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GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

J

joe_skeeter

Private
Minuteman
Aug 20, 2010
42
0
60
Jacksonville, Florida
I recently received my GAP Crusader in .308 and could not be any more pleased. I have been following GAP’s recommended break-in process. When I started shooting five shot strings between cleaning I also started my load development. On shots 36-40 I became a believer in the 3/8 moa guarantee. I think GAP’s guarantee is for a three shot groups, but the gun is capable of more. I know that everyone who already owns a GAP knows this guarantee is reality but I am very excited about this gun.

scan0002.jpg

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GapCrusader308002.jpg
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

This is inflammatory and really serves no purpose. There are many custom rifles that will do this.

I'm the biggest GAP whore out there but I know this will not end well. I would remove the "guarantee" language.
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

Great looking set-up! Glad you're liking your GAP rifle, and it certainly seems to work for you! GREAT group! Thanks for sharing.
smile.gif
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

OK. I notice that each of the 5 rounds is faster than the last. Also, you wrote in that the SD is 63.54 FPS. Also, the velocities you have written down seem very high for the 168 bullets. All this to say that I think your GAP may be much better at being a rifle than your chronograph is being a chronograph. Those numbers appear to be very misleading IMHO.
I would say that I have never known of GAP misleading anyone on the guarantee. It isn't just a gimmick for them. Your rifle appears to be no exception. And it looks good too.
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

well the FPS numbers are what the chrony reported and calculated. I measured each load to exactly 41 grains. I was using brand new brass and maybe that had an effect. I don't know why I had a stddev of 63.54.
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK. I notice that each of the 5 rounds is faster than the last. Also, you wrote in that the SD is 63.54 FPS. Also, the velocities you have written down seem very high for the 168 bullets. All this to say that I think your GAP may be much better at being a rifle than your chronograph is being a chronograph. Those numbers appear to be very misleading IMHO.
I would say that I have never known of GAP misleading anyone on the guarantee. It isn't just a gimmick for them. Your rifle appears to be no exception. And it looks good too. </div></div>

Ya those suckers are movin'

Hodgdon lists 42.0 gr. at 2630 fps. Load Data
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

Just saying, 41 gr Benchmark with the 168 SMK is not even max according to Hodgdon data. They got 2630 FPS at 42 grain max. I don't see you getting 400+/- FPS more just using RP 7 1/2 primer and Lapua Palma brass.
What was the ambient temp that day?
Also, In my experience, we loose a little velocity down closer to sea level.
I am not saying you should change anything. The rifle looks like it shoots great. I would recheck my load on a bud's chrono. It will make a big difference in your "dope" if your chrono is wrong.
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

Dammit, Math. I saw the 3/8" guarantee and was skeptical like you. Now its settled. I'm going to get one. The only thing I'm not a particular fan of is the stock finish. I wonder if GAP would be offended if I asked them to change it....
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: halcyon575</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dammit, Math. I saw the 3/8" guarantee and was skeptical like you. Now its settled. I'm going to get one. The only thing I'm not a particular fan of is the stock finish. I wonder if GAP would be offended if I asked them to change it.... </div></div>

They will do just about anything you want done and do it well. At least that has been my experience.
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

Didn't think about it, but bricktop might be on to something. For my senior design project in college, we built an air cannon for testing composite pieces. One thing we had to do was register the speed before and after impact/penetration. So we bought a cronograph and put it at the muzzle to get the before impact speed. We calculated at 110 psi the ball bearing we shot should've been going about 300-400 m/s (prof loved metric). We were getting consistent readings of 700+ m/s. So either the calculations were WAY off, the formula was wrong, or something else was in play.

When we looked at the video we noticed a "puff" coming from the muzzle when fired. This was water in the air forming a small cloud from the muzzle "blast" of low pressure air. We think that is what the chronograph was reading. The slight change in air pressure and density caused the chronograph to trigger prematurely.

I dunno if that was what happened with you. Just thought I'd share my experience.
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

with my hospitaller i shot a .118" group last weekend and then a .175" group later in the day after shooting about 50 rnds at steel with a hot barrel so there serious about what they say these guns will shoot thats for dang sure.
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

Never bought one of the "guaranteed" GAPs but have gotten some good accurate rifles from them in full builds and rebarrels. Easily 1/2 MOA or under. I have been more than happy with my GAP rifles.

First .308 rebarrel from them, 5 shots 100 yards
Breakingroup.jpg

400 yards, 5 shots
PB120490.jpg



3rd rebarrel on .308, 4 shots
PC220045.jpg

5 shots(4 in small cluster) at 300 yards
P3160131.jpg


.243, 5 shots at 100 yards during a match
P2240123.jpg

5 shots first time out with it
P1010466.jpg

5 shots, 100 yards
P1010113-1.jpg

3 shots at 500 yards in a match
norcal_tbrc08_09.jpg


6.5 Creedmoor full build with factory ammo at 100 yards when changing lots. Old lot 5 shot group on left and new lot 10 shot group on right.
P7080622.jpg

10 shots 300 yards
P1010017-3.jpg
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

Rob - I remain unconvinced. Do you have any more pictures?
wink.gif
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

I get a lot of GAP .243 rifles in my reloading classes. More so than any other caliber. They have all been absolute hammers.

If there is an accuracy guarantee, it is a guarantee for the rifle. Not your ability to shoot it.
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

Rob carries wallet sizes of those pictures around with him to, he's like a proud father when he breaks them out.
laugh.gif
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

You had me at 3/8 MOA...lol. Mine is capable of sub 1/4MOA when I'm able.
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rob - I remain unconvinced. Do you have any more pictures?
wink.gif
</div></div>

Actually no.
smile.gif
I don't take alot of pictures as I don't shoot alot of groups but when I do I try to remember to get some that show what the rifle can do for threads like this.
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

The chrony was set about 4 feet from the muzzle. I was having a problem with the plastic sun-shades being blown off the chrony when I shot, but had that corrected by the time I shot the last string above. It could be the chrony.
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mathmatic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The chrony was set about <span style="font-size: 17pt"><span style="color: #CC0000">4</span></span> feet from the muzzle. I was having a problem with the plastic sun-shades being blown off the chrony when I shot, but had that corrected by the time I shot the last string above. It could be the chrony. </div></div>



add about 11 foot to that............
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

500meter338LM001.jpg


I wouldnt trade a hat full of .3" groups at 100 yards for this 10 shot group at 500 meters with my GAP .338LM.
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

I'd say the 4 foot chrono distance is a slight problem. 12-15 foot from the muzzle will correct the issue.
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

I know one thing for sure; my GAP will outshoot me any day of the week. I really don't care much about the 3/8 guarantee because there is a good chance that I can't do it but someone that is more experienced and a better shot could. I know I am paying for their craftsmanship and I am fine with that. I have got to be realistic about my capabilities.
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

Great groups, I think you really found a sweet spot in the loads.
I would really reconsider getting different Crono readings, as these are about 400 fps tooo fast.
After you get tired of punching tiny groups at 100 yards, load up some 175 SMk's and head to the 500-1,000 range.
great shooting,
SScott
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

the chrony in my opinion is worthless, I wouldnt use the results from one to wipe my ass. Get a good chronograph so that the results mean something when you get them. Great rifle you got there, enjoy it, it will serve you well.

mike
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

Mathmatic in the chrono world the SD you have noted is the ES 'extreme spread' not standard deviation 'SD'.
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mark S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mathmatic in the chrono world the SD you have noted is the ES 'extreme spread' not standard deviation 'SD'. </div></div>

Incorrect. The ES is 145.20fps.
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tango__Down</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mark S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mathmatic in the chrono world the SD you have noted is the ES 'extreme spread' not standard deviation 'SD'. </div></div>

Incorrect. The ES is 145.20fps. </div></div>

I did not add up and divide, I was going by "STD DEV 65.54" noted on his data and assumed chrono. That is one big SD if velocity.
Something mathmatic and over my head, pun intended.
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SFC Carpentier jr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is just one of my groups from my GAP 260. I am not sure about a 3/8 MOA guarantee, but when I do my part this is what my GAP shoots.

260.JPG
</div></div>


You realize the group needs to be 5 shots to be valid, not 1.

oh wait... haha.

I had a crusader and that thing shot crazy tight.
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

I am planning on getting a Crusader once I sell another toy. Good to see the shooting these guns are capable of. But I don't think there has really been much doubt as to the accuracy of a GAP rifle.
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't take alot of pictures as I don't shoot alot of groups but when I do I try to remember to get some that show what the rifle can do for threads like this. </div></div>

dos-equis-stay-thisty.jpg

"I don't always shoot groups or take pictures...
but when I do, I prefer .25"
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RicosRevenge</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't take alot of pictures as I don't shoot alot of groups but when I do I try to remember to get some that show what the rifle can do for threads like this. </div></div>

dos-equis-stay-thisty.jpg

"I don't always shoot groups or take pictures...
but when I do, I prefer .25" </div></div>

Right Click, Save. Nicely done.
laugh.gif
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rob - I remain unconvinced. Do you have any more pictures?
wink.gif
</div></div>Hahaha yeah Rob, I mean damn could't you post some holes worth looking at...Nice shooting
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RicosRevenge</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't take alot of pictures as I don't shoot alot of groups but when I do I try to remember to get some that show what the rifle can do for threads like this. </div></div>

dos-equis-stay-thisty.jpg

"I don't always shoot groups or take pictures...
but when I do, I prefer .25" </div></div>

I've met that guy!
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

Dude, I'm around a lot of sports/public figures and I don't get giddy ever... but that would be one picture I would HAVE to jump in on!
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

That's some funny shit Rico! LOL
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

Nice rifle, I the same rifle with NF scope and could not be happier. GAP is by far my most accurate rifle.
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

The crony fps were in question by several people and for good reason that they were wrong. I have firgured out what went wrong. The crony is a clam shell device and I had not fully opened the device to it's locked open position. The correct fps for 41 gr of Benchmark are below. Thanks to all for pointing this problem out to me.

scan00011.jpg
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

That's more like it...
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

This is a great thread, Lets see some more GAP groupings if you have any. I love the Crusader and am trying to see if the Crusader would be a better fit for me than the new Thunder Ranch GAP gun..
 
Re: GAP 3/8 MOA Guarantee fiction or reality?

I only count 10 shot strings. NO idea what my Crusader will do with 3 shots. Do it enough, and I guess a single hole would be possible. I'm using store-bought ammo. Just getting my reloading gear set up.

134037577.jpg
 
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