a bit of a squeeze on the case.
</div></div>
Basicly what I have been trying to convey since I started on this forum .
Only difference is for civilian use I feel you neck size only until your cases get a bit tight then use the body die.
However slight chamber differences such as straightness can alter the sizing regime . That may make a slightly more body sized case shoot better than the tighter fitting case.
You have to experiment with your gun and chamber . However seperating the two sizing operations into neck size and body size is a good thing for most bolt guns.
However there is a fair bit of difference between different disciplines on what dies they use , load techniques and presses etc.
As far as civilian tactical goes , the authorities frown on handloads from individuals but may practise with handloads from their own shops that duplicate the ballistics of what ever commercial load they usually issue for operations.
Military usually use what ever ammo is allocated by the service involved for that purpose . Which may be a special match quality load . However where competitions are involved anything could happen.
Also who knows what they carry in them little black bags to the layup , sniper position.
We are still getting confusion when the term " full length " is used in conjunction with a body die size operation.
If it don't touch the neck area then its not a full length operation .
The term full length should only be used to describe a die that sizes body and neck at the same time.
Have you tried partial neck sizing with the Lee collet die . Machine up a washer that you place over the case onto the shell holder . This reduces the length of the neck sized. What this does in combination with the Body die is creat a small second shoulder that is never sized . This helps center the case at all times even if you have oversized the case body a bit.
It works well for me with neck turned cases in a factory chamber. Helping to reduce the extra neck clearance caused by turning down the neck to a smaller diameter and putting it in a factory chamber.
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