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Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

nickw

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Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 15, 2003
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Western MA
In the LR rifle/sniper matches, what percentage of shooters are running gas guns? Seems like the % is pretty low and was wondering why?

Are there matches where gas guns are not allowed?

What are the advantages/disadvantages of the gas gun v. bolt gun in these matches?

I've got a GAP TIS in .308 and a Remington R25 (DPMS .308). Considering which to make my game gun and rebarrel in a better game caliber.

I've shot quite a bit of 3gun, USPSA, and IDPA and am familar/comfortable with the capabilites of the AR in .223 out to 500 yards. Leaning toward making the Remington the game gun, but hoping for some input from those in the know.

Thanks,
Nick-
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

it takes a lot to drive a gas gun ...and be good with it out long.
a great guy a couple years ago did the Cup and spanked everyone with one....George built it.....
David Tubb will tell you he took a national title with one....but will not do it again, ....says it took him 3x the effort to do it.

gas guns tear up brass...if you reload its problematic.

it can be done....but you will work at it more so than with a bolt gun
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

I believe that gas guns are allowed in most tactical style matches.A small % for sure.

I'd think that a gas gun in certain stages like with par times and USPSA type scoring in it would be an advantage.

I'll be trying one out in the near future and will know better after a few matches.

Seems to me that more time aiming and less time racking a bolt would be sound doctrine.

6.5 Creedmoor was designed around the AR-10 type frame platforms and would be a good choice especially if you don't reload.243 win would be a good choice too.

Bolt guns are typically more accurate with better triggers and have a faster lock time.So maybe someone more knowledgeable will comment.

Steve
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

"Seems like the % is pretty low and was wondering why?"

Because they want to win.
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...
gas guns tear up brass...if you reload its problematic....</div></div>

If my brass is giving you problems,I"ll take it back....
laugh.gif
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ssgp2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...
gas guns tear up brass...if you reload its problematic....</div></div>

If my brass is giving you problems,I"ll take it back....
laugh.gif
</div></div>

There is about 55 people falling out of their chairs right now. Well played, Sir.
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

At Rifles Only you will loose a loaded round everytime you need to move to another shooting location.
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe that gas guns are allowed in most tactical style matches.A small % for sure.

I'd think that a gas gun in certain stages like with par times and USPSA type scoring in it would be an advantage.

I'll be trying one out in the near future and will know better after a few matches.

Seems to me that more time aiming and less time racking a bolt would be sound doctrine.

6.5 Creedmoor was designed around the AR-10 type frame platforms and would be a good choice especially if you don't reload.243 win would be a good choice too.

Bolt guns are typically more accurate with better triggers and have a faster lock time.So maybe someone more knowledgeable will comment.

Steve</div></div>

I thought there would be some time savings on follow up shots, transitions, and par-time type stages with the gas gun, as you said.

6.5creedmore was actually the caliber I was thinking of for my gas gun.

Thanks!
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At Rifles Only you will loose a loaded round everytime you need to move to another shooting location.</div></div>

I was wondering if these matches let you move with a loaded gun? In 3gun we run/move from shooting positions with loaded rifles. If you have to drop the magazine and clear the chamber of a gas gun every time you move, that would be a real disadvantage. Thanks.
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gilgamesh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some interesting and, at times, painful reading on the subject of gas vs bolt: http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=841406</div></div>

Painful is right.......I read through all 14 pages with the majority discussing if the bullet is still in the bbl. when the bolt unlocks....there was some good info on follow through and issues with first and last round poi changes w/gas guns.
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Seems like the % is pretty low and was wondering why?"

Because they want to win.</div></div>

Thank you for that insightful reply...
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

I've been wanting to get into a gap ar10 since I left rifles only a couple months ago.bullets in the barrel as the bolt cycles aside, What I know about the gas vs the bolt gun is from what I have seen. They are every bit as accurate as the bolt guns. I ran a 20 inch gap that was a hammer at 1000 and a 16 incher that had no problems at 800 on 8inch plate. Imo the fast follow up without disturbing the position was a huge plus. Seems to me the .308 belongs in a gas platform. I know If I ever buy another bolt gun it will be a magnum caliber. As more people get a chance to see what gap built or properly tuned gas gun will do maybe we'll see more gas guns at comps in the future...if they are still available.
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

We have a GAP .308 gas gun built on a DPMS reciever, here at work. It has an 18" bbl with a YHM suppressor. Truely an amazing weapon. The accuarcy is amazing and with the suppressor, the gun hardly moves. I had no idea how much recoil and muzzle lift a suppressor sucked off. As I stated in my original post, I have a stock R25 .308 and it is literally like night and day compared to the GAP set up. It was this rifle that got me thinking about running one in the LR Tactical Matches, but in 6.5 creedmore. Dropping the mag and clearing the chamber between shooting positions, would suck though.
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

6.5 creedmore on the gap ar10 would be very interesting to see. A bad ass game gun! Btw at least at R.O. everyone is mag out bolt back between firing positions (including bolt guns) gas guns just lose a round. No biggie though I believe it was less than ten rounds at the last comp I was at.
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

If it were a fixed # of targets per station,that you were only allowed to engage one shot each,then you could load only that many rounds per mag.Then that way the bolt carrier would already be locked back when it's time to move.So no messing with pulling it back manually.

Steve
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

Yeah you could do that it wouldve taken 6 or 7 mags at the last bash, it could definately be fast.
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nick W.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We have a GAP .308 gas gun built on a DPMS reciever, here at work. It has an 18" bbl with a YHM suppressor. Truely an amazing weapon. The accuarcy is amazing and with the suppressor, the gun hardly moves. I had no idea how much recoil and muzzle lift a suppressor sucked off. As I stated in my original post, I have a stock R25 .308 and it is literally like night and day compared to the GAP set up. It was this rifle that got me thinking about running one in the LR Tactical Matches, but in 6.5 creedmore. Dropping the mag and clearing the chamber between shooting positions, would suck though. </div></div>

I was not aware that a suppressor "sucks off" recoil and muzzle lift; then again I have no experience with suppressors. I just thought they were for sound supression.

If you are going to look at getting something in a 6.5, you might want to call it by its proper name; 6.5 Creedmoor, not creedmore. Here is a little story on how that range got its name.

Gasguns can be just as accurate as bolt rifles for the purposes you described, but if there is a huge penalty for using such a rifle in competition because these are not realistic, then I see no reason to use a gasgun. Yes, I understand the need for safety, but I also hear the concept of train as you fight. I can just see someone who has been competing at Rifles Only dumping his mag and pulling back the bolt everytime he moves positions. This could be a problem in real life.

So, if instead of benefiting from the advantages of a semi-auto, you actually have to do a lot more work because of it, you do the math.
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nick W.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We have a GAP .308 gas gun built on a DPMS reciever, here at work. It has an 18" bbl with a YHM suppressor. Truely an amazing weapon. The accuarcy is amazing and with the suppressor, the gun hardly moves. I had no idea how much recoil and muzzle lift a suppressor sucked off. As I stated in my original post, I have a stock R25 .308 and it is literally like night and day compared to the GAP set up. It was this rifle that got me thinking about running one in the LR Tactical Matches, but in 6.5 creedmore. Dropping the mag and clearing the chamber between shooting positions, would suck though. </div></div>

I can just see someone who has been competing at Rifles Only dumping his mag and pulling back the bolt everytime he moves positions. This could be a problem in real life.

</div></div>

You have to do the same thing with a bolt rifle there, and pretty much everywhere else I have shot.
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

I was in the pits at 1000yd a coupla years back when a friend made the effort at The Jeff Cooper 1000yd Challenge with a GAP AR10. The only real problem was that his zero was off by about a foot left and a foot low, but the rounds printed a very acceptable group during the effort.

Like all questions of this sort, the rifle is only part of the equation, but the GAP AR10's performance, under match conditions, absolutely sells me on the rifle.

Greg
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches


I'm with Greg on this one. It's more the guy driving the rifle than the rifle it's self. I have a Noveske built AR-10 and I'm planing on running it in some up coming matches.

Besides, the majority of the shots you are going to take at a match will be under 500 yards. If your rifle will shoot under 1 moa you should be fine. Granted, a gas gun can be a bear to work where you are changing stages a lot, and having to eject rounds and install chamber flags. But, it will make up for it's self if you have a multiple targets or movers stage.
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

Our local matches are usually setup to eliminate "gaming" angles. Gasgun rules are bolt locked back and mag out when moving (mag out because a fall can drop the bolt and a slamfire could occur). Boltgun rules are bolt open on the move.
Thus, plenty of the edge is evened out. I shot my SPR last match and did about the same as I would have with my boltgun, but there weren't alot of changing position stages.

I have a "tactical bolt release" on the way from DPMS, and I plan on utilizing it to ride the bolt release manually with my off hand thumb on my last shot prior to moving, that way I can drop the mag without losing a loaded round and not waste time locking my bolt back manually. Time will tell how it works out.
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was not aware that a suppressor "sucks off" recoil and muzzle lift; then again I have no experience with suppressors. I just thought they were for sound supression.</div></div>

That's funny, "I have never used a suppressor", but feel the need to comment about a suppressor,
smile.gif


FYI, suppressors are one of the best muzzle breaks you can buy, and remember with full charge centerfire cartridge they are only reducing the sound a bit, not exactly "suppressing" in the Hollywood sense of the word, however they are reducing a lot of the felt recoil and muzzleblast.
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

I come here for education so thank you for setting me straight. I thought suppressors were for reducing (not eliminating) noise. I see that they reduce the dB by about the same amount as my earmuffs, maybe a little more (32-35dB seems to be about the average, my muffs are 31dB.)

I thought devices to tame recoil and muzzle lift were called brakes. Now I know that suppressors don't do much for sound supression and that devices that reduce felt recoil are called breaks.

I can't help but wonder why suppressors require a federal stamp and in my area at least. the require the signature of an LEO permitting me to have one.
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

supressors can be very quiet with the use of subsonic ammo.
For the purposes of most here they will reduce the noise, recoil and muzzle lift. For the purposes of alot here (that play on 2 way ranges) they will mask muzzle flash and mask the audible signature of the weapon so folks on the receiving end will have a hard time pinpointing where the shot came from.
They require a tax stamp in the states because its the law, and the necessity of the signature of the chief LEO in your AO lends veracity to the assumption that you will not be using it for illegal acts.
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

My question has more to do about what a suppressor allows you to do when performing illegal acts since the noise suppression is not like Hollywood would have us believe. In other words, why is there a law?
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My question has more to do about what a suppressor allows you to do when performing illegal acts since the noise suppression is not like Hollywood would have us believe. In other words, why is there a law?</div></div>

The problem with the effectiveness of a suppressor for silencing the sound signature of a firearm is when it is used on a cartridge that pushes the projectile at a velocity that exceeds the speed of sound. With such cartridges, the bullet will still make a very audible sound due to the breaking of the sonic barrier. These rounds also typically burn much more powder than a sub-sonic round, and as such there is a greater muzzle blast to be contained by the suppressor. Now pair a suppressor with sub-sonic ammunition with a lesser powder charge, and you can have a very quiet weapon. Sub-sonic cartridges are commonly found among pistols, which is where the concern comes from by law enforcement. However, if you have not shot a rifle with a suppressor, you may not understand how much more enjoyable they are to shoot, even despite the lack of complete silence.

Dave
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

Now a muzzle brake works by diverting a portion of the hot pressurized gases back on either side of the barrel. These gases seem to act as a jet pushing the rifle forward or rather, retaring the rearward travel of the rifle under recoil. Muzzle flip is addressed the same way with slits ut on top of the barrel just before the muzzle, as an example. (Magnaport.)

One of the bad aspects of a muzzle brake is the increased noise back on either side of the shooter, which is one reason they are banned from NRA competition and disliked by folks shooting alongside a brake-equiped rifle.

So, how does a suppressor act as a brake if it does not divert the gases rearward or up? I'm baffled.
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

So, how does a suppressor act as a brake if it does not divert the gases rearward or up? I'm baffled. </div></div>

You sir are a cunning linguist........
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

The gas is diverted to the sides and the rear, it just takes place inside of the shell of the can. Have you looked at some of the baffle designs that are out there? They all divert gas, this is part of the process for reducing the noise. Plus, doesn't it makes sense that with a suppressor on, there will be less rearward thrust on the muzzle then non-suppressed? The gas is cooler, and less pressurized as it exits the suppressor than when it would exit the muzzle... that alone would reduce the muzzle blast and felt recoil, not even taking into account the defelection of the gas by the baffles

DD
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

I'm not a fan of gas guns for LR but have to admit a well built gas gun can do the job...

For purposes of practicality - it is hard on brass but if youi can afford to just toss the brass - great..

I shot Rotortuners AR-10 - first time shooting an auto-308 and was quite impressed as the first two rounds were 1/4" apart at 100 yards.

Unfortunately due to a mfg defect (WHich is now being corrected) - the third round went 4 inches high at 100...

In a combat situation it would seem like the way to go.

SKRanger told me in Mosul the M4 WAS the only practical sniper rifle...bolt gun just didn't work that well in a tight urban environment.

 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

A suppressor is a device that dissipate energy in a longer period of time.
Therefore, reducing noise,muzzle blast and recoil.
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

Holy shit. Google "how suppressors work" and read all day on it.
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Captain Kick-Ass</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Holy shit. Google "how suppressors work" and read all day on it. </div></div>

Screw that, I will just get another log in here and then ask that question with out using the search function....
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

So, how does a suppressor act as a brake if it does not divert the gases rearward or up? I'm baffled. </div></div>

You sir are a cunning linguist........ </div></div>

I figured someone would catch that. :)
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

Didn't we get into the gas diversion thing and a gas gun already once before.
smile.gif


remove the wrapping on a suppressor and you have a series of baffles inside, the gases are just contained and diverted differently.

It comes down to myths and legends and actually shooting them, and generally when designed correctly the don't reduce the velocity the actually increase the velocity... so it is again opposite the legend.
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

my Gemtech has a cold air intake a non-restrictive exhaust
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Captain Kick-Ass</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my Gemtech has a cold air intake a non-restrictive exhaust</div></div>

Ah, but did you get the Catalytic converter to make it Cali CARB legal?

 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

"Nick W.'s" original question pertained to the efficacy of an AR10 type weapon system for long range tactical competition.

(Please reference the thread previously linked above re marksmanship skills required to correctly drive a gas gun, which I too am incorporating by reference, in my response.)

Having said that, the answer is, "it depends".
It depends on the stage. range rules, comp. rules etc.
For, example, 'moving chaos', movers at 400yd.s and for multiple plates at 500 or for multiple shots on a LaRue from the tower, at R.O., it can be an advantage.
Where numerous targets are engaged from ONE location, the 20 round mag and autoloading can provide the shooter with quicker transition and back-on-target capability.
Under these type circumstances, I felt it gave me an advantage.
However, if one or two shots were taken from ONE location and then the shooter had to unload, stow the mag, lock the bolt to the rear, show clear and move to a new location, retrieve the mag, reinsert the mag and release the bolt, NO advantage (in terms of speed or reliability) is offered by a gas gun.

So..."it depends" on the C.O.F. and range rules, etc.

Having said all that I continue to persist in attempting to master my GAP built AR10's in .308 and .260 Rem.
They are both accurate enough, if I do my part...(SEE above re driving a gas-gun).

 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackstone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Nick W.'s" original question pertained to the efficacy of an AR10 type weapon system for long range tactical competition.

(Please reference the thread previously linked above re marksmanship skills required to correctly drive a gas gun, which I too am incorporating by reference, in my response.)

Having said that, the answer is, "it depends".
It depends on the stage. range rules, comp. rules etc.
For, example, 'moving chaos', movers at 400yd.s and for multiple plates at 500 or for multiple shots on a LaRue from the tower, at R.O., it can be an advantage.
Where numerous targets are engaged from ONE location, the 20 round mag and autoloading can provide the shooter with quicker transition and back-on-target capability.
Under these type circumstances, I felt it gave me an advantage.
However, if one or two shots were taken from ONE location and then the shooter had to unload, stow the mag, lock the bolt to the rear, show clear and move to a new location, retrieve the mag, reinsert the mag and release the bolt, NO advantage (in terms of speed or reliability) is offered by a gas gun.

So..."it depends" on the C.O.F. and range rules, etc.

Having said all that I continue to persist in attempting to master my GAP built AR10's in .308 and .260 Rem.
They are both accurate enough, if I do my part...(SEE above re driving a gas-gun).

</div></div>

Thanks to Blackstone and others who responded to my original questions.

For the competitors that are use to unloading between shooting positions at tactical LR rifle matches, you would have a heart attack if you saw a 3gun match. We run all over the place with loaded rifles. As long as the shooter does not break the 180deg. line with the rifle's muzzle and all rounds go down range into the impact area (rounds leaving the berm or hits within 3ft of the shooter in the ground are usually considered an unitentional discharge and result in a match disqualification), you are good to go. You are not even required to put your safety on between positions, but your finger must be off the trigger.

That said, LR Tact. Rifle Matches are a different game with different rules, which is why I asked my original questions......Sounds like both weapons systems will do the job as long as the shooter does theirs. Also looks like the gas gun may may be an advantage or disadvantage depending on rules and stage design. Thanks again.
Nick-
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

Good question, and I wish OP's question had been posted about 2-3 months ago. Having said that, like you I've been in IPSC/3-gun and am very comfortable with gas guns. However, I absolutely cannot stand to be limited in OAL....enter the 6.5 Creedmoor (lots of room in the DPMS mags)! After much deliberation, numerous on-line hours of parts searching and research...I decided to Hell with it. I have shot 700s since I was 13, have a 300WM and love them, but I really enjoy the AR platform and got used to driving one in my IPSC days. So WTF and why not? Bottom line- my last few parts packages should arrive this week. Got a Krieger 1-8 26" match tube (ouch on the cost), and should be burning powder by next weekend for chrono/load development. Naturally, I will post pics and targets if I can find my camera!
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

I've shot an AR in 6.5 Grendel with some success in tactical matches out to 600m.
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300jcc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good question, and I wish OP's question had been posted about 2-3 months ago. Having said that, like you I've been in IPSC/3-gun and am very comfortable with gas guns. However, I absolutely cannot stand to be limited in OAL....enter the 6.5 Creedmoor (lots of room in the DPMS mags)! After much deliberation, numerous on-line hours of parts searching and research...I decided to Hell with it. I have shot 700s since I was 13, have a 300WM and love them, but I really enjoy the AR platform and got used to driving one in my IPSC days. So WTF and why not? Bottom line- my last few parts packages should arrive this week. Got a Krieger 1-8 26" match tube (ouch on the cost), and should be burning powder by next weekend for chrono/load development. Naturally, I will post pics and targets if I can find my camera! </div></div>

300jcc- Please let us know how it works out. VERY interested. Thanks, Nick
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matches

I took my RRA .223 to the Reade winter match and have to say it was a blast. I can say I agree that most scoring shots at these matches are under 600 anyway. With a good shooting AR I think it could compete. It's big advantage is not working the bolt and rebuilding a position. Super fast follow up shots and more time to aim and squeeze.

I wouldn't mind trying it agian. My biggest problem was over dialing the wind thinking the bullet was going to be effected more than in was. Lost a good many points becouse of that.

JamieD
 
Re: Gas guns v. bolt guns in LR tact/sniper matche

NickW-
Roger that. I am down to The Final Wait.......the final box (stock) should be here today!